I'm so glad Matt Ward isn't writing Sisters

[Melissia]

Page fifteen of the new GK codex... "The Bloodtide Returns"...


Basically Grey Knights come across a planet with a daemonsword or somesuch, which was corrupting the planet. There was a convent of Sisters whose faith was keeping them pure and untouched by the taint, and instead of asking for the Sisters' assistance the Grey Knights slaughter them all, desecrate the bodies, and then smear the blood of the Sisters all over their armor, then go about systematically destroying everything on the planet and taking the daemon sword for themselves.

Good job Matt Ward, you turned the incorruptible Grey Knights into champions of Khorne and once again used Sisters as a scratching post to kill and toss aside. You sick, demented freak who masquerades as a writer. **** you and everything you stand for.

[Lemt]

Please tell me that's a bad April Fool's joke...

[DadExtraordinaire]

There is every possibility that it could be Matt Ward or Phil Kelly, or.....but unless Melissia you have access and seen information which I haven't....go ahead.....blow a fuse on (and for) nothing but a quote of fiction prose in a fiction book....

[Melissia]

Blow a fuse? lol. I never gave him much respect as a writer even before this.

[Sir Biscuit]

Never thought I'd say this, but I'm 100% in agreement with Melissia.

The sad thing is, Ward wrote very good fluff descriptions for the units in the dex, and it's balanced very well. It's just that damn front fluff section that is... I don't even know what to call it. Abomination, maybe?

What she's talking about it actually only one of a few unreasonable pieces in there. Another that really ticked me off was that the Grey Knights are apparently so serious about keeping their chapter a secret that they killed literally billions of loyal servants and purged entire loyal worlds to stop a couple guys who were in Armageddon from telling people that they exist. What the ****, isn't that the kind of thing they have assassins for?

I'm not going to rant on this more, or I'd just make it a blog post. Hell, maybe I will. But really, do yourself a favor and just cut the first 20 pages out of your GK dex. Standalone, the rest is pretty good.

[razcalking]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason Matt Ward isn't writing a new Sisters codex is because NO ONE is writing a new Sisters codex, correct?

[celestialatc]

I don't want to defend Matt Ward but I can see their reasoning.

The question, how do we have it in the fluff to have Grey Knights fight literally anyone in the 40k universe without just saying that they are corrupt....oh wait, lets make Grey Knights the biggest douches in the universe!

I don't agree with the results but I can see their reasoning. Now the Grey Knights can be the evil bad guys.

[Melissia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason Matt Ward isn't writing a new Sisters codex is because NO ONE is writing a new Sisters codex, correct?

Nope. They began working on the Sisters codex and models six months after they began working on the GK book and models.

[Mr.Pickelz]

My plan.

Take the fluff pages from C: DH and use them to replace the pages in C: GK.:rolleyes:
Because This codex just totally flips Gk's from being the SM to a SM to being just another chapter with cool toys...And that isn't what Grey Knights should be.:mad:

[SierraFiveOne]

I think it's been said before, but I don't think it's fair to make personal attacks on anybody like that. You don't have to like Mr. Ward's writing, but it isn't terribly cool to call him a "sick, demented freak" based on a piece of codex fluff.

[DadExtraordinaire]

Blow a fuse? lol. I never gave him much respect as a writer even before this.

Maybe, that is your view, but on the whole, the majority felt, and I will include myself in that majority, he did an ok piece of work on the SM Codex, certainly the fluff was better than previous.

The only thing that I am still unhappy about is the "let's sit down and have a nice cup of tea and stop this fighting nonsense between ourselves and fight the gribblies" aka chat with the cron half way through a battle.......pleeeeeaaaasssseee (yes maybe with the Eldar, maybe, but the cron, no way).

I will give him respect and maybe you should too, in that he has been able to get his name in print in a sought after publication worldwide and has even got people talking about him on the interweb, and of those people vast majority will think he is an ok guy. That IMHO deserves respect.

[DadExtraordinaire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason Matt Ward isn't writing a new Sisters codex is because NO ONE is writing a new Sisters codex, correct?

Melissia is correct. There is a new SoB codex, so maybe you might want to sit down and think about it....for a moment or two.

[Melissia]

Being able to get your name in print isn't exactly a noteworthy achievement...

[Iceman]

I'm with Melissia. I would also like to point out that there is a significant younger part of the audience reading these codexes. I have two sons who started playing 40K at about age 10. I am not sure that the fluff should be generating the images that Melissia described even if it wasn't misogynistic.

[Grailkeeper]

I always assumed that the little fluff pieces are written by people other than the main author, and he only writes the rules and main fluff pieces. Theres always some that are recycled from old codices.

[Gir]

The only thing that I am still unhappy about is the "let's sit down and have a nice cup of tea and stop this fighting nonsense between ourselves and fight the gribblies" aka chat with the cron half way through a battle.......pleeeeeaaaasssseee


Based on whats been revealed about the new Necron fluff, this makes perfect sense.

Matt Ward's fluff is fine, it just suffers because his writing style doesn't suit what he's trying to portray. Also, he's the best rules writer they have for 40k.

[razcalking]

Melissia is correct. There is a new SoB codex, so maybe you might want to sit down and think about it....for a moment or two.

Alrighty - so who's the author?

[JxKxR]

I haven't read the new grey knight codex, but I have heard horrible things about the fluff and if this is in there then he deserves to have his smart balls kicked into the roof of his smart mouth. Like melissia said that sounds like servants of khorne and how I understand the grey knights they would NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS take a daemon weapon for themselves. They are the hardest of the hard and their devotion to the emperor second to none. I am totally on Melissia's side on this one.

@ SierraFiveOne
Some people might take "Sick, demented freak" as a compliment, like myself.:D

[MaltonNecromancer]

Basically Grey Knights come across a planet with a daemonsword or somesuch, which was corrupting the planet. There was a convent of Sisters whose faith was keeping them pure and untouched by the taint, and instead of asking for the Sisters' assistance the Grey Knights slaughter them all, desecrate the bodies, and then smear the blood of the Sisters all over their armor, then go about systematically destroying everything on the planet and taking the daemon sword for themselves.

Like a father being told his son's just become a Scientologist, I am not surprised, just disappointed.

[JxKxR]

Like a father being told his son's just become a Scientologist, I am not surprised, just disappointed.

DUDE! You just broke my funny bone! I'm seriously tearing up here.

[DarkLink]

This is why I've never taken 40k's fluff seriously. It's corny pulp sci-fi. It's entertaining, but there's a reason I don't read Black Library stuff.

It's kinda ironic that Ward produced by far the best actual rules, but the fluff isn't so great.

[Necron_Lord]

Based on whats been revealed about the new Necron fluff, this makes perfect sense.

Matt Ward's fluff is fine, it just suffers because his writing style doesn't suit what he's trying to portray. Also, he's the best rules writer they have for 40k.

Really? What exactly has been revealed in the new Necron fluff besides what has been published in the latest 40k material? The Damnos Incident where the Ultramarines had a tea party with the C'tan? Oh right, they didn't. The impossible planet in the GK codex? The part where the Necrons slaughtered the Tau after attacking a Tyranid splinter fleet? Seriously, that bit made NO SENSE from the Necron Weltanschauung. The fluff in the BRB says that they don't care about exhaustion and get exterminated in military drills because their programming was so predictable. Seems like a contradiction to me.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Like a father being told his son's just become a Scientologist, I am not surprised, just disappointed.

Funny, I was just thinking how the fluff was as utterly ridiculous as L Ron's writing. Perhaps Mat should check his Thetan Levels.

[Gir]

Really? What exactly has been revealed in the new Necron fluff besides what has been published in the latest 40k material? The Damnos Incident where the Ultramarines had a tea party with the C'tan? Oh right, they didn't. The impossible planet in the GK codex? The part where the Necrons slaughtered the Tau after attacking a Tyranid splinter fleet? Seriously, that bit made NO SENSE from the Necron Weltanschauung. The fluff in the BRB says that they don't care about exhaustion and get exterminated in military drills because their programming was so predictable. Seems like a contradiction to me.

The part where Lords acutally have personality and the ability to make decsions of there own.

And lets be honest, this is way better then the old Necron fluff, which is the worst fluff in the history of GW.

[Lockark]

The part where Lords acutally have personality and the ability to make decsions of there own.

And lets be honest, this is way better then the old Necron fluff, which is the worst fluff in the history of GW.

Don't forget the part were they are now stressing the fact that there use to be thousands of C'Tan, but only 4 of them survive today. Think about that. No matter how minor they were each one of thows C'Tan had there own armies and legions to some extent.

With there C'Tan dead the necrons found them selves master-less, and ambitious necron lords taking charge once they came out of hibernation.

That or they've came out of hibernation not realizing there god is dead, and continue to follow the order he gave before perishing.

The possibilities are endless for necron fluff when you start to think about it in what way.

[Necron_Lord]

The part where Lords acutally have personality and the ability to make decsions of there own.

And lets be honest, this is way better then the old Necron fluff, which is the worst fluff in the history of GW.

I agree about the Lords having more personality, but the bit about them being ancient 'machines' hating all life and the Terminator meets Ancient Egypt aesthetic should more or less stay the same. As for lame fluff, that has to be the Tau. Anime geeks into mecha cosplay. Lame!!!

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

I'm in agreement here with Melissia, serioulsy how can anyone depict the Grey Knights who are supposed to be Champions of Champions, Holy to the soul, uncorruptable blah blah blah, go to a planet and massacre a Convent, gore themselves with blood all over their armour just to reclaim a Daemon weapon and leave no witnesses??
It is sick, despicable, and very wrong on so many ways. You would think he could write better fluff here, why could'nt they do it on there own, not involve the Sisters then just leave...nope they went all Khorne and then say we are rightful.
Ward should be banned from writting fluff.

[Mr.Pickelz]

They should get Dan Abbnet or someone in BL to write the fluff and have ward and them just write the rules.:D

[Lemt]

I think it's been said before, but I don't think it's fair to make personal attacks on anybody like that. You don't have to like Mr. Ward's writing, but it isn't terribly cool to call him a "sick, demented freak" based on a piece of codex fluff.

You're right. It's wrong to call someone a "sick, demented freak" just because he wrote something sick and demented.

[Gir]

I agree about the Lords having more personality, but the bit about them being ancient 'machines' hating all life and the Terminator meets Ancient Egypt aesthetic should more or less stay the same. As for lame fluff, that has to be the Tau. Anime geeks into mecha cosplay. Lame!!!

Tau fluff is actually pretty solid and unique, you're just complaining about the themes of the the army.

[Gir]

You're right. It's wrong to call someone a "sick, demented freak" just because he wrote something sick and demented.

If you think that bit in the Grey Knights fluff is sick and demented, do yourself a favor and never read Chaos Daemons or Dark Eldar.

[eldargal]

I'm with Melissia on this, he clearly doesn't like Sisters much, so he shouldn't be writing their codex. Thankfully we have pretty strong hints that he is NOT writing it. His quote in WD about learning from the GK codex has been interpreted as saying he is working on more Inquisition. But that was a tenuous interpretation and Harry says the projects are seperate,and were underway at the same time. GW doesn't have authors writing ontwo codices at once, not anymore anyway. Cruddace is writing TK so that really only leaves Phil Kelly (god I hope so).

[Gir]

So I read the passage, and this whole thing is blown way out of proportion. NO WHERE does it say they 'desecrate the bodies'. The Grey Knights need protection from the Bloodtide, so they kill the Sisters, and "the innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the grey knights".

People also seem to forget that Grey Knights have a habbit of killing anyone who comes into contact with Daemons. This whole thing seems to be a problem for no other reason then that they're sisters of battle.

[Necron_Lord]

Tau fluff is actually pretty solid and unique, you're just complaining about the themes of the the army.

When the building blocks (themes) are crap, crap can be the only result. I DO hate the theme of the Tau, and therefore I really don't care about them at all. Modeling some Ancient Egypt-like terrain for an army in 40K? Yes, please! The fluff is meh because their codex came out in 3rd edition without having a 2nd edition antecedent.

[George Labour]

To be fair. It was the inquisition that did the purging after the first armageddon war, and they likely are the ones behind the majority of 'justified death's in similar cases. That's been pretty standard for longer than the GK's have been more than five guys you can only use when fighting a chaos army.

Also, there is no pure good in the grim darkness of the nightmare future. That's why it's a nightmare future, and not a rather unpleaseant one until you get used to it and spruce it up with some nifty throw pillows.

I'm honestly surprised people are shocked at how 'unfortunately efficient' the knights are in their duties. It's like they've never heard of Exterminatus before this codex dropped.

Sides, sisters like being martyrs for the imperial cause. It's why they make such good shields from evil.

[SierraFiveOne]

You're right. It's wrong to call someone a "sick, demented freak" just because he wrote something sick and demented.

By that logic, Phil Kelly should be locked up for all that business in the Dark Eldar codex.


Also, I'm looking at the story in question. I see nothing about the Grey Knights killing the Sisters for a Daemon weapon. From where I'm looking, there was a Bloodthirster that was corrupting everyone in the area with a river of blood, including some of the Sisters in question. The Grey Knights killed them, mixed their blood with sacred oils and such, and anointed their armor with it so they could pass through the river of chaosy blood without getting corrupted, allowing them to face the Bloodthirster and stop the daemonic incursion that it brought with it.

They weren't wantonly killing Sisters to get an artifact, they were sacrificing a few to save many, a theme that repeats itself quite a bit throughout the fluff section. It even says later in the book that they would have nuked three companies of Space Marines to stop an incursion had there not been a valuable artifact on the planet. I found this piece to be quite fitting with the rest of the fluff.

Now if you wanted to complain about wonky writing, you'd only need to look further down the page to see Crowe use a vial of the Emperor's tears against Skulltaker.

[Lane]

. Another that really ticked me off was that the Grey Knights are apparently so serious about keeping their chapter a secret that they killed literally billions of loyal servants and purged entire loyal worlds to stop a couple guys who were in Armageddon from telling people that they exist. What the ****, isn't that the kind of thing they have assassins for?


Well that fits the OLD FLUF quite well.

Once upon a time anybody that fought or even saw Daemons was executed or mind wiped. It may have even bee extended to those that came in contact with chaos cultists or saw the corupting power of chaos. At one time Chaos was a dirty little secret that the Imperium would do anything to cover up.

[eldargal]

Yes but Grey Knights have sigils all over their armour and on their skin (from memory) to protect against Chaotic taint, and all of a sudden they need to slaughter some of their erstwhile allies and bathe in their blood? Sorry but that is just rubbish, why does SoB blood have mystical power all of a sudden? Why is it suddenly more powerful than all the other Grey Knight protections? If SoB blood is such powerful anti-chaotic stuff why aren't they filling their flamer bottles with the stuff? Also, what is wrong with just having each sister donate a few pints?

Once a month, every planet with SoB on it is secure from daemonic taint.:rolleyes:

[SierraFiveOne]

Yes but Grey Knights have sigils all over their armour and on their skin (from memory) to protect against Chaotic taint, and all of a sudden they need to slaughter some of their erstwhile allies and bathe in their blood? Sorry but that is just rubbish, why does SoB blood have mystical power all of a sudden? Why is it suddenly more powerful than all the other Grey Knight protections? If SoB blood is such powerful anti-chaotic stuff why aren't they filling their flamer bottles with the stuff? Also, what is wrong with just having each sister donate a few pints?

Once a month, every planet with SoB on it is secure from daemonic taint.:rolleyes:

While I do agree that you'd think they'd have some wards or something for that, I'd guess that their armor wouldn't protect them from concentrated, flesh-mutating blood. Something like getting hit by Gift of Chaos or something, maybe? And somehow all that faith (the purity that lets them use Acts of Faith in-game) can block it somehow when added to the wards?

Even if it didn't work that way, given the Grey Knights track record of killing or mind wiping anyone that catches a glimpse of their super-secret club, I'd wager that the Grey Knights just used the whole "pure blood" thing as an excuse to eliminate witnesses.

I'm reaching, I know. It's not the best piece of fluff in the book, but I think the whole "Emperor's Crystal Tears" thing is way worse. Fortunately, I enjoyed the individual unit fluff much more than the background stuff.

Fret not, Sister players. I'm sure there'll be plenty of glorious murderous purging when they get their new book. Just like I'm sure that the Necrons, an army of killer robots, will get a giant killer robot that can stand toe to toe with the various giant killer robots that the Space Marines seem to keep finding and that the Necrons themselves somehow currently lack. GW wouldn't let me down, would they?

Right?

Guys...?

[weeble1000]

I think the theme, whether or not it is consistent with the fluff, is the sacrifice of the innocent. You know, sacrifice a few to save many. Martyrs dying for the Emperor. It's not exactly a new idea, and it seems to at least make sense in terms of the story. The bodily fluids had symbolic/metaphysical significance based on circumstance. I don't think you're supposed to be able to mass produce martyrdom, bottle it, and load it into a flamer. And who knows what the Warp is capable of or how its manifestations can be fought? It seems that some aspects of the Warp are somewhat predictable, or at least enough so that you can write a book about it and have an army, but at the end of the day it's Chaos. Maybe the Grey Knights' defenses wouldn't work this time and they needed to use their knowledge, experience, and faith the in the Emperor of Mankind to find a solution.

In any event, I think the criticism has been blown a little out of proportion. I do agree that Games Workshop should be more careful about what its authors write in its codices and novels given that the company markets to younger children.

[scadugenga]

Reading through the codex as I type.

Ward's still a complete hack as a fluff writer. His new iteration of "doom/nemesis/psy" everything wouldn't have passed muster at a 10th grade creative writing class. I don't know why the editors at GW give him a pass.

It's ridiculous DC comics-esque writing, and completely out of tune with the rest of the game. It's just as bad, if not more so, than the tragedy that is the naming conventions in the BA 'dex.

And yes, given all the fluff surrounding the GK, particularly that their gene seed is directly from the Emperor, I find it very hard to believe any need for them to annoint themselves in the blood of Sisters, who've already proven to resist the aforementioned taint, just to be able to perservere. I would've thought it even slightly misogynistic, save that Ward spares the rod nowhere else, either.

Though the bit where a bunch of GK, having successfully defeated the Company of Shadow (oooh, boo-scary!) promptly get fusion-bombed out of existence (save for Modrak) by Huron Blackheart, who wasn't even aware they were there. He was hoping to settle his own score with the CoS...amusing.

Now, as a quick aside--I am very put out that inquisitors are an HQ only option...*razzlefrazzleglurbargh*

Edit: This point is only further supported a few codex paragraphs later when the GK's attack Huron's flagship, only to be assisted by the ghosts of their fusion-bombed brethren?!?!?! Utter. Fail.

[Necron_Lord]

Yes but Grey Knights have sigils all over their armour and on their skin (from memory) to protect against Chaotic taint, and all of a sudden they need to slaughter some of their erstwhile allies and bathe in their blood? Sorry but that is just rubbish, why does SoB blood have mystical power all of a sudden? Why is it suddenly more powerful than all the other Grey Knight protections? If SoB blood is such powerful anti-chaotic stuff why aren't they filling their flamer bottles with the stuff? Also, what is wrong with just having each sister donate a few pints?

Once a month, every planet with SoB on it is secure from daemonic taint.:rolleyes:

Not if they were sneaking in some guys into the abbeys ...

Oh, wait! The Emperor is the only man for them, so the thought of them getting pregos is, um, heretical. ;P

[Mr.Pickelz]

Too bad this book wasn't written with the same writing that was in the Omnibus from BL. That had good storys in it, that truely show off what a smart GK can/will do.. AND while they did fight SOB's they eventually befriend them and they both attack chaos.(In truth, the SOB's Cannoness is also to credit with the alliance)

None of this, "Give me your blood! Say wha-(insert killing noises here) Nonsense that Ward seems to think up.

[Lemt]

If you think that bit in the Grey Knights fluff is sick and demented, do yourself a favor and never read Chaos Daemons or Dark Eldar.

The difference is, those guys ARE sick and demented, so that's how you have to write about them. But GKs are not. Sure, you could have them kill Sisters because they had come into contact with the warp and the GKs thought they could be tainted, that kind of **** happens all the time in 40k. But what he wrote they do is something chaos-aligned factions would do, not GK.

TL: DR He wrote non-chaos units doing chaos-y stuff, as if that was "holy". That's sick.

[Fellend]

Personally this all just seems silly.

This is nothing but Melissa and other sister players raging because their sisters get slaughtered for the greater good. (you know what I mean)
Come on, be happy that they are actually mentioned in the fluff at all. And it's hardly misogynic, they kill everyone! Not killing sisters because they are blessed would be alot more misogynic if anything. Playing on the constant theme of girls are holy and pure and always manage to survive, lets get them into the boats first while the men stay behind and die. Can't have it both ways.

And as for them needing the blood of the innocent to stay pure. Well, it's retarded but makes kind of sense. If everything but the sisters had been corrupted there, why not use them as protection? They were probably going to kill them all afterwards anyway. The risk of taint being to high.

Look at it this way. You are going to kill subject A no matter what. Killing him now might grant you +1 against corruption, killing him later might give you a body shield.
You are convinced of your own invulnerability.
What do you choose?

[eldargal]

Er, no we are angry because it makes no sense whatsover, however you try and rationalise it. Grey Knights have been incorruptible since 2nd edition, now all of a sudden they need to kill SoB not to be corrupted? Honestly, one of the biggest retcons of GK fluff there is and people are trying to brush it off because it involves SoB. It's absurd.

Your example makes no sense, SoB aren't civilians or guardsmen, they have never been subject to extermination due to contact with Chaos. Their Faith prevents corruption. So your example really runs like this:

You aren't going to kill Subject A because they are incorruptible. But, you can kill them anyway, bathe in their blood for a little boost against a foe which isn't going to corrupt you, either. Except for the fact you are now bathing in your allies blood like, say, Kharn might do. So hurray, the once incourruptible Grey Knights are now behaving like Chaos Marines just for lulz.

[geisthammer]

All I have to say is, lord kaldor draigo.........omgroflcopter!

