Tainted Grey Knights? or Chaos Grey Knights.

[HsojVvad]

I always wanted to do Grey Knights and was thinking of doing it now, but I just can't do it. The Grey Knights are no longer in my eyes, The Pure, The Righteous, The Marines anymore. From the Fluff I have read so far they seem like they are Tainted or they have Turned.

So I was thinking if I am going to do Grey Knights, that they are Tainted or Chaos, or Turned GK nows. I just can't think of them as the saviours of mankind because there is no way a 1000 super soldiers can save the Imperium from Chaos.

I don't even see "sub chapter" or successor chapters in the GK codex. If there is please tell me the page number. So how can the 1000 GK be Imperiums saviours?

So I am thinking of making my Grey Knights evil. I loved the fluff in Daemon Hunters, but so far very disapointed with the fluff in Grey Knights. So what do you think? Since alot of the new fluff makes them seem like they worship Chaos or ready to do so, why not make them evil.

Would you play me, if I had "Evil" GK?

[Xabraxis]

I have been pondering buying a GK Strike Squad just to see how I could paint them up as The Black Knights.
If I absolutely need evil helmets, I'm sure I have a few spare to try out from the Chaos Knights kit. Or even chaos warriors.

[elmir]

Even though there are some really crappy pieces of fluff in the new book, I didn't really get the feeling that GKs are all the sudden falling to the chaos taint, far from it...

But to answer your question, yes, I would play against such a list. It's a frigging hobby where grown men are playing with little toy soldiers. Anybody who wouldn't play against that army would have to be reminded that toy soldiers are not srs bzn... :p

And look at it this way: if somebody would refuse to play against that list because of the fluff twist you gave it, they would most likely not be the most pleasant of ppl to play against in the first place. If you would be that uptight about the fluff section of a codex, I can only imagine how bad it would be about the rules section. :confused:

[Kawauso]

I don't really see the problem with your idea...
But then, I don't really see the problem you have in the first place.

Every faction in 40k does 'evil' things all the time. So go for it. :)

I just don't think the Grey Knights were ever 'pure' the way you seem to. I mean, they're 'pure' in that they have never succumbed to the temptations and corruption of Chaos...but they still kill innocent people all the time - just like the Imperium at large. Exterminatus, anyone? Or the Ordo Hereticus? Not to mention all the xenocide going around.

[HsojVvad]

I guess with real life events coming up lateley, it is such a turn off for me, to try and play them as "good" guys. I guess playing them as "bad guys" seems easier to do.

Yeah I know pretty silly. :)

[Denzark]

I would happily play your evil Grey Knights. Tbh the opposition fluff is pretty meaningless especially fanfic - in pick up games unless it is a repeat opponent - although I like and respect a player to play the fluff for their army (ie my berzerkers aren't subtle, straight down your throat).

However if your same MEQ army came out one week as 'evil knights' then 'blood templars' then 'ultrawing terminators' then Vulkan melta spammy marines the next prior to masquerading as BA I would think that was cack and try to play someone who has one army of miniatures per codex.

[Spy_Smasher]

However if your same MEQ army came out one week as 'evil knights' then 'blood templars' then 'ultrawing terminators' then Vulkan melta spammy marines the next prior to masquerading as BA I would think that was cack and try to play someone who has one army of miniatures per codex.Tru dat. I only play rich people myself. I hate poor people.

[Denzark]

Tru dat. I only play rich people myself. I hate poor people.

Right on, bro.

Actually having met all stratas of society up to and including royalty, I can say the truly poor have no means to purchase luxuries such as plastic crack.

People who can afford to spend money not just on surviving, but on this hobby, are not poor by any means I can think of.

Anyhoo back OT...

[HsojVvad]

I would happily play your evil Grey Knights. Tbh the opposition fluff is pretty meaningless especially fanfic - in pick up games unless it is a repeat opponent - although I like and respect a player to play the fluff for their army (ie my berzerkers aren't subtle, straight down your throat).

However if your same MEQ army came out one week as 'evil knights' then 'blood templars' then 'ultrawing terminators' then Vulkan melta spammy marines the next prior to masquerading as BA I would think that was cack and try to play someone who has one army of miniatures per codex.

