BoLS Community? Please help!

[Skragger]

Hello! Firstly, I'd like to apologize for the length of this post, I have a bunch of stuff to ask, but if I split it across mutliple threads I'll just end up confusing myself, I'm like that. :cool:

Let me give you some background: When I was 8 I picked up my first box of space marines. I had no idea who they were, or what Warhammer was at the time, but damn they were cool. 15 years later I've played about every game GW has put out (with the exception of LotR) and I've sunk a small fortune into TCC games like Pokemon and Magic. I few years back I realized that what I wanted the most from all this, was to help spread this game to new players, and immerse myself more in the game, my goal was clear: Have my own FLGS.

Over the last 6 months I've really been pushing towards making that goal a reality. I've contacted suppliers for various games (GW, WotC, Privateer Press, etc, etc), been putting together a business plan, saving my pennies and my dimes, all that fun stuff. But lately I've been crunching a lot of numbers, and looking at costs, and now everything is being cast into doubt.

This is where I need your help BoLS friends. Do any of you own FLGS? Or know people who own FLGS? How do you pull it all together to cover lease/wages etc? What kind of income can be pulled in? How well do events work (i,e tournaments, FNM). What trends do you see developing in the gaming world? What to get, what to avoid? If you/your friends don't feel comfortable putting this in the post, you/they can e-mail me at [email protected]. My store would stock all the stables of the hobbies: Warhammer, Privateer Press (Hordes, Warmachine), TCG/CCGs (like Pokemon and Magic), Pen and Paper Games (like D&D, GURPS), etc. We'd be focusing a lot on events, and we'd have at least 4 tables. Things like tournaments, seminars on how to paint/model/deck buildings/how-to-play, painting contests, FNM, D&D sessions, free play space, all that fun jazz. I've heard TCGs are a real pot of gold.

For you non-FLGS owners, what would you like to see in your FLGS? Do you feel that a brick and mortar store is still a valid concept? What would you like to see your local store sell/host as events? If you live in Southwestern Ontario (Waterloo/Kitchener) do you see anything happening in this region? Anything you'd like to happen?

Please help. This is something that's literally been keeping me awake at night, and to be honest, the idea of seeing my dream go down the pipes begins to make me feel honestly depressed. This is my dream, but I need your help.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

Apollogies for the long response I was bored in class. Now this was a few years back, but a buddy of mine started a comic/game store and he basically ran it into the ground, not because of sales or bad budgeting, but becuase he got lazy. Running any business requires dedication and motivation. I too have a similar dream in mind when my kids get a little older. You probably already know this stuff but i like the thread and want to help. A few aspects I believe are important:

1. Location, Location, Location!
Ideally you want a mall or big shopping center. Somewhere that has a lot of foot traffic. This can be expensive lease-wise but in the long run it will be better. Also maybe near a park or school where alot of kids can walk to or see everyday. Somewhere in town or city, even if its just a little out of town i think will have a negative effect.

2. Advertising.
This can be tricky. At the location you obviosly want the biggest sign possible. I cant tell you how many times I couldnt find a game/comic store becuase they have a tiny window sign. Also if had a store I would be waking the streets handing out flyers and talking to kids and there parents. Get into the communtiy with a positive spin of fun, learning, and friends.

3. Dedication
If you run a game store i wouldnt count on playing to many games. you have to look at it as a full time job. getting up early, going home late, creating events, running events, making a payroll, making a profit! I'm not saying dont have fun, just make sure its not to the detriment of the business

4. Customer Service,
Too many times i been to a FLGS and ask a question and the guy working there lifts his head from a book or game and says" meh. its over there." Be a salesman, be accessibleto every customer from 8 to 80. Alot of business owners become aloof and elitists( kinda like eldar:)) they only talk to the people they know and this is bad cause then you get the same ten people sitting around, talking BS, and not spending any money. you want your store to be the Mecca for the kids and parents of the area(especially the parents, they have the money!) . Run it like a community center.

5. Events
I personaly in my area would like to see more tournaments. this gets the competive juices going especially if there a cool prizes. most small local tournaments I have particiapted in, are fun but with little reward. I mean you spend $5-10 entry and 8 hours playing your butt off and to win a $5 poster and a slap on the back or a rare model you cant even use. Also dont be afraid for customers to create and run their own events, it take alot of burden of your shoulders. Low risk, high reward.

This may not answer your questions specifically but all my comments I hope will lead to a bigger and better bottom line.

Just some food for thought. I hope this helps and dont ever give up. Us dreamers need to stick together. Good Luck

[DrLove42]

1. Location, Location, Location!
Ideally you want a mall or big shopping center. Somewhere that has a lot of foot traffic. This can be expensive lease-wise but in the long run it will be better. Also maybe near a park or school where alot of kids can walk to or see everyday. Somewhere in town or city, even if its just a little out of town i think will have a negative effect.


Being an independant folk person in another country I can't advise on much. But my only advice it like Brother Wolf says above...location is key. In my old home town theres a great group of gamers and an amazing GW. But its inside a indoor shopping centre/mall. Therefore they HAVE to shut at 6 every day, no exceptions, which means they are one of the few GW's I know that don't have an evening club.

So outdoors is best! Build the community and they will come!

Also don't buy any LotR stock. You'll never move that s***

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

I agree skragger. I should have thought of that sorry. In a mall you are at the mercy of mall management which sucks. Plus most malls makes you sign minimum of a 5-7 year lease contract. I would lease/own a space where you could dictate your own hours.

[Skragger]

Thank you for the advise! Our goal is to open for August 2012, so a lot of the location stuff we have is subject to change. Kitchener-Waterloo is definitly a univeristy town (two major universities and a collage-soon-to-be-univeristy), we have a population of around 250,000 and we're growing like mad. Our location was right in the downtown core area (around $2000/mo for lease), but the only viable location is inside a shopping mall with 9-9 as the hours. Again, this may change.

Dedication is something I've definitly got for this. Its sticky cause I'd be working two jobs for the first while (getting the store starting, and working my current job to help suppliment income while the store starts). But as I mentioned before, my biggest concern is consistant income. The store is a huge financial burden to hold if its not holding up its end.