[Artein]

"Give me your heart Mortarion! I need to sign it!"
:rolleyes:

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Yeah lets see here, your average grey knight, wears blessed and sanctified armour designed to fight off taint and malign powers, then he adorns said armour with blessed words, scriptors, purity seals and finally they have special hexagramic wards incorporated into every suit. Then you have them with (if i'm right) hexagramic style tattoo's again to ward of evil, taint and unholy suggestions. And finally and most importantly each and every one of said grey knights undergoes years of special training, testing and blessings to strengthen their minds against yes again Taint.

Now explain to me why then, if they are so called uncorruptable and can never be turned would they ever need to bathe in innocent blood to strengthen themselves more? Are they saying they are not strong enough to fight this enemy? IS that doubt i hear, now doubt leads to fear and fear leads to weakness and weakness leads to taint.

So Matt Ward is a hypocritical munchkin who cannot keep his stories straight, needs to make up stupid fluff. Sounds to me and others here that what the Grey Knights did was doubt themselves and slaughter the innocent who just happened to be the one fighting force on the planet who can equal them in Faith, purity and untainted souls. Yet here we read (all because of a munchkin) that they justify themselves killing off SoB so they can claim rights to a Daemon weapon...sounds more again like Taint to me.
Your arguement this is all Melissia's fault and other SoB players like myself are just being "silly" is silly in itself.

[Mr.Pickelz]

As a Grey Knight player myself, the ONLY time I'd ever kill SOB's is when a certain Chaos player throws his Chosen Sisters at my forces.
"They shall be redeemed in fire"

[Fellend]

Look they killed millions of people because they saw them on armageddon. They kill everyone all the time because they want to be kept a secret. Why wouldn't they kill sisters? The only one they are convinced are uncorruptable are themselves.
Sure they sisters might be fine NOW but who says they won't be corrupts (and thus spill the beans on the GK existance) in a week or a month?
And once again, if rolling around in pink paint, doing the macarena and bathing yourself in the blood of the innocent gives you a slight boost against corruption or daemon weaponry. Why not do it? They were going to kill them anyway?

These wards proctects and armor they and hexagrams, and so on and so forth protects. They do not grant invulerability. So a little more protection never hurts
Or to quote Black Heresy: "The Emperor protects, but wearing carpace armor never hurts your chances" (okay so that's a paraphrase but i'm to lazy to look up the quote right now.)

So basically. I see this as nothing more than the same whine that comes from the SM players whenever someone writes a bit of fluff about SM losing. Or the same whine that will come from me once the Black Templar codex finally comes out and it turns out that they now all ride on horses and wield power lances of doom while snacking on space pocky.

[SierraFiveOne]

And once again, if rolling around in pink paint, doing the macarena and bathing yourself in the blood of the innocent gives you a slight boost against corruption or daemon weaponry. Why not do it? They were going to kill them anyway?
\.

Curse you, sir. The image of pink Grey Knights doing the macarena whilst fighting daemons is now firmly embedded in my head.

Well done.

[Lane]

Once a month, every planet with SoB on it is secure from daemonic taint.

Damn, they're all on the same cycle, frightening.

Once a month men on planets with SoB cower in fear. Except flagelants who celebrate.

[JxKxR]

Damn, they're all on the same cycle, frightening.

Once a month men on planets with SoB cower in fear. Except flagelants who celebrate.

Not even orks would be crazy enough to attack at this time of month.

[Melissia]

Meh, try to justify it all you want, it's still a piece of **** fluff bit. Sisters and Grey Knights work together without killing eachother, they're both immensely pure and faithful forces of the Imperium, above and beyond all other forces of the Emperor in incorruptibility (indeed, several official GW sources have stated, in these exact terms, that Sisters of Battle are "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"... yet the only use they have apparently is to be killed and drained of their blood like some vampire flick). They should have teamed up instead of fought-- the Sisters might still have died, but at least it would have had meaning and soul to it instead of just being slaughtered and had their blood painted on the armor of their killers (who might as well be khornate berzerkers given what they did).

GW needs to stop using Sisters as the scratching post of each new codex already...

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I love how no one has commented on how Castellan Crowe is wielding a Daemon weapon with immense corrupting power? Not saying he'd get corrupted, but it completly disagree's with the old ideas of the Grey Knights using "purity" to defeat Daemons... Not join in with the Radical Inquisitors, with their Aliens and Daemon hosts ¬_¬. Which pritty much means this fluff ties in well.. With how crap the rest of it seems to be...

[Kawauso]

Crowe wields a Daemon weapon because it cannot be destroyed, and if it were hidden it would call out to someone to try and corrupt them.

It is trusted to him because he is regarded as pure and incorruptible - he's essentially keeping it out of the wrong hands, and he doesn't use any of its Daemonic powers for fear of what influence it might have over him.

[Connjurus]

Meh, try to justify it all you want, it's still a piece of **** fluff bit. Sisters and Grey Knights work together without killing eachother, they're both immensely pure and faithful forces of the Imperium, above and beyond all other forces of the Emperor in incorruptibility (indeed, several official GW sources have stated, in these exact terms, that Sisters of Battle are "shining examples of all that is good about humanity"... yet the only use they have apparently is to be killed and drained of their blood like some vampire flick). They should have teamed up instead of fought-- the Sisters might still have died, but at least it would have had meaning and soul to it instead of just being slaughtered and had their blood painted on the armor of their killers (who might as well be khornate berzerkers given what they did).

GW needs to stop using Sisters as the scratching post of each new codex already...

Oh right, the bit about them killing another Imperium faction they would've killed at the end of the battle anyway "just to be sure" as they almost always do is bad, but the bit where Grand Master Marty Stu Draigo frolics through the Warp, kicking over **** in Nurgle's Garden and the Crystal Maze is perfectly acceptable.


See what I did there? Army bias is a funny thing.

[Defenestratus]

where Grand Master Marty Stu Draigo frolics through the Warp, kicking over **** in Nurgle's Garden and the Crystal Maze is perfectly acceptable.

I just laughed out loud imagining Papa Nurgle on his front porch with a rolled up newspaper...

"You damn grey knight kids, stop kicking over my garden gnomes of pestilence!"

[Notanoob]

Look they killed millions of people because they saw them on armageddon. They kill everyone all the time because they want to be kept a secret. Why wouldn't they kill sisters? The only one they are convinced are uncorruptable are themselves.
Sure they sisters might be fine NOW but who says they won't be corrupts (and thus spill the beans on the GK existance) in a week or a month?
And once again, if rolling around in pink paint, doing the macarena and bathing yourself in the blood of the innocent gives you a slight boost against corruption or daemon weaponry. Why not do it? They were going to kill them anyway?

These wards proctects and armor they and hexagrams, and so on and so forth protects. They do not grant invulerability. So a little more protection never hurts
Or to quote Black Heresy: "The Emperor protects, but wearing carpace armor never hurts your chances" (okay so that's a paraphrase but i'm to lazy to look up the quote right now.)

So basically. I see this as nothing more than the same whine that comes from the SM players whenever someone writes a bit of fluff about SM losing. Or the same whine that will come from me once the Black Templar codex finally comes out and it turns out that they now all ride on horses and wield power lances of doom while snacking on space pocky.There's nothing wrong with members of the Inq killing allies because they've seen chaos or been tainted. But the problem here is that a. they didn't do it because the Sisters had seen chaos or were tainted, they did it for the opposite reason, they were exceptionally pure b. They bathed in their blood to protect themselves from corruption despite being incorruptible, as mentioned everywhere from 2nd ed to even in the same codex, with mere Justicares surviving untainted in demonworlds and not a single GK member ever falling to chaos, they are incorruptible period, they don't need extra help, thus the lack of Chaplains c.They could have just teleported/taken a thunderhawk straight to the Bloodthirst instead of wading through the bloodtide and 'risking' corruption, and they're no good reason to kill the Sisters now, as there was no one to spill the beans too, the GKs could have just had them rush the BT with them and then kill them afterwards.

[Connjurus]

I just laughed out loud imagining Papa Nurgle on his front porch with a rolled up newspaper...

"You damn grey knight kids, stop kicking over my garden gnomes of pestilence!"

Then he turns into Clint Eastwood.

"Get off my lawn."

[Notanoob]

Crowe wields a Daemon weapon because it cannot be destroyed, and if it were hidden it would call out to someone to try and corrupt them.

It is trusted to him because he is regarded as pure and incorruptible - he's essentially keeping it out of the wrong hands, and he doesn't use any of its Daemonic powers for fear of what influence it might have over him.Except, you know, all GKs are incorruptible and so it's a lot better idea to keep the damn thing hidden in the depths of Titan where no non-GK would ever got close to it, than give it to a guy who can't seek protection by hiding in a squad an can only ever do anything in CC, who will rush at the enemy and corrupt them (it's in the special rules, he buffs his enemies), potentially dying and handing over a powerful demon weapon. While it's not impossible for a GK to hold the sword and defend himself with it, it's dumb that he'd keep risking it in combat and not hide it somewhere safe. It's heresy by means of stupidity.

[Kawauso]

The whole 'all GK are incorruptible' thing is standard 40k hyperbole. I don't have trouble believing that no GK has ever fallen to Chaos...

...But do you somehow think that makes it easier for them? They are tempted just like everyone else - the only difference is that they're able to withstand that temptation. Doesn't mean it doesn't wear on them and make their lives miserable.

Also, there would have to be plenty of non-GK people on Titan - Space Marines have tons of serfs and servants who do all they **** they don't want to do/don't have time for. And why would you trust the weapon there as opposed to -with- Crowe so that he knows where it is at all times?

Honestly, I think you're being way too nit-picky. :P

And with regards to the whole original post...
Well from what I've gathered about this fluff entry regarding the Sisters, it doesn't sound God-awful. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. I mean, I'm not saying it sounds amazing or anything, but it sounds like standard 40k "this **** is so crazy!!!" dialed-up-to-11 you're-reading-our-codex-look-how-awesome-we-are fluff. News flash: every codex does this.

There are plenty of situations where the GK would have worked with the Sisters, I'm sure. They do in the GK omnibus. This wasn't one of those times.

Am I the only one who doesn't regard every new piece of fluff (including those written by Ward) as a complete travesty? No, not all of it's perfect, but I sure as hell don't get worked up nearly to the point of an aneurysm over it...

[Connjurus]

The whole 'all GK are incorruptible' thing is standard 40k hyperbole. I don't have trouble believing that no GK has ever fallen to Chaos...

...But do you somehow think that makes it easier for them? They are tempted just like everyone else - the only difference is that they're able to withstand that temptation. Doesn't mean it doesn't wear on them and make their lives miserable.

Also, there would have to be plenty of non-GK people on Titan - Space Marines have tons of serfs and servants who do all they **** they don't want to do/don't have time for. And why would you trust the weapon there as opposed to -with- Crowe so that he knows where it is at all times?

Honestly, I think you're being way too nit-picky. :P

And with regards to the whole original post...
Well from what I've gathered about this fluff entry regarding the Sisters, it doesn't sound God-awful. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. I mean, I'm not saying it sounds amazing or anything, but it sounds like standard 40k "this **** is so crazy!!!" dialed-up-to-11 you're-reading-our-codex-look-how-awesome-we-are fluff. News flash: every codex does this.

There are plenty of situations where the GK would have worked with the Sisters, I'm sure. They do in the GK omnibus. This wasn't one of those times.

Am I the only one who doesn't regard every new piece of fluff (including those written by Ward) as a complete travesty? No, not all of it's perfect, but I sure as hell don't get worked up nearly to the point of an aneurysm over it...

Actually, the reason Grey Knights are now incorruptible is because the psychic runes they have inscribed on their bones burn so hot the Grey Knights explode when they're in danger of being corrupted. Seriously. So I think they put the blood on their armor as protection against turning the entire Grey Knight force on the planet into popcorn inside their armor.

[Tynskel]

hahaha!

Overall, I don't know why people are complaining about the fluff. It is Awesome!

Grey Knights are WELL known for killing everything.
Hellz, they have an Apoc formation that states when there are no more chaos, they start killing everything else.

Let none who have seen the Daemon live.

[Kawauso]

Actually, the reason Grey Knights are now incorruptible is because the psychic runes they have inscribed on their bones burn so hot the Grey Knights explode when they're in danger of being corrupted. Seriously. So I think they put the blood on their armor as protection against turning the entire Grey Knight force on the planet into popcorn inside their armor.

I never thought about it quite like that.
This actually makes a good deal of sense. :)

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

That whole arguement that Crowe has to wield the weapon so no one else uses it to be corrupted is a petty excuse to make them sound cool that is all. If the weapon was that dangerous to store,throw it into a sun. It wont matter if it's a daemon weapon or not, it would be destroyed, if for some cosmic Matt Ward reasoning it would'nt be well atleast no one would ever be able to retrieve it then.
Saying he needs to weild it as he is purer than others and he is doing it for humanity is just LAME.

Matt Ward is a hack of a fluff writer, rules lawriter maybe worthwhile. But writting fluff that ever changes, makes lame story arcs or comes up with 3rd grade writting material is poor quality for GW to allow. GK's wielding chaos weapons, yet they are immune RIIIiigggggt.

[Image]

Honestly, I tend to agree with Melissia on this. It's not enough to have a lapse in judgement for the GK, but they have to victimize another incorruptible ally (unless they retconned the whole "Allies" rule from previous editions. :P). To me, it's a shame that by virtue of Sisters being all women, they are often seen as victims by virtue of their gender when they come against these super-manly warriors. As I haven't read the fluff, I wonder if it describes the sisters fighting back (or did they not have a fighting chance, according to the fluff?) or if the GK simply massacred them.

Unless Ward further explained the possible repercussions of this (e.g. did the GK feel justified? Did the sisters find out elsewhere?) there's no reason to victimize the sisters like that instead of some other on-the-spot civilization/bloodline that's incorruptible. At worst, the writing is misogynistic. At best, it's lazy.

Again, I haven't read it, but after reading the entirety of this thread the only reason I can see that would be at all worthwhile mentioning is Tynskel's, regarding the GK's secrecy. But, honestly, they're hardly secret to the likes of Sisters and other SM chapters, right?

[George Labour]

Couple things to some other posts here.

Sisters of battle "are shining icons of all that is good in humanity" By the standards of the Imperium's Ecclesiarchy. You know, the religious arm of the most brutal, destructive, and hard pressed regime in human history, that has this seeming obsession with putting crackers in people's mouths and then lighting them on fire. They're not icons of goodness in a context we'd easily recognize. Perhaps a debate for another day though.

As for Crowe. Crowe is of the purifier order, and they mostly just hang around near the bottom of titan keeping some ancient maguffin in check, and beating up mischievous neophytes. They're not all being constantly flung into combat on a daily basis in glorious last stands, fluff makes it fairly clear they're rarely sent out en masse. So there's the disconnect between the tabletop and the fluff.

Kind of like how Creed doesn't really go to every company level infantry battle the guard wages.

[DadExtraordinaire]

I'm with Melissia. I would also like to point out that there is a significant younger part of the audience reading these codexes. I have two sons who started playing 40K at about age 10. I am not sure that the fluff should be generating the images that Melissia described even if it wasn't misogynistic.

iceman - my point was not what he wrote. I understand what you are saying as I am father too, however, I treat 40K and the fiction with it as though it should be for a more mature audience. However, if you feel strongly about what Matt Ward has written take it up directly with GW HQ on +4411591400000. I have seen other GW authors used the term desecrate before and the DE codex goes one step further with the imagery around murdering babies in the DE codex?! So, should we call time of Phil Kelly as well?

I have empathy for what you are saying, life is a minefield, and we as parents, guardians of our beloved flesh and blood, must guide them safely through that minefield and ensure they keep on the right path.

[TheBitzBarn]

I think the New codex Fleshes out the chapter WAY BETTER and they are seen and Pragmatist in defense of the Imperium and the Sisters are the Purticanical line so I could disagree with you more the nEw Fluff Rocks

[Gir]

I'm wondering how many people who are complianing about this sister thing have actually read the passage. The sisters where NOT immune, the just endured. Grey Knights needed a way to protect themselves so they could go fight the Bloodthirster causeing the problems.

This is all just army favorotism by those opposed to it. The sisters where dead either way, as they had been exposed to nine days of Daemonic taint. Grey Knights have wiped out whole systems for less.

[eldargal]

Except that ignores the whole 'SoB are not corruptible and don't get subjected to the same treatment as IG and civilians when exposed to taint' thing. What is next? GK slaughtering Space Marine chapters for fighting Chaos? Look at armageddon (or was it duringthe Black Crusade), the civilian populations cleansed, tainted SM chapters that the SoB were hunting down, the SoB were not cleansed. You have the most loyal, incorruptible servants of the Emperor being reduced to a buff for the sodding Grey Knights for no good reason, that is against all previous fluff.
Fact it this is the most absurd piece of fluff in the book. You have the incorruptible killing the incorruptible to bathe in their blood like bloody Khorne worshippers. Try and rationalise it all you want by making nonsense up about the SoB forfeit anyway, but the fact is that has never been the case. The fluff makes no sense, what the GK did makes no sense, why they did it makes no sense. Why not ask for a few pints of blood then work with them?:rolleyes:

So, lets see the Grey Knights exterminating the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves etcetera each time they fight Chaos, because that is the same level this is at in terms of logic. So have never been subjected to cleansing before for the same reason GK aren't. To havve this retconned to make the GK seem even more special is just despicable.


So just to be clear:
SoB were not going to be cleansed, because they are never cleansed.
The whole reason the GK killed them was because of their purity.
The GK bathed in the blood of the pure.
If the GK needed the blood to stay incorrupible, then the SoB are less corriptible than they.
So why not send them against the taint you can't defend against?

So many holes in this rubbish, it makes Draigo look positively rational.

[Connjurus]

So just to be clear:
SoB were not going to be cleansed, because they are never cleansed.
The whole reason the GK killed them was because of their purity.
The GK bathed in the blood of the pure.
If the GK needed the blood to stay incorrupible, then the SoB are less corriptible than they.
So why not send them against the taint you can't defend against?

So many holes in this rubbish, it makes Draigo look positively rational.

They were doing it so they wouldn't explode.

Also, no, it does not make Draigo look rational. Nothing can make Draigo look rational.

Edit: Also, Sisters of Battle have been corrupted in the fluff. Debate the fluff all you want, but they have been.

[eldargal]

Yes, a few SoB. Compared to half the Space Marines and their primarchs falling to Chaos. So lets purge the Space Marines everytime they see a daemon. This is just another example of Wards Marine fell-atio, except in this case it goes against the whole purpose of the SoB. Namely providing a counterpoint to the Space Marines. Marines are superhuman but corruptible, SoB are just human not virtually incorruptible in comparison.

I really, really hope we see SoB purging Marines and Grey Knights in the next codex.

Atleast Draigo was doing what GK are supposed to do. He wasn't bathing in the blood of innocent allies.

[Connjurus]

Yes, a few SoB. Compared to half the Space Marines and their primarchs falling to Chaos. So lets purge the Space Marines everytime they see a daemon. This is just another example of Wards Marine fell-atio, except in this case it goes against the whole purpose of the SoB. Namely providing a counterpoint to the Space Marines. Marines are superhuman but corruptible, SoB are just human not virtually incorruptible in comparison.

I really, really hope we see SoB purging Marines and Grey Knights in the next codex.

A few Sisters of Battle compared 0 Grey Knights. ;)

[eldargal]

Well, apart from those washing in SoB blood and worshipping Khorne, yes.:rolleyes: Also going by canon, just one SoB. It still doesn't explain why it is ok to purge SoB but not Space Marines when half of those fell to Chaos. Like I said, marine fell-atio.

[George Labour]

They don't usually exterminate marines as they're to rare and hard to make, same with titans. Instead the 'average' marine get a choice between a thorough mind scrubbing, or a double tap to the back of the head. That's all dependent on the nature of the threat and their exposure to it though.

Incidentally there's an entry in the codex for just such situations.

I'm sure there's instances where the influence of the daemonic was dealt with so quickly and quietly no one had to be purged, even if some of the forces involved saw the knights taking out the warp spawn. It's just the things like armageddon that stand out as a way of showing that our purest of the pure are quite capable of horrible things in the name of survival and safety.

Also kind of mentioned in the Codex at least once.



Again, it's a nightmare future of grim dark faery tales armed with lasers, not Star Trek. The good guys do some horrific and questionable things without a second thought because the alternative really sucks. Seriously what do you expect from people who have mottos like 'suffer not the alien, the witch, nor the heretic to live'? Incidentally, that's a common motto for the Adeptas Soriritas and other church members.

I'm now getting the feeling many are reacting simply to react and not actually considering the fluff in the intended context, nor any previous information on similar matters.

Also forgot to say two more words

Goge Vandire.

[Connjurus]

Well, apart from those washing in SoB blood and worshipping Khorne, yes.:rolleyes: Also going by canon, just one SoB. It still doesn't explain why it is ok to purge SoB but not Space Marines when half of those fell to Chaos. Like I said, marine fell-atio.

Well, they do purge them, just going by canon, and people will probably start foaming at the mouth when I say this, it takes a lot more resources to purge a Marine company than a similarly sized contingent of Sisters. I remember from the Ultramarines series by McNeil, Ventris goes through all those trials. Admittedly the Sisters weren't given the same chance, but I also think there's a lot more tension between the Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle than other Imperial forces - the whole Ordo Hereticus v. Ordo Malleus thing. I'd wager they come into conflict quite a lot.

Then again, what do you consider Canon? There's just not enough information in the codecii alone to make a story. Black Library reliably (for the most part) fills in those gaps.

[eldargal]

Its not about GrimDark, its about flying in the face of existing fluff. The GK are supposed to be incorruptible, the SoB are nigh incorruptible. The GK have never had to bathe in the blood of innocents in a nonsensical fashion (SoB blood remains pure in the face of chaotic taint but GK don't, so they need the blood?!) before. It is ABSURD, everything about a Grey Knight is designed to repel Chaos, and then, whoops, lets kill some girls and paint blood on ourselves because those 666 rites of initation, decades of intense training, genetic enhancement, the Emperor's own geneseed, runic armour, runic tatoos etcetera, etcetera aren't enough. Sorry but its just pure bollocks that messes with both GK and SoB established fluff.

