GW switching from metal to resin.

[eldargal]

Yes, really, its been rumoured (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298959) for a while, and confirmed by Harry:


sigur
If that's true this means a massive change. I'm not convinced until we see any facts so let's see. It is a HUGE change.
It is not an April fools joke. (I have known about it for a while it is just unfortunate timing for the rumour to break).
It is really happening.




If what I've been told is correct they are going to be spin-casting the resin using vulcanized silicone molds, the same molds used for metal casting just with a different cutting technique more suited to the flow of resin. We had in the past retrofitted some old molds for metal casting to test out resin casting and they worked fairly well, 3even better with some extra cutting.

So if GW is sticking with this method, and they probably are since spin casting resin is mostly the same as spin casting metal, it also uses much of the same equipment so there would be no extra set-up cost.

If this is correct than they can still use the existing masters to make new molds.

Even is they were to move towards an RTV-type material you could still use the existing masters to make new molds.

There really is no reason for GW to stop making any product because of a change in materials. This is what I heard.




GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.

What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.

The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again All of that sounds right. I have had the same thoughts.

Except the "they have decided to love vets again".

I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years.
To be honest ... I'm gutted.

[TheBitzBarn]

I do not buy it.

The technique is similar so no retooling but the enviromental issue is serious.

I see them ramping up plastics in the future but the main facility is running at 100% right now and they are short on space.

Not opposed to it just not sure this will happen anytime soon

[eldargal]

I have to admit I'm skeptical, but Harry is reliable. They have given themselves three months to burn through old metal stock so we will just have to wait and see.

On the brightside, a switch from expensive metal to much, much cheaper resin makes SGs much more viable. Far lower production costs, higher profit margins on all those metal kits.

[SotonShades]

As someone who seems to buy as much resin as plastic in recent years, I would love this to be true. There is of course the issue of carcenogenic dust and resin being considered a metrial for 'expert' modellers, not to mention warping. I also reckon it would reduce the speciality of Forge World, although it could also increase its accessability as people get more used to working with resin.

[Defenestratus]

Bah that "carcinogenic dust" crap has been a bunch of hogwash :P

I've been building boats for years and breathing in the **** day and night and I'm still kicking.








(But I wear a mask most of the time) :P

[Mr.Pickelz]

I'd love to see more resin models. However, would these resin models be more interchangeable with the plastic kits?

[Xenith]

I'd love to see more resin models. However, would these resin models be more interchangeable with the plastic kits?

About as interchangeable as the early mark armour forge world released. I.e. Totally.

[eldargal]

The resin kits will be identical to the current metal ones, same moulds. They will be easier to convert (in theory) by virtue of being resin. So quite compatible, not like the Dark Eldar range where it is specifically designed into them, but still very compatible.

[Wildeybeast]

I remember reading in WD a while back that whilst they were trying to convert to plastics as much as possible, they would continue to use metal due for some models due to the superior quality of model they can produce (and that its not particularly cost effective to produce sprues for single models that sell in limited qualities).

Now I would prefer resin models to metal as they are eaiser to model with and combine with plastics, but why would GW want the change? I've picked up a few models from Forgeworld now and they are nice enough, but the quality is in no way better than the current metals (and some cases considerably worse due to poor casting). Is this being done for cost reasons? If so will we get cheaper models? ;)

[SierraFiveOne]

I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, resin is lighter, easier to convert, and you can see your mold lines more easily. On the other hand, I've never had a metal model so hideously warped or covered in bubbles that I couldn't fix it in a minute or so (except maybe that blasted Chaos Dreadnought). From what I've heard, resin doesn't do well in heat, either, which isn't good for me as I live in a high desert environment.

If I could be confidant that GW's quality control would be better than that of Forgeword, I might be okay with this. I'd just have to be patient and remember not to leave my models in my car.

[Lane]

I can see this bighting then in the A _ _ in some ways.

Production rate. AFAIK metal minis can be popped out of the molds within a couple minutes. Resin cures in as little as 60 seconds after mixing but if you demold too soon it tends to warp.

Warped models. We like our models to be usable out of the blister. New customers that have to fix something that is new will quit.

Customer complaints that resin models break easily. If the resin is brittle I can see $20 characters shattering if dropped. Swords/ staffs will break frequently.

Mold release. A lot of people do not wash their metal minis before priming. Those same people will not wash their resin models. When paint does not stick they will get pissed off and may quit.

Production cost. RTV molds for resin will cost more than molds for metal. They will also get fewer castings per mold.

Quality control. Even spin casting resin has a chance of bubbles in the cast. It's been years since I saw a mis cast metal model from GW. A bad batch of resin or improper mixing can be disastrous.
Ever seen resin sweat an oily substance from poor mixing or curing? The resin becomes brittle, the oil will melt styrene and is probably toxic. It can take weeks before it starts to sweat so the minis would be on the shelf before the problem was identified.

[SotonShades]

Cheaper? Well I suppose we can dream! The quality of the FW character models is generally quite a bit higher than the GW metals, mostly because the resin can take on much finer details when being cast. I'll agree that a lot of the non-character models/units aren't always as nice as some of the metal models, and the same for some of the convertion kits. As for casting quality, could be an issue but I'm sure GW wouldn't consider switching unless they could at least match the quality of their metals.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the GW design team might be able to do with resin rather than metal.

[fuzzbuket]

does little 7yr old timmy like resin dust?

does his mummy like the big warnings on the side?

think people: whilst itd be nice its not going to happen!

[Lockark]

Instead of traditional resin, could they mean that wired plastic stuff that Privateer press uses?

(I know like, Nothing about their process. Just hopping someone more knowledgeable about this can comment.)

Edit:
Did I bit of Google-ing. I guess the privateer press "plastic" is a kinda of PVC.
=U

[Kawauso]

Whatever happens...

PLEASE LET ME REPLACE MY METAL ZOANTHROPES WITH SOMETHING LIGHTER!

[Wolfshade]

If we can replace our metals with plastics it'll be a huge step forwards, I just hope it will work out cheaper (though I doubt it will) and easier to work with

[GM Rex Nihilo]

but why would GW want the change? I


The Metal material used is MUCH more expensive material than plastic or resin. The real cost in Plastic is in the making of the mold after that they pump them out cheaply.

So to be able to use the older molds formerly used for metal (saving the retooling costs) AND use the less expensive material is Win/Win for GW and by extension hopefully us!

[George Labour]

There're actually several minis companies that produce 'resin' miniatures in preference to metal or plastic. Though to me they appear to be plastic...

Several of the larger heavy gear models are a type of resin, and Flames of war has been making 'resin' tanks for a few years now. So perhaps this isn't going to be quite the same style of resin casting forgeworld does. Especially since the miniatures from those two companies are smaller scales. 12mm, and 15mm respectively.

[eldargal]

The resin GW is going to switch to is the same PP is using, apparently they put in a huge order with the supplier and the supplier told a few people.

It is NOT the same resin FW use, it is far mroe suitable for small, heavy use things than the FW resin.

[Lockark]

The resin GW is going to switch to is the same PP is using, apparently they put in a huge order with the supplier and the supplier told a few people.

It is NOT the same resin FW use, it is far mroe suitable for small, heavy use things than the FW resin.

As in the resin they use for there specialist direct order stuff? Or the PVC they use for there "plastics"?

(Sorry. Maby I'm just a dumbass who can't read your post correctly. lol Just wanted to make sure I was following. Because if we're talking PP's PVC stuff, that this is GREAT news! But.... I don't want to get my hopes up.)

[eldargal]

I assume the PVC stuff PPP use for their plastics, that is what the chap from PP was saying on WArseer (I think).

[elmir]

God I hope they don't switch to the plastics/resin that PP uses. That material tends to be quite brittle and breaks a bit too easily to my liking. I have heard plenty of similar complaints from other PP players, so I wouldn't be jumping for joy if they made that swap tbh...

[Lockark]

God I hope they don't switch to the plastics/resin that PP uses. That material tends to be quite brittle and breaks a bit too easily to my liking. I have heard plenty of similar complaints from other PP players, so I wouldn't be jumping for joy if they made that swap tbh...

When you say that, it tell me you have never worked with Forgeworld, Microart, or any other similar resin products from other companies. I must say. The PVC is a easier material to work with comparatively. Not saying it's the best. Just that I'd rather work with PP's PVC then straight up normal resin, and is not as brittle.

But hey. Maby we might get normal resin in the end anyway. Witch to me that will kinda suck.

[Kawauso]

As long as it's not resin like the kind Forge World uses, it can't be any worse than when you knock over a metal model and the paint chips and shatters to pieces.

[elmir]

When you say that, it tell me you have never worked with Forgeworld, Microart, or any other similar resin products from other companies. I must say. The PVC is a easier material to work with comparatively. Not saying it's the best. Just that I'd rather work with PP's PVC then straight up normal resin, and is not as brittle.



You would be mistaken though... I have worked with FW resin before, and yes, that is even more brittle.

You are correct though, the PP new warjack sets are a lot easier to work on compared to FW resin (never worked on a microart miniature before though). But that still doesn't mean it's an ideal compound. It works quite well on my khador warjacks, but those things are build to be MASSIVE things with thick "details" on them, so yes, that does make things more solid.

I haven't bought any of the smaller, plastic models of the PP range (I still have a boatload of metal mini's to paint up first... :p), so I'm not sure if their compound is "battleproof" on man-sized models. All I'm trying to say is that I personally, am not jumping for joy and shouting halleluja just yet when I hear that GW is considering using the same plastic compound that PP is using. ;)

[Lockark]

You would be mistaken though... I have worked with FW resin before, and yes, that is even more brittle.

You are correct though, the PP new warjack sets are a lot easier to work on compared to FW resin (never worked on a microart miniature before though). But that still doesn't mean it's an ideal compound. It works quite well on my khador warjacks, but those things are build to be MASSIVE things with thick "details" on them, so yes, that does make things more solid.