With events, GW takes good care of you for warhammer stuff. They offer $150USD for prize support every quarter, so you can get some decent loot if you know what you're looking for. I'm definitly wanting to focus on events, but the concern, again, becomes bringing enough interested people in to cover the cost of overhead.

And thank you for the support Brother Love! Its hard keeping the dreams alive when a) internet stores are crushing us brick and mortar..ers.. and b) economy bites like a champ and c) you work at an insurance company.

And yeah.. LotR.. the only other (viable) FLGS in the area stocked it when it came out.. they have to dust it off regularly..

Any more advise anyone can offer, again.. anything. Especially from FLGS who have knowledge of what sells and how to keep overhead down/under control

[Fellend]

As a student, most of my friends are students and hell, most people I know are either students or military a tip I can give you is to give some kind of bonus towards us.
It doesn't really matter what it is. You know that 5% discount which makes it about half a dollar cheaper than buying it somewhere else. Yeah, that means we spend 3 times as much money and time on that place because it supports us students. The logic is ... I don't know, You scratch our back, we scratch yours.

Basically, if you have access to such a large group of people (who lets face it, either spends money on beer or toys) get on their good side. It'll be worth it.

[Forever_Bunny]

I don't have my store yet, still waiting for funding, but I thought I would share some resources with you.

1. The business of gaming retail is a column at RPG.net written by someone who has run his own gaming store, unfortunately is all about USA gaming stores, but most of it can be used up here in Canada. http://www.rpg.net/columns/list-column.phtml?colname=businessofgamingretail

2. A book call "Why We Buy: The Science Of Shopping" is a great book to get in the right mindset for opening your store. You can buy this book at Chapters or you can order it form Amazon.

3. This website http://www.ic2v.com is a business web-zine for the gaming and hobby industry. It has tons of articles on coming trends and new product releases, plus actual industry stats that you can use for your business plan. Only downsized about this site is that if you want the stats you ether visit it every day or you need to subscribe to it printed magazine that come out every 2ndQ and 4thQ. Since the stats on the site are buried in their archives.

I hope this helps.

One more thing there's an organization in the States that helps gaming and hobby store become more profitable or tactics to "just keep the doors form closing". Their call GAMA or Gaming Manufacturing Association http://www.gama.org/ you do need to become a member first before they'll help but the membership allow you to get into GAMA's Trade Shown and Orgins both are setup so that retail store can meet publisher and see what their planning to release that year. Mostly every publisher is their but GW isn't since they have their own event call GamesDay.

Sorry, about long post...So much info to give.:D

[Grailkeeper]

The Main FLGS in my area is run by a guy called Martin. He seriously cuts his wages bill by getting nerds to work for free. You'd be seriously surprised how many gamers will work for free in exchange for either a discount or even just a place to go. I was surprised anyway.

[Skragger]

The Main FLGS in my area is run by a guy called Martin. He seriously cuts his wages bill by getting nerds to work for free. You'd be seriously surprised how many gamers will work for free in exchange for either a discount or even just a place to go. I was surprised anyway.

Really? Hmmm.. I never thought of that! And of course, the holy grail of employees - the girl gamer...

[Lemt]

A way to organise tournaments for wargames is this. Charge an entry fee (say, 5-10$). Then, instead of giving out a fixed price like some mini or another, give ALL the earnings as in-store points.
For example, 10 players participate in a 40k tournament, with a 10$ entry fee. That's 100$. Give 50$ to the winner, 30$ to second place and 20$ to third place. But instead of handing out cash, award 50 "points" to the winner, etc. Each point is a 1$ discount to anything in the store, so you can buy something that costs 35$ for 20 points and 15$, or with 35 points, or whatever. Points aren't lost, and are added to a player's account until he spends them.

What you are doing in reality is several things.
-You make sure you "sell" 100$ or so (depending on how many regular players you have and how much the participation to tournaments cost). Even if it takes them a few months to spend the points, you already have the cash! And when a player suddenly takes home 150$ worth of miniatures he'll feel like he's getting something for free, although he probably spent more than that in fees. So he's likely to come back for more.
-You make the shop look busy, always good for business.
-You don't force useless prices on people. Let them choose what they want!


Also, give the points a catchy name. "Thrones" would be cool if it's mostly a 40k store, but otherwise you want to be more broad. So if the store is called "Skragger Wargames" you could call the points "Skraggers", or whatever.

[Skragger]

A way to organise tournaments for wargames is this. Charge an entry fee (say, 5-10$). Then, instead of giving out a fixed price like some mini or another, give ALL the earnings as in-store points.
For example, 10 players participate in a 40k tournament, with a 10$ entry fee. That's 100$. Give 50$ to the winner, 30$ to second place and 20$ to third place. But instead of handing out cash, award 50 "points" to the winner, etc. Each point is a 1$ discount to anything in the store, so you can buy something that costs 35$ for 20 points and 15$, or with 35 points, or whatever. Points aren't lost, and are added to a player's account until he spends them.

What you are doing in reality is several things.
-You make sure you "sell" 100$ or so (depending on how many regular players you have and how much the participation to tournaments cost). Even if it takes them a few months to spend the points, you already have the cash! And when a player suddenly takes home 150$ worth of miniatures he'll feel like he's getting something for free, although he probably spent more than that in fees. So he's likely to come back for more.
-You make the shop look busy, always good for business.
-You don't force useless prices on people. Let them choose what they want!


Also, give the points a catchy name. "Thrones" would be cool if it's mostly a 40k store, but otherwise you want to be more brad. So if the store is called "Skragger Wargames" you could call the points "Skraggers", or whatever.


I really like this idea.. Something like "skulls" (maybe I can get GW to send me all their old skullz stickers....) .. shiney! :D Thanks for the idea!

[Grailkeeper]

With a discount they basically pay to work for you.