I can fully understand where you are coming from where people change there army to the current flavour all the time.


Right on, bro.

Actually having met all stratas of society up to and including royalty, I can say the truly poor have no means to purchase luxuries such as plastic crack.

People who can afford to spend money not just on surviving, but on this hobby, are not poor by any means I can think of.

Anyhoo back OT...

Don't forget alot of people may start out, bought what they had, and then lost thier jobs, so they are stuck with what they have and can't get anymore. Just because someone may seem to have alot, all that could have been bought in the past so no more future purchases can be made then.

[Lane]

So I was thinking if I am going to do Grey Knights, that they are Tainted or Chaos, or Turned GK nows. I just can't think of them as the saviours of mankind because there is no way a 1000 super soldiers can save the Imperium from Chaos.

I have not read the current GK codex but do not remember anything that said exactly ho many Grey Knights there are, it says chapter but since they are a secret I sure they have as many as they can get.
IIRC it also mentions they have psychers that divine where the GK are needed and how many. This is probably somewhat like the Eldar Farseers role. They may determine a single Deamon Prince is a grave threat and send two squads to kill it and the cultists that summoned it, yet they may ignore an incursion of hundreds of minor daemons.


As far as tainted GK, it does not fit the background. Think of the GK as having the Mark of the Emperor. Not to say that they are nice people, they do what they feel is needed to save humanity.

[Mr.Pickelz]

"I have not read the current GK codex but do not remember anything that said exactly ho many Grey Knights there are, it says chapter but since they are a secret I sure they have as many as they can get.
IIRC it also mentions they have psychers that divine where the GK are needed and how many. This is probably somewhat like the Eldar Farseers role. They may determine a single Deamon Prince is a grave threat and send two squads to kill it and the cultists that summoned it, yet they may ignore an incursion of hundreds of minor daemons."

In the new book, it talks about their origins and how GK's are simplified into a single Astartes Chapter (aka 1000 strong). Their are fluff pieces that talk about them killing pure(un-tainted) Sisters of battle and anointing their armor and weapons with said blood, in order to kill a loose Bloodthrister. There are others parts of it as well that doesn't sit well with me. However it is what it is and it's something you can avoid or change if you want.
In the 41st millennium, There is enough room for your own story...;)

[jmach]

I don't see any reason why not, I'm not big on the idea myself as Grey Knights/Daemonhunters has been my only army I've played since I started about 16 months ago. But it's your money do what you want with it, only people I have problems with that try to show up to tournaments at my flgs with an army that they say counts as when it's clearly an older army and hardly anything is wysiwyg, it's basically a proxy army.

I myself don't see the Grey Knights as falling, tainted, or evil. They do what has to be done without question, like in the story where they used the blood of the sisters of battle, they could have written the story a bit more differently, but their choice was to sit back and think about it while the rest of the planet was consumed by the bloodtide and those at the time pure sisters of battle that most of their fellow sisters had fallen already would fall themselves and the bloodthirster would get stronger and then that planet and the grey knights would be up **** creek, or they could do what they did and banish the demon saving the planet and the rest of its inhabitants, sacrifice a few to save the many more or less.

[GM Rex Nihilo]

... Heretic!!!

[dethangel]

none shall pass... wha.?none shall pass...

[Lord Castellan]

Yes, Matt Ward has destroyed the fluff. Used to be they were measured in small bands of a few squads, but there were tons of them. I havent read the fluff yet but what ive heard I dont like, I know I dont like the rules changes, how they are just marines with power weapons rather than the Grey Knights they used to be.

I would be frustrated about your army, yes, as a tainted Grey Knight is still ridiculous. The fluff still states that no Grey Knight has EVER fallen to Chaos. Not one. So its completely obstinant to make a Chaos Knights army. Perhaps you could play some very hardcore specific Chaos Marines using daemonic weapons and gifts, and run them using the Knights codex.

I wont refuse to play you no, im not a prick (at least I hope not :P) but id certainly love to talk with you about better alternatives.

Does the idea of ancient Chaos Marines with Daemonic weapons and the favor of the Gods justifying their rules interest you? Its a possible route.