Canon is BRB and codices, BL is secondary canon, licensed products tertiary canon. There was plenty of fluff in the 2nd ed SoB codex as well. SoB get treated very poorly by BL.

Hell, if the GK had turned on the Sisters after winning to cleanse all who were exposed to the darmonic taint I would be less upset as that at least would make more sense from a pragmatic point of view. Even if it did go against the fluff about SoB not being cleansed.

[Connjurus]

Its not about GrimDark, its about flying in the face of existing fluff. The GK are supposed to be incorruptible, the SoB are nigh incorruptible. The GK have never had to bathe in the blood of innocents in a nonsensical fashion (SoB blood remains pure by GK don't?!) before. It is ABSURD, everything about a Grey Knight is designed to repel Chaos, and then, whoops, lets kill some girls and paint blood on ourselves because those 666 rites of initation, decades of intense training, genetic enhancement, the Emperor's own geneseed, runic armour, runic tatoos etcetera, etcetera aren't enough. Sorry but its just pure bollocks that messed with both GK and SoB established fluff.

Canon is BRB and codices, BL is secondary canon, licensed products tertiary canon. There was plenty of fluff in the 2nd ed SoB codex as well. SoB get treated very poorly by BL.

I'll admit, they do get the short end of the stick. This is also a bit of fluff that confused me, but to me, being a Chaos player, Dragio's fluff was the only part that actually made me 'rage' - carving his name in Mortarion's heart, and walking through the Crystal Maze and Nurgle's Garden without a blemish? Without dying?

[eldargal]

Quite, and that is what this fluff does for SoB players. You get your Daemon primarchs thrown around like little girls, our little girls get killed for no good reason by people who shouldn't have needed to kill them in the first place. Its just stupid.:rolleyes: I honestly don't know why GK players are defending this, following the logic of the piece SoB are now more incorruptible than Grey Knights because Grey Knights need their pure blood to go up against Daemons.

[Connjurus]

Quite, and that is what this fluff does for SoB players. You get your Daemon primarchs thrown around like little girls, our little girls get killed for no good reason by people who shouldn't have needed to kill them in the first place. Its just stupid.:rolleyes: I honestly don't know why GK players are defending this, following the logic of the piece SoB are now more incorruptible than Grey Knights because Grey Knights need their pure blood to go up against Daemons.

It's okay, we're both getting new codecii soon, and then our fluff can be a "No YOU suck more!" right back at the Grey Knights. :P

[JxKxR]

It's okay, we're both getting new codecii soon, and then our fluff can be a "No YOU suck more!" right back at the Grey Knights. :P

Yeah I can't wait for the new Tau codex and in the fluff Draigo get's killed by a gun drone.

[Connjurus]

Yeah I can't wait for the new Tau codex and in the fluff Draigo get's killed by a gun drone.

Only very mildly related, but I once killed an Avatar of Dawn of War: Dark Crusade with a crap-ton of Gun Drones. It was pretty funny.

[Asimodeus]

its funny to see people dancing to mellisa's tune again.


You sick, demented freak who masquerades as a writer. **** you and everything you stand for.

seriously its fine that you dont like the fluff, but that kind of personal attack is going to far!


As for lame fluff, that has to be the Tau. Anime geeks into mecha cosplay. Lame!!!

A Tau Hater how unusual.


Ward's still a complete hack as a fluff writer. His new iteration of "doom/nemesis/psy" everything wouldn't have passed muster at a 10th grade creative writing class. I don't know why the editors at GW give him a pass.

It's ridiculous DC comics-esque writing, and completely out of tune with the rest of the game. It's just as bad, if not more so, than the tragedy that is the naming conventions in the BA 'dex.

i didn't realise 40k had won so many literary awards lately? if you think you can do a better job go write to GW and ask for a job.


Matt Ward is a hack of a fluff writer, rules lawriter maybe worthwhile. But writting fluff that ever changes, makes lame story arcs or comes up with 3rd grade writting material is poor quality for GW to allow. GK's wielding chaos weapons, yet they are immune RIIIiigggggt.

see above.


Well, apart from those washing in SoB blood and worshipping Khorne, yes.:rolleyes: Also going by canon, just one SoB. It still doesn't explain why it is ok to purge SoB but not Space Marines when half of those fell to Chaos. Like I said, marine fell-atio.

as opposed to SoB cunn-ilingus

is it just me or am I the only one tired of this Matt Ward is S**T in every other 40k Thread?

[Connjurus]

its funny to see people dancing to mellisa's tune again.



seriously its fine that you dont like the fluff, but that kind of personal attack is going to far!



A Tau Hater how unusual.



i didn't realise 40k had won so many literary awards lately? if you think you can do a better job go write to GW and ask for a job.



see above.



as opposed to SoB cunn-ilingus

is it just me or am I the only one tired of this Matt Ward is S**T in every other 40k Thread?

Nice first post, bro.

[Asimodeus]

Nice first post, bro.

Thanks

Been following bols for a while I Just got a little tired of all the Ward hating going on.
He's not the greatest writer in the world but he's doing his job and deserves some respect for that.

[eldargal]

I don't hate Ward, his rules are fine apart from the odd piece of silliness (deep striking land raiders) and his fluff by and large isn't as stupid as people like to make out. Except in this case, and Draigo, both of which are just ridiculous. You have a GK Grandmaster beating two Daemon primarchs in their own realm and basically taking on the entire Warp. Then you have the supposedly incorruptible Grey Knights needing to daub themselves with the incorruptible blood of the SoB. So now the SoB are less corruptible than the Grey Knights. And instead of just saying 'We need you sisters to become martyrs for the cause', they murder them. Because, you know, Sisters have no interest in being martyrs.:rolleyes:

Having said that, I liked the pragmatism with Crowe's daemon weapon, I love the fluff for Inquisitor Valeria and on the whole I feel he did a good job fleshing out the Grey Knights.

Ward gets a hard time because the online community needs its whipping boy. It used to be Cavatore and Thorpe, now it is Ward and Cruddace. That doesn't mean that some don't things warrant criticism.

[Asimodeus]

I don't hate Ward, his rules are fine apart from the odd piece of silliness (deep striking land raiders) and his fluff by and large isn't as stupid as people like to make out. Except in this case, and Draigo, both of which are just ridiculous. You have a GK Grandmaster beating two Daemon primarchs in their own realm and basically taking on the entire Warp. Then you have the supposedly incorruptible Grey Knights needing to daub themselves with the incorruptible blood of the SoB. So now the SoB are less corruptible than the Grey Knights. And instead of just saying 'We need you sisters to become martyrs for the cause', they murder them. Because, you know, Sisters have no interest in being martyrs.:rolleyes:

Having said that, I liked the pragmatism with Crowe's daemon weapon, I love the fluff for Inquisitor Valeria and on the whole I feel he did a good job fleshing out the Grey Knights.

Ward gets a hard time because the online community needs its whipping boy. It used to be Cavatore and Thorpe, now it is Ward and Cruddace. That doesn't mean that some don't things warrant criticism.

Hi eldargal,

I wasn't trying to single individuals out more the thread as a whole, plus quoting you allowed for a naughty reference. :D

Criticism of Matt Ward is fine, he's went a little over the top with some of the fluff, and bits of it may not make sense. but 40k has always been like that. I just object to out & out personal attacks against people.

[Notanoob]

The whole 'all GK are incorruptible' thing is standard 40k hyperbole. I don't have trouble believing that no GK has ever fallen to Chaos...

...But do you somehow think that makes it easier for them? They are tempted just like everyone else - the only difference is that they're able to withstand that temptation. Doesn't mean it doesn't wear on them and make their lives miserable.

Also, there would have to be plenty of non-GK people on Titan - Space Marines have tons of serfs and servants who do all they **** they don't want to do/don't have time for. And why would you trust the weapon there as opposed to -with- Crowe so that he knows where it is at all times?

Honestly, I think you're being way too nit-picky. :P
What, so having it with Crowe and letting the weapon corrupt all of the chapter serfs onboard the ship is any better? No, the most logical place to put the blade is in a deep vault of Titan and to guard it with some Librarians and Purifiers.

And if you look it up, you'll find that there is no hyperbole, no Grey Knight has every fallen to chaos. Ever.

And just another note, if the bloodtide was so damn corrupting, why not just fly over it in a Thunderhawk or use your damn teleporters?

[JxKxR]

It just doesn't feel like he sat there and actually gave it any thought. That's why people are getting passionate.

[Fellend]

There's nothing wrong with members of the Inq killing allies because they've seen chaos or been tainted. But the problem here is that a. they didn't do it because the Sisters had seen chaos or were tainted, they did it for the opposite reason, they were exceptionally pure b. They bathed in their blood to protect themselves from corruption despite being incorruptible, as mentioned everywhere from 2nd ed to even in the same codex, with mere Justicares surviving untainted in demonworlds and not a single GK member ever falling to chaos, they are incorruptible period, they don't need extra help, thus the lack of Chaplains c.They could have just teleported/taken a thunderhawk straight to the Bloodthirst instead of wading through the bloodtide and 'risking' corruption, and they're no good reason to kill the Sisters now, as there was no one to spill the beans too, the GKs could have just had them rush the BT with them and then kill them afterwards.

As I said before, it is badly written fluff, like most of the things in GK apparantly. But it certainly does not justify the crap spewed forth out of especially Melissas mouth. (sick demented freak in particular I feel is insanely childish when it's about a world where... well, blood for the blood god is a phrase used every second somewhere in the universe)
Maybe the new codex has made them slightly less incorruptable? Maybe all that daemon weapon usage and daemon host co-operation is starting to take it's toll? Lets face it, the whole current age is about the decline of the Imperium, it's getting crushed on all side, the golden throne is malfunctioning and so on and so forth. Why wouldn't the incorruptability of the GK being questioned?

As someone pointed out Crowe isn't using the daemon weapons powers because he is afraid that it will corrupt him. Maybe it's as simple as GK is not corruptable because they know how to avoid it and they make sure to take appropriate countermeasures no matter how brutal these countermeasures maybe? AKA slaughter SOB. Not to mention that there is actually established fluff that the blood god and thus i'd assume blood protects from psychic effects, yes?

The only reason anyone complains is that it's SOB that happened to be killed, which is quite established that they would die anyway. So I'm really not seeing any complaints other than omg, omg, my favorite army got the sharp end of the stick in a bit of fluff WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[George Labour]

Humanity must dominate everything to ensure the survival of the species...no matter the cost.

I'm pretty sure the witchhunters codex is chock full of quotes expounding just such an ideology. If not, I know Blood of Martyrs (Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas supplement for Dark Heresy) and countless other publications do. Anyone remember some of the fun statements from Inquisitor?

That's why the inquisition, and the grey knights exists. Heck, that's why the imperium itself exists. It's just a vast machine that takes in resources, and spits out just one more day without oblivion.

Oh, and it was the blood of the faithful used to counter an ocean of blood and daemons. This wasn't just some bloodletters draining corpses, it was an apocalyptic level event. Old Testament style stuff.

[scadugenga]

I think the New codex Fleshes out the chapter WAY BETTER and they are seen and Pragmatist in defense of the Imperium and the Sisters are the Purticanical line so I could disagree with you more the nEw Fluff Rocks

If you think the new fluff rocks, then you seriously need to start reading books in the adult section of the bookstore/library. :)

I've read better stories by my old uni roommate--as I was attacking them with the Red Editing Pen of Doom. (tm)*

Ward writes pretty decent rules for the most part. But he could arguably be described as the "C.S. Goto" of the codex fluff/background writing world.


Well, apart from those washing in SoB blood and worshipping Khorne, yes. Also going by canon, just one SoB. It still doesn't explain why it is ok to purge SoB but not Space Marines when half of those fell to Chaos. Like I said, marine fail-atio.

There, fixed it for you.

Personally, I don't know what's more idiotic from the GK codex fluff: Modrak's "ghosts," Draigo's "I-am-better-than-everyone!" story, or this.

It's a trifecta of stupid.


*He once wrote the sentence "as he traveled through the dull, gray lifeless verdant forest." /headdesk

[George Labour]

40K lore has always been a hodgepodge of stupid ideas with a vague history to sew it together. It's just gotten more grimdark since its original inception.

[Connjurus]

Personally, I don't know what's more idiotic from the GK codex fluff: Modrak's "ghosts," Draigo's "I-am-better-than-everyone!" story, or this.



Personally, I think Mordrak's ghosts are pretty cool.

[scadugenga]

If it was even remotely coherent, well-thought-out grim dark, then I'd be a lot less critical.

However, it appears someone raided his comic collection from the 1980's for a hodge-podge of...stuff.

I'll just leave it at that.


Personally, I think Mordrak's ghosts are pretty cool.

And to each his own. :)

Personally, I think it's a cheesy LotD ripoff, with even less rationality. At least the Fire Hawks (if one is to believe all the intimations down through the years) were lost to the warp before resurfacing as the mysterious Legion of the Damned.

Modrak's ghosts? They got fusion bombed. Huron nuked the site from orbit. No warp involved. A mundane, if sad, pathetic way for our heroes to get snuffed. The very fluff of the whole 40k universe clearly states that human psyche (soul) don't have the "oomph" to maintain coherency post death. They dissolve back into the warp.

But somehow these guys not only have the ability to maintain their sense of self post-mortem, but they can even rematerialize and affect the physical world around them?

Shyah....riiiiight.

[Connjurus]

If it was even remotely coherent, well-thought-out grim dark, then I'd be a lot less critical.

However, it appears someone raided his comic collection from the 1980's for a hodge-podge of...stuff.

I'll just leave it at that.


Well, that's not fair. Some of the things are a little...odd, but most of 40k's fluff is actually pretty damn cool.

[George Labour]

And if Felix and Gotrek can survive everything they've gone through, armed with nought but dwarven stubborness and Felix's whininess I'm sure some over 9000 level Grey Knight can survive some time in the warp.

After all, if time doesn't flow as it should there then he's obviously not been there that long. Plus he's probably imagining half of what he beats up.

[George Labour]

If it was even remotely coherent, well-thought-out grim dark, then I'd be a lot less critical.

However, it appears someone raided his comic collection from the 1980's for a hodge-podge of...stuff.

I'll just leave it at that.

That's because they did.

For example an official titan legion is.....the Legio Metalica.

Space elves use gender bending cosplay to enhance their martial arts.

Screaming really loud and hitting things over the head, is the hallmark of the galaxy's ultimate native lifeform. Who are also part mushroom.

[scadugenga]

Well, that's not fair. Some of the things are a little...odd, but most of 40k's fluff is actually pretty damn cool.

I'm not attributing the comic-comment to the whole of 40k fluff--I also think much of it is pretty damn cool.

That comment was directly relating back to Ward's fluff-writing ability. :)

[eldargal]

Are you even paying attention? The issue isn't that the SoB were killed, its that the GK needed the incorruptible blood of the SoB in order not to be corrupted. If you are fine with Grey Knights being more incorruptible than SoB that is fine, but don't pretend to makes any kind of sense. And don't bring fanon about the SoB being cleansed into it either, it's both wrong and irrelevent.

This isn't about GrimDark, it is about the established canon of both the GK and SoB being thrown out of the window for no good reason. I look forward to seeing the first Khornate Grey Knight armies.:rolleyes:

I don't share Melissia's opinion of Ward, but you can't blame her for being upset over a piece of fluff that not only paints SoB AND GK in a very poor light, makes no sense and invalidates a whole chunk of Grey Knight fluff. It is nonsensical. Saying someone doesn't like it just because their army gets the short end just makes you look like a prat.



The only reason anyone complains is that it's SOB that happened to be killed, which is quite established that they would die anyway. So I'm really not seeing any complaints other than omg, omg, my favorite army got the sharp end of the stick in a bit of fluff WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[scadugenga]

That's because they did.

For example an official titan legion is.....the Legio Metalica.

Space elves use gender bending cosplay to enhance their martial arts.

Screaming really loud and hitting things over the head, is the hallmark of the galaxy's ultimate native lifeform. Who are also part mushroom.


Okay, I don't see anything wrong with Legio Metalica? Not sure where your point is with that.

"Gender bending cosplay" You'll have to elaborate a bit further on that. It makes no sense. The eldar Warrior Paths are much more closely related to Chinese Shaolin animal style martial arts. With the exception of throwing in some mythical references (EG Howling Banshees) this can be viewed as a direct interpretation of a historical system of combat revisioned into a sci-fi setting.*

Screaming really loud before hitting someone? Look to the east again, my friend. Just add the common misconception that a proper kiai has to be loud. (And given modern TV/Movies--they all have that misconception...) Kiai is a documented and actual real world technique with clear benefits.

Though you certainly win a point on the mushroom thing. The fungus retconning of the orks has always been a few degrees off "wha?" But then, the orks are the comedy relief of 40k. :)

Maybe you picked bad examples? Again--my main gripe is specifically with Matt Ward's inability to write anything resembling decent coherent and logical (within the context of the 40k medium) fluff/background for his subject matter.

*I've studied eastern and western martial systems for over 2 decades, including crane, tiger & mantis forms--so I'm not talking out my backside on this. :)

[George Labour]

Metallica is a hard rock/ metal band that came to prominence in the 1980s and 90s.

Much of the early 40k 'lore' used similar pop culture references for everything from planets to fighting formations. It's why a lot of the early artwork can double as a metal album cover.

Howling Banshees are not all female. Rather the eldar assumes a mindset that is one of a female warrior walking the path of the Banshee.

To an extent ALL Eldar military units are based around putting on a costume and taking on that outfit's role and mentality for war. Even their militia does this.

Thus, gender bending cosplaying martial artists.

And Orks are seemingly the most sucessful and resilient race in the 40k 'verse. Yet their entire culture is based around the steretypical antics of soccer hooligans. With a bit of mad science thrown in because random electrocutions are funny when they happen to Daffy Duck.

Also, while astartes didn't label themselves as space marines, the most famous legion is....The Ultrmarines.

[scadugenga]

Metallica is a hard rock/ metal band that came to prominence in the 1980s and 90s.

Much of the early 40k 'lore' used similar pop culture references for everything from planets to fighting formations. It's why a lot of the early artwork can double as a metal album cover.

Howling Banshees are not all female. Rather the eldar assumes a mindset that is one of a female warrior walking the path of the Banshee.

To an extent ALL Eldar military units are based around putting on a costume and taking on that outfit's role and mentality for war. Even their militia does this.

Thus, gender bending cosplay martial artists.

And Orks are seemingly the most sucessful and resilient race in the 40k 'verse. Yet their entire culture is based around the steretypical antics of soccer hooligans. With a bit of mad science thrown in because random electrocutions are funny when they happen to Daffy Duck.

Also, while astartes didn't label themselves as space marines, the most famous legion is....The Ultrmarines.

I'm well aware of Metallica as a band. I see no oddity with using the word Metallica for a titan legion name. They've always been faux latin about that.

Dude--the putting on of armor/psychological ritual of transforming from civilian to warrior isn't cosplay. It's once again rooted in history and fact. Woad? Warpaint? just two examples. (Though there is some controversy whether celts and woad painting is a myth or not.) Calling it cosplay is uneducated and inaccurate. And calling them gender-bending because of one aspect path is a bit over the top, neh?

And again--orks=comedy relief of 40k.

So, after all this, again--the discussion is specifically Matt Ward, not the whole of 40k fluff...

[Lane]

Though you certainly win a point on the mushroom thing. The fungus retconning of the orks has always been a few degrees off "wha?" But then, the orks are the comedy relief of 40k. :)



I forget when they changed that bit of Fluf, was it at the same time as the Eldar condex started calling humans monkeys. If so it can be blamed on the same lack of maturity. In fact the unfortunate bit of Eldar Fluf came at a time when GW denied they were dumbing down the game and aiming for a younger audience. I believe that about as much as GW reducing prices.

[Fellend]

Give it up already.

Doesn't the fact that you mention "whine whine whine, now my Sisters of battle are less uncorruptable than Grey Knights whine whine whine" In every post tell you what this is really about? This is not about Matt Wards writing skills, who, I admit are not the best. This is all about "My sisters get beaten by the newest flavor of space marines yet again, can't they ever just be better than SM in at least one single thing?"

If this was really a discussion about cannon or writing skills, you could use arguments like, why aren't their sister blood factories? Does the power of the SOB lie in their blood? Is that heresy because of Khorne? Are sisters really uncorruptable or are they corrupted from the start?

And you say that it invalidates fluff?, You mean the writers, of said universe, invalidates the fluff....
It's the same as everything else, Stormraven, sure as hell invalidates fluff, all SM having different gear and being unable to co-operate by sharing, invalidates fluff.BA being better deep strikers because of training than Eldar invalidates the fluff, IG suddenly having mind nukers, invalidates fluff.
Every single addition changes the fluff in someway because the addition of something always makes us wonder why didn't they use this in the first place?

Read harry potter? Every wonder why Voldemort doesn't just stab him? Or why harry potter never uses the spells and potions he learned in the previous movies (i haven't read the books, i think they suck) to solve the problem in the next one?
Because you need to add new things to keep it from getting stale, and there will always be a bunch of hardcore fans going OMG OMG I like this part about that unit and now it's changed. You evil person of dooooooom!


I've said this 3 times already. This...is...nothing...but...SOB-players...WHINE.
I'm sure I'll be just as whiny when the new BT and Eldar codex comes but please, don't justify your army-fandom by calling the writers names. If they've ruined it's playability sure, you have after all invested the money in your armies. But because there's one piece of bad fluff where your guys die for the greater good of the Imperium. Get over it

[eldargal]

See, this is what I'm talking about you not paying attention. I did ask all those questions, why is SoB blood suddenly special, why didn't they just set up a SoB blood bank, why not fill flamer tanks with the stuff, why murder them instead of just ask them etc. The fact is you are dismissing legitimate concerns by saying its just because Sisters are involved, which is not the case. Not only that, but you are confusing the arguments. Grey Knights need SoB blood to stop themselves being corrupted, but Grey Knights are incorruptible! So why do they need that blood?