Running a game store is a lot like running a pub in terms of how you treat your clientele. Youmay find you get a lot of regulars. Some of these may spend a fortune, but others may just sit there all day not buying anything or doing all that much. Which is ok if they are your friends and are sound, but some of them may be very obnoxious. Be prepared to ban people you don't like.

Card games will make you a fortune- but the people who play card games in my expierence tend to be much more obnoxious and smell worse- more annoying to people who walk in off the street and others.

When Martin opened his stoe he had the main games everyone played- 40k and fantasy. He also made a point of trying to get in as many smaller games as possible. Some of them really took off, but 70-80% of them didn't and were sold off at a loss.

(unlike a pub) If you have a lot of children coming in when they reach pubesence they they tend to get very annoying, have some means of dealing with this.

TLDR
Treat your customers the way a pub would.

[Grailkeeper]

I forgot to mention he did have paid employees at the start, but when he had established himself a bit that was when he was able to enlist volunteers.


If thres an area with a gamers club you could let them play in you shop free at teh start as a way of getting
people in

This is the Facebook page of the FLGS in Dublin. Martin only knows me to see so I'm pretty much a stranger to him but you might be able to get in touch for advice. If you don't feel like talking to a stranger half way across the world you might at least get some Ideas you can steal. http://www.facebook.com/people/GamersWorld-Dublin/100001139769137

[HsojVvad]

Didn't you make a thread about opening a store in the Kitchener area a few weeks ago? The reason I am is if it wasn't you, then someone else with his friends, (you didn't mention if you were doing this with friends or not) is doing the same thing for about 2012 as well. This seems like a coinicedence if it wasn't you.

I will try and remember what I said before.

As someone said here before, location location location. I don't think you really need to be in a big mall with a big lease. If anything you should be seeing Games Workshop getting out of the big malls and going into secluded places. I don't suggest this at all, but I don't think you need a Square One either.

What you need is a place where lots of people can go to easily. Is there plenty of parking? Is thier a bus route? Is it easy to get to?

I am in Brantford, and we had 3 gamine stores, and they all closed down 3 or 4 years ago. I don't think you can buy anything in Brantford anymore for miniturue gaming now, so I have to go to Hamilton now. I herd there are stores in Cambridge. As I said in the other post, call Black Knight games and Bayshore Hobbies. They are the only stores I know of. I herd there is one or two maybe more in Cambridge, and herd there is a store or two in Kitchener. Call them up. Maybe they will give you some advice and help you, then again, they don't want competion so expect them to decline and not talk to you at all. What is the worst they are going to say? No? At least you tried.

So being in Brantford and it's dead here that I know off, and there is already stores in Hamilton and Cambridge area, the market is pretty full, you have some steep competion.

What can you do to make yourself different from the other stores? I love Bayshore Hobbies because they help me out. They save copies for me for what ever I want. They knew I wanted the Battletech Box set and saved it for me, without me even asking them to do so, because they knew how bad I wanted it and it was sold out the same day. That is great customer service.

There is a store in Brantford, which just sells comics, but when I went in, the person couldn't even be bothered to look at me in the eyes when I asked about thier 40K stuff. So I never went back to them. Now they just sell comics and cards an no more 40K stuff. Take that for what it's worth.

Are you going to be a gaming store or playing store? Black Knight in Hamilton has a few tables and do both. I just wished they offered cheaper prices but they didn't so I just go to GW in Burlington (while the store was there) because of thier customer service. I am glad I found Bayshore Hobbies now, since that will be my place to do shopping now.

AS was said before, it's a full time job, more so because you are the owner. You will not be having fun. I mean you are not there to play and have fun. You have to give all your time to your customers when ever they want to ask a quesiton. I went to a store about 2 or 3 years ago, to Heavy support games. The owner was nice. I think I bothered him but he never showed it and was so polite to me. I drove over an hour to buy Space Hulk. He sold things at 30% off but now it's only 20% off. So make sure what ever you do, don't change your discount because now it's not worth the drive for me to drive over 2 hours there and back now for just 20% discount.

When I went there the first time, I planned only on Space Hulk but he gave me such good deals, I spent $200 for $300 worth of product. So great deals you will need to keep people coming back. Can you afford this? Rememeber discounts cost into your profit.

If you can't give discounts, like Black Knight games what can you offer me then? What will bring me back to your store? You should be selling chips, pop, water so people will not leave your store if you are gaming. Maybe for people who buy from your store, you give them free bottles of water and pop for a 50 cents instead of a buck. Remember you are not making money off food, but to keep them in your store so they don't leave. You never know if they leave for a bite to eat will they come back?

You will need events. Can you do run an event and also run your store at the same time? Can you afford to hire people to help you out?

Alot of stores are closed on Mondays and Tuesdas. Will you do so as well? They are really slow days. You maybe closed those days but you still have to pay the rent for them. What will you do if people just come into your store to game but don't buy anything? This is a catch 22. You want people coming in and you don't want a bad name for kicking people out because they are using your rescources and not giving you any money in buying anything from you.

Sorry for long post, just trying to help out a fellow BoLS memeber. :D

[Skragger]

You're absolutely right, I did make a similar post a few weeks back. This one's different in the sense that I'm trying to figure out whether a hobby store is financially feasable, and how I can make that happen. Good memory on you though!

What we're hoping to do is do that mixture, where we'll have a nice place to play with pretty terrain, and host a lot of events as well. As you mentioned, there are two game stores in the area: J&J's, which offers low prices but no place to play, and their hours are terrible (not even open on sundays) and their location is in the middle of nowhere (hard to get to), and Phoenix Games, which is in the middle of Downtown Kitchener (rough area) and their prices are really high. They have some tables, but I've never heard of them really hosting any events. The owners are d*cks too lol. So there's a bit of a "friendly place to play and get loot" gap.

I suppose for me, if people want to come in and just play, not buy anything, I'm generally cool with it as long as they behave/smell good. Its not like I have to pay more for them to be there, and they're not hurting anyone by being there, and they'll spread the word to their gaming buddies, who will buy stuff later (I hope).