[eldargal]

Go for Khornate Grey Knights, that way if anyone quibbles you can point out it is supported by the new fluff.:p

[miteyheroes]

Go for Khornate Grey Knights, that way if anyone quibbles you can point out it is supported by the new fluff.:p

Fluff says pretty clearly that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. (p.5 ch.4: "In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now.")

Sure, they're dicks. They're part of the Inquisition, which historically wasn't the nicest of organisations and in the Far Future is even worse. And yes, they kill Sisters of Battle if it'll help them stop Daemons. And they kill billions of people if it'll help them save the galaxy.

But they're not chaos-worshippers. Just very hard-core utilitarians.

[Xas]

Yes, Matt Ward has destroyed the fluff. ... I havent read the fluff yet


Do I have to reply more?


I've read most of the fluff (only the timetable with battles are "saved" for later ^^) and liked all of it. Even the dreaded Draigo pages were written in a way that actually fits in with the 40k universe.

The author has managed to transport the grey knights idea of pure superheroes, miracle crafters and the heirs of the emperors glory into a shell that works in the grimdark future.

What I most like about the new Gey Knight book is the idea that the knights and the inquisition as a whole uses all the tools necessary (including alien technology and even deamons if there are ways to bind them in a save manner) to further their goal of saveing humanity. Even tho they are the strongest icon of imperial believs they themselfes dont share any of that fuzz and just do what needs to be done.



On the topic itself I think you'd have to made a counts-as army. I do see the possibilities of inquisitors or even grey knights realising that chaos is humankinds only saviour from the alien that is tyranids and necrons if you want.

[eldargal]

The fluff also has them bathing in the blood of the pure Sisters that resisted corruption on a world that just happens to be under siege from Khornes* forces. Kudos to Mr Ward for writing one of the most subtle pieces of GrimDark undermining the Grey Knights purity one could imagine.;)


*You know, the blood God.


Fluff says pretty clearly that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos. (p.5 ch.4: "In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now.")

Sure, they're dicks. They're part of the Inquisition, which historically wasn't the nicest of organisations and in the Far Future is even worse. And yes, they kill Sisters of Battle if it'll help them stop Daemons. And they kill billions of people if it'll help them save the galaxy.

But they're not chaos-worshippers. Just very hard-core utilitarians.

[miteyheroes]

The fluff also has them bathing in the blood of the pure Sisters that resisted corruption on a world that just happens to be under siege from Khornes* forces. Kudos to Mr Ward for writing one of the most subtle pieces of GrimDark undermining the Grey Knights purity one could imagine.;)

*You know, the blood God.

As I said, they'll do whatever is neccessary in order to kill Chaos. If they need the blood of the pure mixed with blessed oils to counteract the daemon-blood, they'll use it. Killing a handfull of Sisters means they can kill a greater daemon? Then they'll do it.

I think the Grey Knights fluff is absolutely brilliant, showing just how GrimDark the 40k universe is. Humanities greatest defenders are willing to kill humanity by the bucket-load in order to do their job? Marvellous, welcome to 40k.

[eldargal]

Well, that is what they want you to think.;)

Seriously though, apart from the fact that the SoB are shown as only marginally more corruptible than th Grey Knights who are basically built to be incorruptible, the fluff isn't at all bad. Inquisitor Valeria could possibly be the one SC I base an army around, if GW release a decent miniature for her promptly.

[wittdooley]

Well, that is what they want you to think.;)

Seriously though, apart from the fact that the SoB are shown as only marginally more corruptible than th Grey Knights who are basically built to be incorruptible, the fluff isn't at all bad. Inquisitor Valeria could possibly be the one SC I base an army around, if GW release a decent miniature for her promptly.

Here Here to that. I'm hoping, and praying, and wishing, and hoping.

Further: What is everyone going to be using for their henchmen? Have you found any sweet non-GW minis that will work for Crusaders, or Mystics? I'm curious to see what everyone else is doing. I have a fun Jokeaero conversion I'll post when I'm finished, but I'd love other ideas!

[DarkLink]

I like most of the fluff, aside from a few details.

[razcalking]

There are no good guys in 40K.

There are only bad guys fighting evil guys.

[Lord Castellan]

Do I have to reply more?