SoB are all of a sudden so incorruptible their blood is special
GK are suddenly so corruptible so they need that blood.


Two huge, gaping inconsistencies in the fluff which have nothing to do with SoB getting treated poorly. Never mind that GKs are now shown to be corruptible, its just those damned feminist SoB players having a whine.:rolleyes:

I'm fine with people disagreeing that the fluff is bad, but for heavens sake you could at least try and know what we are talking about instead of just making ridiculous, hyperbolic rants about Sob whinge.

[George Labour]

Well at least we know that in the Sororitas book it'll mention them wiping out a few space marine chapters, planets who look funny in the wrong kind of lighting, anyone born on alternate mondays from the local Arch Cardinals favorite cat's birthday, and those who vote for a third party.

So. uhmm, what goes around comes around?

AS for WHY they needed the blood. Same reason Frodo couldn't just ride an eagle into Mordor I suppose.

[eldargal]

Well, apart from the whole 'riding an eagle into Mordor' argument being stupid. Because, you know, a hobbit riding an eagle is so much harder to spot than a hobbit in a camo-cloak skuling through the rocks.:rolleyes:

Well, I doubt the SoB codex will be like that because Ward (probably) isn't writing it, thank god. I don't want the SoB to go around shattering the Chaos Gods, melting entire Hive Fleets with the power of prayer and sodomising Space Wolves with Blessed Candelabra. I just want them to be the hardcore warriors nuns they were in 2nd edition.


P.S. Fellend, no hard feelings, I just find this fluff really, really stupid but not for any of the reasons you bring up.

[Orminah]

Let me settle this with some good ol' fashioned, "I'm from the Dark City in the Webway, so sod off." third party-ism.

The reason they needed the blood seems apparent to me. Apparently, the blood of the righteous can be used with whatever sacred oils they have in stock for a repellent, not against the slow, mind-altering taint of Chaos, but the one that no mortal flesh is truly immune to, and that's the powers of the Warp. Grey Knights can't completely shrug off balefire to the face, even with all their silver and iron.

I agree with the idea that this is a thread made for whining, however, that doesn't make arguing about it anymore, or any less right. Just because you can't think logically or with rationality doesn't mean that you get to be a "lousy git". Please act with respect torwards your fellow man (or woman), and respect each other, because in the end, we're all here for one reason. And that's to play with plastic dolls.

[Tynskel]

Well, apart from the whole 'riding an eagle into Mordor' argument being stupid. Because, you know, a hobbit riding an eagle is so much harder to spot than a hobbit in a camo-cloak skuling through the rocks.:rolleyes:

Well, I doubt the SoB codex will be like that because Ward (probably) isn't writing it, thank god. I don't want the SoB to go around shattering the Chaos Gods, melting entire Hive Fleets with the power of prayer and sodomising Space Wolves with Blessed Candelabra. I just want them to be the hardcore warriors nuns they were in 2nd edition.


P.S. Fellend, no hard feelings, I just find this fluff really, really stupid but not for any of the reasons you bring up.

Sounds like a signal to noise ratio: if the eagle is large enough, you do not pick up the hobbit through your sensors!.

[George Labour]

Oh I don't envision the new SOB book being to epic in scope. At least not in a galaxy rocks at their passing and the warp trembles in fear kind of way.

That's the path they took with the Grey Knights and look where it took them. The astartes are epic demi-gawds and the GKs doubly so. Thus, much over the topness. I like it, other don't and to each their own.

However, there's going to be things the Sororitas do that's just as 'bad' as anything the other 'good guy' factions do. Heck I imagine we'll even see mention of their role in the purges of Armageddon since those wars have become more central to the 40k lore. The Ordo Hereticus is tasked with genetic cleansing and moral purity after all. They just have shapelier people in power armor helping out.

[Connjurus]

Oh I don't envision the new SOB book being to epic in scope. At least not in a galaxy rocks at their passing and the warp trembles in fear kind of way.


Save that for the the Chaos Space Marine codex...mmm...

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

Obviously this is an allegory about Matt Ward getting his "red wings"

:D

/seriously, I had to be the one to go there?

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Do you really beleive that good old GW will ad in the next SoB codex them purging GK's or SM's?? Your answer there is a big NO.

Why, lets answer that for you with why would they? Why make there money making marines look bad, soft or easy to kill. SM's rake in there profit, so you won't see SoB burning them, even though a few of the Chapters deserve it like Flesh Tearers, Space Puppies and a few others. Will we see them going to war against GK's now, ofcourse not, as that's bad for business.
GW has swung away from fluff canon, and thats what this arguement is about.

It's not about us whining SoB players saying my army got massacred for there blood but supposedly uncorruptable Gk's. It's about Ward destroying all credability he had with the Fluff of the GK codex. What he wrote was pathetic, ill thougt, lazy and contemptuous. And yes i know a few writers who could do better than some.
He is great at rules, im not disputing that, though its a little lame over the spectral GK's and Draigo is the Emporers gift to mankind crap.
This isn't about my army got treated poorly, your army didn't.
When was the last time you see Sm's getting masscred for being to close to chaos taint, or witnessing GK's, or just being on a planet that they think should all die? You don't, again because GW wants them all to be shining example of humanity thats why.

Its sad to see a fluff, that lets the game down that's all.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

Well, you might not want that, but Melissia does. That guy is just crazy, CRAZY, about SoBs. Its a little scary...


Well, apart from the whole 'riding an eagle into Mordor' argument being stupid. Because, you know, a hobbit riding an eagle is so much harder to spot than a hobbit in a camo-cloak skuling through the rocks.:rolleyes:

Well, I doubt the SoB codex will be like that because Ward (probably) isn't writing it, thank god. I don't want the SoB to go around shattering the Chaos Gods, melting entire Hive Fleets with the power of prayer and sodomising Space Wolves with Blessed Candelabra. I just want them to be the hardcore warriors nuns they were in 2nd edition.


P.S. Fellend, no hard feelings, I just find this fluff really, really stupid but not for any of the reasons you bring up.

[Connjurus]

SM's rake in there profit, so you won't see SoB burning them, even though a few of the Chapters deserve it like Flesh Tearers, Space Puppies and a few others.

Hey, they tried bringing it to those "Space Puppies" and got their ***** kicked. The Ecclesiarchy shouldn't be sticking its nose where it doesn't belong, and Fenris is definitely one of those places. The Space Marines worship the Emperor in a way more fitting to what Him on Earth wanted anyway - i.e. not as a God. :P

Flesh Tearers...maybe. Seth is pulling them back from the brink, but the Ecclesiarchy has no authority over the Space Marines.

[Gir]

See, this is what I'm talking about you not paying attention. I did ask all those questions, why is SoB blood suddenly special, why didn't they just set up a SoB blood bank, why not fill flamer tanks with the stuff, why murder them instead of just ask them etc. The fact is you are dismissing legitimate concerns by saying its just because Sisters are involved, which is not the case. Not only that, but you are confusing the arguments. Grey Knights need SoB blood to stop themselves being corrupted, but Grey Knights are incorruptible! So why do they need that blood?

SoB are all of a sudden so incorruptible their blood is special
GK are suddenly so corruptible so they need that blood.


Two huge, gaping inconsistencies in the fluff which have nothing to do with SoB getting treated poorly. Never mind that GKs are now shown to be corruptible, its just those damned feminist SoB players having a whine.:rolleyes:

I'm fine with people disagreeing that the fluff is bad, but for heavens sake you could at least try and know what we are talking about instead of just making ridiculous, hyperbolic rants about Sob whinge.

NO WHERE does it say the blood is incorruptable. NO WHERE. Please stop complaining about it until you've read the actual passage.

[Fellend]

To make my argument clearer:
1: if this was about fluff it would be in the fluff section of the forum... it's not, it's not a discussion about the fluff. It's one huge personal attack on Matt Ward.

2: I admit to not having the best of knowledge of GK but is it actually said anywhere that they are incorruptable? Because if so yes there's a miss in the fluff. If not they are just very well protected, and this protection comes from somewhere yes?

3: They were using pure blood to protect against tainted blood, it makes kind of sense no?

4: And about SM not getting purged? Wait what? have you played Redemption? "Ya know what? we are tired of you and your kind, we'll exterminate all of you, space marines, planets, innocents, corrupted, the smurfs"
In almost every book there's an SM becoming corrupt and people try to exterminate their entire chapter because of it. It usually ends with the SM killing their own corrupted ones and then the Inquisitors.

5: Mostly, I'm not arguing this because of the fluff. I think it's retarded as well. I'm arguing this because Melissa posted a serious personal attack just because she wants to whine about her SOB getting the stick

[eldargal]

Gir, I have read the passage, they coat themselves in the blood of the pure to stop themselves being corrupted by daemonic taint. Why do the incorruptible Grey Knights need the blood of pure Sisters of Battle to stop themselves being corrupted? The implication is the SoB are more pure than the Grey Knights, or else they wouldn't need the blood. Why do the incorruptible need the blood of the pure to stay incorruptible, they never needed it before.

Fellend, fair enough, I don't agree with the personal attack either, I think Ward is unfairly treated in most regards. However, I do find this piece absurd but like I said I like plenty of other bits, notably Inquisitor Valeria. Yes SM get exterminated for corruption, but not merely fighting Chaos like the Guard.

I really hate this piece of fluff, it seems to me nonsensical. But, I don't hate Ward, I don't think he is a halfwit, and it is not going to spoil my enjoyment of what is basically a good, balanced (yes, really) codex. If GW release an Inquisitor Valeria model I may even make an army from it.

[Xabraxis]

It is ironic that Fellend mentions Harry Potter incontinuity as if it's a good thing.


Anyways, literary failings aside This codex ONLY represents the Gray Knights as a Chaos order.

1) Bathing in blood. Whatever context you want to put that in, it's worshipping chaos.
2) During their creation, Titan was hidden with SORCERY(The Emperor had a whole legion attacked just for using sorcery as a clairvoyance.)
3) The Gray Knights during this time were drifting in the warp. Before their silly rituals even existed.
4) Daemon sword debacle. Yea, totally.
5) They team up with Radical Inquisitors who use DAEMON SHOOTING GUNS and DAEMON WEAPONS. If you support the whole sisters of battle being killed immediatly thing, than you should then support your inquisitors giving up killpoints at the end of the game.

6)Draigo. He's some dude who spends all of his time in the warp, and only comes back when there are daemons.
IGNORING the fluff that happens in there mind you... what does this sound like? OH yea: A greater Daemon.
7)The guy who keeps coming back to life. Yea he's totally legit
8)The guy surrounded by "ghosts" who retain all their ghostly wargear properties. Yea, they're not daemons or anything don't worry about it.
9)We'll go with that destroying entire planets just to keep their secret thing. Because Straight forward surgical strikes against the people responsible is CLEARLY too orderly of an option for a Chaos Legion.

Hey look, I came up with Nine reasons. Tzeentch be praised. You know, with the amount of psychic power these guys are tossing about I wouldn't be too surprised if the vials of "emperor gene seed" or whatever is being claimed as the source with a few vials of PURE LORD OF CHANGE.

[Orminah]

Do you hate Grey Knights? Did they kick you dog or something? That sounded so biased.

[Fellend]

Wait so all powers, that manifest themselves throught the warp are evil? The Emperor's Tarot? The Storm of the Emperors Wrath? ...SOB's faith? Legion of the Damned? I'm sure there are more examples.
Just because they are using the same system to get around as the bad guys (aka the warp) doesn't make them deamons or bad guys. The entire Imperium is founded on using the warps (more or less) benificial sides to support the untold billions that populate the Imperium, Warp travel, the astronomican, the Emperors Tarot, The Navigators, Psychic Powers in general.

Bathing in blood, while strange hardly chaos. I can think of the Blood angels, they have a pretty bunch of blood rituals, their offsprings are even worse.

So the Emperor commanded the use of Sorcery... Just because he won't let Magnus use it doesn't mean that he can't use it himself (or by proxy)

So they fight evil with evil? I'm pretty sure it's okay as long as you kill of the Inquisitor once he turns renegade. Come on, who in this world does not use double standards?

So Draigo can use the powers of the warp to fight daemons... wait that sounds almost like... Every other psyker that the Imperium has! The only difference is that his powers are greater (still the fluff is silly)

Because there aren't other guys in the Imperium that keeps coming back to life? like say Mephiston and Grimaldus?

I don't want to start the thread of Angels versus Daemons here, but why wouldn't there be good psychic entities in the warp (aka ghosts). I mean apparantly the GK are strong enough to leave a significant impression in the warp, Fighting on from beyond the grave wouldn't seem impossible... (once again, legion of the damned)

When has the Imperium ever not considered full on extermination as a good option?

[Fellend]

The Grey Knights have a special preference for the use of teleportation, or more specifically the use of deep strike technology. There is a beautiful irony in using the origin of the enemy as a means of transport, and then proceeding to purge the surrounding area of their taint.

So yeah, they like using the warp for their own needs... hell they are all psykers


The suits of power and Terminator armour worn by the Grey Knights are incredibly well crafted lattice of psychoconductive filaments and amulets*7; anointed and inscribed with prayers and wards, ritually consecrated and psychically charged. Working in tandem with the Grey Knights' formidable psychic powers, the Aegis armour protects the wearers from the effects of the Immaterium and the Daemons it spawns. The armor's ritual blessings and psychic resonance also serve to confound the perception of any enemy, resulting in an effect called the Shrouding. The psychically charged nature of the armour allows its mere presence to induce intense terror and pain in any nearby daemons and warp spawn, also loosening their grip on the material realm.


Protection upon protection upon protection. Not incorruptable, just very well protected


Chaplain

Grey Knights Chaplains fulfill the same functions as in other Marine chapters, albeit on a much higher level, as they have to minister to the spiritual needs of soldiers destined to fight the most horrible of foes. They are rare specimens indeed, and the Chapter has precious few of them. Yet, thanks to them, not one Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos.8

None has ever fallen, because of protection, prayers and god knows what other methods. once again, not incorruptable, just very well protected (+1 innocent blood go!)



Considering the role of the Grey Knights, potential recruits are put through even more stringent trials than other Space Marine Neophytes. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, the Grey Knight recruits are drawn directly from the Black Ships after they return to Terra they are then brought to Titan for testing.7 The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery available is utilised to condition the Neophytes, and each recruit must pass the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, to prove that he is capable of withstanding horrors that would break even the greatest of 'normal' Space Marines. Upon success, the recruit also has the majority of their memories and personality erased1, to better ensure their absolute and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. One of the main criteria for selection is that the recruit must show great psychic potential, as the entire Chapter is made up of psykers. Once accepted into the chapter and undergoing the standard process to transform into a member of the Adeptus Astartes, the new Grey Knight is also implanted with silver purity wards under his skin which cover his entire body.


Once again, more and more protection. Nothing ever mentions them being incorruptable, just as close as you can get. Because they use every means in the book to achieve this.

[eldargal]

Yep, and all the SoB have is faith and power armour and they are so much more resistant to Chaotic taint the GK need to bathe in their blood to protect themselves. That in no way invalidates anything and makes absolute sense.:rolleyes:

[Fellend]

Not saying that it makes perfect sense.
But come one, pure blood vs tainted blood? It's not the ultimate counter, it might just give them +1. I'd take that chance. These guys are willing to do anything for the mission. Killing a bunch of sisters and taking their blood to use as protection would certainly be viable. Compared to killing millions upon millions because they saw them.

The SOB was pure.... so far... might change, maybe not now, maybe not in years but this event might leave them stained forever.
You are blatantly ignoring what I'm saying, the SOB isn't the ultimate pure counter to Chaos, but apparantly they might give you a small buff against blood based taint (yeah. still, this is retarded, i'm not arguing it)
It does not invalidate anything. Hell this is a world where things go faster because you believe they do it and paint it red. It's a world where belief creates gods, its a world where belief gives lets you jump through space.
Is it really that hard to think that if you believe that pure blood will protect you it will? REALLY? That is what breaks the fluff and cannon of wh40k?

[eldargal]

But you need to look at the context, the SoB without any of the GK protections have blood that is so pure/resistant to the taint of Chaos that the GK can use it for a buff. Why, when everything about the GK down to their geneseed is geared to be resistant to Chaotic taint, are the SoB so much purer than the GK? I mean despite being slaughtered it doesn't look too bad for the SoB (ultra pure), but it still doesn't fit, in my opinion. I mean, if all it takes is faith why do the GK bother with all those rituals and runes and nonsense?

You see what I'm getting at?

It is pretty much the only thing I have a problem with in the book, Draigo is silly but at least it makes sense for an incorruptible GK Grandmaster to be hardcore (and you could always argue he was in his own pocket of the Warp fuelled by his fantasies of defeating Chaos. The Warp is tricksy). Crowe makes sense, giving a corrupting weapon to one that won't be corrupted (despite a distinct lack of SoB blood;)) etcetera.

[Fellend]

I'm going to argue blast shield on this one.
The (swedish) blast shield is a completely useless piece of equipment given to soldiers to get used to wearing body armor in combat. It protects against absolutely nothing except possibly, a grenade splinter that hits it in the exact right angle, at the exact right location at the exact right time.
Is it going to help me kill things in combat? Will I wear it? Yes at the off chance that this fated shrapnel comes at me I'd rather wear it than not despite it being cumbersome, makes you sweat like a pig and you can't raise your arms above your shoulders.

Now imagine the shrapnel being a river off blood, imagine the sisters blood being the blast shield and imagine the swedish soldier being a Grey Knight.
See where I'm going?

As to why sisters are purer than Grey Knights... well, that's always been a bit of awkward fluff. Why is it that only females wearing power armour can use faith? Why can't men be faithful... (yeah there's a pun for you)
This is really not about the Grey Knights being awkward in the fluff. It's about the sisters being a strange abomination fueled by their own seperate belief system which is impossible to achieve unless you happen to be a girl raised in a convent. Forget about the billions of fanatics that worship the Emperor... as long as you a girl you get magical powers! WHOOO!


See why this is nothing but army whine?

[meleemadness]

Page fifteen of the new GK codex... "The Bloodtide Returns"...


Basically Grey Knights come across a planet with a daemonsword or somesuch, which was corrupting the planet. There was a convent of Sisters whose faith was keeping them pure and untouched by the taint, and instead of asking for the Sisters' assistance the Grey Knights slaughter them all, desecrate the bodies, and then smear the blood of the Sisters all over their armor, then go about systematically destroying everything on the planet and taking the daemon sword for themselves.

Good job Matt Ward, you turned the incorruptible Grey Knights into champions of Khorne and once again used Sisters as a scratching post to kill and toss aside. You sick, demented freak who masquerades as a writer. **** you and everything you stand for.

lol, omg! Are you serious? I hope not...it is just fiction and a game. Perhaps he wrote that to keep too many player from playing them....no, that makes no sense, they want to sell, sell, sell!!

But on a fictional side, i think it sucks....I would like to play Sisters one day and don't like the idea of the fiction making them just rag dolls to be easily destroyed.

[Melissia]

NO WHERE does it say the blood is incorruptable.

That only makes the fluff bit even worse written, not better.

Fellend's blatant attempts at trolling Sisters players aside, this makes Grey Knights look like bloodthirsty douchebags who are on the cusp of worshipping Khorne, if they don't already.

[celestialatc]

That only makes the fluff bit even worse written, not better.

Fellend's blatant attempts at trolling Sisters players aside, this makes Grey Knights look like bloodthirsty douchebags who are on the cusp of worshipping Khorne, if they don't already.

Just means you should kill every Grey Knights player you see on the table top and when you leave them crying for their mommy all you say is, "Where's your Matt Ward now?"

[Gir]

That only makes the fluff bit even worse written, not better.

Fellend's blatant attempts at trolling Sisters players aside, this makes Grey Knights look like bloodthirsty douchebags who are on the cusp of worshipping Khorne, if they don't already.

Nope, it fits perfectally with the GK fluff. You're only pissed off because it's sisters being killed. As has been said many times before, army favoritism.

[Lemt]

Nope, it fits perfectally with the GK fluff. You're only pissed off because it's sisters being killed. As has been said many times before, army favoritism.

I don't give a damn about Sisters, I'm a GK fan. And that piece of fluff is terrible.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Im glad someone brought up another Matt Ward screw up. Namely how if the Emporer was so opposed to sorcery and branded one of his sons for it, why do we now read (pointing finger at Ward here) that the whole GK chapter are built on the back of it, use it, allow it, and frequently live amongst such rituals that if any other person in the Imperiuem used would be branded heretic, burnt and named traitorforever??

Here again we see just like the current arguement, that he created another inconsistancy that goes against canon, fluff or whatever to make it look cool for GW.
You can't have it both ways without being a smuck. How can you let the GK's use it at every corner, yet the Emporer himself is said to oppose sorcery? Its a contridiction again and again. So far thats two, possibly more in the one codex.

The main point of this thread is that Matt Ward goofed and has chosen to ignore current fluff and canon, and decided to change it at his whim again and again to suit what ever he lazily dream up...mostly crap.
That't the point. He's screwing with things we know, like and accept and changing them for no other reason that it sounds good in the new GK codex. LAME

[Connjurus]

If it was some miraculously resistant Imperial Guard company that resisted the wiles of Chaos that was slaughtered and painted on their armor, none of you would care. So shut up. You only care because it's Sisters of Battle, and I'm tired of your blatant lies to the contrary.

(( Not so much at Eldargal, her argument makes sense, but the others just scream of butthurt imaditism. ))

[Lemt]

If it was some miraculously resistant Imperial Guard company that resisted the wiles of Chaos that was slaughtered and painted on their armor, none of you would care. So shut up. You only care because it's Sisters of Battle, and I'm tired of your blatant lies to the contrary.

(( Not so much at Eldargal, her argument makes sense, but the others just scream of butthurt imaditism. ))

Dude, I'm a GK fan, and I recognise that piece of fluff sucks. You guys are all talking about army favoritism, and that's exactly what you are all doing.