GW's pretty good when it comes to events, the account manager pretty much sets everything up for you, you pretty much just need to be there. Its great from what I can see.

And all the help is appreciated.. long post or not! :D

[HsojVvad]

You're absolutely right, I did make a similar post a few weeks back. This one's different in the sense that I'm trying to figure out whether a hobby store is financially feasable, and how I can make that happen. Good memory on you though!

Usually my memory is horrilbe. :p


What we're hoping to do is do that mixture, where we'll have a nice place to play with pretty terrain, and host a lot of events as well. As you mentioned, there are two game stores in the area: J&J's, which offers low prices but no place to play, and their hours are terrible (not even open on sundays) and their location is in the middle of nowhere (hard to get to), and Phoenix Games, which is in the middle of Downtown Kitchener (rough area) and their prices are really high. They have some tables, but I've never heard of them really hosting any events. The owners are d*cks too lol. So there's a bit of a "friendly place to play and get loot" gap.

So you will need a good location. I have no idea what rent is, so I am guessing it could be $1500-$2000 a month in rent. Then you have hydro or electricity costs, so I would be guessing without knowing anyting you will need to be spending at least $2500 if not more a month in just expenses to keep the store up and running.

Do you really think you will be selling this much inventory each and every month just to be breaking at Zero?


I suppose for me, if people want to come in and just play, not buy anything, I'm generally cool with it as long as they behave/smell good. Its not like I have to pay more for them to be there, and they're not hurting anyone by being there, and they'll spread the word to their gaming buddies, who will buy stuff later (I hope).

This is all fine and dandy, but rememeber YOU will be paying for people to play for free. You will be dishing out $2500min a month for costs just for them and you to play games. Can you really afford this? Of course this goes down with sales, but I don't see in this area and seeing how stuff are still on the shelves, that you will be selling all this. Maybe magic cards, but still I don't think you can make a living or keep a stor open with magic cards. I could be wrong because, What do I know?

That is good you are doing your reserach. Keep it up and let me know how it goes. I would come up to visit you.


GW's pretty good when it comes to events, the account manager pretty much sets everything up for you, you pretty much just need to be there. Its great from what I can see.

And all the help is appreciated.. long post or not! :D

I didn't know that they did that. All I here is how GW put on very stringent rules for brick and morter stores to sell thier product. It has to be thier way or no way then. Again this is what I hear from reading posts on other people who tried to run stores.

[HsojVvad]

I tried google, best I could come up with, my Google-fu is not so good. Try this link and let us know what you think.

http://ask.metafilter.com/43405/Thinking-of-opening-a-game-store

[gcsmith]

I hope this goes well, and Ill give wat advice I can,
Make sure ur not near a GW. I know a guy who went to my local GW where i lived who started a Indy store, sold things like warmachine/hordes, however since I spent so much money on GW I only used that, I only bought TCG from the indy store, He did well for a while and got a bigger store, then I moved away.
Recently went back and he had closed down :(.

Remember if you dnt offer discounts and theres a GW store nearby, you will lose.
An important thing to note is having plenty of Gaming space, with GW closing down gaming areas this is going to help. lots.
Also run tournaments, events, campaigns everything to get gamers in, having fun. But make sure you complete each event, keep it going. or gamers will stop coming as they seem half arsed.

Just wanted to say wats so bad about being closed on sundays :P Im pretty annoyed in UK as most events are sundays, And Im always busy with things like church. Stupid gamesday not on saturdays.

[JxKxR]

Dude if you could get a pretty girl who knew about all this games stuff to work for you then you wouldn't have to worry about money.

[Daemonette666]

A friend of Mine Matt Reichart. He runs the Hall of Heroes in Campbelltown NSW - Australia. Now he is an ex GW employee, and his store is just 8 KM away from a local GW store which is situated in a shopping cente. He has been open for the last 5 months, and he gets very tired. Very tired. His opening hours are 6 days a week, and he only hires 2 casual staff. His wife and mother help out a lot, and still he is only just making ends meet. He has a great location set on a main street, and there is enough room behind the store for customer parking.

He plans to add a small cafeteria to sell coffee, cakes, pies, etc once he gets the council permission and a builder to build a door between the 2 halves of his shop (large store). Once he has completed this, then he will have the stock/ games selling area in on half with the cafeteria at the back of this. He will have the other half completely dedicated to wargaming tables for everything from Rules of engagement, Warmachine, WH fantasy, WH 40K, Skirmish games like Mordenheim, Infinity, etc. Then there will be the card playing tables, the role game playing area, and finally the hobby painting area.

Now every single cent/ that is not spent on his home and family is put right back into the store. He has a tight budget, problems with delivery services that want to deliver goods on the day he is closed, or before he opens the shop, supplier problems, and he has to market to a wide range of wargaming, gaming, and card gaming genres that it becomes difficult to know every gaming system competently. He is normally needing to get rule clarifications for the more obscure games that he does not play normally from other gamers in the store, he knows that play the game.

Because he is covering many of the niche gaming systems such as ROE, FOW, Infinity, Blood Bowl, Mordenheim, Munchkins, D&D (modern), Zombie board games, etc he has garnered a good reputation from the local community. He tries to get stock in for you if you can lead him in the right direction, and depending on how well it sells, he might even stock some of them on the shelf. For example I play Battletech, and he has ordered the new box set in for me, but other than the 4 box set he has ordered, he will not be getting the miniatures in unless it becomes cost effective for him.

He also sell all the add ons for miniature building and painting. Everything from GW, to P3 paints, to scenic bases, to dice, to counters, to gravel/granite and clump grass and paint brushes and glues. I do not know if he had to mortgage his home, but I would guess he either had a very large nest egg or he still owes the bank a bit of money. Do not worry about that though as businesses generally have a 5 year period before they make a decent profit margin.

He has a really good customer service style, and between his wife helping with the accounting and his mum helping with stock and trips to the shops for lunch, he is pretty much busy all the time. His staff help when he can afford it, and he needs extra help when he runs special gaming events or tournaments.

