Mixed Guard tips?

[hewhowalks]

So, I've been playing the ever-present all-mech/vet guard list, but I'm getting bored with it. Not saying that I win a lot, quite the contrary, but just getting bored with bringing the almost identical army to the last three local tournaments. Looking for variety.

I'm really wanting to make a mixed foot/mech list where each unit type looks out for each other. Seems like this is the way IG should be played. Any tips on how to make a mixed list work?

I realize the usual idea is to go all mech or all foot in order to achieve target overload, but should this be considered mandatory in a competitive list?

The main plan I'm coming up with is a few combined infantry squads with special weapons walking in front of a few leman russes and sentinels. The foot keeps melee at bay from the russes while they in turn blow holes in the enemy. I picture the entire force constantly moving forward while some commissars and commissar lord (or maybe just a lord and Chenkov) keep everyone stubborn with high leadership.

The actual army list is still in the works, but I could post that in a few days if necessary. I'm trying to make a list that will scale from 1000 to 1850.

So, any more tips would be appreciated. Or if there is a previous thread I'm not aware of, a link would be great.

Thanks in advance.

[Commander Vimes]

I've had good success with a list at 1850 using two 30 man combined squads with power weapons, melta guns and autocannons, with another 30 man unit outflanking with Al'rahem. Backing that up is Straken in a chimera, the platoon command squads in chimeras with meltas or flamers, and a pair of Russes. It has over 100 infantry, achieving saturation there, and it has a respectable amount of armor; not so much that it will overwhelm opponents by itself, but enough that few lists can easily and quickly eliminate them. Most armies can't deal with that much armor and that many bodies that will never flee and will grind down many opponents with weight of numbers and buried power weapons.

I recommend against both Lord Commissars and Chenkov. Putting one commissar with each platoon is enough. Lord Commissars can be picked off in close combat, so they can't hide in the combined squads. The best bet for keeping them alive is putting them with a squad in a chimera, but it's still problematic to keep him within 6" of all of your combined squads. Chenkov suffers from a similar problem of vulnerability, though his leadership radius is a much more reliable 12". Normal Commissars with the platoons are almost impossible to pick off, and give you Stubborn ld. 9 with a re-roll, which is only about a 3% chance of failure.

If you plan to field a large number of combined infantry squad then Straken is an amazing boost for the army. He can issue orders like a normal command squad, (Bring it Down is great when firing meltas, or autocannons at vehicles) and Counter Attack is very helpful. Its difficult to get many charges with the combined squads because they are so slow, but Furious Charging with 16 Str. 4 Power weapon attacks and 50-odd normal Str. 4 attacks from 30 guys can mess up a lot of things.

[weeble1000]

I usually run something similar, but I don't usually bother with power weapons. Truly dedicated assault units will tear through a mess of guardsmen in a couple of turns because you're getting chewed up in both assault phases. 3 sgt power weapons and a power weapon on the commissar comes in at 40 points. Without str 4 you aren't going to be wounding MEQ that much. You aren't getting str 4 without a 90 point character and the charge. At that point you're investing heavily in a sub-par assault unit that you really want to be shooting with, especially if you're also paying for meltas and autocannons. I don't know the math on it off of the top of my head, but you're likely doing more damage staying out of assault range and hitting the offending unit with FRFSRF. 3 meltas and 6 autocannon shots wound on 2, there's a bolt pistol from the commissar, and then 54 lasgun shots, assuming everything is in range, but with 31 models, you can't guarantee everyone is going to be able to fight in melee either.

[Root]

I run hybrid guard quite often to much success. Personally I don't care for combined squads. To me, the best way to deal with enemy assault units is to shoot them frequently. Tying them up with an expensive blob squad doesn't let me do that. So I run plain old 10 man squads and hope they get shredded by the charge, leaving the opponent stuck out in the open to be shot. Its cheaper cuz you aren't buying commissars and power weapons and quite effective as long as you can avoid multiple squads getting charged. Granted it means putting more KP's on the board, but I've never thought that was a big deal. IG give up a lot of KP's no matter how you run em, fortunately they're pretty good at scoring them too...