[Connjurus]

Dude, I'm a GK fan, and I recognise that piece of fluff sucks. You guys are all talking about army favoritism, and that's exactly what you are all doing.

Oh, it definitely isn't the best, but a few of the people in this thread are just taking it a bit too hard, and you can tell why.

[Fellend]

That only makes the fluff bit even worse written, not better.

Fellend's blatant attempts at trolling Sisters players aside, this makes Grey Knights look like bloodthirsty douchebags who are on the cusp of worshipping Khorne, if they don't already.

Because they butcher a bunch of sisters and use their blood to achieve a victory for the Emperor? Well... the new codex is filled with examples of GK doing whatever they want for the greater good of the Imperium, breaking every rule there is so the Imperium can be kept safe. Why wouldn't they slaughter it? Why is something "on the cusp of worshipping Khorne" so much worse than say, wielding daemon weaponry, using xeno tech, using dark age tech, using sorcery, using the Emperors own flesh for that matter?

THIS...IS...ALL...ABOUT...SOB.
As someone pointed out. Had it been any other army you wouldn't be complaining.

And as for me being a GK fan. I haven't read the codex, or the old one, I don't own a model (though I admit to wanting to convert some of the new ones for Black Templar use) and I've played GK all of 2 times.

And the Emperor changed His mind on quite alot of things after the heresy, maybe He was against sorcery when He still had the webway in mind. Now He uses what He can to get by.
Nowhere has anyone pointed out anything that breaks current fluff or cannon. It's all just SOB whine.
Badly written, yes, but lets face it dawn of war 1 expansions were worse
"METAL BOXES, THEY HAVE METAL BOXES!" - Said by a 10000 year old Chaos Lord upon seeing Rhinos...

[Connjurus]

"metal boxes, they have metal boxes!" - said by a 10000 year old chaos lord upon seeing rhinos...

metul bawksez.

[Daemonette666]

I personally do not like GK, and do not even worry about the Fluff any more. It has been changed and corrupted and re altered again by GW any time they want to remove a race, reduce the power or effectiveness of a particularly powerful non imperial army, or give a reason to boost an Imperium based army.

After reading the rules, which still make each GK a walking powerhouse that can kill most enemies in close combat, I thankfully breath a sigh of relief as they have changed the weapons like incinerators and psycannon so that they no longer ignore invulnerable saves.

What I do not get is how they can allow GK terminators/Paladins/ICs to carry grenades in tactical dreadnought armour.

Sure they cost a lot, so you get fewer of them, but they can move across the table rapidly and overwhelm an enemy before they know it. Shunt moves for DreadKnights and Interceptor Squads, Librarians can teleport a vehicle or unit not in CC anywhere on the table and move them within 6" of the Librarian model (treated as a deapstrike), Storm Ravens, deep striking terminators as basic troop types, ICs that can make dreadknights (up to D3 units) and other units not normally a scoring unit into a scoring unit.

If you are taking Psykers against them or Daemons - don't. Just use lots of fast moving vehicles with lots of artillery (strength 10 is best) and huge amounts of high strength weaponry like multi-lasers as the most GKs have AVs of 2+ and most can get or be given a 5+ or better invul save which can then be boosted with psychic abilities. They now have long range weaponry, and can make most enemy in close combat strike after them with special grenades, psychic abilities, etc, and if you do strike before them, they can hit at strength 6 with their weapon and psychic attack bonuses (hammerhand).

Eldar with a farseer can force them to ge perils of the warp more often, but some of them can re-roll the test. Either way th GKs would use use the same tactic everyone uses and kill of the farseer, and they are back in the game.

GKs can +1 or -1 to reserve rolls to modify the turn their reserves come in on. I think they can also effect enemy reserve rolls as well, but will have to look at the codex again. Thankfully they can only take 2 HQ choices, but have 14 to choose from, of which 7 are named characters.

I would recommend using a highly mobile army mounting as many bolters and multi-lasers as you can get. your armour will not help in CC as they all have force weapons, so use numbers and shoot the GKs down with higher ROF meaning they have more chances of rolling 1s for armour saves. Destroy their transports and heavy hitters as priorities, and if you can kill off a Librarian so much the better. A Death Korp of Kreig Army with 6 squads of 3 Lemun Russ Battle tanks (troops choices) backed up by Hydras, Medusas, and Basilisks might do well against them - might. Throw in some rough riders as throw away troops to soak up and reduce the speed of the enemy assault, and make sure you keep your psykers protected in vehicles at all times.

They are very expensive, and for a 1500 point game, they do not get many troops and support units. If they expand from the basic forces and choose henchman squads, assassins, heavy support units, etc, they will easily soak up their 1500 points and be outnumbered.

[Connjurus]

I personally do not like GK, and do not even worry about the Fluff any more. It has been changed and corrupted and re altered again by GW any time they want to remove a race, reduce the power or effectiveness of a particularly powerful non imperial army, or give a reason to boost an Imperium based army.

After reading the rules, which still make each GK a walking powerhouse that can kill most enemies in close combat, I thankfully breath a sigh of relief as they have changed the weapons like incinerators and psycannon so that they no longer ignore invulnerable saves.

What I do not get is how they can allow GK terminators/Paladins/ICs to carry grenades in tactical dreadnought armour.

Sure they cost a lot, so you get fewer of them, but they can move across the table rapidly and overwhelm an enemy before they know it. Shunt moves for DreadKnights and Interceptor Squads, Librarians can teleport a vehicle or unit not in CC anywhere on the table and move them within 6" of the Librarian model (treated as a deapstrike), Storm Ravens, deep striking terminators as basic troop types, ICs that can make dreadknights (up to D3 units) and other units not normally a scoring unit into a scoring unit.

If you are taking Psykers against them or Daemons - don't. Just use lots of fast moving vehicles with lots of artillery (strength 10 is best) and huge amounts of high strength weaponry like multi-lasers as the most GKs have AVs of 2+ and most can get or be given a 5+ or better invul save which can then be boosted with psychic abilities. They now have long range weaponry, and can make most enemy in close combat strike after them with special grenades, psychic abilities, etc, and if you do strike before them, they can hit at strength 6 with their weapon and psychic attack bonuses (hammerhand).

Eldar with a farseer can force them to ge perils of the warp more often, but some of them can re-roll the test. Either way th GKs would use use the same tactic everyone uses and kill of the farseer, and they are back in the game.

GKs can +1 or -1 to reserve rolls to modify the turn their reserves come in on. I think they can also effect enemy reserve rolls as well, but will have to look at the codex again. Thankfully they can only take 2 HQ choices, but have 14 to choose from, of which 7 are named characters.

I would recommend using a highly mobile army mounting as many bolters and multi-lasers as you can get. your armour will not help in CC as they all have force weapons, so use numbers and shoot the GKs down with higher ROF meaning they have more chances of rolling 1s for armour saves. Destroy their transports and heavy hitters as priorities, and if you can kill off a Librarian so much the better. A Death Korp of Kreig Army with 6 squads of 3 Lemun Russ Battle tanks (troops choices) backed up by Hydras, Medusas, and Basilisks might do well against them - might. Throw in some rough riders as throw away troops to soak up and reduce the speed of the enemy assault, and make sure you keep your psykers protected in vehicles at all times.

They are very expensive, and for a 1500 point game, they do not get many troops and support units. If they expand from the basic forces and choose henchman squads, assassins, heavy support units, etc, they will easily soak up their 1500 points and be outnumbered.

I have no idea where this came from. We weren't talking about the rules at all, and the Grey Knight codex actually looks a little underwhelming. Played a test game against them with a Berzerker-heavy army and let me tell you something - Berzerkers are still much better in close-combat.

[Daemonette666]

I have no idea where this came from. We weren't talking about the rules at all, and the Grey Knight codex actually looks a little underwhelming. Played a test game against them with a Berzerker-heavy army and let me tell you something - Berzerkers are still much better in close-combat.
It broke the ice and changed the subject and brought it around to what the game is really about - playing the game. This argument over fluuf way getting out of hand. And I did mention I did not care about the fluff anymore in my opening statement LOL.

[scadugenga]

If it was some miraculously resistant Imperial Guard company that resisted the wiles of Chaos that was slaughtered and painted on their armor, none of you would care. So shut up. You only care because it's Sisters of Battle, and I'm tired of your blatant lies to the contrary.

(( Not so much at Eldargal, her argument makes sense, but the others just scream of butthurt imaditism. ))

Dude, I've been a GK fan since Slaves to Darkness, and can frankly care less about Witchunters and SoB in its entirety. So you can take your accusations of "blatant lies" and use them to salve your own obvious case of butt hurt.

I'd call shenanigans on Ward if he used any other army for his blood-sacrifice, SOB, IG, ELDAR, what-have-you.

It's poor writing. Just like Modrak's ghost bodyguard is poor writing and Draigo's godlike power is poor writing.

His rules are generally decent and balanced. I'll give him that--credit where it's due. This is the first 5th edition codex I've read where I wished it was set into a 3rd edition codex format. (IE all rules, no/minimal fluff.)

His naming conventions are straight out of a bad 80's GI Joe cartoon, and his background fluff is sadly lacking.

Sorry you seem to be so rabidly defending shoddy writing. I'll agree with you personal attacks on the author are unwarranted. But literary criticism is a perfectly valid discussion topic. Telling people to shut up and calling them liars is hardly an appropriate response.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Crowe wields a Daemon weapon because it cannot be destroyed, and if it were hidden it would call out to someone to try and corrupt them.

It is trusted to him because he is regarded as pure and incorruptible - he's essentially keeping it out of the wrong hands, and he doesn't use any of its Daemonic powers for fear of what influence it might have over him.

Well that makes more sense, but in the old fluff they would have just found a way to destroy it. So no I still do not like it. But at least that makes more sense

[George Labour]

Do you really beleive that good old GW will ad in the next SoB codex them purging GK's or SM's?? Your answer there is a big NO.

Why, lets answer that for you with why would they? Why make there money making marines look bad, soft or easy to kill. SM's rake in there profit, so you won't see SoB burning them, even though a few of the Chapters deserve it like Flesh Tearers, Space Puppies and a few others. Will we see them going to war against GK's now, ofcourse not, as that's bad for business.
GW has swung away from fluff canon, and thats what this arguement is about.

When the focus of the codex will be on the Sororitas, The Ecclesiarchy (with their stereotypically intolerant mannerisms), and The Inquisition they can and will go over how they can and have killed anyone and everything that they claim is tainted. Just like how each codex has these long list of entries involving epic victories over foes, even when those foes also have their own list of epic victories in their own codex.

Even the guard overcomes all its opponents in their codex. Except for that one tank legion that got eaten by daemons.

AS far as GW canon goes. My copy of Dark Millennium is pretty clear that the threat of taint is worth any sacrifice in order to keep mankind safe. Biggest change between then and now is that Grey Knights have more than one unit. Since that was early 2nd edition the whole 'kill them just to be sure' thing has been around A LONG TIME.



This isn't about my army got treated poorly, your army didn't.

Since my original 40k universe army were the titan legions, and knight households I haven't been treated very well in regards to Warhammer 40k releases. Not even one codex for the adeptus mechanicus, and they removed what units they had when they released 3rd edition.


When was the last time you see Sm's getting masscred for being to close to chaos taint, or witnessing GK's, or just being on a planet that they think should all die? You don't, again because GW wants them all to be shining example of humanity thats why.

Its sad to see a fluff, that lets the game down that's all.

For being tainted? Well, there's the flesh tearers suicidal crusade, the Soulhunters books, The grey knight codex (you know, the same one with the fluff where they kill some other people too) mentions marines being mind scrubbed if possible, slain otherwise, The Astartes series of white dwarf articles and books, the Chaos codexes most certainly contain some rather ignominious victories over loyalists and or tales of their fall to chaos.

AS for shining examples of humanity.........I didn't realize wide scale genocide, blood rituals, brain eating, and training kids to be killers before they can speak was the pinnacle of modern day morality. Astartes, aren't human anymore and they most certainly aren't nice people.

Sure Logan and Marneus might be fun to hang around with for a bit. But show a moment's faltering or hint of blasphemous tendencies and they're more likely to chop off your head than preach to you about forgiveness and understanding.

Actually...that's pretty much true for any high ranking leader (and most low ranks too) in the IMperium.

There is no forgiveness, there is no peace, there is only war and the laughter of uncaring gawds. One of the mottos for 40k right there.

[Lemt]

People here aren't complaining that SoB got slaughtered. The problem is that the slaughter made no sense whatsoever. The SoB would have been a much better asset alive than dead, and the GKs should have known this. Their behaviour was wore fitting of someone tainted by chaos.

[Connjurus]

People here aren't complaining that SoB got slaughtered. The problem is that the slaughter made no sense whatsoever. The SoB would have been a much better asset alive than dead, and the GKs should have known this. Their behaviour was wore fitting of someone tainted by chaos.

No they wouldn't've. They would have been slaughtered.

[razcalking]

It broke the ice and changed the subject and brought it around to what the game is really about - playing the game. This argument over fluuf way getting out of hand. And I did mention I did not care about the fluff anymore in my opening statement LOL.

It doesn't matter what you think the "game is really about". Your comment had nothing to do with what the thread was about.

[Denzark]

HA this is brilliant!

15 pages of Geek Rage! Allow me to comment:

1. @ Xabraxi: Its 'GREY' Knights not 'GRAY'. Have a look at the front of the codex, its written in English.

2. GK fluff is full of examples that state the same thing - do absolutely anything the commander on the ground feels necessary to defeat the threat. He would probably have ordered all armour smeared with nurgling poo and had the Paladins compete at naked Twister if it helped him achieve his aim.

3. 2 above being the case - I can see no evidence of mysogyny (sp?) which is 'hatred or mistrust of women' - it is doing anything they feel necessary. Should it have been an IG company and there had been no mention of SOB in the codex, people would have complained.

4. The codex clearly states that IG USUALLY killed after exposure, some excpetional units subject to painful telepathic scrubbing. SM Mindscrubbed safely, except for a few trusted chapters (presumably first founding with form for daemon killing). This goes back to RT Slaves to Darkness fluff so for a change, no retconning. So nowhere does 'sanitizing' SOB contravene this. On the subject of RT fluff it (RT) shows a sister killing a Blood Angel. Mostly the ecclesiarchy knows better than to try to 'God-bother' the astartes as they get slapped faster than Jehovah's Witnesses interrupting the Six Nations on TV.

5. Fluff is always full of trite, convenient retconning and other dramatic license - this entire codex is nothing new. You want to talk about contradictions - no one has mentioned a codex in which Coteaz the immensely pure uber-puritian can allow you to take a list (excepting 2 x compulsory troops) entirely composed of non-force org-slot using daemonhosts in squads of up to 12. BTW on this subject I don't see a GK with damon weapon as contradictory - again check Slaves to Darkness.

6. Please Please Please. Don't complain about a little blood annointing in a universe where there is mass geno/xenocide, and billions dying just because a little demon popped up on their planet. Its laughable. Slaaneshi orgies do much worse, implied and stated. This game is about warfare - its all about KILLING. ENDING OF LIFE, SHUFFLING OFF THE MORTAL COIL etc. There is virus bombing, rad grenading, bayoneting, devil worship, a rule to allow Commissars to carry out field executions. 90% of the game is murder, the other 10% is about getting close enough to do murder. If this is incompatible with how you want your kids brought up don't involve them at 10. I hope the GW keeps to vivid bloody visceral fluff as this is pure adult escapism - if you don't want kiddy-winks exposed try a game that isn't a WARgame (which sort of does what is says on the tin).

Ta Ta all, nice to have Melly back into the cut and thrust of debate.

[gcsmith]

While I think its not in the normal fluff of the GK it makes sence, after all the grey knights are NOT incorruptible, most imperial fluff says anyone in contact for long WILL be corrupted, makes no distinction, I mean Grey Knights are after all marines so less corruptable but psycers so more so.

They are the ones who fight daemons and im sure many have been corrupted, but killed or silenced to stop the word spreading, i mean wat hope is there if your best line against daemons gets turned.

[Renegade]

I am not prepared to read all fifteen pages, but that daemon weapon that no one can use without the sky falling could have been dumped in the Hadex, problem solved.

[Brettila]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason Matt Ward isn't writing a new Sisters codex is because NO ONE is writing a new Sisters codex, correct?

Well there is an interview with Mat Ward in the April WD, and there is a quote where he is discussing the inclusion of Inquisitional forces in the GK codex and he says, "...inclusion of the Inquisition and other Imperial agents adds variation...This, in turn, will hopefully follow through on some other projects I am working on."

So, Melissa, and other Sister fans, might want to join me in a collective, "WHY, GOD, WHY?!"

Sadly enough, GW would use the logic that the person who did one codex should do the other so that they will be compatible...sigh. :(

[JxKxR]

Well there is an interview with Mat Ward in the April WD, and there is a quote where he is discussing the inclusion of Inquisitional forces in the GK codex and he says, "...inclusion of the Inquisition and other Imperial agents adds variation...This, in turn, will hopefully follow through on some other projects I am working on."

So, Melissa, and other Sister fans, might want to join me in a collective, "WHY, GOD, WHY?!"

Sadly enough, GW would use the logic that the person who did one codex should do the other so that they will be compatible...sigh. :(

Who want's to bet that if Ward does the sisters codex her head explodes?

[novatomato]

I'll put fifty down that her head implodes rather than explodes. :D

[Kieranator K82]

I might not agree with Ward's decisions, but I agree with his logic (or the closest thing he has to it)
The Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide was probably a very powerful daemon, and his Bloodtide was no less effective, corrupting the most faithful servants of the Emperor, and even Sisters were corrupted. The Grey Knights aren't perfect. A Knight can only psychically power his Aegis so much before he risks the Perils of the Warp. Since Khorne is the Blood God, it makes some degree of sense that the pure blood of innocent servants of the Emperor, mixed with blessed oils, can be used as an additional means of protection against the Bloodtide. It took three Librarians to make it safe to traverse the Basilica, and the Brotherhood Champion selflessly sacrificed his life to defeat the Bloodthirster.

[eldargal]

Harry on Warseer says the SoB codex was started while the GK codex was still being worked, on and that they are seperate projects. IE Ward probably won't be involved. Why do people think that talking about skills learnt on an Inquisition codex and applying those to future projects somehow means thos future projects are Inquisition? Never mind th fact that th SB aren't Inquisition.

GW have never had multiple codices written by the same author being worked on at the same time.


Well there is an interview with Mat Ward in the April WD, and there is a quote where he is discussing the inclusion of Inquisitional forces in the GK codex and he says, "...inclusion of the Inquisition and other Imperial agents adds variation...This, in turn, will hopefully follow through on some other projects I am working on."

So, Melissa, and other Sister fans, might want to join me in a collective, "WHY, GOD, WHY?!"

Sadly enough, GW would use the logic that the person who did one codex should do the other so that they will be compatible...sigh. :(

[JxKxR]

Harry on Warseer says the SoB codex was started while the GK codex was still being worked, on and that they are seperate projects. IE Ward probably won't be involved. Why do people think that talking about skills learnt on an Inquisition codex and applying those to future projects somehow means thos future projects are Inquisition? Never mind th fact that th SB aren't Inquisition.

GW have never had multiple codices written by the same author being worked on at the same time.

I sort of think it was a hint that he will be doing the new Tau codex. Going by the rumors I would say we will be seeing Necrons then Sisters then Tau. Soooo maybe.

[Lane]

...Since Khorne is the Blood God, it makes some degree of sense that the pure blood of innocent servants of the Emperor, mixed with blessed oils, can be used as an additional means of protection against the Bloodtide.

IMHO killing the innocent and uncorrupted and painting your armor with the blood should make you more vulnerable to Khorne.

[Kieranator K82]

IMHO killing the innocent and uncorrupted and painting your armor with the blood should make you more vulnerable to Khorne.

I agree, but maybe Khorne doesn't like "Holy Blood"; in the same way Bear Grylls doesn't like drinking pure, uncorrupted water. :rolleyes:

[JxKxR]

I agree, but maybe Khorne doesn't like "Holy Blood"; in the same way Bear Grylls doesn't like drinking pure, uncorrupted water. :rolleyes:

Khorne likes all blood. He doesn't care from where it flows only that it does. So the grey knights were pleasing khorne.

[Fellend]

Khorne likes all blood. He doesn't care from where it flows only that it does. So the grey knights were pleasing khorne.

Though I technically agree with you, I counter your argument with Khorne likes all skulls so we shouldn't kill heretics....

[Xabraxis]

Also, heres an example of some of the Fantastic fluff and pricing in the book(I won't give points value, but you need to look it up to believe it.)

I actually don't remember what it is called, but it is a LOW point upgrade you can give most vehicles, and it's fluff goes something like this:

"This device is rare and irreplaceable. If it is damaged, it is lost forever."

[Xabraxis]

HA this is brilliant!

15 pages of Geek Rage! Allow me to comment:

1. @ Xabraxi: Its 'GREY' Knights not 'GRAY'. Have a look at the front of the codex, its written in English.


It's is a contraction for it is or it has.

Its is a possessive pronoun meaning, more or less, of it or belonging to it.

Pro-tip: When trying to bash someone on grammar, use correct grammar.

[JxKxR]

Though I technically agree with you, I counter your argument with Khorne likes all skulls so we shouldn't kill heretics....

That's why I like Khorne, you just can't win against him.

[Kieranator K82]

It's is a contraction for it is or it has.

Its is a possessive pronoun meaning, more or less, of it or belonging to it.

Pro-tip: When trying to bash someone on grammar, use correct grammar.

Don't even start this! Denzark absolutely LOVES irritating grammatically correct people and/or grammar fascists.
Ref: Brass Scorpions thread in the Oubliette about 'finite' being the root word of definite' and other errors (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=12173). Hell, Denzark's signature is a response to this thread, combined with the topic of FSM.

[Denzark]

It's is a contraction for it is or it has.

Its is a possessive pronoun meaning, more or less, of it or belonging to it.