This will help answer another of your questions - most suppliers will have a specific set of rules that have to be followed for their tournament. I.E. only GW miniatures, or minimum 8 players for a Magic the Gathering Booster draw, etc.

He choose an off street location with a huge floor space on a main street because he did not want the restriction of a long lease and set opening hours, and he knew he would need the space for gaming tables and to sell stock.

Advertising is your final unanswered question I think. Well Matt has not had any form of advertisement except the local yellow pages (business directory), and web forums on face book, and a few websites like Wargamer.au, and others in their sponsored forums section. Most of his walk in customers have been because of "word of mouth" (do not think that WOM is ineffective, it can make or break a business) and the large signs on the side fence and on the front of the store.

At the moment he will not be advertising on radio, T.V., billboards, or in the news papers. They cost too much and such methods are not normally used until he store/company has grown or expanded.

Oh, and he lets people come in and use his gaming tables for free. It does not matter what game you are playing, but first in first served, and if you want a table put aside for you then you have to et him know so he can get the scenery set up and hold it for you.

I hope this has helped a bit. I tried to show you that it is very hard work, with lots of commitment and support from friends and family need to help you along. Like matt you will not have time to play the games socially once you open the store. Not for a long time. Also you need to ensure the location you choose has a large enough customer base with a population that can provide new converts.

[Root]

I personally have no advice for you but I bet you could contact my FLGS through their website at armadagames.com. The 2 guys who own it, Aaron and Michael seem to know their business. Its the best game store I've ever been to and I am always happy to give them piles of my hard earned cash. Good luck, its a tough business to thrive in...

[HsojVvad]

As for advertising, it does work sometimes. For example, I would never have herd of Black Knight Games if they did not advertise on these very forums of BoLS. I thought it was Hamilton in the UK somewhere, but I was bored, so I clicked on the link and saw it was here in Ontario.

So I paid them a visit. Never went back just because it wasn't worth it for me. Again, if they were going to sell the same price as GW, I went to GW because there, they teach my son how to paint, again, things that bring in good customer service.

So maybe you can help teach people how to paint as well. Because GW took the time to teach me a bit how to paint, I got my painting supplies from them, even though I knew this was more expensive, just to save a few bucks is not worth having the knowladge avaliable to me from the store.

So treat the customers proplery, with respect, and show that you care, and hopefully they will support you then. Not all people will do this, and you seem to understand this part, but again, when you have that lease or rent of $2000 a month, how long before your human part kicks in and you get resentfull of people not contributing by buying things from you but else where but use up your electricity and table space. After all the bigger the store, the bigger the rent or lease. So having gaming space costs you money.

[Skragger]

Thank you for all your advise and help everyone.. its been great support and very uplifting knowing there are still some people out there working to make the brick and mortar store happen. Just to mention a few points everyone’s been touching on:

HsojVvald: Your point is the key point of my post: ‘is this financially feasible?’ Breaking zero is my goal to start, making a profit comes after I’ve found a way to reach that goal by cutting as few corners as possible.

With the magic cards, from what I’ve heard they sell in waves. I’ve heard TCG described as “a soul sucking arms race” and its true, I don’t play competitively, so my cards from the 90’s suit me just fine, but I know some people who spend hundreds of dollars every time a new set comes out because the old ones are now “obsolete” (yet I still manage to win my fair share of games against them…). As for how much of a gold mine they can be though, I’m not too sure, I guess I’d want to talk to companies like Wizards of the Coast.

GWs rules are tight, but I bet it saves them some grief. It must be a real store (not online), must be in an area zoned commercial, must be open a minimum of 20 hours a week, and I (naturally) need to have all my licenses and paperwork in order. It saves them from me setting up my own “store account” from home and getting the discount and free shipping. Its tight, but logical. They do offer quite some incentives though for events, $150CDN quarterly for prize support, and the GW liaison helps you set up and run events. Which is groovy.

Gcsmith: I’m not too close to an official GW store. The nearest thing is a place called Phoenix Games and Hobbies, they’re not official GW, but they only stock GW stuff. They’re horrifyingly expensive (even by GW standards) and while they have gaming space (4 tables), the store is only about 500sq feet so its really cramped.

I’ve heard some cool ideas on here for discounts (the idea of points, student discount) a buddy of mine had the idea of a membership for the store (pay/month, but you get a small discount and cheaper entry to events). As for Sundays, usually Sunday is my only free day, so its hard to get my GW fix.

Daemonette666, I pretty much see myself exactly as your friend Matt is. The cafeteria is an interesting idea, but we’d be in the uptown core of the city, so small cafes are abound, and the location we’ve been eyeing has one right next door. Support is there, a lot of it is based on “its still in the planning stage” but once things get going, I know I can trust on everyone to help me out as best they can.

Did he start off just doing the core games and then expand? What games did he start off with offering? Is there any chance he has some contact info I could get a hold of him with?

Thanks Root! I’ll give them a shout!

And lastly (phew.. long reply, sorry guys!)
We definitely do want to do workshops on things like how to paint. One thing we were thinking about was one weekend doing a “basics of painting” thing for an hour or whatnot, and then the following weekend holding our own little in-store golden daemon competition. So we send home people with the knowledge of “how to paint” and then we give them a reason to apply that logic. Small things like that: a how to play warhammer day, followed by a newbies tournament. My GW rep made a point in saying was that “new players are your best shot. Veterans will come in and say “I need this” and drop $60 on one item, and leave. Newbies are going to come in and drop $300 on a new army. Not only that, but they’re developing their loyalty to GW though your store. Veterans will go from store to store to find the best deal.”

Again, thank you for your help everyone.. if you come up with anything else.. let me know!

[Hive Mind]

Really? Hmmm.. I never thought of that! And of course, the holy grail of employees - the girl gamer...

You'll have to compete with Steffy at the GW Mapleview Mall in Burlington...

I spend the summer in a little village halfway between Guelph and Hamilton so Mapleview is the closest hobby store for me and I'm always shocked (I mean jaw-droppingly shocked) at how expensive GW is in Canada compared to here in Blighty. Even when you account for the currency exchange you guys pay a lot more than we do.

