All Henchmen Army illegal?

[NehemiahD]

SO I was ready the Grey Knights codex and it says that Corteaz makes all Henchmen squads troops. However in the henchmen entry it states that Henchmen squads to not count towards the FOC. What is with this? Please explain. Is it just that simple?

[Nungunz]

GW pretty much failed at their wording again.

Anywho, here is my interpretation.

1) For every Inquisitor take, you may take one henchmen warband that don't count towards the FOC.
2) If you take Coteaz, henchmen count as troops on the FOC so you can have up to six warbands.
3) If you do not take any Inquisitors at all you may not take any henchmen warbands.

Just my interpretation. GW will probably errata this at some point so it's actually clear what they mean.

[Necron_Lord]

SO I was ready the Grey Knights codex and it says that Corteaz makes all Henchmen squads troops. However in the henchmen entry it states that Henchmen squads to not count towards the FOC. What is with this? Please explain. Is it just that simple?

If you read p. 86 of the codex it states the following - Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inqusitors in your army.

It is quite simple, really. If you have Inquisitor Coteaz you may take them as Troops choices and they take up an FOC Troops slot. If you don't take Coteaz, you may take one warband per Inquisitor in your army but they don't take up any FOC slot, just like a command squad for Codex chapters. If you don't have any Inquisitors, you can't take any henchmen, which seems reasonable.

I guess the confusing part is listing them in the Elites section when they are essentially just a unit unlocked by an HQ unit which doesn't take up any FOC slot, with the exception of Coteaz, of course.

[Lemt]

If you read p. 86 of the codex it states the following - Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inqusitors in your army.

It is quite simple, really. If you have Inquisitor Coteaz you may take them as Troops choices and they take up an FOC Troops slot. If you don't take Coteaz, you may take one warband per Inquisitor in your army but they don't take up any FOC slot, just like a command squad for Codex chapters. If you don't have any Inquisitors, you can't take any henchmen, which seems reasonable.

I guess the confusing part is listing them in the Elites section when they are essentially just a unit unlocked by an HQ unit which doesn't take up any FOC slot, with the exception of Coteaz, of course.

Everythign would have been so much simpler had they been listed in the HQ section in the same way retinues are. :(

[Sam]

I'm pretty sure the idea behind Coteaz's rule is to let you run an Inquisition army instead of a Grey Knight army. So no, the henchmen army is not illegal.

[NehemiahD]

OK thanks for the clarification, If your interested, check out my Inquisitorial army list I just posted up and tell me what ya'll think. Thanks!

[zenjah]

I don't see anything in the rules that would cancel the statement under Henchmen that says "This unit does not use up a force organisation slot."

Just because they become a Troops choice doesn't mean they use up a force organisation slot.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Paul]

I don't see anything in the rules that would cancel the statement under Henchmen that says "This unit does not use up a force organisation slot."

Just because they become a Troops choice doesn't mean they use up a force organisation slot.

I hope I'm wrong.

Actually, they don't need to.

The Black Templar's Emperor's Champion does not take up an HQ slot, and yet can act as the required HQ for the army.

SO:

Imperial forces that have choices that don't take up slots can still count them towards the minimum requirements.

I personally believe they start taking up slots, but that is not required for the all-Inquisition army to be legal.

[zenjah]

Do you suppose a Chaos Space Marines army could use Lesser Daemons as the two compulsory troops choices as well?

And a Greater Daemon as the compulsory HQ?


<EDIT>

Apparently the CSM codex actually specifically says daemons "are chosen in addition to your normal minimums and maximums."

[Exterminatus]

Actually yes.. it is just that simple. Sometimes people make things harder than they appear. Zenjah sorry to say you are absolutly correct as well. Rule is very clear to understand. If u take an inquisitor you may take a warband in a 1:1 ratio. if u take Coteaz ignore the ratio and take as many as you want, and yes the units do not take up a FOC slot, just because you take Coteaz and they change from a Elite to a troop has no bearing, change, consiquence etc on the fact they still take up no space on the FOC chart, so yea make 20, 3 man troop units if it makes ya feel good :)

"To the righteous we bring hope. To the tainted we bring fire."

- Castellan Garran Crowe

[DarkLink]

People seem to try and overthink this too much. Yes, Coteaz's rule is as "broken" as it sounds. Not that it's actually really broken except perhaps in one or two absurd cases (which probably aren't even that broken either), and something might change with the FAQ. We'll see.

[Denzark]

If the Henchman don't take up FOC slots, how can they act as the compulsory 2 troops choices? My reading is that the Coteaz makes them a troops choice and makes them unlimited as opposed to a limited to 1 per inquisitor - I can't get any reading on why that would take away the 'doesn't fill a troops slot' issue.


Whats the point if the change has no effect? Well for a start it effects deployment.

If you come back with a statement that they do count as the compulsory troops then please back it up with a reference to the rule or FAQ. If not I can't get my head around how something can act as one of 2 compulsory requirements without taking up a FOC slot.