I haven't bought any of the smaller, plastic models of the PP range (I still have a boatload of metal mini's to paint up first... :p), so I'm not sure if their compound is "battleproof" on man-sized models. All I'm trying to say is that I personally, am not jumping for joy and shouting halleluja just yet when I hear that GW is considering using the same plastic compound that PP is using. ;)

Your... post is confusing me.


All I'm trying to say is that I personally, am not jumping for joy and shouting halleluja just yet when I hear that GW is considering using the same plastic compound that PP is using. ;)

So you would rather see a more traditional resin like other resin miniature manufactures use?

>.>

Because IMHO PP's PVC is a MUCH easier material to work with then normal resin. I also think your over stating the brittleness of the miniatures. Yes. There brittle in the regard then will snap before bending. (unlike hard plastic and Pewter.)

BUT. There rugged enough that they can easily take alot more abuse then a lot of resin figures I've seen, and much more table top friendly. Not to mention if they do break there Clean Snaps. So there pretty easy to fix.


Then again. It could turn out this conversation is pointless as this is only rumor anyway. lol

[elmir]

Oh, sorry for the confusion there.

I'm not trying to say that they should use the FW type of resin on their entire line at all. Like you already said, that stuff is incredibly tricky to work with and not rugged enough imo.

So PP plastics > traditional resin (again: for me).

What I am trying to say, is that I'm not convinced by the PP plastics yet. So if GW does decide to swap their METAL miniature range to the PP style plastics (and not the traditional resin), you will get some other issues (like easy snapping instead of bending).

So PP plastics > tradtitional metal is something I'm not entirely convinced by.

PP plastics works incredibly well for the warmachine line of miniatures. Mainly because their warjacks are pretty massive models, so the advantages like weight reduction and easier assembly are very welcome for those mini's.

However, if you look at the line-up of the current metal mini's of GWs, you'll see that most of them, are man sized models. And the advantages of the PP plastics might not be such a big deal for them, especially when you consider that the biggest drawback of PP plastic is it's easy snapping. I can see that happening a lot quicker on a thin sword/spear/hammershaft/... when you have smaller, man sized model.

Hopefully that's a little clearer then. Anyway, like you said... it might a moot point to debate, because it's just a rumour in the end. :D

[Brass Scorpion]

Metal is no longer very "metal" at GW. ;)

"The times they are a-changin'" -- Bob Dylan

[wittdooley]

Oh, sorry for the confusion there.

I'm not trying to say that they should use the FW type of resin on their entire line at all. Like you already said, that stuff is incredibly tricky to work with and not rugged enough imo.

So PP plastics > traditional resin (again: for me).

What I am trying to say, is that I'm not convinced by the PP plastics yet. So if GW does decide to swap their METAL miniature range to the PP style plastics (and not the traditional resin), you will get some other issues (like easy snapping instead of bending).

So PP plastics > tradtitional metal is something I'm not entirely convinced by.

PP plastics works incredibly well for the warmachine line of miniatures. Mainly because their warjacks are pretty massive models, so the advantages like weight reduction and easier assembly are very welcome for those mini's.

However, if you look at the line-up of the current metal mini's of GWs, you'll see that most of them, are man sized models. And the advantages of the PP plastics might not be such a big deal for them, especially when you consider that the biggest drawback of PP plastic is it's easy snapping. I can see that happening a lot quicker on a thin sword/spear/hammershaft/... when you have smaller, man sized model.

Hopefully that's a little clearer then. Anyway, like you said... it might a moot point to debate, because it's just a rumour in the end. :D

I think it's worth looking at how Kraken Editions did the Alkemy plastics if we're looking at man-sized models. The plastic is very similar to the Privateer stuff (it may even be the same, I don't know) but is able to get a TON of detail.

To be fair, I think the plastic Warcasters in the new battleboxes are really well done, so I don't think a Man-sized mini CAN'T be done.

[PhatCat]

A switch to resin would be disastrous. I hate working with the crap; I would probably resign myself to buying only plastic and converting, ignoring blisters altogether from that point forward. It is THAT much of a pain (and hazard) to deal with from my experience. The PR of having to sell a hazardous material in a market with a large share devoted to children... good luck with that.

To me, all-plastic is the way to go. It's universally loved as a modeling medium. So what's holding it back? The cost? Well, rather than devoting entire moulds to one character, why not put multiple characters on a single mould/sprue and then clip and sell? So instead of (using DE as an example) three different moulds and production runs for an archon, succubus, and haemonculus, you create one sprue with all the options for each, and then clip and sell separately. Same for special characters, maybe you make one sprue with Vect, Duke Sliscus, and Drazhar, then clip and sell. You're tripling your output from a single mould, with limited additional labor that could be automated (clipping sprues into separate characters and packaging) or even not for small runs.

They can do amazing, dynamic models in plastic now (just look at the DE sprues) and converters will take care of the rest with a well-designed kit/model. I don't see how they couldn't make all-plastic work with a redesign of their process versus switching materials to something so fragile and potentially hazardous.

[Lane]

To me, all-plastic is the way to go. It's universally loved as a modeling medium. So what's holding it back? The cost? Well, rather than devoting entire moulds to one character, why not put multiple characters on a single mould/sprue and then clip and sell?

I covered why this would not work well in another thread.

Basic problem is that all the models on a sprue would have to sell equally well. If any component model does not sell as well you have a choice of stockpiling (a bad thing in current business models) or recycling. Unfortunately recycling styrene is not as easy a metal, you can not just throw it back in the pot, most likely they would sell to a recycling company at a loss.

[Kawauso]

While it's true not all characters would sell equally well and this would lead to the problems described above...

Would it not be feasible to sell some super 'character' box for each army, which contained -all- of that individual army's characters in one plastic kit?

Then all anyone would need to fulfill all the SC possibilities in their codex would be one box. And people would love it besides that just for all the conversion possibilities.
Could you imagine what could be done with the bitz from a plastic Calgar + Honour Guard kit?

Now of course, this would run into a different problem, in that it would be hard to add character models to the game because they would have to re-package this 'ultimate' character box.

It would probably make more sense to switch to the 'plastic' blisters, as has been rumoured. Regardless whether it's more brittle than the plastic used for the multi-part kits GW makes now, this is something I would look forward to.

[Lockark]

Oh, sorry for the confusion there.

I'm not trying to say that they should use the FW type of resin on their entire line at all. Like you already said, that stuff is incredibly tricky to work with and not rugged enough imo.

So PP plastics > traditional resin (again: for me).

What I am trying to say, is that I'm not convinced by the PP plastics yet. So if GW does decide to swap their METAL miniature range to the PP style plastics (and not the traditional resin), you will get some other issues (like easy snapping instead of bending).

So PP plastics > tradtitional metal is something I'm not entirely convinced by.

PP plastics works incredibly well for the warmachine line of miniatures. Mainly because their warjacks are pretty massive models, so the advantages like weight reduction and easier assembly are very welcome for those mini's.

However, if you look at the line-up of the current metal mini's of GWs, you'll see that most of them, are man sized models. And the advantages of the PP plastics might not be such a big deal for them, especially when you consider that the biggest drawback of PP plastic is it's easy snapping. I can see that happening a lot quicker on a thin sword/spear/hammershaft/... when you have smaller, man sized model.

Hopefully that's a little clearer then. Anyway, like you said... it might a moot point to debate, because it's just a rumour in the end. :D


So basically what your trying to say in a very lengthy post is.....

You hate both Resin and PVC, and hate the change from metal.

=U


No offense. But that's all you had to say.

I don't think the PVC is better then the metal, but I don't think it's worse. The PVC has both advantages and disadvantages over metal.

-The PVC is lighter and a softer material so easier to work with and convert. Seems to be on par in ability to hold detail, ect.

-Metal is harder to convert, heavier so falls apart easier. But will bend before breaking, meaning they will not snap. (So it's easy to bend a sword stright and what not.)


It's a give and take. So I consider the two about on par.
=U

[Brass Scorpion]

The Norns decree: After the dead reawaken, wait the time Valfather hung upon the Tree for knowledge and then ye shall know the exact fate that is upon Midgard in this matter of disappearing metal. We have decided to declare this fate here rather than on other forums because, lo, the other busier forums have too many "poo-heads".

[Grailkeeper]

I've never worked with resin, I'm mostly afraid of the danger

Sorry one queston- who is Harry? ~I've seen his name used a lot in relation to accurate rumours from another site

[daboarder]

Harry is the pie god, and in 10 years+ in this hobby I don't think I've ever seen anything he's rumored as wrong.

Pie's for the pie god

[chromedog]

PP don't use resin for their 'plastics'. Apart from certain resin terrain that GF9 made under licence, they are metals OR plastics. It's just not the usual polystyrene that modelmakers/gamers are used to. It's a shiny hard brittle plastic called ABS. It looks like some resins, but isn't a resin.
Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
It's the SAME plastic Mongoose used in its plastics for Starship Troopers.
The same kind of plastic used for indoor plumbing in a lot of places (the black piping).

It's related to polystyrene (in that it IS a styrene), but it is harder and more brittle, but can be injection moulded the same way as other plastics and can be cheaper for the raw materials. It's also more resistant to certain solvents (unlike polystyrene) - you need something stronger than diluted toluene or acetone to bond it - which means no to polycement and yes to stronger stuff like Pro-weld or other industrial strength adhesives (polycement is generally a 1% solution of toluene).