[hewhowalks]

I was thinking about somthing similar to Root's comments. Blobs are useful for certain circumstances (going to ground in cover to hold an objective). However, I wondered if I should instead want multiple layers of 10-man units with no commisar?

The small unit would shoot until it gets assaulted in the enemy assault phase then either immediately die or fail a leadership and run away so that I could then shoot the assaulting enemy unit in my turn. It's a bad day when my infantry squad survives the initial assualt only to get killed at the end my own turn, allowing the enemy to charge yet another squad. The larger the blob, the more of a guessing game as to when that melee is going to end. Of course it also gives my mechanized units time to do a reverse advance (because guard do not retreat).

On the other hand, combining really makes the orders more effective. An extra 10 lasgun shots versus and extra 30...

Maybe a mechanized core, cushioned by a blob squad which is then cushioned by a few of these 10-man squads for assault denial? Or maybe that's too much cusion and not enough sledgehammer? Or maybe I'm overthinking it and need to just go play more games?

[I NoSe]

I've been running mixed guard for a while. I usually take one large platoon and two vet squads: one melta vet and the other with flamesr both in Chimeras. I run those two up the field with a Demolisher and a Hellhound the idea being that the Demolisher and meltavets pop things open for the other two to melt. The platoon squads get quite a bit with a flamer a vox and a melta bomb and if points allow krak grenades. My list is unusual in that there are no lascannons and no missile launchers all the anti tank is in that mechanized wing or on the regular infantry in the form of grenades. One last thing would be that Mortars and Ratlings are absolutely worth their points. You'll see what i mean the first time you pin half of your opponent's infantry.

[J. D.]

I've run a combined arms IG for a while now and find it is : A) more versatile and able to cope with various lists (all comers) better and B) prevents that glare you get when you lay down a dozen tanks and your opponent pouts through the game. That being said, I use a 30 man blob with Commissar(PW) and three sergeants(PW); troops with auocannons/ML and grenade launchers. They act as a screen for my Russes, who provide the bulk of my firepower. 2 or 3 vets and a commander in chimeras for mobility and a few speed bumps in the form of 10 man squads. Straken is awesome and can really surprise those not familiar with him. I usually run him on foot with a couple bodyguards. Marbo is also great if a bit random.
The only problems i've had are against 3x longfangs, but what won't struggle against that? Also, make sure your blobs can deal with dreadnoughts, as I've had them tie up my blobs in CC.

[weeble1000]

I run my infantry squads separated. I also find that splitting them up is usually more effective for the reasons root stated. That said, I always put 1 commissar in every platoon. I like the models, its thematic for guard, and it gives you the option to blob if a mission or opponent calls for it. You can blob without a commissar, but it invites trouble.
I've been playing with the details of my tournament list for a while, but it is based on a core of 8 to 10 infantry squads in 2 or 3 platoons. I run a single melta vet squad in a chimera, meltas on the CCS, and flamers on the platoon command squads, all in chimeras. I've found that 4 flamers from a chimera is a good answer to many problems, and having mobile scoring units is helpful. I also run at least 2 russes and often two vendettas with embarked infantry squads.

I like having a decent number of tanks on the table, and chimeras are well worth the 55 points, even if they're empty. On most tables, a LRBT can threaten most of the board tucked in a corner protecting its rear armor from outflankers and deep strikes. But like any russ, the beauty of the machine is that you can take it into your opponents face if you want to, and 10 man infantry squads are a good way to give it an extra layer of protection and keep part of your troops moving toward objectives.

[hewhowalks]

Thanks for all the comments, I'm taking them to heart. I know this isn't a list build thread, but here's what I've come up with.