[gcsmith]

how can something act as Cumpulsory HQ without taking a slot, Example Emperors champion :)

Rules state mimimum of 2 choices not, 2 slot filling choices :)

[DarkLink]

Exactly. There are no rules in the BRB dealing with this, but in the Black Templar FAQ, it explicitly states that even though the Emperor's Champion does not take up a slot, it still counts as your minimum of 1 HQ.

[Denzark]

Good for BT but whilst that sets an admitted precedent, it does nothing for GK raw. BT says yes, Chaos Space marine lesser daemons say no, GK is not specific.

Again, comes back to 'are the rules permissive' or not.

And I want to be sure because I want to run an all henchman Inquisitor army.

[gcsmith]

Lesser daemons say no specifically, this also sets precidence that it needs to state specifically not counting towards 2 troops.
I mean find me anywhere in the codex or rulesbook that the 2 troops MUST take 2 of the 6 slots

[Tynskel]

yeah the key point, in this case is that the

BT codex didn't explicitly state that it counts as a minimum, however FAQ stating that it can.

The chaos codex explicitly states that they do NOT count toward the FOC minimum.

The real difference here is that the case where the codex explicitly states something does or does not count toward the minimum.

Another example: Tau Empire: HQ 1 for Suit commander, and TROOPS 1 for Firewarriors. The codex, once again, explicitly states that something has to happen.

The default position from these three examples is that unless explicitly stated so, a Troops unit counts toward the minimums for FOC.

The all henchmen army is fine.
There are no stated minimum squads for Codex Grey Knights. The henchmen are also not explicitly stated as not counting toward the minimums.

[DarkLink]

Summoned Lesser Daemons have a unit-specific rule that prevents them from scoring, with no reference to non-foc units in general. The BT ruling, while non-binding as it is an FAQ, does specifically refer to non-foc units in general.

So as Tynskel says, so far the only examples we have indicate that they count towards the minimum by default (BT FAQ), and the codex will explicitly state if they don't (Summoned Lesser Daemons).

[somerandomdude]

If you come back with a statement that they do count as the compulsory troops then please back it up with a reference to the rule or FAQ. If not I can't get my head around how something can act as one of 2 compulsory requirements without taking up a FOC slot.

The statement that says they do not take up a slot is in the same box that says you can take them if you include an Inquisitor. If you're not using all of the box, then how can you use any of it?

They don't take up a slot if you take an Inquisitor. If you take Coteaz, you're using the box on his page, and you're not satisfying the box on their own page.

[wkz]

Hmmmm... IMO:

From what I see, we have 2 arguments running in parallel:
a) Are ALL inquisitor henchmen non-slot taking units?
b) Are non-slot taking units counting towards FOC requirements??


(b) is actually quite straightforward: there's precedence for non-slot taking units, and those DO NOT count towards FOC requirements. Exceptions to the case usually takes a specific mention (or an FAQ mention) before a non-slot taking unit can count towards filling up FOC requirements.



Which comes back to (a) Are ALL inquisitor henchmen non-slot taking units?

On one hand, we have: For every Inquisitor you take, you may take one henchmen warband that don't count towards the FOC. (but curiously they are listed inside "elites" in the army list). On the other: Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inqusitors in your army. But do those take up Troop slots and thus fulfill FOC requirements?

...

From what I can read... ... Yes, Coteaz's Troop henchmen does fulfill FOC requirements. In fact, and this is quite interesting, I do believe you can get 8 henchmen at most from one FOC chart.

My reasoning: Both of the sentences above seem to interfere with each other... but IMO, they don't. What I think they do is they allow 2 pathways to the same thing: a set of conditions to fulfill a need. Sorta like "take a train" compared to "take a bus", both sets of instructions allow you to travel from point A to point B. And as with choices, they have pros and cons: "take a train" might be more expensive, but faster... or something. Anyways, breaking from the analogy we have:

Choice A) Take a Henchman. Requirements: One Inquisitor who did not yet generate a Henchman in this way. (does not need FOC slot. Henchmen are Elites)

Choice B) Take a Henchman. Requirements: Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, one Troop slot. (Henchmen are Troops, and thus scoring)

If we think of it this way, Coteaz can thus fill up 6 troop-slots worth of Henchmen. Additionally, with 2 Inquisitors in the HQ slots, you can add two more non-FOC Henchmen. As said, this brings the total to 6 Troop henchmen and 2 Elite henchmen.

Note that this is still my opinion on the matter. I guess we'll wait for the FAQ to fully resolve matters...

[DarkLink]

A unit can be a troops choice and not take up a slot. A unit can be in any section of the FOC and not take up a slot. Taking up a slot is a property completely independent of what category of the FOC you are in. Coteaz just makes them troops in order to fulfill the minimum troop requirements so you can have an all I army.

[wkz]

A unit can be a troops choice and not take up a slot. A unit can be in any section of the FOC and not take up a slot. Taking up a slot is a property completely independent of what category of the FOC you are in. Coteaz just makes them troops in order to fulfill the minimum troop requirements so you can have an all I army.