Are you going to have a grand opening bash? Something to announce your arrival on the scene?

[Skragger]

You'll have to compete with Steffy at the GW Mapleview Mall in Burlington...

I spend the summer in a little village halfway between Guelph and Hamilton so Mapleview is the closest hobby store for me and I'm always shocked (I mean jaw-droppingly shocked) at how expensive GW is in Canada compared to here in Blighty. Even when you account for the currency exchange you guys pay a lot more than we do.

Are you going to have a grand opening bash? Something to announce your arrival on the scene?

GW prices here are off the wall - around $60 CDN (~29-31 pounds) for a drop pod. I asked my GW rep about the price difference and it seems prices are fixed for 12 months based on the Dec 30th exchange rate, so the US dollar and the Euro/Pound could go the way of the lyra tomorrow and we'd still be stuck paying out the wazoo.

As for opening bashes, we've got some exciting things planned. We call it "The Month of War" - 3 tournaments for 40K, WHFB, and Magic: TCG, some free loot for playing, and some swanky prizes for the winners. We're also thinking about having a mini Golden Daemon (Golden Gladiator) competition as well. Prizes include: Points (still in the works, see above post from Lemt), models, T shirts, and a dice cube for everyone who plays.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I have this gaming store near me on "college hill" ie the strip right near the college where a lot of business is. Its a great place, and the guy that owns it is really friendly and will chat the customers up. Just a fun guy to be around, he is a salesman and does discounts and things that make people wanna buy. He isn't creepy or annoying about it, the guy finds a good balance.

I agree with earlier posts, don't just sit behind the counter and read a book or BS with your friends, talk to everyone and have fun with them. Be helpful and friendly, that has made a big difference at that store of mine. There is another store in town, and the guy is kinda aloof and doesn't really talk to many people. His atmosphere of his store is completely stagnant and no fun, the only reason I go there is my warhammer stuff because the other gaming shop doesn't have the space for warhammer.

A big thing for me is a lot of gaming shops don't know how to deal with girl gamers, we exist, and it can get really uncomfortable when your being creepy. Just talk to us about games, the only difference between us and the guys is we are girls, we still love games and comics and stuff. My local shop, he just talks, has fun, we talk about gaming and other random stuff, he doesn't treat me any different which is nice. Thats why I go there for all my non-warhammer needs, like Magic the Gathering.

So yeah, big thing is location, that is very important, but also make a fun and friendly atmosphere for everyone and have fun with it.

[HsojVvad]

You'll have to compete with Steffy at the GW Mapleview Mall in Burlington...

I spend the summer in a little village halfway between Guelph and Hamilton so Mapleview is the closest hobby store for me and I'm always shocked (I mean jaw-droppingly shocked) at how expensive GW is in Canada compared to here in Blighty. Even when you account for the currency exchange you guys pay a lot more than we do.

Are you going to have a grand opening bash? Something to announce your arrival on the scene?

There is no more GW at Mapleview mall. Hasn't been for a while now. GW stores are closing and no new ones opening up.

[Hive Mind]

There is no more GW at Mapleview mall. Hasn't been for a while now. GW stores are closing and no new ones opening up.

Really? Guess it shows that I haven't been in SW Ontario since last september then.

I can't say I'm surprised, not at the prices they charged. I tried to buy a Bloodthirster and they wanted $70 for it. I thought she was kidding at first.

I guess I'll have to spend all my fat British pounds in Scragger's store this summer instead then.

[Daemonette666]

Skragger, I got Matt's email address form his website. I am sure he would not mind you emailing him some questions, though how much time he has to answer them all is another thing.

[email protected]

This is also the link to his website: http://www.thehallofheroes.com.au/index.php

If you check out his website, go to the gallery and the Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse photos and under the Xenos and dirty traitor horde photo you will see Matt pointing at me hiding behind the guy in the red shirt with just my 145 signals squadron hat is showing. I am so photophobic. The website is not up to date as we have had a couple events worth of photos still to go up. I think it is because Matt got another huge order from battle foam in and has to enter it all.

Matt also teaches people painting, modelling and scenery when he has time. If not him, then one of his 2 helpers (casual employees). He also runs a special event one Saturday a month where the guys from OZ gaming (professional painters who paint better than White Dwarf and maybe even better than Golden Daemon) give painting tips to people. Sebastian Archer is one of their members and he has won the Golden Daemon for a few of his entries.

Also, where GW, does not allow you to play fantasy and 40K with non GW models, as long as it is not a special GW soonsored event, you can play with any models you like so long as your opponent knows what it represents. For example I am using the "Iron Brotherhood" miniatures I got from Matt to represent Dark Mechanicus Skitari in some of my social games.

Good luck with the store.

[Skragger]

Thanks for the reply Daemonette666! I'm going to drop him a line for sure. Sadly, there are no painters of great repute around here, we have good painters, but no shining gods of painting glory. I did used to know a guy who would hand-paint latin in size 6 font on his SoB's tanks though.. I wonder what happened to him...

I know about the GW minis rule, but now that they don't send out GM's it seems like it'd be a rather hard thing to enforce..

[Skragger]

Really? Guess it shows that I haven't been in SW Ontario since last september then.

I can't say I'm surprised, not at the prices they charged. I tried to buy a Bloodthirster and they wanted $70 for it. I thought she was kidding at first.

I guess I'll have to spend all my fat British pounds in Scragger's store this summer instead then.

We bow down and worship your curiously fat, yet still small golden coins!

[Outlander]

Hey skragger,

I was very excited to hear of your store opening up. And in 2012.
I'd like to give you my thoughts on the matter.
1. Learn the techniques. For painting you'll need to get the basics of layering, washing, drybrushing(you've got that down) and the more advanced techniques, such as wet blending and object source lighting. It is one thing to paint well, it is another to teach.

2. I know high school is in the past, but I figure I'll say it. The 40k armies are all awesome.
No longer can you hold some higher than others. Bill from Phoenix in kitchener seemed to do that for a while I believe that's what began my animosity with him. All are great. Remember that.

