Deathwing as Troops?

[Moros]

Hey guys, this question has come up and In my opinion is a very interesting thought. I have noticed that a lot of people are making Dark Angels lists that have 6 Deathwing Squads as their troops choice by taking Belial. However, I am not sure this is legal based on the codex.

Under Belial's entry it says that, "Deathwing Terminator squads may be treated as troops as well as an Elites choice."

Last time I checked "as well as" means, in addition to. Therefore, my question is this... have people been playing illegal lists when they take 6 squads of Deathwing? Technically they aren't converted to troops... they are troops AND elites, making their maximum 3 for an army. They never lose their Elite status, they just gain the ability to become scoring based on the wording.

I really don't see a way around this as there is nothing in the FAQ or anything saying you're actually allowed to take more than 3 squads of them.

Have people really been playing illegally all this time? Thoughts?

[Tynskel]

'as well as' does not have a strict definition, and therefore is subject to interpretation. And in most cases, that interpretation is subject to a situational/contextual basis.

[Lerra]

There is an FAQ somewhere that clarifies this. You can take Deathwing squads in either Troops or Elites slots, so a maximum of 9 squads per army. Deathwing taken as an elites choice are not scoring, though.

[Moros]

Actually, there isn't an FAQ anywhere that clarifies this that we have found (post if if you find it) .... AND the definition of "as well as" is not vague at all... as well as means "in addition to" there is noway around that... less you feel like making up your own rules

[gwensdad]

It's sort of like have a codex chapter with a captain on bike makes bikers troop and FA choices. You can take 6 scoring bike squads and 3 non-scoring ones.

[Moros]

Yeah, cept thats not the rules... just like the DA psychic hood does the entire board and codex ones don't... you're making assumptions about something you have no proof for. DA do have different rules than codex chapters, and you can't just do something that they do cause you feel like it

Believe me, I play Angels and I don't want to know I've been cheating... if somebody has some actual proof as to how you can do this, let me know. As of right now, I really don't see how you can drop the "Elite" status ever. You can add "Troop" on but really can't remove the Elite tag :(

[Gotthammer]

An article on the GW site has an army list with Deathwing in troop slots (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=900004&pIndex=4&aId=2600030&multiPageMode=true&start=5).

[Moros]

Well that's something at least... but its really not enough to justify it imo. That guy has no grounds for calling them troops either, he's just a website editor.

[He who shall not be named]

All i can say is "really?" it says right in the codex that an army containing Belial makes "deathwing terminators Troops As well as an elites choice." What grounds do you have that after years of playing deathwing that Now it was all a lie? i mean come on dude.

[Moros]

I'm not arguing they aren't troops, I'm arguing that they are still elites... and you can't have more than 3 elites.

What grounds do you have that they lose their elite status?

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Well Grand Tournaments, GW and every other type of official system accepts it that they can become Troops and Elites. What units are both at the same time? Apply the old Tyranid Warrior system to this and it'll make more sense. (Up for corrections)

[Gotthammer]

They keep it, and gain Troops as well, so you can choose which slot to put them in.

[AngelsofDeath]

It has the same meaning as in any codex that allows you to take an HQ choice or Named Character, and due to that choice it allows you to take a certain unit that is usually not taken as a troop choice to be fielded in that troop slot.

BA codex: Dante-In an army that includes Commander Dante, Sanguinary Guard are Troop choices. The new Grey Knights book has alot of character that can field elite units as troop choices. A regular Space Marine Captain on a Bike can take Bike squads of at least 5 models as troop choices. The new Dark Eldar has a character that can take all sky boards as troops. The bottom line is that if a unit can be selected as a troop choice under the standard mission selection you may field 6 troop choices.

As far as what I see your pretty defensive over your post. You ask a question and get mad cause you do not like the answer that was given. I know everyone does not know everything and some answers may not be totally correct or correct at all. The reason I post on this forum is to ask questions from a great more experienced gaming community other than my local store and to read a postive discussion on the post.

Sounds like "You Mad Bro?" cause a Deathwing army layed a smack down on ya.......

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

This man I agree with... Exactly why I post too, it's nice to hear another persons opinion every now and then, especially with the experience of the people on here (/woman. No sexism needed :L)

[Sisiutl]

You are pretty dedicated to being wrong. They can be taken as a troops choice AS WELL AS an elite choice. Meaning they can be taken as either the troops or elites spot in the FOC. It doesn't mean the unit itself is both.

[Brass Scorpion]

Unbelievable. The stuff I see on the Internet regarding Warhammer never ceases to amaze me.

[Tynskel]

Unbelievable. The stuff I see on the Internet regarding Warhammer never ceases to amaze me.

obviously, you need to spend more time on the Internet!

[AngelsofDeath]

Unbelievable. The stuff I see on the Internet regarding Warhammer never ceases to amaze me.

I think that GW leaves alot to personal interpretation as far as 40K goes. The fluff and back ground is left open a bit for people to make thier own story, and in doing so it lends to people doing the same with rules at times. In defense of interpretation the rules at times may be vague or another codex may come along that affects a specific action/rule of another.

Point being in this case the idea that they are viewed as Troops is being overshadowed by the word Elite. I could see one situation where they might be fielded as both. If a mission changed the force Organisation chart and you could only take 2 troops as the attacker in old rules books missions. Which if I remember correct was when the great Dark Angels codex was written.

[fade_74]

Is there any other situation like this in warhammer 40k? Is there any other unit that costs you two FO slots? If there is I don't think I have ever seen it. So I would say that since NO other unit takes up 2 slots....and they have played it that way in White Dwarf....they are just troops...or just elites...not both. I mean seriously, they wrote the list before troops were the only scoring models right? So..think about this now....why would they make something troops AND elites back then? The only thing that would do would be to limit the amount of troops choices you got. It would give you NO advantage to do this (in past editions).

If my logic is flawed, please let me know, I don't play deathwing...never have. If you are going to tell me that though...please explain why, starting with why in 3rd edition you would make something cost an elites and a troops. Also list the advantages that would give you.

[MasterGideon]

The exact wording is has follows: "If belial is in your army, Deathwing Terminators Squads may be treated as troop choice as well as an elite choice

The key wording here is Choice, you can choose to take them as troops choices (6) as well as an elite (3) choices.

I dont see how any way anyone could argue that 3 is the max.

MasterGideon

[Xenith]

Op is incorrect.

By his reading, taking a master of the forge in C:SM makes the dreads count as elite OR heavy. If He made them count as elite AND heavy, he would be the worst character ever.

[gcsmith]

:P the person who posted uve never been so amazed obv not met my mate who was convinced that BA tech marine servitors could take jump packs or that termi sergants are the same as termies so can take the assault cannon with their power sword, despite having different unit title. :) he argued it sed 1 terminator and he is a TERMINATOR sergent.
However terminator is listed diff to terminator sergent :)

He is also the owner of a FW dread with GK power weapon arm and frag launcher not accepting the Libby dred couldnt take the FL till the FAQ. :)

Oh and OP wrong, its poorly worded i give you that. Due to poor grammer, but intention is 6 units :)

[Tynskel]

That's a unique interpretation of the rules.

[gcsmith]

which one? :p
hes also started GK now and has master crafted pyscannons in each of his termie squads :p