You CANNOT use it (ABS) in regular metal spincasting moulds (ABS is not a liquid), but it can be injection moulded OR vacformed.
As for spincasting resin:
While the metal moulds CAN be used for resin casting (Vulcanised rubbers are used for both, it's just that the meta moulds have a higher heat tolerance), it's not usually possible to spincast resin (and I've done production resin casting). Many resins behave in funky ways when forced to move quickly (which is what spincasting does. It forces the molten metal into the bottoms of the moulds using centripetal force.). Many resins, depending on viscosity, actively resist the more force is applied, acting like non-newtonian liquids (corn starch mixed in water acts the same. Hell, just TRY to move quickly in water, the resistance increases the harder and faster you push), which is why they are generally gravity cast and then cured in a vacuum or positive pressure vessel (removes bubbles) and not spincast. The less viscous resins also often have much longer cure times than the more viscous ones.

[Lane]

PP don't use resin for their 'plastics'. ... It's a shiny hard brittle plastic called ABS.
It's the SAME plastic Mongoose used in its plastics for Starship Troopers.


I remember those minis. They pissed off a lot of people because the regulat plastic cement did not work. OTOH I normally use the good stuff so had no problem. As far as being more brittle I'm not so sure. The SST bugs are surprisingly resilient.



As for spincasting resin:
While the metal moulds CAN be used for resin casting (Vulcanised rubbers are used for both, it's just that the meta moulds have a higher heat tolerance), it's not usually possible to spincast resin (and I've done production resin casting).

I have heard of people using silicone RTV molds to spincast water thin resins with 1.5 - 3 minute cure times. IIRC they spin much slower than metal, just not needed and tend to get a lot of leakage.

[synack]

I hate the metal figures, in all sense of the word, hate them. They're heavy, posing them is a nightmare and even just putting them together is a complete pain in the arse, the parts NEVER line up, so you always have to pin or sacrifice a kitten to the pewter gods of GW just to get your figures to stay together. They crack too. I took me 2 days to put together a Hive Guard model, because the joint between the arm and the leg had cracked and I now I had 2 parts to put in place, over the normal one. Not that the normal 1 was much better, with the actual joints never quite making it into the sockets, so I'd have to file away 1/2 of the model just to get them to sit nice.

Oh, lets not forget the price.

I welcome our new resin deities.

[Brass Scorpion]

I've never had all that much trouble with the metal models, but I've definitely gotten tired of the time and effort the multi-part metal minis take to build. With so many projects I much prefer plastic. Faster to build, holds paint better over time, lighter weight, etc. By the way, there is an exact date decipherable in my oracle above.

[miteyheroes]

By the way, there is an exact date decipherable in my oracle above.

You said to wait 9 days after the tomb kings release?

[Lockark]

PP don't use resin for their 'plastics'. Apart from certain resin terrain that GF9 made under licence, they are metals OR plastics. It's just not the usual polystyrene that modelmakers/gamers are used to. It's a shiny hard brittle plastic called ABS. It looks like some resins, but isn't a resin.
Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
It's the SAME plastic Mongoose used in its plastics for Starship Troopers.
The same kind of plastic used for indoor plumbing in a lot of places (the black piping).

It's related to polystyrene (in that it IS a styrene), but it is harder and more brittle, but can be injection moulded the same way as other plastics and can be cheaper for the raw materials. It's also more resistant to certain solvents (unlike polystyrene) - you need something stronger than diluted toluene or acetone to bond it - which means no to polycement and yes to stronger stuff like Pro-weld or other industrial strength adhesives (polycement is generally a 1% solution of toluene).

You CANNOT use it (ABS) in regular metal spincasting moulds (ABS is not a liquid), but it can be injection moulded OR vacformed.
As for spincasting resin:
While the metal moulds CAN be used for resin casting (Vulcanised rubbers are used for both, it's just that the meta moulds have a higher heat tolerance), it's not usually possible to spincast resin (and I've done production resin casting). Many resins behave in funky ways when forced to move quickly (which is what spincasting does. It forces the molten metal into the bottoms of the moulds using centripetal force.). Many resins, depending on viscosity, actively resist the more force is applied, acting like non-newtonian liquids (corn starch mixed in water acts the same. Hell, just TRY to move quickly in water, the resistance increases the harder and faster you push), which is why they are generally gravity cast and then cured in a vacuum or positive pressure vessel (removes bubbles) and not spincast. The less viscous resins also often have much longer cure times than the more viscous ones.

thank you for that.
=)

[Brass Scorpion]

You said to wait 9 days after the tomb kings release?It is good to see that some other people out there still read. Yes, expect an announcement from GW in the middle of May about the big change that is coming.

[Wildeybeast]

While it's true not all characters would sell equally well and this would lead to the problems described above...

Would it not be feasible to sell some super 'character' box for each army, which contained -all- of that individual army's characters in one plastic kit?

Then all anyone would need to fulfill all the SC possibilities in their codex would be one box. And people would love it besides that just for all the conversion possibilities.
Could you imagine what could be done with the bitz from a plastic Calgar + Honour Guard kit?

Now of course, this would run into a different problem, in that it would be hard to add character models to the game because they would have to re-package this 'ultimate' character box.

It would probably make more sense to switch to the 'plastic' blisters, as has been rumoured. Regardless whether it's more brittle than the plastic used for the multi-part kits GW makes now, this is something I would look forward to.

They already have this for the space marine captain, and there is an Empire general box in Warhammer, so they can do it. A librarian one and and a chaplain one would be good, but i don't see them doing an all-in one kit as they have different armour. I also can't see them doing it for all armies due to the cost and effort of producing the sprue and the limited number of sales for some armies.

[Lord Castellan]

Anything to get rid of metal models. The break, pinning is difficult and annoying, they chip like crazy, they dont stand up on terrain, and they are one dimmensional. You cant really do much with them.

For instance I want some of the Sword Brethern models, but I cant really use them all because of their armament which I cant change. If they were plastic, id get the cape bit and still be able to swap in the weapons I need and so forth. Something I really hope changes in the future.

We ar starting to see a serious increase in the ammount of detail they can put on Plastic models, so hopefully metal will eventually become a thing of the past.

[Lane]

Anything to get rid of metal models. The break, pinning is difficult and annoying, they chip like crazy, they dont stand up on terrain, and they are one dimmensional. You cant really do much with them.



One dimensional? There are plenty of examples of metal minis with separate arms that have very dynamic poses. If anything a multi part metal mini could be more dynamic since the spin casting method allows limited undercuts in the model.

Metal minis are not difficult to pin, they just take longer to drill. The harder material also means you are less likely to drill out the side of the bit you are pinning.

If your metal minis are chipping you need to look at your painting method. Wash the mini, prime with a good primer, allow the primer to properly dry, paint the mini, clear coat. Sure if you drop the mini on the floor and the metal bends it will chip but what idiot does that.

[Kawauso]

Some people don't want to clear coat their minis because they don't want a glossy finish or their paint job to yellow with age. :P

Also, dropped minis (or bumped tables) happen, whether you're an idiot or not. A mini doesn't need to fall all the way to the floor to be shattered/chipped. You knock over your well-painted Vanguard Veteran or Zoanthrope even on the table and chances are it's not going to appreciate it.

[wittdooley]

[QUOTE=Kawauso;130125]Some people don't want to clear coat their minis because they don't want a glossy finish or their paint job to yellow with age. :P

[QUOTE]

So thats when you go back over with Dull Coat :)

[Lord Castellan]

One dimensional? There are plenty of examples of metal minis with separate arms that have very dynamic poses. If anything a multi part metal mini could be more dynamic since the spin casting method allows limited undercuts in the model.

Metal minis are not difficult to pin, they just take longer to drill. The harder material also means you are less likely to drill out the side of the bit you are pinning.

If your metal minis are chipping you need to look at your painting method. Wash the mini, prime with a good primer, allow the primer to properly dry, paint the mini, clear coat. Sure if you drop the mini on the floor and the metal bends it will chip but what idiot does that.

Compared to plastic models, very one dimensional. Most of them at least. And just such a pain to deal with.

[Brass Scorpion]

Some people don't want to clear coat their minis because they don't want a glossy finish or their paint job to yellow with age Matte sealer makes things only the slightest bit glossier than without it. That's why it's called matte finish. As for yellowing, I have never had a mini "go yellow", even the ones I painted and sealed 20 years ago. Good quality sealer is also used by artists to seal their canvas paintings, etc. for posterity and it doesn't yellow.


Compared to plastic models, very one dimensional.Single part models, maybe, but that's why so many newer metal models from GW these days are multi-part so that they have dynamic poses. Unfortunately, this means pinning and super glue. If many of those same exact models are going to be produced in a different material that is not polystyrene then nothing about assembling them or how they look will change. They'll still need pins and super glue to assemble them if they are multi-part, while the single piece models will require little work but have flat poses. One thing I did like about single part metal models is that sometimes I could gently bend an arm to reposition it without removing and pinning it back on. That will probably not be at all possible with the new material on the horizon.

[Brass Scorpion]

Interestingly, I don't see changes to the GW website store yet regarding the upcoming shift in product and materials. Even the items just newly listed as OOP are not only still available on the website, but they are not listed as Direct Only yet. I'm guessing they are simply running their stocks down as inconspicuously as possible until the big announcement on May 16.

[isotope99]

Could be a coincidence but I've noticed there are currently no metal models at all included in the tomb kings advance orders, first time I can recall that happening for a full army release but perhaps they will follow later?

[Wildeybeast]

Could be a coincidence but I've noticed there are currently no metal models at all included in the tomb kings advance orders, first time I can recall that happening for a full army release but perhaps they will follow later?

I wouldn't read too much into that. The Tomb kings army has a pretty good range already, hence why there are only three new units currently announced.

[Kawauso]

The Tomb Kings do have a pretty good range, but now that I think on it isotope might have a point...hasn't every other army for the past few years had at least one new metal blister/box with its codex/army book update?

I can't recall exactly for the WFB releases, but Orks just recently had a new character with their update, did they not?

GK have Draigo and Crowe. And the Jokaero.