The thing is: you NEED to fill up 2 troop slots and one HQ slot in order to field a legal army. Taking "non-slot" troop choices is not enough in this case.

"Coteaz makes them troops" has the same wording of about every other codex out there, which means "said unit is now using a Troop choice slow in the FOC".

[gcsmith]

Actually there is no case in rules of a unit not taking up a slot not counting just on that fact, Some of these units have mentioned in addition they dnt count towards min, However the EC states a precedence that when it is not mention it doesnt count, that it does.

[DarkLink]

Right, there aren't any rules actually covering how non-foc unit interact with the minimum requirements in general. It only says "you must take 2 troops units and 1 HQ unit". Whether or not they fill a slot, they are still troops units.

[bluesickboy]

dont get me wrong id love to take 15 squads of henchmen, just to do it. But by the logic presented above, and rules as best that I can read them from LRB, a space marine army could be made up of 1 squad and their transport and a HQ.

[DarkLink]

I don't have the rules on me, but I'm pretty sure that dedicated transports don't count towards the minimum for a different reason than not taking up a foc slot.

[Hive Mind]

p87 of the Rulebook says "[f]or example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad counts as a unit of troops..."

My emphasis.

So by that, a Chaplain attached to a Tactical Combat Squad all sat in a Razorback fulfils compulsory choices.

Which also means, thinking about it, that when you use the Dawn of War deployment you can't deploy two Tactical squads in Rhinos as that's four units of troops.

[wkz]

...
Which also means, thinking about it, that when you use the Dawn of War deployment you can't deploy two Tactical squads in Rhinos as that's four units of troops.

That's how my gaming group plays it, at least.



Also, re-read the rules again recently... did anyone note that the "non-slot" henchmen rule has the word "This"? As in "referring to the squad selected earlier"?

From memory: "Inq. Henchmen can be taken... per inquisitor. THIS Squad... not counting towards FOC".

This squad taken, refers to the squad taken using Inquisitor:Henchmen 1 to 1 rules. But if Henchmen are taken using another method?? Would the "not counting towards FOC" rule apply for THOSE guys?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, Dawn of War is by units, not by force org slots.


As to Dedicated Transports, the BRB specifically states that they don't count towards the minimums. It's kinda like the Summoned Lesser Daemons, they have a specific rule that does not necessarily imply a general one. In fact, it doesn't even use the language of "does not take up a force org slot".

Right under that (this is on pg 87), it says refer to the codex for units like Warbands. And, of course, the codex doesn't tell us. Great job, GW.

[gcsmith]

I would say since precidence shows that you need something saying you dnt count to say you dnt, then they do.

[Hive Mind]

As to Dedicated Transports, the BRB specifically states that they don't count towards the minimums. It's kinda like the Summoned Lesser Daemons, they have a specific rule that does not necessarily imply a general one. In fact, it doesn't even use the language of "does not take up a force org slot".

Where does it say this? I seem to remember reading this too but looking back all I can find is the stuff on p.87 and all p.87 says is that a transport bought for troops counts as a unit of troops.

[Tynskel]

Try 67

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg. 87 "Dedicated Transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure,..."
SM Codex pg.135 "These vehicles do not use up any Force Organisation chart selections,..."

[DarkLink]

Right. And in there they come soooo close to giving us a clear answer to this issue, but then they just don't. Instead of precisely defining how force org slots and minimum requirements and all that work together, they dance around the issue and leave us hanging.

[Tynskel]

What are you talking about? The question is do henchmen take up minimum requirements. The rulebook says the codex determines minimum requirements. The grey knits codex states when you take Cortez, the henchmen count as troops. The answer is that henchmen are troops. Therefore they meet the minimum requirements. The grey knights codex does not state anything else.

[SombreBrotherhood]

And for those wondering why Henchman Warbands are listed in Elites, it's so that under Non-Coteaz circumstances you don't mistake them for scoring units.

[Denzark]

What are you talking about? The question is do henchmen take up minimum requirements. The rulebook says the codex determines minimum requirements. The grey knits codex states when you take Cortez, the henchmen count as troops. The answer is that henchmen are troops. Therefore they meet the minimum requirements. The grey knights codex does not state anything else.

The codex says they don't take up FOC slots. If they don't take up a slot, they are not in or on it. In which case how are can they fulfil the requirements of being the minimum on something on/in which they don't appear?

[Tynskel]

The codex says they don't take up FOC slots. If they don't take up a slot, they are not in or on it. In which case how are can they fulfil the requirements of being the minimum on something on/in which they don't appear?

The Emperor's Champion doesn't take up FOC slots, but it does meet the minimum requirement.

The point is that doesn't prevent them from meeting minimum requirements. The codex has to state that the unit does not fulfill the minimum requirement, ie Chaos Marines lesser daemons.

you can take two units of Henchmen and meet the minimum requirements, and still take 6 units of grey knight terminators afterward.

[DarkLink]

If you read the FOC stuff in the codices, they only specify that you have to take 2 troops choices (not counting dedicated transports as per the BRB).

It never actually says you need to fill 2 slots, just that you need to take 2 units.