Pro-tip: When trying to bash someone on grammar, use correct grammar.

thats greyt ime shure but i think u'll find i am bsashing yuor SPELLING not GRAMMA

PS

If you were using 'pro' as a contraction of professional, there was no need for a hyphen between 'pro' and 'tip' - there is no such word as pro-tip and you were not at the end of a page. Pro-then-hyphen in front of a word means in favour of, such as 'pro-communism'.

Or possibly you were offering me tips on prostitution?

[Fellend]

No need and wrong is not the same thing ;)

[wkz]

Hmmmmmmm... I barely lasted until page 10 or so before I gave up... I kept seeing repeats of 3 points in those 10 pages thou, so on the off-chance the points are still relevant let me set up this response:

#1 Mat Ward Suxs, he just doesn't care! He has no respect for the old fluff!!
Well, I got to give this to you, this looks really bad (still reeling from the "Necrons and BA made sweet, sweet...*ugh*... war buddies with each other")...

Except one thing: this has been ongoing for quite a while now. It has appeared in Codex Orkz, it has appeared in Codex IG, it has appeared in Codex Tyranids. HELL, it has appeared in Codex TAU back in 4th Edition! Why are you complain THIS loudly for THIS particular case, when in general fluff has been going down the "more grim, more dark, more insanity, more... for the sake of more!!" toilet for the last decade, if not more?!??

Let me explain: There are 3 trends that ALWAYS happens in a new Codex's fluff:
- First, the army of the Codex gets lots of awesomesauce, regardless of whether the codex army get beaten or not in the end. This helps sell models.
- Second, some event will have the target of the Codex (and various side-mentions on the side) retconned towards the Evilz... or did it? Can you read behind the lines and see how rose-tinted the codex is? Can you spot the propagandist viewpoints, either Imperial or otherwise, written into the fluff?
- And lastly, all of the changes above will somehow contribute to MORE Grimdark: the 40k galaxy WILL ALWAYS get just that bit more worse because the army (or side-mentions) is more awesomesauce AND retconned towards the Evilz.

Take the above-mentioned Tau for example. Yes, the Tau. At the time of their initial release, they were the Champions of the Greater Good! The actual, ONLY, Democratic-like, Freedom-loving race in the entire game! Great were their compassionate, they were the ONLY race in the history of 40k to actually offer you peace, and do that BEFORE all the bullets fly! Oh look at how the Imperium responds, with all their little ships and what not to defend what they have lost through ineptness, such pettiness... don't worry, The Tau will mobilize their far-superior tech, gather their vast allies, kick much arses soon enough and THEN give the peace offer to defect again, because they're just that nice.

Between then and the newest codex, the bad news keep coming in. What? The Tau cannot expand much because their faster-than-light sucks, thus they're doomed to be a small empire? Oooooo, Imperium Scientists think the Tau use pheromone mind-control? Hey, Tau society is divided into castes, and you don't have a choice in the matter? That sucks... What? "Peace, or die" is the fine print in their peace offers?? Oooooo, they have an actual to goodness REBELLION in their ranks?? Ouch, that's a major defeat there in the Damocles Gulf, they're "lucky" the 13th crusade happened. *Wince* getting shot up by Orkz can't be nice when the Orkz did the shooting using Tau weapons. Gah, the Tyranids just went though their colonies like a hot knife through butter...

How in the world is this army still around in the fluff? The amount of damage the Tau Empire took for such a "little spot in the big galaxy" is ludicrous... the Empire should be a bunch of lifeless husks of planets by now...

...

See what happened up there? That's what happened in the Grey Knights too... or rather, what happened to the Tau's update back then for a really old codex is happening NOW to the Grey Knights' really old codex's update!

But there is one thing I'll agree with you, Mat Ward's writing sucks. This I am not going to deny (seriously, POACH Dan Abnett for all the codex fluff articles already!!). But the Grey Knights getting a dose of "Awesome, Evil-dark shades and thus the 40k galaxy going to hell in a hand basket" is probably only Mat Ward following company policies, a policy that has been in force for a long, long time.

Once again, WHY are you only complaining now? 'tis 40k! Over the top Grim Dark is the reason why we're all here in the first place!!


#2 But but but... Sisters are incorruptible. Grey Knights are puresause McPure. Both of them don't need to do/have that done to them!! That fluff article is HORRIBLE because it ignores the pure essence of Grey Knights and Sisters!!

I got (horrible?) news for you: Yes and no.

The Grey Knight may not have lost a single knight to daemonic temptation, BUT they're not out and out the good guys you think they are. Even back then, ("back then" being the era before they start getting tainted the GW way, see point #1 above) they were so single-minded in their duty that they would attack allies to fulfill their role... this is part of their ORIGINAL fluff: Attacking Allies! For anti-Daemonic purposes!!

And in the latest codex, what are they up to? Yup, their old standby: Attacking ALLIES! For anti-Daemonic purposes!!

Then we have Sisters. Through various fluff... they weaponize FAITH, chop and maim heretics, burninate heretics, capture AND THEN burninate heretics, mount up heretics on pain machines... and for the worst of the worse, for a particular inquisitor (which bled into the C:GK) finding innocents and declare them guilty for looking guilty!

BOTH Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights may be holy and pure and able to resist chaos... but for a very perverted, different shade of "Holy and Pure". But make no mistakes: they BOTH are not nice guys.

So the Grey Knights have the upper hand this time around (hey, give them a break, its their shiny new codex) as they're so awesomely single-minded in their purpose so as to callously side-swipe a "pure" ally on the off-chance mixing blood in their army can improve their successes... but I have no doubt when C:Sisters comes along the same bunch of "Puresause McAwesome of the female persuasion" WILL have a single fluff article, at least, which will make them look more like "Trigger-happy Harpies of Suspicion and Distrust in a Hive/Habitat full of not-so-Corrupt Excesses" to offset some of the nicer "birds fly, trees grow and the good guys win" fluff articles...

And if we're dragging the Black Library into this... hey lookie, an actual, honest to goodness corrupted-by-Chaos Grey Knight (well... technically the BODY is corrupted, not the mind)! And over there!! Corrupted sisters!! Oh my!!

But the worst happened in the Horus Heresy novels: WHO wrote the holy tomb venerating the GOD-Emperor, that the Sisters are probably chanting verses from all day long? WHO created the tarot cards Inquisitors use to determine the life and death of entire planets?? WHY is the Church of the God-Emperor at its state in the 41st millennium, despite the Emperor forbidding worship of himself as a holy thing??

Because of Logar. Because of a Primach who turned to Chaos, boys and girls. Because of a Primach who may have been affected by the forces of Chaos even before his incubation pod crashed into a planet after the scattering. That's right: his ENTIRE LIFE as a Primach may be tainted and is suspect!! And his teachings are now USED (and you better follow the faith, or ELSE!) in EVERY CORNER of ALL the Imperium.

In short: the "Holy" in the Imperium... is technically the work of CHAOS!

It just does not get grimmer and darker than this.


#3 Why in the world Mat Ward still have a job in GW?!? He should be lynched!!
Simple: He may suck in fluff, but he writes good rules. And by "good rules" I meant Rules good enough to sell models without being game-breakingly "field this model to win" bad... *looks over at WFB*...


PS:
#4 But!! Sisters' blood is not some daemon-bane!! What the Grey Knights did is outright stupidity, and Sisters are being marginalized as a token victim yet again!!
I will only answer this when I read the actual fluff article in C:GK...
...
... but please don't raise the victim card. There were a LOT of victims before Sisters even came along... hell, they usually have LESS codex articles and "sidenotes in history" about them being victims than most.

Also, Sisters have a poor enough exposure already inside the main codexes, having a main-fluff codex article (is it a major-fluff codex article?) devoted to them is always nice. And being the victim, you can always claim that Sisters are puresause-McPure, while GKs are bat**** insane... oh wait, you're doing that now...

[BuFFo]

lol

My Dark Eldar fluff only got better and everything fits the race perfectly. :D

Must suck to be Imperial player.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

But the worst happened in the Horus Heresy novels: WHO wrote the holy tomb venerating the GOD-Emperor, that the Sisters are probably chanting verses from all day long? WHO created the tarot cards Inquisitors use to determine the life and death of entire planets?? WHY is the Church of the God-Emperor at its state in the 41st millennium, despite the Emperor forbidding worship of himself as a holy thing??

Because of Logar. Because of a Primach who turned to Chaos, boys and girls. Because of a Primach who may have been affected by the forces of Chaos even before his incubation pod crashed into a planet after the scattering. That's right: his ENTIRE LIFE as a Primach may be tainted and is suspect!! And his teachings are now USED (and you better follow the faith, or ELSE!) in EVERY CORNER of ALL the Imperium.

In short: the "Holy" in the Imperium... is technically the work of CHAOS!

.

What an irony - Only the truly divine deny their divinity. The Emperor chastises Lorgar (in spectacular ways) for putting him on a pedestal, but performs miracles via faithful vessels such as Euphrati Keeler? It was his mission to save humanity using his divinity, but didn't want to be depended on to do so. And so in the end, Lorgar gets exactly what he first wanted - the Imperium to worshop the Emperor as a God - except now he's more into the Chaos Gods and thinks they're much better than his Dad. Sheesh, this is like a galactic Jerry Springer/Jeremy Kyle epic...

[eldargal]

Someone should send Ward a little poster with a picture of the Eldar and Dark Eldar codices and the words 'What Would Phil Kelly Do?' on it.:rolleyes:

Honestly though, you are absolutely right, the Dark Eldar fluff (and rules for that matter) in the codex is brilliant, I've read it three or four times over already and it is still good. Though that didn't stop me failing to realise Lelith has a 4++ save against shooting.




lol

My Dark Eldar fluff only got better and everything fits the race perfectly. :D

Must suck to be Imperial player.

[house_cawdor]

Uhhhhh....Tau have always had the same fluff...Farsight really isn't that out of place....His fluff presents him differently...They aren't saying anything contradictory between the 3rd and 4th Edition Tau Codex. Farsight was a new character. Destroying established fluff is slightly different.

[Xabraxis]

Don't even start this! Denzark absolutely LOVES irritating grammatically correct people and/or grammar fascists.
Ref: Brass Scorpions thread in the Oubliette about 'finite' being the root word of definite' and other errors (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=12173). Hell, Denzark's signature is a response to this thread, combined with the topic of FSM.

Haha, thanks for the warning. I'll be sure to just ignore anything he says from here on out. Anyways it was him trying to be the ****, so it was fair game to poke little holes in his sail. His second post is pointless and not worth the dust it was spit on :)


What an irony - Only the truly divine deny their divinity. The Emperor chastises Lorgar (in spectacular ways) for putting him on a pedestal, but performs miracles via faithful vessels such as Euphrati Keeler? It was his mission to save humanity using his divinity, but didn't want to be depended on to do so. And so in the end, Lorgar gets exactly what he first wanted - the Imperium to worshop the Emperor as a God - except now he's more into the Chaos Gods and thinks they're much better than his Dad. Sheesh, this is like a galactic Jerry Springer/Jeremy Kyle epic...

Well there is a lot of credence in the fluff to the entire ecclesiarchy being a chaos plot. The man spends his entire life saying that he is not a religion, and when he dies he's made into a religion. On top of that, All the Primarchs have either turned to chaos, disappeared, dead, or are mangled and regenerating. So no one is there to tell them otherwise.
In fact the very nature of how the Imperium fuels each of the chaos gods!

Anyways, Matt Ward's abomination would actually become much better if in sixth ed, the main book mentions a possible fall to chaos within the GK.

Yea, hexagrammic wards and all on their bones. But hey, look at Crowe's sword. You'd think that if it caused people around him to explode if their THOUGHTS turned to chaos, he wouldn't be allowed to carry it out to battle. Since Sorcery leads to mutations WHAT IF Tzeentch, being the schemer that he is, set the GK up to create a eugenics program designed to weed out those that are mutated through the use of sorcery and those that aren't.

They're totally set up to be the Anakin of the 40k universe. Without the horrible script and actors(Well, almost.) "Oh they're the chosen ones!" And then replace the youngling massacre with the SoB massacre....

[Paul]

I am not prepared to read all fifteen pages, but that daemon weapon that no one can use without the sky falling could have been dumped in the Hadex, problem solved.

I love you man. The Hadex Anomaly is the answer to the Imperium's problems.

Chaos? Throw it into the Hadex!
Tau? Lead them to the Hadex.
Tyranids? Lure them into the Hadex.
Necrons? Probably created the Hadex, so no-go. If the BA fluff is right: make friends?

etc.

lol

[Notanoob]

One of the problems about this fluff is that if you get past what at face value seems to be heresy, the GKs are just being stupid. If they bloodtide is such a damn problem that you have to cover yourself in blood to protect yourself, why not just load the remaining Sobs and GKs into a Thunderhawk and fly over it, locate the Bloodthirster and order an orbital bombardment then land and banish him for good? Why not just use those fancy teleporters to go directly into battle with the BT to minimize contact with the bloodtide? No, lets just walk are risk becoming bloodthirsty maniacs as opposed to the sensible thing.

Same thing with the demonsword. Okay, fine he can have the sword, as he's not drawing on it's power, but why risk loosing it to a guy whose only use is in running really close to the enemy? He's not very tough, only W2 with no invulnerable save, so it wouldn't be very difficult to shoot him up and grab the thing. Furthermore, it's actively corrupting everyone around it, so why have it on a ship with a bunch of serfs and such who can be easily corrupted, or carry it to functions and corrupt the IG commanders whom you're plotting your attack on some demons with, as opposed to sealed away in the deepest vaults on Titan and guarded by a bunch of Purifiers, and only ever telling Draigo and Crowe about it? That'd be a lot safer.

[Paul]

One of the problems about this fluff is that if you get past what at face value seems to be heresy, the GKs are just being stupid. If they bloodtide is such a damn problem that you have to cover yourself in blood to protect yourself, why not just load the remaining Sobs and GKs into a Thunderhawk and fly over it, locate the Bloodthirster and order an orbital bombardment then land and banish him for good? Why not just use those fancy teleporters to go directly into battle with the BT to minimize contact with the bloodtide? No, lets just walk are risk becoming bloodthirsty maniacs as opposed to the sensible thing.

Same thing with the demonsword. Okay, fine he can have the sword, as he's not drawing on it's power, but why risk loosing it to a guy whose only use is in running really close to the enemy? He's not very tough, only W2 with no invulnerable save, so it wouldn't be very difficult to shoot him up and grab the thing. Furthermore, it's actively corrupting everyone around it, so why have it on a ship with a bunch of serfs and such who can be easily corrupted, or carry it to functions and corrupt the IG commanders whom you're plotting your attack on some demons with, as opposed to sealed away in the deepest vaults on Titan and guarded by a bunch of Purifiers, and only ever telling Draigo and Crowe about it? That'd be a lot safer.

I wondered this as well. I could totally see Crowe eating a Vanquisher shell, then some random tanker picking up his sword and suddenly, a planet falls (or something).

Wouldn't it make sense to put the sword somewhere where it can't be captured by a squad of Storm Troopers with plasma guns?

[HsojVvad]

Haven't read the codex full yet, I had to stop once Titan was moved to the "warp" and disapeared for years only to come back. As for the Daemon sword being possessed, why didn't he do the Obi Wan Kenobi stick? You hold onto it, but you hide and become a hermit.

Going into battle where you can drop it, or it be taken away from you during battle or you even die and then it's taken aways is just STUPID!.

Also what is this crap about needing pure blood? If they needed it that in that instance, why don't they do it all the time then? This is just like how 1000s of psychers a day to feed him, so wouldn't this mean that 100's or 1000's would have to die for GK as well then to they can be purified? This is so lame.

I can't wait to go to a GW store next time, and if I see parents I will be talking to them about how they like they 10 year olds reading and playing GK on how they murder billions just because they saw them, or how innocent space nuns were slaughtered so some GK could be "purified".

How can GW market to little kids, but the stories are very adult oriented. Hmmm... think it's time to speak to the goverment about having an 18+ label listed on GW games now. :p

[Connjurus]

Haven't read the codex full yet, I had to stop once Titan was moved to the "warp" and disapeared for years only to come back. As for the Daemon sword being possessed, why didn't he do the Obi Wan Kenobi stick? You hold onto it, but you hide and become a hermit.

Going into battle where you can drop it, or it be taken away from you during battle or you even die and then it's taken aways is just STUPID!.

Also what is this crap about needing pure blood? If they needed it that in that instance, why don't they do it all the time then? This is just like how 1000s of psychers a day to feed him, so wouldn't this mean that 100's or 1000's would have to die for GK as well then to they can be purified? This is so lame.

I can't wait to go to a GW store next time, and if I see parents I will be talking to them about how they like they 10 year olds reading and playing GK on how they murder billions just because they saw them, or how innocent space nuns were slaughtered so some GK could be "purified".

How can GW market to little kids, but the stories are very adult oriented. Hmmm... think it's time to speak to the goverment about having an 18+ label listed on GW games now. :p

What a serpentine path your logic follows.

[w7west]

Don't worry, the extra bad *** fluff is just there to hide the fact that gk's are a bunch of ******* who get tabled turn one by DE

[DarkLink]

Does it also hid the fact that GKs have the firepower to kill half a DE army in a single turn? For every unit of dark lances the DE have, Gks have a Psyrifle Dread or a psycannon. And once all their Raiders and Ravagers are dead, it's easy to storm bolter everything else to death.


What is it with all the "DE is an autowin against Gks"? Yes, Gks are a little more vulnerable than normal Marines to Dark Lances. But y'know what DE are vulnerable to? Lots and lots of str 7/8 shooting. And, oh, hey, what do Grey Knights have a $%^#-ton of? Yeah, that's what I though.


No one is auto-winning against anyone here.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Page fifteen of the new GK codex... "The Bloodtide Returns"...


Basically Grey Knights come across a planet with a daemonsword or somesuch, which was corrupting the planet. There was a convent of Sisters whose faith was keeping them pure and untouched by the taint, and instead of asking for the Sisters' assistance the Grey Knights slaughter them all, desecrate the bodies, and then smear the blood of the Sisters all over their armor, then go about systematically destroying everything on the planet and taking the daemon sword for themselves.

Good job Matt Ward, you turned the incorruptible Grey Knights into champions of Khorne and once again used Sisters as a scratching post to kill and toss aside. You sick, demented freak who masquerades as a writer. **** you and everything you stand for.

I wish I was a Dark Eldar, just so I could feed off the excessive emotion in this post. Dear god, never seen anyone react so strongly to a piece of fiction before. Well, there were the death threats Malcolm McDowell received for playing the character that killed Captain Kirk . . . fans *sigh*.

[scadugenga]

Does it also hid the fact that GKs have the firepower to kill half a DE army in a single turn? For every unit of dark lances the DE have, Gks have a Psyrifle Dread or a psycannon. And once all their Raiders and Ravagers are dead, it's easy to storm bolter everything else to death.


What is it with all the "DE is an autowin against Gks"? Yes, Gks are a little more vulnerable than normal Marines to Dark Lances. But y'know what DE are vulnerable to? Lots and lots of str 7/8 shooting. And, oh, hey, what do Grey Knights have a $%^#-ton of? Yeah, that's what I though.


No one is auto-winning against anyone here.

Don't forget the hordes of str 5 storm bolter potential. :)

The only place where DE are going to have the superior edge over GK is in close combat w/wyches.

[madlib]

I'm with Melissia. I would also like to point out that there is a significant younger part of the audience reading these codexes. I have two sons who started playing 40K at about age 10. I am not sure that the fluff should be generating the images that Melissia described even if it wasn't misogynistic.


I don't think 40k is meant for 10 yr olds. No offense. It's a universe centered on merciless intragalactic warfare.
Brutality, evil, xenophobia, bloodshed, and many other non 10 yr old friendly themes abound. Even the "heroes" in the 40k universe skirt the moral line.

Though I do agree that the Codex books definitely are marketed towards a wider audience than say the Forge World books.

[w7west]

Does it also hid the fact that GKs have the firepower to kill half a DE army in a single turn? For every unit of dark lances the DE have, Gks have a Psyrifle Dread or a psycannon. And once all their Raiders and Ravagers are dead, it's easy to storm bolter everything else to death.


What is it with all the "DE is an autowin against Gks"? Yes, Gks are a little more vulnerable than normal Marines to Dark Lances. But y'know what DE are vulnerable to? Lots and lots of str 7/8 shooting. And, oh, hey, what do Grey Knights have a $%^#-ton of? Yeah, that's what I though.


No one is auto-winning against anyone here.

It's not gonna work (night shield good game)

edit: Not trying to be a 8===D but gk has no chance if de player knows what he is doing and brought his venoms

[Morgan Darkstar]

It's not gonna work (night shield good game)

edit: Not trying to be a 8===D but gk has no chance if de player knows what he is doing and brought his venoms

Did you read this?


No one is auto-winning against anyone here.

As much as GW may not be perfect i think they are competent enough to put out codexes that are relatively balanced sure on may be slightly more powerful but not "I R AUTO WIN"

i have played Space Marines, Tau, IG and Tyranids against a good Dark Eldar Player and won, I have also lost and drawn against them

Beliving one army is Auto Win is the province of 10 year olds.

[DadExtraordinaire]

Except that ignores the whole 'SoB are not corruptible and don't get subjected to the same treatment as IG and civilians when exposed to taint' thing. What is next? GK slaughtering Space Marine chapters for fighting Chaos? Look at armageddon (or was it duringthe Black Crusade), the civilian populations cleansed, tainted SM chapters that the SoB were hunting down, the SoB were not cleansed. You have the most loyal, incorruptible servants of the Emperor being reduced to a buff for the sodding Grey Knights for no good reason, that is against all previous fluff.
Fact it this is the most absurd piece of fluff in the book. You have the incorruptible killing the incorruptible to bathe in their blood like bloody Khorne worshippers. Try and rationalise it all you want by making nonsense up about the SoB forfeit anyway, but the fact is that has never been the case. The fluff makes no sense, what the GK did makes no sense, why they did it makes no sense. Why not ask for a few pints of blood then work with them?:rolleyes:

So, lets see the Grey Knights exterminating the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves etcetera each time they fight Chaos, because that is the same level this is at in terms of logic. So have never been subjected to cleansing before for the same reason GK aren't. To havve this retconned to make the GK seem even more special is just despicable.