What was before Orks for WFB? Skaven? They had a couple character blisters, didn't they?

Dark Eldar had a bunch of metal.

I don't really remember what else WFB had...but before DE, Blood Angels had Astorath, a new Lemartes sculpt, Seth...

Tyranids had a handful of metal models, like the Venomthrope (ugh, why is that ******* metal?), Hive Guard and Pyrovore...

[wittdooley]

Orks just had a few metal blisters come out.. Wazzbag or something?

Skaven had quite a few. Packmaster, Squeak, etc.

[Kawauso]

Thanks. :)

But I think the point isotope brought up remains - Orks at least had a few blisters, (as with GK), and Skaven and DE before had quite a few metal models.

This Tomb Kings release has none.

[Lockark]

I also noticed that you get a little plastic Tomb King Hero dude on the plastic sprue in there warsphinx kit. Even thow off topic, that some big props to GW IMHO.

[JMichael]

I have always preferred metal. Other than the nice weight, I find them far quicker to clean and assemble. I see people complaining about them staying together, but I have never had this problem. Large models get pinned and the smaller ones (regular guys) rarely come apart for me.
Plastic seems to take forever to properly de-flash and there's very little room for error with the file.

Anyway, I will miss the metal but have plenty of my own (many lead figures from the RT days...been playing since '89).

[DrLove42]

I like the fact that BoLs has posted this on their front page as an "almost certain it will happen" thing. And everyones commenting on that like the sky is falling on them!

Its not confirmed or denied yet. Personally I'm not sure. To me the cons of resin, what makes it more expensive and hard to work with, seem to overrule the rest.

Only time will tell....

[Brass Scorpion]

Oh, absolutely something different is happening. GW reps recently notified independent store owners telling them not to order any more metal kits and to run down the stock they already have so as not to get stuck with it. Also, to wait for more information to be announced on May 16.

[Docmani]

Something is going on and there is evidence to support the rumor, however it is still just a rumor and not official news, as the BOLS headline suggests.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Oh, absolutely something different is happening. GW reps recently notified independent store owners telling them not to order any more metal kits and to run down the stock they already have so as not to get stuck with it. Also, to wait for more information to be announced on May 16.

That's correct; Maelstrom has taken down all of its metal models (at least in the Dark Elf range).

[juliusb]

Best scenario: Plastic. I'd be glad if they moved towards a "SM Commander" setup: a SW character kit for $33, BA etc. Allows you to make most or all of the characters in a codex in plastic and it might sell enough to justify the mold cost. It could be good business too; let's say it made 3 characters for $33. That's cheaper for the player if he wanted all 3 characters but it also means GW had a guaranteed sale of 3 minis with 1 kit which would be a bonus for them if the player would have otherwise only bought 1 character. Of course players could split the models but the point is that the increased sales of 1 box could perhaps justify the cost of making that mold.

Worst scenario: Resin.

I think a lot of players are in denial about how bad resin is because it's associated with Forge World and is therefor considered "advanced" and cool. I've never had a well-cast resin part and I don't mind heating and bending resin to shape, dealing with absurd mold lines and ill-fitting parts when it's a special piece for my army.

To me the problem is that resin is ok for larger parts but it's just to brittle for small characters. I can live with having 1 or 2 models in resin but if I had full resin squads, I'd go nuts.

Can you imagine Harlequins or other thin models in resin? Talk to a Death Corps player... It comes down to the "chunkiness" of the model; a marine with a boltgun isn't going to break. A marine with a sword is going to break. A squad Swooping Hawks, forget about it! And those DKoK lasguns, ha! I'll let you in on a secret; if a DKoK "internet" player says he doesn't have problems with the models he doesn't really have a DKoK army.

Think about how much you transport armies too. I can see players lovingly placing each and every resin model into their case and carefully removing it for the game. But once the game starts, you see piles of dead models cast to the side and that's just asking for trouble.

[eldargal]

Rubbish, I have a resin female ganger from Trollforged with a thin sword and thin pony tail in a seperate pieces and I've had no problems with it at all. It depends on what resin you use. We can be sure that GW will be looking for a resin that will is non toxic, strong and holds detail wel. Whatever GWs faults it takes the quality of its product very, very seriously.

[isotope99]

They'll be much more careful if it's part of the core range rather than FW as they'll have to be marketed to kids, so toxic or extremely brittle resin won't do. If there's one thing that will enrage parents more than GW's prices it will be when their child snaps their model in half on the way home. :mad:

I think it would have to be a material that works with the existing mould style too. I can't see them recasting moulds for every metal model that they have.

[Necron2.0]

I've played around with casting in resin. There are resins out there that are flexible. Forge World doesn't use them - as juliusb said, I too have had issues with breakage in my Forge World minis. But, I have resin minis from other manufacturers that are quite bendy.

The issue with resin however is it is extremely difficult to work with. It is highly sensitive to changes in heat, pressure and humidity. Even with strict environmental controls it tends to bubble up. From what I understand, the best way to control this is through the use of a pressure/vacuum chamber. I'm not certain if spin casters can reliably solving this problem.

Switching from metal to something else will be like go from a gas engine to a diesel, so if GW actually is going away from metal, they will have to retool the production facilities to some extent. That could mean either buying more injection molding stations for plastic, or developing a reliable resin production capacity. Either way, that is going to spell production delays and price hikes to cover costs.

Frankly, I think this is going to come back to bite GW in the buns.

[Lane]

From what I hear spin casting resin can get results comparable to pressure casting and slightly faster production rate. OTOH it has it"s own set of problems.

One of the other posts mentioned a mix of resin and plastic.

What this sounds like, based on knowledge of resin casting, is that they will use resin with a fine plastic powder mixed in as filler. That would make the resin a bit more flexible, reduce the amount of resin used and make it thick enough to avoid some of the problems of spincasting it.

[Necron2.0]

From what I hear spin casting resin can get results comparable to pressure casting and slightly faster production rate.


Could be. Like I said, I've only played around with it myself - I'm just going by what others have told me. I do know that a couple other manufacturers tried going to resin from metal only to back off it for awhile because it proved more difficult than they thought. Those manufacturers are back in it now, so they must have worked out their difficulties. However, I am going to call total BS on the notion that GW is going to resin because it's cheaper. I've been collecting miniatures from various genres for about 30 years, and resin has always been more expensive than metal. Based on what you can see at HassleFree's (http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=51) website, that seems to still be true even today. I have my own suspicions as to why GW is going to resin, and it has nothing at all to do with either quality or keeping costs down.

[Lerra]

Resin is cheaper to ship in bulk because it weighs so much less. Also, the price of casting metal is going up rather steeply, and if the current rate continues, switching to resin will be a great financial move.

[fuzzbuket]

im calling BS aswell because several times in WD GW has expliucitly said it does metal as you cant get as much detail in plastic.

from experiance with the SH and GK termi kits its true!

both kits (whilst as detailed as metals) have massive flaws (aka the guy with the floor rip in SH has his leg melded to the floor, the I shape on the back of the GK legs is warped, ect,ect)

also think resin= dust = x_x
metal=spiky= ow

-fuzz

oh and the SM commander isnt as detailed as say KAHN!

[Denzark]

Courses of action:

1. All plastic - winner for conversions and cheapness.

2. Resin - Resin dust and advanced modelling techniques means GW are cutting back on selling to little Timmy. Again winner, think how much nicer the average GW store will smell. From Nurgle's toilet to merely Wookiee's armpit.

3. Some other unthought of reason. Maybe they are consolidating all moulds prior to running a full 'every piece available' bitz service?

Any way this is looking good.

[Lerra]

I'll be thrilled if GW switches to the same kind of plastic that Privateer Press uses for its castings. It's non-toxic, doesn't require oil to make, hold detail well, and it's harder and less brittle than resin.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Edit "sorry eldargal noticed you posted that rumor on page 2 didn't see it, please forgive me"

[Galadren]

I'll be thrilled if GW switches to the same kind of plastic that Privateer Press uses for its castings. It's non-toxic, doesn't require oil to make, hold detail well, and it's harder and less brittle than resin.

No. Just...no. I hate PP's resin with a passion. Yes, in solid blocks it's harder, but oon thinner pieces it is flimsy and weak. I have some Menoth Cinerators with swords that have NEVER, no matter what I tried, been straight. If I get them straight they inevitably end up becoming bent again, even while just sitting in foam. I dread the idea of working with more swords worked in that material...

[Lockark]

Eh? Better then being resin with the swords snapping in half every time you even dare TOUCH the model.
>____O

But it's been pointed out it will not be the PP's PVC, since it would not be able to use the same molds as the metals like the rumor suggests. So you got your wish. Enjoy the brittle Resin.

[eldargal]

Anyone know what resin Trollforged miniatures use? I have a female ganger from them that has a thin resin pony tail and a few other thin bits and they are very strong indeed.

[DrLove42]

Post this link here. As it says usual pinch of salt....

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2011/04/metal-models-returning-to-stock.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Faeit212+%28Faeit+212%29

Now while nothing definate, this to me says maybe this resin thing was due to someones misinterpretation of a wierd pull?

[Brass Scorpion]

There's that nasty letter "a" where it doesn't belong again. Finite is the root word of: infinite, definite, definitely, definitive, etc and none of them have an "a" in them.

GW denied they are switching materials and no longer going to be using pewter alloy when their own staff inquired about this rumor recently during the Memphis HQ retail conference. It may or may not turn out to be the truth, but it's definitely interesting that as recently as about 2 weeks ago they denied there will be any such change to their North American staff.

[TheBitzBarn]

I'll be thrilled if GW switches to the same kind of plastic that Privateer Press uses for its castings. It's non-toxic, doesn't require oil to make, hold detail well, and it's harder and less brittle than resin.