I've read most of the fluff (only the timetable with battles are "saved" for later ^^) and liked all of it. Even the dreaded Draigo pages were written in a way that actually fits in with the 40k universe.

The author has managed to transport the grey knights idea of pure superheroes, miracle crafters and the heirs of the emperors glory into a shell that works in the grimdark future.

What I most like about the new Gey Knight book is the idea that the knights and the inquisition as a whole uses all the tools necessary (including alien technology and even deamons if there are ways to bind them in a save manner) to further their goal of saveing humanity. Even tho they are the strongest icon of imperial believs they themselfes dont share any of that fuzz and just do what needs to be done.



On the topic itself I think you'd have to made a counts-as army. I do see the possibilities of inquisitors or even grey knights realising that chaos is humankinds only saviour from the alien that is tyranids and necrons if you want.

I spoke out of turn. What I meant was I havent read the codex cover to cover, ive just read some, and spoke with others as they read it, so I know what its all about.

And I dont exactly like it.

[Daemonette666]

I have been talking about this idea with a few of my friends eversince I heard Grey Knights were coming out. There is one player in my local club who is outspoken about the "PURITY" of GKs and says I can not create fallen Grey Knights. I decided to use my strongest skills - lateral thinking, and research. I came up with this idea which I originally posted in the Iron Warriors thread. listed later than this one.

He is what I am thinking of. It is a Word Bearer's Army - well sort of a Word Bearer's army. I took the article from the first edition "Lost and the Damned" and "Slaves to Darkness" where they mention the Sensei, The Star Child and the Illuminati . They mention that some of the Emperor's children (born of his own loins before he came to power), chose to not follow him after they found out what the Illuminati had planned for them at the fall of the Imperiium. They chose to follow Chaos and instead of the "Robin Hood" type warbands of Sensei warbands, they lead Chaos Warbands. These Fallen Sensei are known as "Grey Sensei"

The basis for my army is that Fabius Bile (or one of his clones) happens upon on rogue Sensei, and convinces him to agree to Fabius's plan. Together they help out a company size warband of Word Bearer Space Marines who have degenerated so far from their original puristic ideals that they agree to have their gene seed melded with the fallen Sensei's DNA through Fabius's genetic manipulation and powerful Chaos Sorcery he successfully creates the fist batch of new recruits from one of the Word Bearers harvest worlds and the recruits who survive the process gain powers and abilities similar to those of Grey Knights. This particular Word Bearer force has subjugated a Dark Mechanicus planet and as part of their tithe, the Dark Mechanicus who stole the Terminator and Poer Armour STC template when they fled have been making armour that matches and rival that of the GKs.

You can see where this is all going. But what of the GKs Psy weaponry and Force Weapons? Force Weapons are easy to create, and the Psycannon ammunition is created by desiccating and refining the bodies of captured Senseis who the Inquisition have captured/ of some of the Emperor's own tissue. The Inquisition are activity hunting the Sensei as they are freedom fighters on the worlds they inhabit.

How hard would it be for Fabius to get a Pint (600ml) of blood from a sensei now and then, and psychically imbue the bolter and autocannon ammunition with it. Capture a few tanks and vehicle from the battlefield and have the Dark Mechanicus reverse engineer the Assault cannon, the Landraider redeemer, and the Storm Raven, and you have a new Battle company who look similar and have similar weapons to the Grey Knights. Remember the Dark Mechanicus are not limited what they can do or experiment with like the Imperial Mechanicus.

Now before you say it, They are not Grey Knights. They are a Sensei/Word Bearer - hybrid gene spliced army with Dark Mechanicus using reverse technology to forge new equipment/ tanks, they use an old relic STC to create and hone/improve upon Power and Terminator armour/ Artificer Armour, and combat shields, etc.

It is very plausible, and even though it sounds far fetched, this is a sci-fi game, so who really cares. It allows me to run a GK based army list for Word Bearers Chaos Space Marines. I love it, and only one guy at my club hates the idea, but he is a purist Ultra Smurf player.

If you like the idea, use it your selves, and enjoy the taste of vindication as a GK codex based Chaos Army storms onto the field in an Apoc match on the side of Chaos Daemons.