3. You've got a great additude, and you need to hold onto it.

4. People gaming will most likely look to you for rules advice. I recommend you know them. Become a "Dave" if you will.

5. Juggling a store with your job is going to be difficult. Probably to the point of breaking. Get some help as soon as possible. I believe there's a security guard you know well who"d be able to help you out.

6. I have some books on painting and color theory if you'd like when I drop by next.

[Skragger]

Being a mentor will definitly be part of the ownership role. Teaching people how to paint and how to play will be part of the bill, and I'm in a constant state of reading rulebooks now.

When it comes to the actual seminars on painting I'm hoping to find a local expert who can come in and help out with those. Teach everything from the basics to the complex to a larger group. Having the extra help will be a must. But thats what friends are for! Cheap labou-er.. I mean.. yeah!

And thanks for the books! I'll shoot you the address

[Daemonette666]

Skragger, I gave Matt a Warning Order about giving you his email and website. He is expecting your email, and will help if he can, when he has the time.

OMG, I am still talking like a Corporal "Warning Order" LOL. I have been out of the Regular Army for nearly 4 years, now and I even turn and check behind me (as though I were patrolling) every now and then without even realising it.

Maybe I am a sleeper for the army, just in case Australia get invaded.

Anyway being serious now, Skragger, Matt should be able to pass on some good advice to you.

[Skragger]

Skragger, I gave Matt a Warning Order about giving you his email and website. He is expecting your email, and will help if he can, when he has the time.

OMG, I am still talking like a Corporal "Warning Order" LOL. I have been out of the Regular Army for nearly 4 years, now and I even turn and check behind me (as though I were patrolling) every now and then without even realising it.

Maybe I am a sleeper for the army, just in case Australia get invaded.

Anyway being serious now, Skragger, Matt should be able to pass on some good advice to you.

Righto! I'll report to Matt this evening (ha.. eastern standard time that is).

[Daemonette666]

Righto! I'll report to Matt this evening (ha.. eastern standard time that is).
Remember if you try and call him (yeah I know it costs too much for international phone call), but remember we are back onto normal time, not daylight savings time. Therefore we are back to the KILO time zone (GMT + 10).

Oh and most days he is open from 12noon to 5pm, sometimes as late as 7pm, and he is closed Mondays.

And may the Shwartz be with you.

[Bedroom General]

G'day from Oz
I drive further than my local GW store to purchase my stuff. Why? You sensibly ask. Well its because I've got a history with these guys (Military Hobbies, South Australia) They sell a lot of different stuff. They give a 10% discount to regulars on any GW stuff sales over $20, but its because they're good people, and I like 'em that I go back. They have a computer that is always on, therefore they can at least look up whatever rule we have probs with, and find the stuff I might want to order. Then they tell me when its likely to come in (Games Workshop are a "little" unpredictable in this neck of the woods.)

For what its worth
Many people prefer a bricks 'n mortar store for the people in it.
The best terrain I've ever seen is Battlefield in a box stuff, designed in New Zealand (Its not just for hobbits you know!) made in China, great bang for your buck!!

My beautiful wife is a graphic designer/web site creator, so she is very cluey about the online aspect, and she suggests that that should be something you look into, asa way of advertising that is quite cost efficient.

So really, from a player/buyer perspective i'd say "Build it and they will come" If you are good people and can create a rapport with the local gaming community. We are basically addicts looking for the best/most comfortable fix.

Probably not much help, but my heart is in the right place;)

[Skragger]

Heart in the right place is the key!

I've been looking into those battleboards, as a quick way to set up a gaming table - I'd just have regular 6x4 tables (so people can play card games on them, etc) but also have some battle boards ready to deploy if people want to play some warhammer too. Just drop some terrain on em and bingo!

Has anyone tried the Realm of Battle boards?

[eldargal]

RoBs are very durable, I would imagine ideal for a store where they will see a lot of use. We use them in our club to cut down on the amount of maintenance needed on the custom tables. Some of the rougher members have actually been banned from using the custom tables.

[Skragger]

RoBs are very durable, I would imagine ideal for a store where they will see a lot of use. We use them in our club to cut down on the amount of maintenance needed on the custom tables. Some of the rougher members have actually been banned from using the custom tables.

You're right, robust is very good for a store. I think they might work better than a full custom table, because, again, they can be easily moved so non-warhammer-ers can use the tables as well.

I can only imagine the pain of having a custom table broken... :(

[JxKxR]

I can only imagine the pain of having a custom table broken... :(

It's so terrible! I had a really nice one once with a little pond and hills... I miss it so much.:( Now I just play with three pieces of chip board with a mat glued to them. It is awesome for storage though if I ever need to put it away.

[Daemonette666]

How is this for a custom table. It is designed on the last scene from "saving private Ryan". The town of Ramelle, France. The cobblestone roads are not the best for rolling the dice on though.

http://www.thehallofheroes.com.au/images/gallery/table_1.jpg

He has quite a few other tables that have terrain features as part of the table, and buildings and other terrain can be added for each game.

http://www.thehallofheroes.com.au/images/gallery/Hall_of_Heroes_December_7th_(26).jpg

He is currently working on building a board for Mordenheim, and another for Infinity/space hulk/industrial city fight games.

[JxKxR]

@ Daemonette666

That's awesome!

@ Skragger

Try having some Xeno terrain on some of your gaming tables. Maybe even paint the ground a different color like red or purple. It's just a little way of showing the xeno players in your area a little love. I'm sure your customers could help with the terrain too. I would have made a lot more terrain if I had a place to put it. I just like making terrain.