That is PVC and yes it uses Oil to produce and does not allow for detail at all and is as brittle as good resin. The PP Plastic is not real plastic it is PVC

Oh yeah NO SWITCH BAD RUMOR

[Asimodeus]

"Note please take the following post with a pinch of salt"

Been in contact today with an associate of mine who owns a FLGS and would like to remain anonymous

he has recently been in contact with GW regarding the replenishment of blisters for the store GW told him that the blisters should be available mid may

the interesting thing he noted was that even though the base product price was the same the Shipping price based on weight was way down.

[Lancel]

Okay, I literally just registered so I could post this. No salt required, this came from GW CS regarding an order I placed.


Hello,

We are currently packing the order you placed with Games Workshop. However; one or more of the item(s) you ordered are currently out of stock and will be on the list that follows. This is a list of all items on back order and when they are due to arrive into our warehouse.

The entirety of your order will be held until the item(s) are in stock. If you want to remove an item from your order so it will ship out sooner feel free to contact us by email or phone at 1-800-394-4263 so we can take care of this for you.

Should you still want an item that is out of stock another order will have to be placed, and they will ship out once they arrive back into our warehouse.

We apologize for this delay.

99060101451 Astorath the Grim 25-Apr
99110102134 Chaos Space Marine Havocs 25-Apr
99110102083 Chaos Space Marines Plague Marines 25-Apr
99110102073 Chaos Space Marines Thousand Sons 25-Apr
99110201210 Chaos Warriors Chosen 25-Apr
99229999100 Citadel Water Pot 25-Apr
99060101395 Crimson Fists Pedro Kantor 25-Apr
99060101327 Dark Angels Company Master 25-Apr
99110112059 Dark Eldar Incubi 25-Apr
99060206086 Deathmaster Snikch 25-Apr
99060104116 Eldar Harlequin Death Jester 25-Apr
99110104113 Eldar Harlequin Troupe 25-Apr
99110104084 Eldar Seer Council 25-Apr
99060107057 Grey Knight Brother-Captain 25-Apr
99060107066 Jokaero Weaponsmith 25-Apr
99060112057 Lelith Hesperax 25-Apr
99110101299 Marneus Calgar and Honour Guard 25-Apr
99060599143 Necromunda: Jakara Spyrer 25-Apr
99110110014 Necron C'tan Nightbringer 25-Apr
99060110010 Necron Immortals 25-Apr
99060110019 Necron Pariahs 25-Apr
99060110021 Necron Tomb Spyder 25-Apr
99060101431 Njal Stormcaller 25-Apr
99060209210 Orcs & Goblins Nasty Skulkers 25-Apr
99060103101 Ork Big Mek 25-Apr
99110103105 Ork Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun 25-Apr
99060103129 Ork Boss Snikrot 25-Apr
99060103111 Ork in Mega Armour with Kombi Shoota-Sko 25-Apr
99060103108 Ork Painboy 25-Apr
99110101394 Space Marine Thunderfire Cannon 25-Apr
99140113016 Tau Crisis Battlesuit Commander 25-Apr
99060113001 Tau Pathfinders 25-Apr
99140113005 Tau XV88 Broadside Battlesuit 25-Apr
99060106062 Tyranid Venomthrope 25-Apr
99110207068 Vampire Counts Black Coach 25-Apr
99060108013 Battle Sisters 29-Apr
99060102118 Chaos Space Marine Obliterator 1 29-Apr
99060112056 Dark Eldar Archon 29-Apr
99110209190 Gnarly Cave Squigs 29-Apr
99110209003 Goblin Wolf Chariot 29-Apr
99060108074 Grey Knight Crusader 1 29-Apr
99060107062 Inquisitor Coteaz 29-Apr
99060101454 Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost 29-Apr
99061102048 Mordheim: Highway Man 29-Apr
99110599005 Necromunda: House Van Saar Gang 29-Apr
99110209191 Night Goblin Squig Hoppers 29-Apr
99110103092 Ork Warlord Ghazghkull Thraka 29-Apr
99060108093 Seraphim Superior with Sword 29-Apr
99069915041 Skulltaker 29-Apr
99140101056 Space Marine Bike Squad 29-Apr
99060101337 Space Marine Librarian with Axe and Plas 29-Apr
99060101338 Space Marine Librarian with Sword and Bo 29-Apr
99060101330 Space Marine Terminator Librarian 29-Apr
99060101236 The Emperor's Champion 29-Apr
99060207123 Tomb Kings Tomb Herald 29-Apr
99060106045 Tyranid Broodlord 29-Apr
99060108082 Witch Hunters Culexus Assassin 1 29-Apr
99060102119 Chaos Space Marine Obliterator 2 20-May
99060107007 Grey Knight Death Cult Assassins 20-May
99060108077 Grey Knight Vindicare Assassin with Exit 20-May
99060110022 Necron Lord and Resurrection Orb 20-May
99069915042 Nurglings 20-May
99110213002 Ogre Kingdoms Tyrant 20-May
99060101396 Ultramarines Captain Sicarius 20-May
99060108073 Witch Hunter Henchmen Dialogus 20-May
99060108079 Witch Hunters Callidus Assassin 2 20-May
99110209109 Goblin Doom Diver 03-Jun
99060101315 Space Marine Chaplain in Terminator Armo 03-Jun
99060101140 Dark Angels Deathwing Terminator Sergean 03-Jun
99110108051 Inquisitor Karamazov 03-Jun
99069915032 The Masque 03-Jun

Sorry for the formating there, did my best, but this is basically a list of stuff out of stock and when they'll be back in stock at GW's US factory. Probably a bunch of this is now visible on the website in a much more vague time table (1-2 weeks is what I see for some of them).

One of the most particularly notable ones (for me and a couple others) is that the basic Battle Sisters are on this list and scheduled to be back Friday. These girls have notably been out of stock since February as I recall. I actually ordered some Battle Sisters a month back (I wanted a couple more blisters so I wouldn't have to use so many pull-grenade-pin-with-teeth Sisters, which is an awesome model I think, but if the squad doesn't HAVE grenades it looks a little silly) but this order did not get the delay treatment. GW just arbitrarily zeroed out the Battle Sister part of the order and sent me the rest of it.

Dunno what y'all may think of it, I just thought the list was spiffy. If my Seraphim Superior is made of something that isn't metal I'll be sure to offer an update. I'll also make note of the copyright on the packaging to verify if this is new production or stuff brought in from somewhere else. Sisters don't get made very often, so if she comes in with a 2011 copyright that will be telling.

[Lockark]

"Note please take the following post with a pinch of salt"

Been in contact today with an associate of mine who owns a FLGS and would like to remain anonymous

he has recently been in contact with GW regarding the replenishment of blisters for the store GW told him that the blisters should be available mid may

the interesting thing he noted was that even though the base product price was the same the Shipping price based on weight was way down.

What I find interesting is if they are going to be making this change as soon as mid may, why haven't they said anything? Even to there retailers?
O.o

No offense. But I will diffidently be taking this with a good pinch of salt.

[Brass Scorpion]

Whether or not it's the material that is changing or just the means of availability of the affected kits, GW has said something to the independent retailers. That's where most of the information on this topic originates.

[eldargal]

Bear in mind the resin change wasn't just some random speculation. Harry 'confirmed' it, another miniature company said their supplier told them about GW ordering up a whole lot of resin, other rumourmongers weighed in in support of it.

But, and this is the bit people seem to have a bit of trouble with, it has always been just a rumour, and rumours aren't real until GW says so.:)

[JxKxR]

Does anyone else think that them changing from metal to resin by mid may seems a little fast for GW? Because I sure do.

[Brass Scorpion]

There's supposedly an announcement coming to the independent retailers in mid-May. That's confirmed by the independent retailers. It's about the only thing that is confirmed at this point from multiple sources.

[Lockark]

The Manager at the LGS assured me that this rumor is correct. Kinda surprised me when he did. When I brought it up, I just mentioned that on message boards people have been saying it has been harder to order a lot of the metal kits lately. I was curious if he was having the same problem.


He then went on or say that he got good word about the switch from Metal to Resin.


Any word on this from anyone eals?

[mulkers]

I am dreading this.

I love the metal minies.

There is something about holding a weightless mini in your hand that is just not right when you consider the price.

Having an army of metal mini's feels MORE like (not exactly like) you have in your possession several hundred dollars of 28mm figs.



As a result of teh announcment, i have bought 30 immortals, 9 tomb spyders, and a few other metals.



As far as price goes, GW's policy would be consistent with plastics; they will charge the same price as metals, despite paling production costs.

The winner will not be the consumer, it will be the share holder, as GW looks to increase profits from dwindling sales

[TheRise]

I work and spend alot of time at an independant stockist. And my boss (as me and him are the only guys who work there) and a great friend. Has had conformation from some contacts at GW that they are moving from metal to resin. At the moment our store is having difficulty getting the Blisters in so "Da Boss" got i contact with GW and they gave the reason that they are no longer selling blisters. but "Da Boss" had known a fair few people in GW for a long time and had conformation that they are moving to resin. Apparently lots of Independants have been told this so they can make arrangements for the switch and notify people who want metal minis that they might have difficulty getting them in.

So tha age of metal has passed, bring on the age of resin.

[Lemt]

I just hope there's a price drop because of this.

[Morgan Darkstar]

I just hope there's a price drop because of this.

I wouldn't hold your breath.

although there should be as Resin is dirt cheap compared to Metal.

[Brad]

I wouldn't hold your breath.

although there should be as resin is dirt cheap compared to METAL.

Fixed for ya:p

[Lane]

I wouldn't hold your breath.

although there should be as resin is dirt cheap compared to resin.

Are you kidding me?

How much resin casting do you do?

The Resin itself may be cheaper by volume than metal but the molds are more expensive, have a shorter life and are more labor intensive.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Are you kidding me?

How much resin casting do you do?