[Daemonette666]

Here Here to that. I'm hoping, and praying, and wishing, and hoping.

Further: What is everyone going to be using for their henchmen? Have you found any sweet non-GW minis that will work for Crusaders, or Mystics? I'm curious to see what everyone else is doing. I have a fun Jokeaero conversion I'll post when I'm finished, but I'd love other ideas!
For Crusaders use Urban Wars Junkers Convict Auxilia. Mystics, well there should be some Psychic/Psyker type minis about produced for other gaming systems.

[HsojVvad]

There is nothing PURE or Noblel when innocents have to die for the "Greater Good". What is this Tau? I guess the nobel part is the SoB dieing but there is nothing PURE about the Grey Knights.

That is a good storry Deamonette666, I like your back story there, very well thought out.

What I don't get is if the GK needed to kill innocents to kill a DP, do they have to do this all the time?

[bonedale]

Not sure why SoB players are getting bent out of shape on the GK fluff. GKs have always slaughtered anyone or anything near chaos and chaos itself. It's been a long time, but didn't the old fluff basically have GKs killing any body exposed to chaos or even exposed to the GKs? Can't remember, but it was over the top I know that.

I think no longer allowing allies helps support this. Although this hurts my exorcists chapter build, but that's another thread.

You have to remember reading the GK fluff that half of man's greatest warriors fell to chaos. The best of the best turned with relative ease. I suppose in a world like that, you might as well assume everyone will fall, so purge them all, the emperor will know his own.

[Daemonette666]

There is nothing PURE or Noblel when innocents have to die for the "Greater Good". What is this Tau? I guess the nobel part is the SoB dieing but there is nothing PURE about the Grey Knights.

That is a good storry Deamonette666, I like your back story there, very well thought out.

What I don't get is if the GK needed to kill innocents to kill a DP, do they have to do this all the time?
Yeah I said my comments on that thread and they were that I no longer cared about GW and their individual author or codex writers "FLUFF" anymore. I am in it for the armies, the miniatures, both to collect and to paint, and I love playing the games and testing my tactics against an opponent.

I also like corrupting the so called good guys, that everyones knows are never really good. Even sisters can be bad in their own way. They will give the "emperor's grace" to someone convicted of cursing the emperor for causing a drought, just as they would one of their own who they thought was turning to chaos. One person's good is another persons evil. I do think that thread about the sisters being sacraficed to provide blood/oil mix for the GKs armour has gone on for too long though.

I have a 5,800 point sisters army that I have assembled and undercoated. I still do not have time to complete them yet. I have too many Chaos Space marines in my 22,000 point Chaos force., and all the contract painting I am doing for my friend and his massive Classic Battletech collection. Sometime I have to sleep, work and get some wargaming in.

But thanks for the feedback on the Word Bearer/Sensei hybrid army. I spent a few days looking up all the info on it before I was sure I had what I needed to make it plausible.

As for allies, they had a way of making an Army just that little bit harder to beat, as you could always get a unit, vehicle or artillery piece to fill in the gaps of your army to match your opponents army. I believe every army should have a flaw that you can exploit if your opponent does not design their army well, and/or use tasctics to off set the weakness.

You should have an idea of what I mean. Tau - close combat. GKs - high points value = too few troops, Blood angels - a combination of too many points in a few characters and units, and they get spread out too much too often, Space Wolves - lack of troop choices and heavy weapons for standard troops. Choas - high points value for their better troops, and enemy can cancel your bonuses such as FNP or AP3 bolters with cover saves. The list goes on.

My fighting style is generally a fluid army that has basic transports for its troops who I select from Noise Marines, and Berserkers, Kharn, sometimes a Daemon Prince, Obliterators, a single possessed Landraider, and if I have points, bikes or raptors to provide a screen or backup strike unit (deep strike icon). This army can go on the defensive, or a combination of take and hold or full assault.

I was planning to build the GK codex based army on this sort of tactical flexability with a Librarian in the mix to cancel psychic abilities, and even if I did not use the Psychic powers -say going against Eldar, I would target the Farseer, and then use them later on.

[DarkLink]

There is nothing PURE or Noblel when innocents have to die for the "Greater Good". What is this Tau? I guess the nobel part is the SoB dieing but there is nothing PURE about the Grey Knights.