So just to be clear:
SoB were not going to be cleansed, because they are never cleansed.
The whole reason the GK killed them was because of their purity.
The GK bathed in the blood of the pure.
If the GK needed the blood to stay incorrupible, then the SoB are less corriptible than they.
So why not send them against the taint you can't defend against?

So many holes in this rubbish, it makes Draigo look positively rational.

Having finished reading the codex for the 2nd time I agree with your sentiments. There are a number of glaringly obvious mistakes with the stories that are mentioned in this and other codices and I am unsure as to why? Usually Alan Merrett / Phil Kelly / JJ quality controls all fluff in any publication including the website....yet this codex seems to lack some quality control.

Substantively, the structure and context is bordering on chaotic, the point about the SOB is that it seems they would have been terminated or certainly taken aboard the Black ships to an Inquisition prison, irrespectively. However, what I do not understand is, why the process of eliminating some hardy soldiers who stood up to Chaos for their blood, when it would have been better if the GK acted in concert with the SOB by taking blood from the SOB (still keeping them alive via syringe etc) and painting it on to their weapons and armour ( as in "Deathwing" story) and tackled the problem that way, and once the situation was under control a Black ship appears and the Sisters go off for some serious debrief. That would have flowed and tied in with other pieces of fluff coherently better.

The bit about eliminating SM because they fought Daemons is well...hmmm....suspect? and Lord Draigo fluff is another oddity. Crowe's daemon sword again odd game effect...and so on. There are oddities about why the Psycannon and Incinerator have lost their Invul save removal and yet fluff is written about how these weapons are so good and technologically advanced that no one else has them and yet....what purpose do they really serve if they are only another weapon with a high strength and low AP??? Better I think, if they follower the fluff and would good either anti-psyker or anti-daemon....

There are more inconsistencies in this codex than in any other. Still, the DE codex has to be one of the best.....yet and if PK does the Eldar well, I might even add to my meagre force of Eldar!

[George Labour]

Well if you want a game where things flow more cloesly to the fluff then you might try the various 40k RPGs. Since they write things to make them fit the themes of the universe rather than having to balance them to the tabletop the results are more 'fluffly' in many case.

In fact there's already psycannons in Dark Heresy, and an upcoming supplement will let you play as Grey Knights. the sisters book also includes a lot of faith powers that let you do anything from inspire troops, to cage daemons, and survive being blown up. Also little cherubs that hid in dark places, then jump out to flagellate you to remind you of your sins.

There's always going to be a disconnect between how the fluff works and how the game mechanics work. Whether you think that's poor game design or just an attempt to make every army worthwhile against all others is a matter of opinion.

[DadExtraordinaire]

Well if you want a game where things flow more cloesly to the fluff then you might try the various 40k RPGs. Since they write things to make them fit the themes of the universe rather than having to balance them to the tabletop the results are more 'fluffly' in many case.

In fact there's already psycannons in Dark Heresy, and an upcoming supplement will let you play as Grey Knights. the sisters book also includes a lot of faith powers that let you do anything from inspire troops, to cage daemons, and survive being blown up. Also little cherubs that hid in dark places, then jump out to flagellate you to remind you of your sins.

There's always going to be a disconnect between how the fluff works and how the game mechanics work. Whether you think that's poor game design or just an attempt to make every army worthwhile against all others is a matter of opinion.

Hey George, thanks for that. I liked Inquisitor game alot so, this Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader sounds very interesting indeed. Is it similar to the old D&D? or more akin to Inquisitor? Thank you.

[DadExtraordinaire]

I wish I was a Dark Eldar, just so I could feed off the excessive emotion in this post. Dear god, never seen anyone react so strongly to a piece of fiction before. Well, there were the death threats Malcolm McDowell received for playing the character that killed Captain Kirk . . . fans *sigh*.

I agree. A some what juvenile response to a piece of fiction and oh, why the hate for Matt Ward....

[Xabraxis]

I agree. A some what juvenile response to a piece of fiction and oh, why the hate for Matt Ward....

Actually this whole situation is closer to Twilight fans(Matt Ward Fans) vs the world.

[Lerra]

Here's how I would have written this piece of fluff:

The whole planet is corrupted by chaos, save a small band of Sisters whose intense faith has kept them pure. They join the Grey Knights in a battle against a horde of Khornate daemons. They slaughter the daemons but take heavy casualties. Only three Grey Knights and one Sister still stand when a Bloodthirster approaches. The warriors battle valiantly, but it's clear that they will lose this battle, until the lone sister grabs the hand of a Grey Knight, places his hand on her hilt, and then plunges the sword into her own heart.

The Grey Knight wields the sword, sanctified by the blood of the faithful, to slay the Bloodthirster.

[wkz]

Here's how I would have written this piece of fluff:

The whole planet is corrupted by chaos, save a small band of Sisters whose intense faith has kept them pure. They join the Grey Knights in a battle against a horde of Khornate daemons. They slaughter the daemons but take heavy casualties. Only three Grey Knights and one Sister still stand when a Bloodthirster approaches. The warriors battle valiantly, but it's clear that they will lose this battle, until the lone sister grabs the hand of a Grey Knight, places his hand on her hilt, and then plunges the sword into her own heart.

The Grey Knight wields the sword, sanctified by the blood of the faithful, to slay the Bloodthirster.

That will be what I expect from a Sister's codex (in the future), as the focus of the "Awesome" is on the sister's selfless sacrifice (as per "GW's unwritten new codex's fluff rules IMO" in my post 3 pages back)

Unfortunately, the codex in question is C:GK. Thus the focus of the "Awesome" is directly on the GKs themselves, and GW will never allow someone else's "Awesome" to overshadow this focus... so the above cannot and did not happen.

[HsojVvad]

Actually this whole situation is closer to Twilight fans(Matt Ward Fans) vs the world.

Glittering Vampires and Twilight is Sooo much better compared to Matt Wards writing now. :eek:

Pretty shamefull that Stephine Myer can do a better job than Matt Ward in writing fluff.

[Fellend]

Here's how I would have written this piece of fluff:

The whole planet is corrupted by chaos, save a small band of Sisters whose intense faith has kept them pure. They join the Grey Knights in a battle against a horde of Khornate daemons. They slaughter the daemons but take heavy casualties. Only three Grey Knights and one Sister still stand when a Bloodthirster approaches. The warriors battle valiantly, but it's clear that they will lose this battle, until the lone sister grabs the hand of a Grey Knight, places his hand on her hilt, and then plunges the sword into her own heart.

The Grey Knight wields the sword, sanctified by the blood of the faithful, to slay the Bloodthirster.

So basically? The magical properties of the SOB blood is still there, the only thing you really changed was that SOB didn't get pwned by the Grey Knights instead chose to sacrifice themselves?
Yeah...this is not at all about army favortism...

[HsojVvad]

So basically? The magical properties of the SOB blood is still there, the only thing you really changed was that SOB didn't get pwned by the Grey Knights instead chose to sacrifice themselves?
Yeah...this is not at all about army favortism...

What I want to know is, if the GK had to do it once, doesn't that mean they have to do it all the time then? Why was it only one time? So how come the GK can do all these mighty deeds without using the "magic blood" other times then?

This just makes no sense at all. This would mean that GK gather people up like cattle and just slaughter them so they can "consencrate" themselves from the Pure and Innoncent humans that they can find then.

[scadugenga]

So basically? The magical properties of the SOB blood is still there, the only thing you really changed was that SOB didn't get pwned by the Grey Knights instead chose to sacrifice themselves?
Yeah...this is not at all about army favortism...

No, it's about self-sacrifice, rather than a ridiculous homage to Khorne. Or Dark Eldar. Or Dark Elves. Take your pick.

All three bathe in the blood of their victims.

Guess Matt Ward's fluff-writing makes the GK's just like them?

Lerra's interpretation on how to make Ward's crap-fest of a story into something that actually works within the established canon is easily more believable, and acceptable than what is found in the book.

Personally I've never been all that much of a fan of the SOB, so I have no particular self-serving interest in putting them on a pedestal. I do, however, have a marked interest in the general quality of GW's writing improving as they mature, rather than devolving into something that pulp magazine editors would circular-file after reading a few sentences.



What I want to know is, if the GK had to do it once, doesn't that mean they have to do it all the time then? Why was it only one time? So how come the GK can do all these mighty deeds without using the "magic blood" other times then?

This just makes no sense at all. This would mean that GK gather people up like cattle and just slaughter them so they can "consencrate" themselves from the Pure and Innoncent humans that they can find then.

That's because that modus operandi is already taken. There's an established group that pretty much corners the market on that in the 40k cosmos.

Of course, they're called chaos cults...

[Fellend]

why just this time? Who knows maybe they do it all the time? And to be frankly, who in the 40k universe does not bathe in blood?
We have the blood angels, they sure do enjoy bathing in it, going so far as to be possessed by blood lust.
Orks seem to enjoy it allthough more in a HAH HAH, I gotz ur bloodz on me!
Tyranids well, they just want to eat you, blood and all.

This piece of fluff has really only one point. The GK are willing to do whatever it takes to get the mission done.
The SOB was chosen to represent the good because lets face it, the Imperium hasn't got that much else that can be called pure.
The reason why it only worked this time. Well there was the whole Bloodtide thing, which seems to have to do with blood. Maybe if it was nurgle they'd bathe in the innocents snot?
Come on lets face it, if it wasn't for the whole SOB thing, no one would even have noticed it. SM and IG are sacrificed all the time.

And Matts writing I'm guessing is trying to hammer in a point. The GK are no longer the goodie-two-shoes of the Imperium, they are just as dark, uncaring and hypocritical as everyone else. Dealing with aliens to kill aliens, dealing with daemon weapons to slay daemons, dealing with sorcery to slay sorcerers and apparantly dealing with blood rituals to stop blood rituals.
I'm not going to defend the fluff itself because it's painfully obvious in theme and intent, it could have been written much better but there's nothing strange with it. There's nothing inherently wrong with sacrificing good guys to beat the bad guys, it's what the Imperium does

[eldargal]

The point of the piece isn't the point (haw). the fact is it depicts the GK needing to use SoB blood as a buff, fair enough. But why? Because they believe they will be corrupted, despite the presence of uncorrupted SoB. so for all their 666 rituals, runes, training etcetera etcetera a Grey Knight is just as corruptible as a regular SoB. Then you have the fact that instead of asking a bunch of female soldiers with a martyr complex to sarifice themselves for the mission, they just kill them. On a planet tainted by the Blood god, they murder willing allies and daub themselves in their blood.

The implication being that GK are corruptible AND in fact were corrupted is what is silly about this, with the SoB thing secondary. It is amusing to watch the GK players desperately defending this piece of fluff when it messes with the GK more than the SoB.:rolleyes:

[scadugenga]

why just this time? Who knows maybe they do it all the time? And to be frankly, who in the 40k universe does not bathe in blood?


Then please be so good as to provide examples of other upright "good guys" in the 40k 'verse who anoint themselves in the blood of their victims to further their own goals.

I'm not talking figuratively here, mind you. I would like concrete examples, preferably quoted for proof of their existence, rather than just allegory glossed over with outdated netspeak.

Otherwise, you're no longer providing counterpoint, you're just at the trolling level now. :)

[eldargal]

Never before have Imperium forces been seen using blood, the only comparable thing I ca think of is a renege SM chapter which started sacrificing people. they were investigatd by the Inquisition, ultimately sacrificing a bunch of Celestians and a female Inquisitor before being declared Traitors.

[Melissia]

Yes, Sons of Malice if I remember correctly.

[HsojVvad]

why just this time? Who knows maybe they do it all the time? And to be frankly, who in the 40k universe does not bathe in blood?
We have the blood angels, they sure do enjoy bathing in it, going so far as to be possessed by blood lust.
Orks seem to enjoy it allthough more in a HAH HAH, I gotz ur bloodz on me!
Tyranids well, they just want to eat you, blood and all.

This piece of fluff has really only one point. The GK are willing to do whatever it takes to get the mission done.
The SOB was chosen to represent the good because lets face it, the Imperium hasn't got that much else that can be called pure.
The reason why it only worked this time. Well there was the whole Bloodtide thing, which seems to have to do with blood. Maybe if it was nurgle they'd bathe in the innocents snot?
Come on lets face it, if it wasn't for the whole SOB thing, no one would even have noticed it. SM and IG are sacrificed all the time.

And Matts writing I'm guessing is trying to hammer in a point. The GK are no longer the goodie-two-shoes of the Imperium, they are just as dark, uncaring and hypocritical as everyone else. Dealing with aliens to kill aliens, dealing with daemon weapons to slay daemons, dealing with sorcery to slay sorcerers and apparantly dealing with blood rituals to stop blood rituals.
I'm not going to defend the fluff itself because it's painfully obvious in theme and intent, it could have been written much better but there's nothing strange with it. There's nothing inherently wrong with sacrificing good guys to beat the bad guys, it's what the Imperium does

Ok, I get it SM are ****s, the WWII N name, and the GK are worse than them. Point made clearly. I just would love to see what the parents think of thier little Timmy playing wiht models that are suppose to be worse than the WWII N word.

[Fellend]

I actually can't be bothered to look every blood reference in the book, google at lexicanum but for example.
BLOOD angels, with the BLOOD of their primarch, which they all drink at initiation... I'd call that a blood ritual.

I can't find it on GW's homepage anymore but on the old Black Templar page (before they updated the page) there was an example fight using the starting models that the fluff went basically.

One side thinks the other side is reveling a bit to much in the bloodshed, and tells the chaplain, he tells them to kill them to purge them. The to much being the important part.

He have the flesh tearers who... wait, tears flesh? Eats their opponents and so on

This is all just on the top of my head. If I could be bothered to do research I bet you I can find more.

HsojVvad
Have you read anything about the Imperium? It makes the ww2 germans seem like babies in comparison. The fluff in wh40k really isn't meant for children.

[eldargal]

The Blood Angels drink their primarchs blood, not their allies, and I have vague memories of the Inquisition thinking it is a bit dody but that may be old 2nd ed fluff.

[gcsmith]

Actually they drink the blood of a Priest Sangunius which I would count as an ally :p

I think the idea behind the blood thing of the SOB is how big the blood diesease was that their 666 rituals were not enough and only the blood of the emperors chosen could beat the blood of chaos.

Still all that fluff does is make them seem like wusses. Lets compare to my fave chapter the BT.

On one hand you have knights of 'pure' intent 'uncorrptable' and bathe in the blood in their allies to keep them 'faithful'

On the other you have knights who are crusading for a transgression which wasnt their primarchs fault, and whose faith protects them from anything even ignoring their cover in the name of the emperor.

Hmm i think i know who seems superior.

[Fellend]

The Blood Angels drink their primarchs blood, not their allies, and I have vague memories of the Inquisition thinking it is a bit dody but that may be old 2nd ed fluff.

At least in the BL books, they mix in their own blood before they drink it, but that doesn't really help, I mean drinking your primarchs blood doesn't make it different. It's still a blood ritual were the power of blood is relevant.
Not to mention that they name pretty much anything they can think of Blood this and Blood that.

[eldargal]

There is a huge, huge difference between internal hazing/bonding rituals amongst comrades involving blood and blood sacrifice of allies. Especially when that blood sacrifice occurs on a world tainted by the Blood God, and those allies remained uncorrupted and you need their blood to avoid corruption despite the fact you are literally built to withstand corruption.:rolleyes:


Also arn't the Inquisition very concerned about the Blood Angels? I may be misremembering old fluff but the increasing numbers of Death Company and the odd behaviour of BA successors were making the Inquisition think the BA geneseed was degenerating.

[scadugenga]

I actually can't be bothered to look every blood reference in the book, google at lexicanum but for example.
BLOOD angels, with the BLOOD of their primarch, which they all drink at initiation... I'd call that a blood ritual.

I can't find it on GW's homepage anymore but on the old Black Templar page (before they updated the page) there was an example fight using the starting models that the fluff went basically.

One side thinks the other side is reveling a bit to much in the bloodshed, and tells the chaplain, he tells them to kill them to purge them. The to much being the important part.

He have the flesh tearers who... wait, tears flesh? Eats their opponents and so on

This is all just on the top of my head. If I could be bothered to do research I bet you I can find more.



Got it, so you're just trolling now. Not willing to provide any actual examples to back up your point, etc.

Check.

Moving on...

[wittdooley]

There is a huge, huge difference between internal hazing/bonding rituals amongst comrades involving blood and blood sacrifice of allies. Especially when that blood sacrifice occurs on a world tainted by the Blood God, and those allies remained uncorrupted and you need their blood to avoid corruption despite the fact you are literally built to withstand corruption.:rolleyes:


Also arn't the Inquisition very concerned about the Blood Angels? I may be misremembering old fluff but the increasing numbers of Death Company and the odd behaviour of BA successors were making the Inquisition think the BA geneseed was degenerating.

You'd be correct, particularly since the BAs were just effing around with a *******ized version of Corax's cloning process to try and get rid of 'the flaw.'

[Fellend]

There is a huge, huge difference between internal hazing/bonding rituals amongst comrades involving blood and blood sacrifice of allies. Especially when that blood sacrifice occurs on a world tainted by the Blood God, and those allies remained uncorrupted and you need their blood to avoid corruption despite the fact you are literally built to withstand corruption.:rolleyes:


Also arn't the Inquisition very concerned about the Blood Angels? I may be misremembering old fluff but the increasing numbers of Death Company and the odd behaviour of BA successors were making the Inquisition think the BA geneseed was degenerating.

Of course there is a difference, what I'm simply pointing out is that there is support for the power of blood magic pointed out in other books. Of course they aren't killing their own to get the power they need because they have it themselves.
But what if the GK needed that magical power and they killed blood angels to get blood rage?


Got it, so you're just trolling now. Not willing to provide any actual examples to back up your point, etc.

Check.

Moving on...

What? I just gave you the examples. I'm not going to spend my evening printing it down for you. Who's trolling here? Just go read it.

[DarkLink]

But of course you're a troll, Fellend. You didn't bend over to his every demand and worship his brilliance:rolleyes:

[scadugenga]

What? I just gave you the examples. I'm not going to spend my evening printing it down for you. Who's trolling here? Just go read it.

Okay--calling you trolling was a bit uncharitable, and I apologize for that. It was one of those mornings...

However, your response did nothing to back up your point. So the transubstantiation-like blood angel bit has nothing to do with murdering your allies and bathing in blood.

In fact, nothing you wrote had any reference to it at all. Essentially, what you wrote was that you wanted me to do your research for you, to substantiate your own argument.

Sorry, not gonna happen. If you can't even reference a specific codex--then your argument has no support.


But of course you're a troll, Fellend. You didn't bend over to his every demand and worship his brilliance

This is a more apt example of trolling. But Dark's frequently pissy for unknown reasons, and he's miffed that I won't bow down and recognize his own unequivocal mastery at interpreting the new GK codex, specifically in regards to Nemesis Falchions.

That's okay, Dark. You still end up Chicago way and I'll buy you a prune juice, or whatever you non-alcohol imbibing bodybuilders are espousing these days. :P

[Fellend]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellend View Post
What? I just gave you the examples. I'm not going to spend my evening printing it down for you. Who's trolling here? Just go read it.
Okay--calling you trolling was a bit uncharitable, and I apologize for that. It was one of those mornings...

However, your response did nothing to back up your point. So the transubstantiation-like blood angel bit has nothing to do with murdering your allies and bathing in blood.

In fact, nothing you wrote had any reference to it at all. Essentially, what you wrote was that you wanted me to do your research for you, to substantiate your own argument.

Sorry, not gonna happen. If you can't even reference a specific codex--then your argument has no support.

I do not agree. This proves that there is a foundation for blood magic within the world of wh40k. (well actually, Khorne's existance does that but you wanted Imperial examples)
This together with already established canon (and even more so now with the new codex,) that grey knights will do whatever it takes and kill whoever they need to kill to get their mission done and protect their own secret.

I don't know what else you need?
There might or might not be an exact example of people being slaughted for the good of the Imperium but really, they kill their own all the time. Have you read any of the Guants Ghost novels? They slaughter their own quite freely there. "A guardsmans job is to die. And my job is to send him to a place where he can die."
So my original point still stands.
There's nothing particular strange about this piece of fluff. Is it bad? Yes. Is it breaking established canon? No, Is it changing it a little? Yes probably, but every new codex does that.
The only reason why people are upset and by people I mostly mean people calling Matt Ward a sick demented freak *cough*
Is because this time it happend to be SOB that got slain. If it had been a chapter of space marines slaughted because they needed the untainted gene-seed, no one would flinch, if it had been IG... well who am I kidding, when does IG NOT get slaughtered by everyone?

I'll stand by my point, this is all just because it happend to be SOB. I have seen to evidence to the contrary, infact I have provided you with examples of blood rituals and GK's "evilness"
If you want to continue this argument, please provide me with some evidence to the contrary instead of just saying you are wrong.

(Edit as for official codex. Blood angels, Gaunts Ghost, The blood angel novels, Black Templar homepage (which may or may not still exist somewhere). Look I'm litterally thousands of miles away from my books. I can't reference it for you. If you want to find it. Go ahead, I've made my point, now please show me I'm wrong with providing me of with examples of why this wouldn't work or why this goes against canon)

[scadugenga]

I do not agree. This proves that there is a foundation for blood magic within the world of wh40k. (well actually, Khorne's existance does that but you wanted Imperial examples)
This together with already established canon (and even more so now with the new codex,) that grey knights will do whatever it takes and kill whoever they need to kill to get their mission done and protect their own secret.