The Resin itself may be cheaper by volume than metal but the molds are more expensive, have a shorter life and are more labor intensive.

No i'm not kidding

i dont do any resin casting, however if the rumours are accurate GW is using its original metal molds with some minor retooling so thats a minimal outlay for a massive reduction in costs for materials.

so to summarise

minimal outlay + cheaper materials + same retail price = higher profit margin

p.s

@Brad, thanks, edited the OP

[Lane]

i dont do any resin casting, however if the rumours are accurate GW is using its original metal molds with some minor retooling so thats a minimal outlay for a massive reduction in costs for materials.
P

Resin sticks to almost everything but silicone. To use the existing (natural rubber most likely) molds with resin they need a mold release. If they miss a spot with the release the resin sticks there and when removed will either damage the mold or leave a chunk of resin in the mold. That results in either less castings per mold, rejected minis at the factory (and you di not recycle resin) or poor quality to the customer.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Resin sticks to almost everything but silicone. To use the existing (natural rubber most likely) molds with resin they need a mold release. If they miss a spot with the release the resin sticks there and when removed will either damage the mold or leave a chunk of resin in the mold. That results in either less castings per mold, rejected minis at the factory (and you di not recycle resin) or poor quality to the customer.

I am sure that if GW are going to do this move to resin, these problems/issues will have been discussed at great length.

it's likley that if the rumours are accurate this has been in the works for upwards of a year so they have had plenty of time to weigh up the advantages/disadvantages.

[pgarfunkle]

I don't know if anyone else has spotted this or even whether it means anything but I was just looking at the new Tomb King models on the GW site and for the models that are being released in a few weeks the material does not appear to be listed. The models that I'm looking at are the small monster types which are normally metal blister releases.
As I said I don't know whether it means anything, whoever uploaded the entries on the site may just not have included the material in the description, I just thought it was odd as it usually is listed.

[FTE-Charge!!!]

On the whole, is resin a strong material for models? I only have exp with small, thin forgeworld bits that break when I look at them.

And what about the dust created? Are they going to warn children to wear masks when hobbying??

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think people are generalising resin to much, there are hundreds of different types and many have different properties - the resin my caster uses for example is far more sturdier and tougher than Forge World's and is a little bendy too with applied pressure. There are Polyester, Polyurethane and epoxy resins. Solarez epoxy resin is quite safe from what I've heard too. So it really depends what resin they will use (assuming they do use resins..) depends on the properties, safety ect.

[Lane]

In general when people talk about Resin in modeling/ gaming they mean polyurethane resin.

IIRC
Epoxy resins are more expensive and have longer cure times, not sure what their shrinkage factor is.

Polyester resin sucks. high shrinkage, longer cure time, brittle, smells bad.

[Docmani]

Saw this over at B&CS


Good news everyone! They are not getting rid of metals, they are not switching to anything else. Metals are not being replaced; metal molds are being replaced.

I talked to my trusted blackshirt today. Everything was taken completely out of context, apparently. They can be considered "rolling brownouts" of metals. Basically for a while each metal model will need to be reduced in numbers and availibility. The list I gave above is simply the current line up that is getting their molds replaced first. Then everything will be back at full production and whatnot.

So rejoice! metals are to stay.


http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=226813&st=82&start=82

Any confirmation of this? It would explain a great deal and would be very good news.

[Morgan Darkstar]

This explanation seems a little off to me.

1) Never believe what a GW blackshirt says :D

2) Replacing moulds! what even for models they have only just released? this doesn't make sense.

Not holding my breath ether way we'll know when gw decides to announce something.

[Docmani]

And on the same thread, Harry from Warseer posts a rebuttle


I have no wish to get into a bun fight with any individual member here.

I wanted to pitch in for those guys in this thread who have placed so much faith in me.

I may be a lone voice saying this but ....

GW is stopping production of metal miniatures and changing to a new material.

The material is a mixture of resin and plastic with some of the best properties of both.



I find that last sentence very interesting.

Well, we shall see what they announce in a week (hopefully).

[Harry]

I think people are generalising resin to much, there are hundreds of different types and many have different properties - the resin my caster uses for example is far more sturdier and tougher than Forge World's and is a little bendy too with applied pressure. There are Polyester, Polyurethane and epoxy resins. Solarez epoxy resin is quite safe from what I've heard too. So it really depends what resin they will use (assuming they do use resins..) depends on the properties, safety ect.
This.

I think the 'new material' and FW resin will be about as similar as two completely dissimilar things.

[DrLove42]

My opinion is wait and see still. GW said they'd talk about it after the 15th? Thats next week.

And the fact that the new DE wave has no metals in it, and theres apparantly another wave to be released for order in the next week or 2...

Exciting!

[lattd]

UK manager meeting is next week so that is when we will learn apparently staff at my local store are unsure what is happening.

[Maelstorm]

The Necron Tomb Stalker is cast in a Resin/Plastic mix - excellent detail, very little flash and very durable.

[Docmani]

What it is really going to come down to is 1) How durable the material is and 2) How cuttable/sandable the material is (for conversions)....

My assumption all along is that GW is not stupid. The material would have to be durable otherwise their product return rate would skyrocket and make the switch not so financially viable.

My real question is how hard the material will be to work with for conversions. Again, I assume GW isn't stupid and knows freaks like me buy several versions of the same model to get parts and bits.

It would be nice to be able to dig out model heads off of terminators without performing the major demoltion involved in doing this with metal. At the same time, if the material doesn't sand/file well, it won't matter. (Again, I'm running on the assumption that GW has considered that)

I am cautiously optimisitic, but we shall see.

[Lemt]

The Necron Tomb Stalker is cast in a Resin/Plastic mix - excellent detail, very little flash and very durable.

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN

Tell us more.

please

[Maelstorm]

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN

Tell us more.

please

I have 3 of the Necron Tomb Stalkers - there are approx. 100 parts in each kit, all seem to be a hybrid plastic/resin material. The material is very durable and has a little "flex" to it (No chipping evident). It is very easy to sand and file. I used CA to bond the parts together - I did not attempt to use standard polystyrene cement (Testors or similar) to secure the parts. Green stuff was not needed to fill in any gaps.

I will grab a couple of the sprues this weekend and see if standard plastic cement works as well as the CA and kicker.

The rules for the Necron Tomb Stalker are still labeled "Experimental Rules Imperial Sanction not yet granted" on the Forgeworld site - I'll take that to mean they are waiting for the "official" write up in the new Necron Codex. A good sign indeed...

[Harry]

Cuts like plastic.
Holds detail like resin.
Slight 'flex' so it won't break so easy.
You can heat it gently and reposition it.
Very smooth surfaces.
Nice to paint.

It is good stuff.

Everyone wins ... except a few old buffers like me who like their metal for sentimental reasons.

[Lockark]

Their are a bunch of rumors going around that GW will be stopping Indi web reatilers such as Maalstorm from Shipping to the southern Hemisphere. (Australia, Brazil, ect.) When ask Maalstorm said they can't talk about anything until the 13th.

Retailer here are told that metal blisters are being repackaged, and the detailed will basically be told to them at the same time.

What a interesting puzzle we seem to have here.
O.o

[Lancel]

Well, if it's to be revealed today, then hey, at least it shouldn't be a mystery much longer.

[Lane]

cast in a Resin/Plastic mix -


I cringe every time I see comments like this.

Urethane Resin is a Plastic.

Plastic is not a material, it's a characteristic.

So the piece is either a resin with different properties than generally used or it is a resin with a filler material such as styrene, ABS or PVC

[Lockark]

Well, if it's to be revealed today, then hey, at least it shouldn't be a mystery much longer.

Erm. That was a typo. Meant to write the 15th. Thow their are some saying it will be annoced the 16th. So needless to say we will know VERY soon.

[Defenestratus]

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN

Tell us more.

please

What he's seen is the typical Forgeworld resin that most of us all know and love to hate.

Plastic glue wont work on it.

[eldargal]

Ok apparently the new material is a resin/plastic called restik/rastok/rastik or something like that (no one seems to spell it consistently). Can't find anything on google though, not that I know what I'm looking for. anyone heard of it?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

This.

I think the 'new material' and FW resin will be about as similar as two completely dissimilar things.

I assumed as much. FW's resin is fine for smaller runs - but it would never be suitable for larger runs like GW would need. Plus, since they love marketing to kiddies - I can't see them using a hazadrous material, as it would be a backstep for them (like going back to lead) and may even lose sales. While I think they make some silly decisions occasionally I dont think they'd make one THAT stupid.

[Kawauso]

When did they step away from lead?
They use white metal for the current metal minis, do they not? White metal contains lead...
You'd still get sick it you stuck a handful of metal bitz in your mouth and sucked on them for a while. :P
Lead poisoning just isn't as bad as people tend to think it is. You need a considerable amount of exposure to lead to get it, and lead eventually filters out of your system on its own. Sure it's worse for kids because they're developing, but everything harmful is.
I mean, you shouldn't let kids put the metal models in their mouth, or let toddlers, etc. play with them, but I'd think that goes without saying.

Forge World's resin, on the other hand, is pretty bad for you if you inhale dust from it - enough so that I agree I don't think they'd want to switch to it. Plus it's just not a very good material with how heat sensitive it is and how many problems I know others as well as myself have had with it (that and FW doesn't seem to have any sort of quality control in place). Whatever GW switches the metal models to, I'm sure it will be better than FW resin.

Somewhat off-topic, but I've heard that FW is using a different resin for some of their newer, more complex/delicate models - namely the Eldar spectres and the Necron tomb stalker - anyone heard anything on this or know about it first-hand?

[Lane]

When did they step away from lead?
They use white metal for the current metal minis, do they not? White metal contains lead...
You'd still get sick it you stuck a handful of metal bitz in your mouth and sucked on them for a while.