The difference between Tau and GKs is that the Tau pretend that it's somehow noble to kill people in the name of the greater good.

Grey Knights on the other hand, are just like "oh, great, if we don't kill every person on this planet, then all 300 Billion people in this whole system die. This sucks". They just do what they have to do.

[wkz]

The difference between Tau and GKs is that the Tau pretend that it's somehow noble to kill people in the name of the greater good.Its all in the matter of perspective: its the greater good for the TAU EMPIRE. The Imperium can go and fly a kite for all the Tau cares... and that's not so different from "We've planted a flag here once!! I don't care if it used to be yours, or is now yours: Its ours forever and ever and ever and ever!!" Imperium...


Grey Knights on the other hand, are just like "oh, great, if we don't kill every person on this planet, then all 300 Billion people in this whole system die. This sucks". They just do what they have to do.
"Alright. Job's done. Oh wait, all 300 billion of you now knows about Chaos? ... ... Alright boys, lets get to work..."

[HsojVvad]

Its all in the matter of perspective: its the greater good for the TAU EMPIRE. The Imperium can go and fly a kite for all the Tau cares... and that's not so different from "We've planted a flag here once!! I don't care if it used to be yours, or is now yours: Its ours forever and ever and ever and ever!!" Imperium...


"Alright. Job's done. Oh wait, all 300 billion of you now knows about Chaos? ... ... Alright boys, lets get to work..."

I can sort of buy the destroy everyone and kill the planet because there is a Tyranid Hive approaching, but that is usually as a last resort, but to do that because they know about Chaos? How is that a last resort?

Also if there is a planet with 300 billion imagine all the pure innocents they could use to purify the GK?

[wkz]

I can sort of buy the destroy everyone and kill the planet because there is a Tyranid Hive approaching, but that is usually as a last resort, but to do that because they know about Chaos? How is that a last resort?

Also if there is a planet with 300 billion imagine all the pure innocents they could use to purify the GK?

This may be old fluff, but the GKs think knowing about/seeing daemons will make you more suspectable to daemonic possession. Thus, "you know, you die" thing the GKs did to the surviving IG regiments back in Armageddon War #1.

Its obviously not a last resort... but I doubt the GKs are the sort to say "Nah, let's leave it. There's a chance that wouldn't happen in the first place... would it?"
*Paladin #1 looks at Paladin #2*
*Paladin #2 looks at Paladin #3*
*Paladin #3 shrugs*
*Paladin #1 sighs*
"Alright boys, cleansing time..."

[DWest]

Similar to Daemonette666, I'm building up a counts-as list using Chaos Marines of a different flavor: Alpha Legion. The army is formed around a Radical Xenos Inquisitor who called for aid in the pursuit of her goals (basically Valeria, but rebuilt from a stock Xenos =I= because I have terrible bad luck with anything which can harm my side. My Vindicator is known as "own goal"). Well, the help arrived, but instead of Grey Knights, she got Alpha Legions who are using a bit of warp trickery to pull the wool over her eyes.

To drive home the subterfuge theme, I'm using Grey Knights models for my Strike Squads, but each one has an Alpha Legion icon somewhere on the body, underneath a couple coats of wash to make it barely visible, and their heraldic shield devices are purple/green instead of red/white. The couple of Jokaero in the unit are replaced by Flamers of Tzeentch, and the =I= rides in a Razorback using bits from a Defiler to give it a Reaper Autocannon turret. I'm running a Callidus Assassin, because that seems to fit the Alpha Legion's MO, and a counts-as Coteaz as the leader of the Alpha Legion contingent (again, rules seem to fit their way of fighting). Will post pics when I get some complete.

[Daemonette666]

Here Here to that. I'm hoping, and praying, and wishing, and hoping.

Further: What is everyone going to be using for their henchmen? Have you found any sweet non-GW minis that will work for Crusaders, or Mystics? I'm curious to see what everyone else is doing. I have a fun Jokeaero conversion I'll post when I'm finished, but I'd love other ideas!
I found a good model for Mystics and it has a pentagram on its hood. The link is below.

http://www.heresyminiatures.com/hv012.htm

I have never dealt with the company, but the picture looks good - and corrupted/evil.

