Sangunary Guard Question

[Warpath]

Ok, so, i have been discussing about the master-crafted power weapons on the Sanguinary Guard.

The unit is composed by 5 guys with 5 master crafted power weapons. Does that mean that i re-roll 5 dices when i attack in CC with them or do i have to roll separatley for each individual mini?

My idea is that i get 5 re-rolls, but my friends say otherwise.

I would really apreciate your thoughts on this subject. Thank you in advance.


Warpath.

[Archon Charybdis]

You'll have to roll out each model's attacks individually, or use different colored dice for each model. There's a difference between rerolling 5 dice and 5 guys being able to each reroll one miss. If one model in a squad misses 3 times, but everyone else hits with all their attacks, that model is still only granted one reroll.

[Tynskel]

different colored dice works well. The same issue comes up when you are used 'vulkanized' thunderhammer terminators.

[DarkLink]

Right. You do not get 5 rerolls. You get one reroll per guy. There's a difference.

[lobster-overlord]

Is there a place where this is spelled out in the BRB or FAQ? I would like to point it out to a friend myself.

John m.

[Tynskel]

Read the rule for master crafted- it is in the codex.

[Archon Charybdis]

If you're looking for a rule that explicitly states "When rolling a unit of master-crafted weapons, roll each model individually," it doesn't exist. It doesn't need to though, it simply follows from the master-crafted rules. Like everyone's mentioned, re-rolling any five dice out of the whole unit's attacks is not the same as allowing each model to re-roll one of its misses.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Seriously, how is this hard to work out? The "master-crafted" quality doesn't "buy" you a number of re-rolls the squad can use. Each guy gets his one re-roll and that's it. So, if he misses the first hit, he gets a single re-roll and no more. If he hits, he doesn't need the re-roll, and it is "lost" (although not so much lost as not needed).

You roll to hit. Pick up any that miss and roll once again; count up the hits. That's it; you're done, no more rolling.

So for example, I roll to hit with 5 guys. I hit once, and the other four miss. I re-roll those four, and get two hits, two misses. Total = Three hits, two misses. End of rolling.

Or: I roll to hit with five guys; four hit. The miss rolls his re-roll and misses again. That's it; four hit, one miss, no more re-rolls.

It's not hard.

[Xenith]

You roll to hit. Pick up any that miss and roll once again; count up the hits. That's it; you're done, no more rolling.

So for example, I roll to hit with 5 guys. I hit once, and the other four miss. I re-roll those four, and get two hits, two misses. Total = Three hits, two misses. End of rolling.

Or: I roll to hit with five guys; four hit. The miss rolls his re-roll and misses again. That's it; four hit, one miss, no more re-rolls.

It's not hard.

You have this very wrong. Master crafted means only one reroll to hit.

Each models dice must be rolled separately, as each only gets one reroll. If they charged, roll for first SG - 1 hit, 2 misses, reroll 1 miss. Move on to next SG. repeat.

[lobster-overlord]

Or have different color dice for each of the models... much faster (and not a problem if you're like me and have a HUGE die collection.) :-)

[sps62487]

Now if you had a chaplain/reclusiarch in the unit and charged you could re-roll all :eek:. But the best thing to do is have different dice for each model. Or do it separately.

[Nabterayl]

It sounds like you might need help explaining this to somebody else (an opponent, perhaps? :p) who is playing it wrong, rather than having it wrong yourself. If that's the case, here's what you want to be sure to point out:

Page 57 of the Blood Angels codex says a master crafted weapon allows the bearer to re-roll one failed roll to hit when using the weapon. So it's very clear that each individual Sanguinary Guard is allowed one re-roll.

Next you need to prove to your friend that rolling all the attacks and re-rolling five misses is not a shortcut for the real way.

This is easily done, since if it were a true shortcut, every possible scenario would come out the same no matter which way you did it. Hence, if there is even one scenario we can construct where doing it the long way and doing it the "shortcut" way are different, it isn't a true shortcut.

Others have already pointed out one example that proves they aren't the same, so I'll just add another one:

Five Sanguinary Guard charge. Each has three attacks. Guard One misses all three. Guard Two misses twice. Guard Three misses once. Guards Four and Five hit with all three. How many re-rolls should the whole squad get? Obviously three, because only three "bearers" had misses to re-roll.

If we do it the long way - rolling three dice for each Guard (either five sets of different colored dice or three dice five times) - we will be able to see that we only get three re-rolls. This is the correct result.

If we do it the "shortcut" way - rolling fifteen identically colored dice - we will see six misses, but have no way of knowing that actually, only three "bearers" missed. If we were to re-roll five misses, that would be the wrong result. Alternatively, we could guess, which is also obviously wrong.

Hence, rolling all fifteen attacks with identical dice is obviously not a shortcut, and thus wrong. Whether you do it with differently colored dice or rolling individually for each Guard, you must differentiate each Guard's attacks to get the right result.

[Wildeybeast]

Captain Shrike has a similar issue with this. He has a pair of mastercrafted lightning claws, but the FAQ makes clear that despite having 2 mastercrafted wepaons, he still only gets one re-roll. So, as has already been said, either roll each model seperately or use different colured dice for each one. Just make sure that each model only get's one re-roll.