They use a lead free pewter.

[Brass Scorpion]

When did they step away from lead?That was back in 1994-1995 starting in the US then moving to the UK and their other markets. I got a lot of cool stuff on sale when they were trying to get rid of all the lead stock.

I haven't shared this before, but supposedly several weeks ago the company that supplies most of the resin used for model kits let slip that GW suddenly went from being a very small customer to being one of their largest customers nearly overnight.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Lead poisoning just isn't as bad as people tend to think it is. You need a considerable amount of exposure to lead to get it, and lead eventually filters out of your system on its own. Sure it's worse for kids because they're developing, but everything harmful is.
I mean, you shouldn't let kids put the metal models in their mouth, or let toddlers, etc. play with them, but I'd think that goes without saying.


Actually take this from someone who did research on the topic, but lead is by no means minor. Even the smallest amount of lead can cause major issues with your cognitive ability, among other things. And no lead doesn't filter out of your system on its own, there is a reason keylation is necessary to remove it from your system if you have lead poisoning.

[Mytaru]

Its kinda official now

Am 28. Mai beginnt die Revolution: Wir bringen "Citadel Finecast" raus. Achtet morgenauf den Newsletter. Wir sehen uns.

On the 28 of may the revolution begins: We will be starting citadel finecast. watch out for the tomorrow newsletter.

This was on the german GW Stuttgart Facebookpage and YES its resin!

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Its kinda official now

Am 28. Mai beginnt die Revolution: Wir bringen "Citadel Finecast" raus. Achtet morgenauf den Newsletter. Wir sehen uns.

On the 28 of may the revolution begins: We will be starting citadel finecast. watch out for the tomorrow newsletter.

This was on the german GW Stuttgart Facebookpage and YES its resin!

I hope its true, I hate working with metal and was dreading using a zoanthrope metal model with that massive head of theirs.

[Lane]

I haven't shared this before, but supposedly several weeks ago the company that supplies most of the resin used for model kits let slip that GW suddenly went from being a very small customer to being one of their largest customers nearly overnight.

What company is that?

[eldargal]

Switch to resin confirmed:

Wie versprochen, für alle die noch wach sind. ;-) Am 28. Mai beginnt die Revolution: Wir bringen "Citadel Finecast" raus. Achtet morgenauf den Newsletter. Wir sehen uns.
http://de-de.facebook.com/GWStuttgart

[Maelstorm]

As a bonus - it's coming with a price increase! And you don't have to "Cringe" at Resin Hybrids :p

Games Workshop Go Resin

http://www.giftsforgeeks.org.uk/blog/?p=570

Starting from the 28th of May 120 products that were Games Workshop direct only items will be coming back on the shelves as resin or resin Hybrids. This new range “Citadel Fine Cast” range will be limited in number for the first few months, so we will be taking advance orders for them.

Here are the new recast products at the full RRP;

41-60 COMMANDER DANTE £10.50
53-60 LOGAN GRIMNAR £14.50
55-61 THE EMPERORS CHAMPION £9.50
48-63 SPACE MARINE CHAPLAIN WITH JUMP PACK £10.50
44-60 DARK ANGELS COMPANY MASTER £10.50
48-61 SM LIBRARIAN IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR £14.50
53-61 NJAL STORMCALLER £14.50
41-61 ASTORATH THE GRIM £12.50
43-60 ABADDON THE DESPOILER £14.50
43-61 HURON BLACKHEART £10.50
50-61 ORK WARBOSS WITH ATTACK SQUIG £14.50
50-63 ORK BIG MEK £14.50
50-65 ORK PAINBOY WITH GROT ORDERLY £10.50
46-61 ELDAR AUTARCH WITH POWER WEAPON £10.50
46-62 THE AVATAR OF KHAINE £22.50
46-63 HARLEQUIN DEATH JESTER £10.50
46-64 HARLEQUIN SHADOWSEER £10.50
47-61 COMMISSAR YARRICK £10.50
47-63 IMPERIAL GUARD LORD COMMISSAR £9.50
51-61 TYRANID ZOANTHROPE £15.50
51-63 TYRANID TYRANT GUARD £15.50
51-64 TYRANID HIVE GUARD £15.50
51-65 TYRANID BROODLORD £15.50
57-61 BROTHER CAPTAIN STERN £14.50
57-60 LORD KALDOR DRAIGO £14.50
57-62 CASTELLAN CROWE £10.50
57-63 INQUISITOR COTEAZ £10.50
45-60 DARK ELDAR ARCHON £9.50
45-64 LELITH HESPERAX £10.50
45-63 URIEN RAKARTH £10.50
45-61 DARK ELDAR SUCCUBUS £9.50
56-60 TAU ETHEREAL WITH HONOUR BLADE £9.50
83-62 CHAOS EXALTED HERO £9.50
83-63 CHAOS KHORNE EXALTED HERO £10.50
86-60 EMPIRE CAPTAIN WITH HAMMER & PISTOL £9.50
92-60 WOOD ELF HIGHBORN WITH GREAT WEAPON £9.50
84-60 DWARF LORD WITH HAMMER & SHIELD £9.50
84-61 DWARF RUNELORD WITH GREAT WEAPON £9.50
90-60 SKAVEN WARLORD £9.50
90-61 QUEEK HEADTAKER £10.50
90-62 DEATHMASTER SNIKCH £10.50
91-61 VAMPIRE LORD £9.50
89-60 GRIMGOR IRONHIDE £10.50
89-62 BLACK ORC BIG BOSS £10.50
87-60 CARADRYAN £10.50
85-61 DARK ELF ASSASSIN WITH TWO HAND WEAPONS £9.50
81-60 MALAGOR THE DARK OMEN £12.50
10-61 URUK-HAI WITH CROSSBOWS £14.00
10-62 URUK-HAI BERSERKERS £14.00
08-61 GOTHMOG (PELENNOR) £20.50
05-60 ELROND AND GIL-GALAD £15.00
10-60 SARUMAN AND GRIMA £15.00
02-60 GANDALF THE WHITE £20.50
04-60 ARAGORN (THE BLACK GATE) £20.50
04-62 THEODEN (HELM’S DEEP) £20.50
04-61 BOROMIR (ITHILIEN) £20.50
09-60 SULADAN THE SERPENT LORD £20.50
08-62 THE DARK MARSHAL (RINGWRAITH) £20.50
05-61 DAIN AND BALIN £15.00
97-60 SKULLTAKER £14.50
48-40 MARNEUS CALGAR AND HONOUR GUARD £36.00
48-41 SPACE MARINE TECHMARINE WITH SERVITORS £25.50
55-40 BLACK TEMPLARS SWORD BRETHREN SQUAD £25.50
48-42 SPACE MARINE STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD £25.50
48-43 SPACE MARINE VANGUARD VETERAN SQUAD £25.50
53-40 CANIS WOLFBORN £30.00
43-40 NURGLE DAEMON PRINCE £21.50
43-41 CHAOS SPACE MARINE RAPTORS £25.50
43-42 DEATH GUARD PLAGUE MARINES £25.50
50-43 BOSS ZAGSTRUK £14.50
50-40 GHAZGHKULL THRAKA £22.50
50-41 ORK TANKBUSTAS £25.50
50-42 ORK BIG MEK WITH SHOKK ATTACK GUN £23.00
46-41 ELDAR RANGERS £20.50
46-42 ELDAR DARK REAPERS £23.00
46-44 ELDAR STRIKING SCORPIONS £23.00
46-40 ELDAR FARSEER AND WARLOCKS £20.50
51-42 TYRANID LICTOR £15.50
51-40 TYRANID HIVE TYRANT £36.00
51-41 TYRANID PYROVORE £21.50
45-40 DARK ELDAR INCUBI £23.00
45-41 DARK ELDAR MANDRAKES £20.50
56-40 TAU SNIPER DRONE TEAM £23.00
83-42 ARCHAON THE EVERCHOSEN £30.00
83-43 CHAOS LORD ON DAEMONIC MOUNT £22.50
83-41 CHAOS DRAGON OGRE SHAGGOTH £36.00
86-41 LUDWIG SCHWARZHELM £22.50
86-40 KURT HELBORG £22.50
82-41 THE GREEN KNIGHT £22.50
82-40 KING LOUEN LEONCOEUR £30.00
92-42 WOOD ELVES TREE KIN £30.00
92-40 ORION KING IN THE WOODS £22.50
92-41 WOOD ELVES TREEMAN £36.00
84-40 THOREK IRONBROW £36.00
84-41 DWARF GYROCOPTER £23.00
84-42 DWARF BOLT THROWER £23.00
90-40 SKAVEN WARPLOCK JEZZAILS £30.00
91-40 VAMPIRE COUNTS VARGHULF £21.50
91-42 COUNT MANNFRED £22.50
91-41 VAMPIRE COUNTS BLOOD KNIGHTS £61.50
88-41 KROQ GAR £40.00
89-44 GOBLIN SPEAR CHUKKA £18.50
89-43 SAVAGE ORC GREAT SHAMAN ON WAR BOAR £15.50
89-41 ORC WARBOSS ON WYVERN £40.00
89-42 GOBLIN ROCK LOBBER £23.00
89-45 GORBAD IRONCLAW £30.00
89-40 AZHAG THE SLAUGHTERER £55.00
85-41 DARK ELVES REAPER BOLT THROWER £18.50
08-40 THE DARK LORD SAURON £25.50
08-42 GULAHVAR THE TERROR OF ARNOR £30.00
08-43 MORDOR TROLL CHIEFTAIN £25.50
02-40 THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING £37.00
97-42 FLAMERS OF TZEENTCH £15.50

[Lane]

anybody have a price list from before to compare these to?

[xxvaderxx]

It could be that i am just THAT plain stupid, but switching from an "expensive" system, to a MORE expensive one to REDUCE cost, just does not add up.