I like DWest's idea about the Alpha Legion pretending to be Grey Knights. Another plausible suggestion, as they could have intercepted a shipment of weaponry or equipment from an imperial transport/black ship.

[WereWolf_nr]

1000 super soldiers
Unless I missed something in my GK codex, GK are one of the chapters that is probably above 1000, along with the Space Wolves and Black Templar.


Would you play me, if I had "Evil" GK?

Of course.

[Daemonette666]

Unless I missed something in my GK codex, GK are one of the chapters that is probably above 1000, along with the Space Wolves and Black Templar.



Of course.
I just went through my GK codex. There are 8 Brotherhoods (companies of roughly 100 warriors each), one for each of the space marines who were chosen by the Malchador to create the Gran Masters (Company Captains) for the Chapter. There is the Supreme Grand Master (Chapter Master) and a small force of specialist such as Librarians, Apocatharies, and Techmarines. In additon to these there are only 2 other types of Grey Knights. Purifiers who rarely number more than 40 who are specialists trained to fill the Chaplain role for the chapter, and lastly the Paladins who are the equivelant of the First company in most other chapters. They are equipped with Terminator armour, and perform the duties of Bodyguard for the Grand masters and Supreme Grand Master. Their numbers therefore could only be between 45 and 90.

Considering the usual ammount of battle losses incurred in a chapter being about 1/4 - 1/3 of personnel in an active campaign or large battle (which GKs seem to be in most of the time), and considering that they are spread thin through out the galaxy they would expect normal losses of personnel. Even if they able to keep a steady resupply of recruits who are tested as Neophytes to finally become fully fledged battle brothers. So many of the 1000's of aspirants would fail the supposedly extreme testing and training regime that only a handful would pass the final tests.

With this in mind, it is resonalble to estimate the Gks wold never have more than the 1000 or so battle brothers that most of the other Space Marine Chapters have.

[DarkLink]

Something else of interest is that GKs get their pick of recruits. Other SM chapters will even ship them outstanding candidates out of respect. Of these recruits, only roughly one in a million will survive their trials to become a neophyte. So each Gk recruit is literally one in a couple trillion at least.

[HsojVvad]

Unless I missed something in my GK codex, GK are one of the chapters that is probably above 1000, along with the Space Wolves and Black Templar.

I am going off Page 7, under The Return, "So it was that a Chapter that had entered the Warp compsed of a mere eight Space Marines and hundreds upon hundreds of untrained recruits, emerged with a full complement of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers.

At this time the mightySpace Marine Legions were in the process of being separated into Chapters according to the precepts of the Codex Astartes."

While I only read a bit more fluff after that, so I don't know if this has changed or not. This is where I am getting that GK are only 1000 SM strong.




Of course.

Thanks, great to know there are people who will. :D

[Daemonette666]

I am going off Page 7, under The Return, "So it was that a Chapter that had entered the Warp compsed of a mere eight Space Marines and hundreds upon hundreds of untrained recruits, emerged with a full complement of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers.

At this time the mighty Space Marine Legions were in the process of being separated into Chapters according to the precepts of the Codex Astartes."

While I only read a bit more fluff after that, so I don't know if this has changed or not. This is where I am getting that GK are only 1000 SM strong.




Thanks, great to know there are people who will. :D
8 Chapter masters and hundreds and hundreds of untrained recruits - How long were they in the warp? It does not mention, it could have been 1,000s of years.

You would either have to assume that he meant thousands and thousands of untrained recruits, and forgot to correct it, or they allowed for the fact that the serfs and population transferred to the Moon of Titan to assist in the process were actually breeding and their off spring who were deemed worthy enough for the testing, would then be selected as recruits. A third option is that they cloned the successful neophytes and created new recruits to start the process over again.

I do not think we are suppose to believe that they used some advance form of magic sorcery to create new recruits from thin air. Cloning can not be relied on or used too much as inherent mutations/gene coding errors are created over time if the process is continually used. This would then create more head-aches for those trying to keep the process running smoothly. So cloning could be a short term method used to (fill the order - 1000 Space Marines - CHECK, 1000 suits of armour - CHECK - - - ).