[Bedroom General]

I don't think I was very clear Skragger (just started term holidays, I'm a teacher, and I was havin' a few whiskies last night!) In regards to what I said about the battlefield in a box stuff, I was actually recommending stocking that stuff rather than GW terrain. It is robust and best of all, ready to go straight out of the box, no assembly required. (geez, sounds like I work for 'em eh?) I've got quite a bit, and it flies out of my flgs, the guys are really happy with it.
Anyhoo....as far as your in shop terrain goes, I'd suggest buying a cheap hot wire foam cutter and some thin MDF type material. Most of the time you'll be able to find foam (usually ex packing foam, ask your mates to save it) being thrown out. Free is the new black!! carve em into shape, glue to bits of the MDF and get a big brush, acrylic paint and you're good to go. Also you won't be too upset if anything happens to your terrain as it is easily replaceable. I run a games club at my school, and am an art teacher, so feel free to trust me on this. It can look really good.
Keep your overheads as low as you can.
Best wishes for your endeavour.

[Daemonette666]

JxKxR, I will have to tell Matt that. It is his shop. and well with him busy trying to get another 2 tables out, he might not appreciate the comment. He does get stressed, when he is over tired. LOL

Thanks for the recommendation. I saw some Green crystal piles which are ready made scenery. I think they are made by GR9, but I can not be sure. There are packs of basing grass/grass and flower bed tufts that gllue onto the miniature bases that matt has in his store. You reminded me of the as I bought one that is purple, and I intend to put the grass tufts on my Noise marine Army bases.

[Skragger]

Thanks for the advice Bedroom General about the boards selling (and watch out for whiskey + internet... baad stories there). Neither of the two stores in my area stock terrain like that (only terrifyingly priced model railway trees - yeah right, like I'm sinking $30 into 4 trees). I'll have to get a few and see how they sell!

It may be counter productive though, cause I'm banking on people coming to play at my store, I don't want to give them the means to play elsewhere. Maybe make it one of those things where its available if they want it ordered, but not in stock.

Daemonette666, I'm loving that saving private ryan styled table! Must be a bit tight to play on though

[Daemonette666]

Thanks for the advice Bedroom General about the boards selling (and watch out for whiskey + internet... baad stories there). Neither of the two stores in my area stock terrain like that (only terrifyingly priced model railway trees - yeah right, like I'm sinking $30 into 4 trees). I'll have to get a few and see how they sell!

It may be counter productive though, cause I'm banking on people coming to play at my store, I don't want to give them the means to play elsewhere. Maybe make it one of those things where its available if they want it ordered, but not in stock.

Daemonette666, I'm loving that saving private ryan styled table! Must be a bit tight to play on though
The board is very cramped, especially for dice rolling, and vehicles should count most of the board terrain as difficult of impassable as there are piles of rubble everywhere.

Some of the buildings, such as the church tower have removable tops, so miniatures can be put inside, but almost everyone who has played on the table and secretly hidden troops in these buildings has left a figure or even a whole squad in them, and they are inevitably found by the next player who leaves them at the counter.

There is also a small red die from the GW dice set that mysteriously sits on the roof of the church next to the tower. We move it, put it back in the dice box (tuppaware container), and it is there the next time we play a game. It has a mind of its own, so if any alien has left his pet die in the shop - ET phone home, then please pick it up, it is lonely.

Seriously though I think it is the skirmish gamers turn marker die, and they keep forgetting to pack it away.

He has brought in some new removable terrain from his home. it is a jungle terrain, and most of the trees and shrubs are the plastic grass and weeds you get for fish tanks. It really looks good.

[Skragger]

Its a beautiful table, and I would kill to play some Mordaheim on it! I've left troops in buildings before, nothing like the rushed return to the store going "MY ORKS!". I've been trying to find cheap alternates to terrain, and its tricky. The fish tank stuff does make for good jungles though you're right.

I also stumbed across this: www.davesgames.net . They're cheap (about 99c usd each) card buildings, and they're extremely high quality. Also, they come with layers, so you can chose whether you want to have brick, cobble, grass, etc. Very nice stuff. The castle walls are fantastic. Now I just need to figure out how to affix the roof properly.. >.<

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Wow, the saving private ryan table is amazing, holy hell. Would be great for all infantry games, but I cannot imagine drop pods or vehicles in that wow. Overall though that board is just frakking beautiful.

[Daemonette666]

Its a beautiful table, and I would kill to play some Mordaheim on it! I've left troops in buildings before, nothing like the rushed return to the store going "MY ORKS!". I've been trying to find cheap alternates to terrain, and its tricky. The fish tank stuff does make for good jungles though you're right.

I also stumbed across this: www.davesgames.net . They're cheap (about 99c usd each) card buildings, and they're extremely high quality. Also, they come with layers, so you can chose whether you want to have brick, cobble, grass, etc. Very nice stuff. The castle walls are fantastic. Now I just need to figure out how to affix the roof properly.. >.<
I have used the old Warhammer Fantasy cardboard buildings from 1st edition. They always got crushed when someone put their books or heavy miniatures on them, and they were a nightmare to carefully pack away.

If you want mordenheim, then he is building a new table at the moment. Link - http://www.thehallofheroes.com.au/pages/eventpho.php?gallery=mordheim. It is actually going to be 3 levels high with the individual buildings able to be lifted off to reveal the basement and sub-levels.

My only concerns would be how big is the table going to be, and if it is large, where do you put all the buildings and any floor sections that are removed?, and that I would not like to damage the table leaning over to move a miniature in a basement in the middle of the board, when non of the buildings on the edge have been moved into.

The Mordenheim buildings were already built when I saw them, and might be bought pre painted, the Blue foam is of the high density type. and the cobblestone effect is the result of a person marking in the design with a lead pencil by hand over several hours. The walls are trimmed on the top with the stone blocks being cut into it. He has been working on this project for 3 weeks now, between his normal work duties, and even with 3 other people helping, it is still not finished.

I would love to see some new photos on his website when it is finished.

[Skragger]

I can see the mordiheim table being a really cool idea, but you're right, it'd be really bulky. I think the best way to work it would be to have lower buildings on the outside, so that when you have to lean over, you're not leaning over higher buildings to get to a lower one. Its a very nice idea! One of the benefits of owning a store is that you have room to work on ideas like this. No room at all in my small apartment. I don't even have a 6x4 table, I have to put some thin planks of wood on my table to make it the right size... no leaning!