[wittdooley]

It could be that i am just THAT plain stupid, but switching from an "expensive" system, to a MORE expensive one to REDUCE cost, just does not add up.

Yes. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The start up for resin is higher, but the ongoing costs are far less.

So again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Enjoy your higher Argentinian prices.

[xxvaderxx]

Yes. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The start up for resin is higher, but the ongoing costs are far less.

So again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Enjoy your higher Brazilian prices.

1- If the ongoing cost is far less, then what is the point of the rise? are they going to lower the prices once the set up cost is absorbed? i think we can both guess the answer on that last one.

2- Errr... I would enjoy my higher Brazilian prices, the only little problem would be that i am not Brazilian, i know that GW fanboys are not usually into detail, but you might want to check it though.

3- If you find it so offensive people bashing on the overpriced giant of the north, you can skip these posts and dedicate yourself solelly to those whichs main topic is how cheap and fordable this product is.

[wittdooley]

1- If the ongoing cost is far less, then what is the point of the rise? are they going to lower the prices once the set up cost is absorbed? i think we can both guess the answer on that last one.


Because they can.

[daboarder]

Actually take this from someone who did research on the topic, but lead is by no means minor. Even the smallest amount of lead can cause major issues with your cognitive ability, among other things. And no lead doesn't filter out of your system on its own, there is a reason keylation is necessary to remove it from your system if you have lead poisoning.

For someone who supposedly researched the topic you did a wonderful job of spelling Chelation. High school chem/biology doesn't count mate. Do biological inorganic chemistry and then join in. Lead is only dangerous if it can pass the blood/brain barrier and it usually needs to be bound to organic Ligand for that to happen. Not saying its not bad but there are far worse things. Oh and yes your body does remove both Pb and Hg from your system. Watch out for dimethyl Hg though, that will kill you in a year

[wittdooley]

3- If you find it so offensive people bashing on the overpriced giant of the north, you can skip these posts and dedicate yourself solelly to those whichs main topic is how cheap and fordable this product is.

Do you need your miniatures to house yourself?

Do you need your miniatures to feed yourself?

Do you need your miniatures to power your car to get to work?

Did you answer yes to any of those? Didn't think so.



Therefore, miniatures aren't integral to your life and/or survival. If they're too expensive for you now, don't buy them. I never said it was a cheap product, and afford-ability is relative per individual.

People that complain about the costs of luxury products are perfectly entitled to vote with their wallets. In that same regard, those of us that think the product is worth the money will continue to vote with ours.

As for GW: they're entitled to charge what people will pay. Further, their prices aren't that out of line with the industry standards. Do you also begrudge Nike and Adidas for charging $100 bucks for shoes? How about Polo for charging $65 for a shirt?

[xxvaderxx]

Do you need your miniatures to house yourself?

Do you need your miniatures to feed yourself?

Do you need your miniatures to power your car to get to work?

Did you answer yes to any of those? Didn't think so.



Therefore, miniatures aren't integral to your life and/or survival. If they're too expensive for you now, don't buy them. I never said it was a cheap product, and afford-ability is relative per individual.

People that complain about the costs of luxury products are perfectly entitled to vote with their wallets. In that same regard, those of us that think the product is worth the money will continue to vote with ours.

As for GW: they're entitled to charge what people will pay. Further, their prices aren't that out of line with the industry standards. Do you also begrudge Nike and Adidas for charging $100 bucks for shoes? How about Polo for charging $65 for a shirt?

Should i take this as you cant mumber 3?.

[Bigred]

Showed up in the BoLS email box...

GW Finecast Poster

[wittdooley]

Should i take this as you cant mumber 3?.

Absolutely not, because you refuse to accept or address any cogent argument that disagrees with your uninformed opinion.

[daboarder]

I can, Fair trade and consumer protection laws exist in our country for a reason. To stop large corporations using their muscle to both prevent small business distributing to customers (maelstrom in this case) and protect costumer from being charged unreasonable prices for goods (the Australian public). GW has violated these laws with this action.

[wittdooley]

I can, Fair trade and consumer protection laws exist in our country for a reason. To stop large corporations using their muscle to both prevent small business distributing to customers (maelstrom in this case) and protect costumer from being charged unreasonable prices for goods (the Australian public). GW has violated these laws with this action.

You do realize this is akin to yelling "Freedom of Speech," right? Unless you know specifics and can cite particulars, this comment means absolutely nothing.

[daboarder]

You do realize this is akin to yelling "Freedom of Speech," right? Unless you know specifics and can cite particulars, this comment means absolutely nothing.

That would be nice, of course Australia doesn't have a bill of rights so shouting "right to free speech" accomplishes an extra special nothing over here.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

For someone who supposedly researched the topic you did a wonderful job of spelling Chelation. High school chem/biology doesn't count mate. Do biological inorganic chemistry and then join in. Lead is only dangerous if it can pass the blood/brain barrier and it usually needs to be bound to organic Ligand for that to happen. Not saying its not bad but there are far worse things. Oh and yes your body does remove both Pb and Hg from your system. Watch out for dimethyl Hg though, that will kill you in a year

ewww, yeah, no thank you on the dimethyl Hg, taht stuff is -shivers- ive heard of what it can do and it makes me not so happy to think about. I know in the US though lead in any product has been banned for a good while now, decades, and so companies cater to the US market just due to the vast size of said market.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

As for GW: they're entitled to charge what people will pay. Further, their prices aren't that out of line with the industry standards. Do you also begrudge Nike and Adidas for charging $100 bucks for shoes? How about Polo for charging $65 for a shirt?

It must have been so easy to write that from the Northern Hemisphere ;)

[wittdooley]

I empathize, I really do, but at the end of it all, this is a hobby. I sincerely hope that the opening of the Asian factory will reduce prices for you. However, all the vitriol that is being spewed forth is frustrating to me. Again, this is a hobby. Spend your dollars elsewhere if you don't like it. I'm okay with complaining about gas prices because it's a necessity for many of us. But for little plastic dudes? C'mon man.

Seriously, if you're that bothered, the best thing you can do is vote with your wallet. Hell, if you're in Australia, use that dollar to vote for a regionally local company in Battlefront and Flames of War. They're a great company. Further, for all the people that preach from their high horse about supporting their LGS, well, now is the time.

But until particulars on the reasoning behind this ban are released (it's been alluded to that there are import tax issues, etc), all the hate and bile being tossed about is absurd.

I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about plastic, a game, not life or death, a game, but we're talking about Plastic. How silly is that?

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

However, all the vitriol that is being spewed forth is frustrating to me. Again, this is a hobby.

Oh come on, Wittdooley, I've seen some pretty angry posts from you in the last two days. I generally like your posts, and agree with you most of the time, but seriously you're just as emotional as those who are saying they are going to drop the hobby because of this.



I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about plastic, a game, not life or death, a game, but we're talking about Plastic. How silly is that?

That's not your decision to make; this is a forum, for the expression of opinions. I'm f***king frustrated that I will likely be forced to pay for more expensive models. If you can't see how difficult it is to pay almost twice what the Americans do despite us having a better dollar then there's no point in carrying this debate any further.

As I said, you're in the Northern Hemisphere preaching to us about how we should react to a hobby that many of us love. And you know what, I will still buy GW stuff - to be immodest, I'm financially very secure and can afford whatever I want. I love the settings, so I'm still in. Unfortunately, as of today, one of my closest friends is pulling out of the hobby because of the price increase and the embargo. My hobby group is now collapsing. Will I find more players? Absolutely. But I'm pissed off.

Anyway, peace.

[wittdooley]

Farseer--

I just realized part of the disconnect for me and you: the lighthearted references I've put in most of my posts may have been lost upon some of my non-American kin on here. The last line in my previous post, ragarding it being "plastics" is a direct rip off of an infamously funny Allen Iverson line regarding practice.

And you're right: I've been expressive, but I think that's different than emotional. I'd be emotional if something happened to my wife. I'd be emotional if this was something that directly affected the security of my life. This isn't that. Thus, when people respond so violently I think it's worth noting. The vitriol I referred to is all the anger and hate that people are letting fly. I don't think this includes you, or Gotthammer, or any of the other displeased Aussies that have rationally stated their opinion. And therein lies the difference: rationality.

Here are a few truths that I don't want to be confused with the arguments I've been making:

1. The price difference for Australians is unfair, particularly based on the strength of their dollar. I don't have good solutions for this because I'm not an economist. I can say that the AUD is historically high right now. I can say that, based on previous AUD averages, the AUD prices weren't that out of line. Beyond that, I don't have the information to go further into a solution discovery process.

2. GW has the right to charge what they want. Consequently, you have the right to not pay. However, I think it is very worthwhile for us to wait until we find out the full disclosures of the reasoning behind the Wayland/Maelstrom act before we start going all Henry VIII on GW.

3. The internet allows us to be very reactionary. This is a blessing and a curse. It becomes a great sounding board for (occasional) beneficial discourse, but more often--and I'm sure you'll agree--it becomes the world's largest pissing match. That isn't helpful.

4. I want this hobby to grow. I write reviews for the books to encourage others to read them. I've participated in a quality discourse on this board about potential ways to have better starter sets for 40k. I just gave an 18 year old kid a full Lizardmen army so he could play a game he otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford. I'm really an advocate here. But I also believe it isn't fair for so many to be so abusive without having any--forget good--information.

[Docmani]

I saw someone post this on B&CS. I have not used this service, so I cannot endorse it, however it may be a solution for you.

http://www.ukpostbox.com/

Its a UK mailing address that will forward parcels worldwide.

If your gaming group pools its resources and does group buys, it may be worth looking into.

Remember: When they try to game the system, game it back.

[Psychosplodge]

DO NOT WANT.

I liked my shiny metal marines, never got on with resin,