[HsojVvad]

It doesn't say how long they were in the Warp for, but when the came back from the warp, they came back as 1000 GK SM and I don't recall in any other part of the fluff so far from what I have read, they this ever increased. So they stayed at 1000 GK SM then.

[Daemonette666]

It doesn't say how long they were in the Warp for, but when the came back from the warp, they came back as 1000 GK SM and I don't recall in any other part of the fluff so far from what I have read, they this ever increased. So they stayed at 1000 GK SM then.
Either way, they went in with 8 spacemarines and several hundred recruits, and after unspecified time they came out of warp space with 1000 Grey Knight Space Marines and 8 companies for the Chapter 666 (Slaanesh's number).

I think I will hold off on my Dark Adeptus Mechanicus Army and build the Sensei/Word Bearer army using Grey Knight's codex.

[Wishing]

I think I will hold off on my Dark Adeptus Mechanicus Army and build the Sensei/Word Bearer army using Grey Knight's codex.

This sounds fascinating. A world bearer army with sensei champions? Pray tell more.

[Daemonette666]

This sounds fascinating. A world bearer army with sensei champions? Pray tell more.
Wishing - It is all on page 3 of this thread - the 6th post from the top.

[wolflold]

There are 8 brotherhoods with each a 100 GK! So the GK are only 800 strong! They dont have succesor chapters because they were founded right after the fall of Horus. And i dont think that they would allow "fallen" GK to live, they are trying to keep themself a secret remember, they even kill billions to keep that secret, so why spare renegade GK?

[DarkLink]

No, that's not counting Paladins or Purifiers (so another couple hundred there), or secondary staff like Librarians or Techmarines.

And it's completely 100% clear that there has never, ever, ever been a single Knight that fell to Chaos. That's one of the cornerstones of the GK fluff.

[Daemonette666]

No, that's not counting Paladins or Purifiers (so another couple hundred there), or secondary staff like Librarians or Techmarines.

And it's completely 100% clear that there has never, ever, ever been a single Knight that fell to Chaos. That's one of the cornerstones of the GK fluff.
That is why the storyline I worked out for the Sensei/Word Bearer army, and the other storyline for the Alpha Legion in disguise as Grey Knights are such variable ways to play the Grey Knight codex using Chaos Models.

They are both not Grey Knights, and thus GWs fluff about Grey Knights never falling to Chaos stays intact.

[DarkLink]

Exactly. Though for WYSIWYG purposes you ought to model stuff with combi-bolters and a CCW, which would take some converting from the basic Chaos guys.

[Lerra]

Well, the Imperium says that no GKs have ever fallen to Chaos - but the Imperium also says that the best way for guardsmen to fight Orks is to hug them, Tau tech is inferior to Imperial tech, and Necrons fall over in a light breeze.

Considering the fluff in the new codex, I wouldn't even bat an eye at a Chaos GK army. As far as I'm concerned, there have probably been a lot of fallen GKs/radical GKs but it's been covered up. Not to mention that a large percentage of GK players will probably have elements of radical inquisitors or xenos in their armies.

[DarkLink]

No, the Grey Knights say that. The Imperium doesn't say anything about the Grey Knights because virtually no one in the Imperium even knows they exist.

And GW says that. Quite explicitly.

[Daemonette666]

Exactly. Though for WYSIWYG purposes you ought to model stuff with combi-bolters and a CCW, which would take some converting from the basic Chaos guys.
I intend to use the Grey Knight models shave off green stuff and file off the Inquisition symbols. The I will add a few Chaos Symbols, spikes, and where the book on the shoulder is I will add flames in green stuff. On the other shoulder, I will have the shoulder bare and put the current word bearer's flaming daemon head symbol on it.

The model will be painted half grey and half word bearer's red. The new red colour on the half with the daemon head, the grey colour on the half with the old word bearer's symbol. The I wil have Chaos Space Marine heads/helmets on the models, or add horns and other Chaos add-ons to the model. The same will be done with the inquisitor/sensei model, and retinue.

It will be a huge amount of conversion, but it will look good, providing I can get it how I want it to look.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, that works. I've just seen too many idiots complaining about how "now people can spray paint their Marines silver" and such.