Last night it was announced that the next local tournament is 1500 points and all scenarios will be primary objective, secondary kill points.

Command Squad
chimera
vox
plasma guns

Platoon Command
chimera
las cannon
vox

30-man blob
flamers
autocannons
commisar
power weap x4

30-man blob
flamers
missile launchers
commisar
power weap x4

Mortar squad (just because I had the points left, hoping to pin something)

2 vet squads (unsure on wargear, they are just meant to go out and die)

3 vanilla russes

I'm thinking I can place my command chimeras in the middle with a blob on each side and vet squads out in front as bait/speed bump/assault denial. Depending on terrain, I can stretch my blobs out to get my Missile and Auto Cannons in good spots. Leman Russes set behind to lumber and shoot.

Are two blobs too much at 1500 points? Should I get rid of one blob and create some other options with the points?

I'm wondering about the heavy weapons attached to my blobs. Seems like it's wasted points if I'm trying to move my way to an objective. In the past I've always bought the HW squads separate so they can shoot every round, but then they suffer from low wounds and low leadership.

My forseen problem is that I while I can creep slowly across the board, I don't have anything for grabbing distant objectives. The platoon comand could maybe motor to one in the late game. I guess maybe the idea is to grab the close objectives then use the Russes to deny the distant objectives?

[weeble1000]

First off, you're limited to 6 infantry squads per platoon, so you'll either have to take a second platoon, and thus a second platoon command squad, or drop an infantry squad, unless you've got two of those platoon command squads in the list and I misread it.

I usually don't take voxes, but I don't have anything against them, apart from the silliness of the rules for them. A re-roll on leadership checks for orders can be useful, but I prefer to spend the points elsewhere.

If you want squads to run out and die, I think it would be more cost effective to use plain-jane infantry squads. You don't have to put all squads in a platoon into one blob, so you have the room to take two more infantry squads, either one in both platoons or two in one platoon, assuming you have two separate platoons. Vets are useful because they can carry three special weapons and they have BS 4, so people like them for meltas and plasmas, but I'm sure you know that from running a chimera vet list.

If you want a unit to take back field objectives, you could consider a Valk chassis with either a special weapon squad or an infantry squad. The Valk can scout, outflank, and deep strike. They make attractive targets, so people like to shoot them down if they are on the table too long, but with favorable reserve rolls you can roll on late in the game, move flat out for cover, and then drop a squad pretty much wherever you want on the next turn. If you're feeling ballsy, you can also use grav chute insertion to claim an objective and continue moving to contest a second one.

I don't think you'll find that three russes is enough to clear off an objective on their own. They can do a great deal of damage, but some bad scatters will leave you in trouble. And if the objective is somewhere that the enemy unit can claim cover, it'll be tough to oust a decent squad with three battle cannons, especially if they go to ground. Now, if your opponent is of a mind to leave part of his army behind on an objective and push the rest towards yours, three russes in your back field will certainly give him/her some trouble. Even so, I think that you're going to want to get some units over there to clean off stragglers and even take the objective yourself.

[hewhowalks]

Thanks Weeble. Since writing the first list, I've found a lot of good stuff on the 3++ website that said very similar things regarding blobs, bubblewrapping, and hybrid lists. I've theory-hammered it to death, now I need to get some games in!

[Root]

I prefer my heavy weapons teams for the bulk of the shooting duties. I run my company command squad with a lascannon and a standard. They deploy next to the big guns to give them orders and a re-roll on morale. HWTs die easy but the IG should be able to eliminate the threats to them quickly. With the bulk of my heavy weapons in dedicated teams my infantry squads are unburdened and thus free to run around the table raising hell and getting in the opponent's way. You will always be reluctant to move a unit with a heavy weapon, so all my units who are meant to move don't have them. Combined with two vet squads in Chimeras, a platoon commander on foot, and a special weapons team in a valkyrie means I have numerous mobile scoring units, something a lot of IG lists lack.