I don't know what else you need?
There might or might not be an exact example of people being slaughted for the good of the Imperium but really, they kill their own all the time. Have you read any of the Guants Ghost novels? They slaughter their own quite freely there. "A guardsmans job is to die. And my job is to send him to a place where he can die."
So my original point still stands.
There's nothing particular strange about this piece of fluff. Is it bad? Yes. Is it breaking established canon? No, Is it changing it a little? Yes probably, but every new codex does that.
The only reason why people are upset and by people I mostly mean people calling Matt Ward a sick demented freak *cough*
Is because this time it happend to be SOB that got slain. If it had been a chapter of space marines slaughted because they needed the untainted gene-seed, no one would flinch, if it had been IG... well who am I kidding, when does IG NOT get slaughtered by everyone?

I'll stand by my point, this is all just because it happend to be SOB. I have seen to evidence to the contrary, infact I have provided you with examples of blood rituals and GK's "evilness"
If you want to continue this argument, please provide me with some evidence to the contrary instead of just saying you are wrong.

(Edit as for official codex. Blood angels, Gaunts Ghost, The blood angel novels, Black Templar homepage (which may or may not still exist somewhere). Look I'm litterally thousands of miles away from my books. I can't reference it for you. If you want to find it. Go ahead, I've made my point, now please show me I'm wrong with providing me of with examples of why this wouldn't work or why this goes against canon)

You're still mixing up the arguments. No one doubts the existence of blood rituals, or even self sacrificial tales, which is, I believe, the crux of your argument.

My argument has nothing to do with that. It specifically has to do with the cold blooded murder of allies in order to use their blood for ritualistic purposes. Nowhere does that appear in the Ghosts novels--at least, not perpetuated by the Ghosts...(And yes, I've read them all multiple times.) Again, were talking murder for the sake of blood ritual. IG being thrown into the grinding war of attrition has nothing to do with this. That's a different kind of "sacrifice" and has nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.

Now, using Abnett as a resource again--you *do* see blood rituals being used by supposed good guys (Eisenhorn) when he turns his Chastener buddy into a daemonhost. (Book 3 of the Eisenhorn trilogy) But that's why you have radical inquisitors--they try to use the tools of chaos against itself--and it never seems to turn out well. (Specifically book 2 of the Eisenhorn trilogy, where he goes after a rogue radical inquisitor-who damned himself by using the tools of chaos too often.)

So there's your counterpoint.

There's nothing in your examples to show where you have the good guys murdering other good guys in a blood ritual in order to prevail. There's one example of a supposed good guy (Eisenhorn) who uses a blood/unwilling sacrificial victim. But it's really arguable that Eisenhorn's even one of the "good guys" at that point.

And yes, the Grey Knights using chaotic rituals is breaking canon.

But hey, at least we can agree the writing sucks.

[Fellend]

The gaunts ghost reference was pointing to when the noble dudes (can't remember their name, something bluebloods i think) shoot on guants ghost. Not a blood ritual but it is allies killing each other.

I can also think of the one where the bad guys, have the first rank shoot the second rank, rinse and repeat for the glory of Khorne. Thus = blood sacrifice = power

And isn't Eisenhorn proving my point? He uses blood sacrifice (actually doesn't he sacrifice his friends to stop a titan at somepoint?) There is alot of examples of blood sacrifice giving power in Wh40k, you even provided me with some that I hadn't thought off.

So I can't see this as a counter argument, you are infact proving my point. They are using blood sacrifice, Is it possible that it's an evil (or lets use radical, it's a more fitting word) method? Yes probably, but lets face it, they are knights in shining armor anymore, they are radical, do whatever it takes to win sort of people. They even co-operate with daemonhosts, daemonweapons and xeno now adays.

I don't think it's breaking canon and this is of course my point of view, It might be because I wasn't really a big fan of GK and never invested alot of time in reading their fluff but to me it seems like they just have gone from being magically protected from everything because they have the Emperor's geneseed to using whatever dirty methods they can to stay pure.

[scadugenga]

The gaunts ghost reference was pointing to when the noble dudes (can't remember their name, something bluebloods i think) shoot on guants ghost. Not a blood ritual but it is allies killing each other.

I can also think of the one where the bad guys, have the first rank shoot the second rank, rinse and repeat for the glory of Khorne. Thus = blood sacrifice = power

And isn't Eisenhorn proving my point? He uses blood sacrifice (actually doesn't he sacrifice his friends to stop a titan at somepoint?) There is alot of examples of blood sacrifice giving power in Wh40k, you even provided me with some that I hadn't thought off.

So I can't see this as a counter argument, you are infact proving my point. They are using blood sacrifice, Is it possible that it's an evil (or lets use radical, it's a more fitting word) method? Yes probably, but lets face it, they are knights in shining armor anymore, they are radical, do whatever it takes to win sort of people. They even co-operate with daemonhosts, daemonweapons and xeno now adays.

I don't think it's breaking canon and this is of course my point of view, It might be because I wasn't really a big fan of GK and never invested alot of time in reading their fluff but to me it seems like they just have gone from being magically protected from everything because they have the Emperor's geneseed to using whatever dirty methods they can to stay pure.

Your first Ghosts reference has nothing to do with the subject matter at hand. That's just a jackhole being a jackhole...it's a common theme across all genres/spectrums.

The Second Ghosts reference is actually the chaos worshiping enemies doing that. So it's completely irrelevant as well. Bad guys doing evil has nothing to do with good guys (GK's) doing evil.

Eisenhorn isn't necessarily a good guy. He's just the narrator of the story. I thought I established that already. And no one said the Inquisition isn't incorruptible. I think it's been well established that corruption and taint is widespread through the Inquisition. That's what happens when you have almost limitless authority and power without any real oversight/authority to answer to.

If you think I was proving your point, you're mistaken.

So if you have no interest in the GK, and have no real knowledge of their fluff--why are you trying to argue so vehemently in favor of Ward's lackluster writing?

[Fellend]

Mostly because I dislike people throwing insane comments at Matt Ward especially when there's no more content to them than, I don't like that he is messing with my favorite army, there for he must be the spawn of the devil.

But you are agreeing to the Inquisition (Eisenhorn) is using blood sacrifice for power? Yes?
So can we then agree to there being power in blood sacrifice?
If so, assume that we have the power to remain uncorrupted after having used said blood sacrifice yet gain the benefits of it why wouldn't we use it? Sort of like say, using xeno weaponry and remaining uncorrupted?

There is absolutely no reason as to why they wouldn't do this. They kill everyone all the time. They were going to kill the sisters either way. And as established, in the known canon, blood sacrifice gives you power, even if it is a radical way to achieve said power, untill you get corrupted it's all good. Much like all other uses for the warp and sorcery.


(and as for the gaunt part. Those two examples, seperately prove what I've been trying to say. One there is power in blood sacrifice, (how many times do I have to say this) and two, Imperial factions slaughter each other all the time for no other reason than they dislike each other)

[chromedog]

Well, Eisenhorn HAD to get the body ready for possession by daemonhost - and it's not like Chastener Fischig was going to survive anyway. Ends and means, raison d'etre of the Inquisition. Not so much a sacrifice to defeat the titan. A sacrifice to enable the pet daemonhost to do it.

ALL inquisitors fall, it's just a matter of when. Eisenhorn was just a very good example of how a 'wrong' step here and there, even if you are doing 'the right thing' can still damn you.

[GrenAcid]

So I can't see this as a counter argument, you are infact proving my point. They are using blood sacrifice, Is it possible that it's an evil (or lets use radical, it's a more fitting word) method? Yes probably, but lets face it, they are knights in shining armor anymore, they are radical, do whatever it takes to win sort of people. They even co-operate with daemonhosts, daemonweapons and xeno now adays.


Since when GK are RADICAL??..... if you dig a bit you will find they couldnt be taken with RADICAL inquisitor in last dex.

Blood sacrifice gives power thats a fact, but GK should put on them oils of some sort "made" of Sororitas great hero or somthin...not preform Khorn bloodbath session...GK are purest of pure and they are supose to keep things in sacred maner.

[DarkLink]

Crowe carries around a Daemon Weapon. All GKs learn the secrets of sorcery. They do anything and everything necessary to defeat their foes. Sound pretty radical to me.

[Fellend]

Since when GK are RADICAL??..... if you dig a bit you will find they couldnt be taken with RADICAL inquisitor in last dex.

Blood sacrifice gives power thats a fact, but GK should put on them oils of some sort "made" of Sororitas great hero or somthin...not preform Khorn bloodbath session...GK are purest of pure and they are supose to keep things in sacred maner.

Since this codex apparantly. Lets face it we didn't know much about them or their ways untill the current dex, and now they've certainly changed from being the purest of the pure to using whatever means neccessary.
Yes last dex they couldn't co-operate, now they co-operate with everyone and anything, as long as they can kill it afterwards or it's monkey enough to not ask questions

[Denzark]

Exactly.
I mean compared to marines sisters are cannon fodder. Better to use them as grind down deamon proof paste then just kill them like any other "witness".

What is so strange about that?

Stand by for tactical nuclear Melissia...

[Hive Mind]

Modrak's ghosts? They got fusion bombed. Huron nuked the site from orbit. No warp involved. A mundane, if sad, pathetic way for our heroes to get snuffed. The very fluff of the whole 40k universe clearly states that human psyche (soul) don't have the "oomph" to maintain coherency post death. They dissolve back into the warp.


Grey Knights, along with other Marines, aren't really human are they?



SoB are all of a sudden so incorruptible their blood is special
GK are suddenly so corruptible so they need that blood.

You might have had a point if the Knights had simply cut the Sister's throats and bathed in the blood but since it goes on about the ritualistic nature (blessed oils?) it's clear that the blood is just one ingredient in the stew.

You're interpreting it the way you have because frankly you have to. You have no point if you don't constantly use fallacious, almost syllogistic, 'logic' to misinterpret what has actually been said.


Im glad someone brought up another Matt Ward screw up. Namely how if the Emporer was so opposed to sorcery and branded one of his sons for it, why do we now read (pointing finger at Ward here) that the whole GK chapter are built on the back of it, use it, allow it, and frequently live amongst such rituals that if any other person in the Imperiuem used would be branded heretic, burnt and named traitorforever??


How many times in the fluff is it mentioned that there is a duality (some would say hypocrisy) at the heart of the Imperium? How many times is it remarked upon that those whom the Imperium persecutes and seeks to eliminate are the very same that the Imperium relies on utterly? Astropaths, Navigators, the psychic souls 'fed' to the Golden Throne? 90% of the Witch Hunters fluff bangs on and on about it.

How long have Marine chapters had Librarians? I initially started playing in 3rd Ed., they had them then.

[scadugenga]

Grey Knights, along with other Marines, aren't really human are they?

Yes, they are still human. If just genetically advanced humans.

If the Navis Nobilitae, the most powerful psykers in humanity don't have the oomph, neither do GK's.

[Hive Mind]

Yes, they are still human. If just genetically advanced humans.

If the Navis Nobilitae, the most powerful psykers in humanity don't have the oomph, neither do GK's.

Right. Eight foot tall, genetically-engineered humans with super-strength, two hearts and a liver/kidney combo not seen since Oliver Reed. You see them all the time down my way.

I regret even posting in this thread. The sheer ridiculousness of people arguing about whether the backstory for their plastic army really makes sense is mind-boggling.

[scadugenga]

Right. Eight foot tall, genetically-engineered humans with super-strength, two hearts and a liver/kidney combo not seen since Oliver Reed. You see them all the time down my way.

I regret even posting in this thread. The sheer ridiculousness of people arguing about whether the backstory for their plastic army really makes sense is mind-boggling.

And yet you jumped right in.

Looks good on you, though.

[Hive Mind]

And yet you jumped right in.

Looks good on you, though.

Indeed. I'll probably never live this down. Ever.

Oh well. To err is human.

[DarkLink]

If the Navis Nobilitae, the most powerful psykers in humanity don't have the oomph, neither do GK's.

Considering how much more absurdly selective the GK training is, and the level of psychic power and mental fortitude required, I would debate this statement. And since, y'know, GW itself said it happened.

[scadugenga]

Considering how much more absurdly selective the GK training is, and the level of psychic power and mental fortitude required, I would debate this statement. And since, y'know, GW itself said it happened.

That's right.

I forgot about the 1 million aspirants for every one accepted tripe.


Really, the book would've been just fine with rules only and none of the fluff. It would be almost Phil Kelly perfect in that regard.

Except Phil would've made a concerted effort to clearly state if the falchions provide just +1 attack, or the +2 that you believe. :rolleyes:

[eldargal]

As much as you GK fans desperate attempts to rationalise this amuse me, you are missing he key point. The GK use the blood of uncorrupted Sisters to avoid being corrupted themelves. So for all their rituals, geneseed etcetera they are worried about resisting a corruption that a bunch of regular SoB resisted. It is not the act of killing that is the issue, it is the fact that a bunch of SoB were able to resist corruption so abolutely that the GK felt they needed to use their pure blood in a ritual to protect themselves. What ritual did the SoB have? The SoB weren't built to withstand Chaotic taint, the SoB don't have the Emperor's own geneseed, the Sob don't have 666 rituals and advanced training all aimed at fighting off Chaos. Nope they are just a bunch of regular, albeit fanatical women who resisted the Bloodtide better than the Grey Knights believed they could.

I love being told I have no point by someone who has comprehensively failed to grasp th argument.:rolleyes:



You might have had a point if the Knights had simply cut the Sister's throats and bathed in the blood but since it goes on about the ritualistic nature (blessed oils?) it's clear that the blood is just one ingredient in the stew.

You're interpreting it the way you have because frankly you have to. You have no point if you don't constantly use fallacious, almost syllogistic, 'logic' to misinterpret what has actually been said.

[Hive Mind]

Right, yeah. I'm a Knights fan because you're wrong. Makes sense. Especially coming from someone who's cried about being accused of army favouritism. As it happens, I have a SoB army and I don't have a Knights army. Nor will I ever because, IMO, the Knights miniatures suck major balls (especially the dreadknight) and cool models is why I collect.

You can change your tune as much as you like my love, you still don't have a point.

[eldargal]

Nice rebuttal, I'm sure to be convinced by that.:rolleyes:

I don't even have an SoB army, and I have no problem with SoB being martyred, thats their job. If you lot could see past the SoB for a moment you might see absurd it is. We have the SoB resisting a chaotic taint so effectively that their blood is so pure as to be weapon for the GK. The GK need that blood to resist the taint themselves. But the GK are quite literally created to resist Chaos, while the SoB are just a bunch of women. So for all their rituals, training, geneseed etcetera it is posible for regular women to resist the taint more effectively than the Grey Knights. That is what you are justifying here, not the murder of a few SoB which is neither here nor there.

[Hive Mind]

Nice rebuttal, I'm sure to be convinced by that.:rolleyes:

I don't even have an SoB army, and I have no problem with SoB being martyred, thats their job. If you lot could see past the SoB for a moment you might see absurd it is. We have the SoB resisting a chaotic taint so effectively that their blood is so pure as to be weapon for the GK. The GK need that blood to resist the taint themselves. But the GK are quite literally created to resist Chaos, while the SoB are just a bunch of women. So for all their rituals, training, geneseed etcetera it is posible for regular women to resist the taint more effectively than the Grey Knights. That is what you are justifying here, not the murder of a few SoB which is neither here nor there.

Again you miss the point. quite intentionally I'm sure. They used the blood so that they could cross the river, not fart around on the banks like the Sisters had been doing.

You keep equating the Knights' actions to the Sisters', as if they did exactly the same thing but the Knights needed 'extra' protection that the Sisters didn't. That's not what happens. Not at all.

[Duke]

My thoughts:

In the Imperium there is this really crazy thing going on where people do things just because they think it will do something. They go through rituals to turn a car on, first applying the proper oils and scents and allowing the machine spirit to be pleased. We know that the prayers and the sacred oil has nothing to do with the car actually turning on, and that cars doin't have spirits... But this is the way things are done within the Imperium.

The Grey Knights are similar, they have their rituals and stupid actions that they do just because they think it will give them some protection or abilities in battle. For example, there is a short story about GK where they take an innocent man and slit his throat so that the blood of the innocent may drip into the container below him. In that container sits one Bolter round... When the man escapes and says he is innocent they simply reply "we know," Thats right for every bolter round shot a knowingly innocent person is killed jus so his blood will bless their bolter shell. To bless their armor they sacrifice a thousand psykers... You get the idea.

When the river of blood is coming they didn't think "Wow these sisters are more pure than us, lets have THEM bless us." They thought "Apparently innocent blood protects, sisters are really innocent... lets kill them and bless our armor with it, just in case."

In the end it may not have even done anything to their armor, they could have lived based on their faith alone... But we will never know, they felt it wise to kill the sisters just in case.

Duke

[Fellend]

As much as you GK fans desperate attempts to rationalise this amuse me, you are missing he key point. The GK use the blood of uncorrupted Sisters to avoid being corrupted themelves. So for all their rituals, geneseed etcetera they are worried about resisting a corruption that a bunch of regular SoB resisted. It is not the act of killing that is the issue, it is the fact that a bunch of SoB were able to resist corruption so abolutely that the GK felt they needed to use their pure blood in a ritual to protect themselves. What ritual did the SoB have? The SoB weren't built to withstand Chaotic taint, the SoB don't have the Emperor's own geneseed, the Sob don't have 666 rituals and advanced training all aimed at fighting off Chaos. Nope they are just a bunch of regular, albeit fanatical women who resisted the Bloodtide better than the Grey Knights believed they could.

I love being told I have no point by someone who has comprehensively failed to grasp th argument.:rolleyes:

Well, to be fair, the SOB is the only ones who's faith makes them shoot magical bullets, eat lascannons and walk away from it (I guess Black Templars can do that too) and get superstrength from it.
Maybe it's this magical faith power that they wanted?
As I said before, the strange thing in this fluff isn't GK being radical mofo's it's why the sisters are magically able to resist things which all the technology, training and faith in the world doesn't protect you from.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

What was written was a pathetic reasoning to make the GK's sound even cooler than they are supposed to be.
Why did they need the blood if they are so uncorruptable?
Why did'nt they just follow there usual method of attack and use teleporters straight infront of the greater daemon?
Why did they risk corruption using blood sorcery with a Khorne blood ritual?
Why did they need to kill the SoB, instead of asking for a pint or two?
Why did they think they would need to kill them afterwards when they are some of the holiest warriors in the Imperiuem, possibly matching themselves?

See these questions are asked, and it has nothing to do with that i play SoB, even if i didn't i would say the fluff in this matter was seriously poor.
As for Hive Mind, why did they even need to cross the river, when they can fly over it. It was just a poorly written excuse for matt ward that's all.

[Fellend]

What was written was a pathetic reasoning to make the GK's sound even cooler than they are supposed to be.
Why did they need the blood if they are so uncorruptable?
Why did'nt they just follow there usual method of attack and use teleporters straight infront of the greater daemon?
Why did they risk corruption using blood sorcery with a Khorne blood ritual?
Why did they need to kill the SoB, instead of asking for a pint or two?
Why did they think they would need to kill them afterwards when they are some of the holiest warriors in the Imperiuem, possibly matching themselves?

See these questions are asked, and it has nothing to do with that i play SoB, even if i didn't i would say the fluff in this matter was seriously poor.
As for Hive Mind, why did they even need to cross the river, when they can fly over it. It was just a poorly written excuse for matt ward that's all.

Almost all of this has already been talked about an answered. The main reason for any of this is simple:
It's a piece of fluff designed to show the difference between the "old" GK and the "new" GK. Basically, they are now bad *** radicals instead of purer than a virigin riding a unicorn through untouched snow.

But to answer it AGAIN. in short.


Why did they need the blood if they are so uncorruptable? Extra protection, they aren't completely uncorruptable, just nearly, and they are it because they use protection.


Why did'nt they just follow there usual method of attack and use teleporters straight infront of the greater daemon? This is the one thing I can agree with. I have to assume that there was some sort of reason as to why they had to walk there. Maybe they've recently watched Ultramarines or maybe they simple couldn't teleport safetly because of the warp was to thin/strong or whatever.


Why did they risk corruption using blood sorcery with a Khorne blood ritual? See previous. They are strong enough to fight back a little blood ritual, maybe not so against the blood tide. Plus they mixed it with sacred oils, I'll go ahead and assume that it counter acts the Khornishness of it.


Why did they need to kill the SoB, instead of asking for a pint or two? They were going to kill them anyway. And a pint or two might not have cut it. Plus really? "Hey! you! Super pure flamer loving heretic cleansing power armor nun, can we borrow some of your blood to perform radical sorcery? I swear it's not at all heritical! We are they good guys, what do you mean you've never heard of us? What do you mean why do we show up in the middle of a daemon infested planet to perform radical sorcery!? Why are you pointing your flamer at me?"



Why did they think they would need to kill them afterwards when they are some of the holiest warriors in the Imperiuem, possibly matching themselves?And this is nothing more than army fandom. They kill EVERYONE (making small excuses for mindscrubbing adeptus astartes, and that's just because there are so few of them, a couple of SOB? there's millions of those...at least lots more than SMs)
They killed millions of IG, why aren't you complaining? They killed planets. Why aren't you complaining? They killed SM and mindscrubbed the ones they didn't think was heritical. Why aren't you complaining!? This is all just because it happends to be SOB.

And the reason it's SOB I'm guessing is purely thematical. To fit into the original theme of look how badass and radical the new GK are, they are even killing the purest of the pure to finish their mission, hear them roar! RAWR

...Wall of text. But I've been over this, like 20 times now. And all the opposite side ever say is. WHA! MY SOB DIED. But it's my own fault for arguing on the internet... I should enter the special olympics

[eldargal]

I know, right? Its almost like the Grey Knights need some kind of mid-size transport, larger than a Land Speeder but smaller than a Thunderhawk. Something they could use to transport troops and dreadnoughts over pesky rivers of blood if it was just as simple as avoiding physical contact sparing you from chaotic taint. But that would just be wishlisting I guess.:rolleyes:


Pyriel, if all it took to 'own' me was to make stuff up and ignore what the fluff actually says it would happen more often. For example the piece of fluff says that 'some sisters' were corrupted by contact with the bloodtide. Not all, but some. They had contact with it, explicitly stated, yet Hive Mind has them 'farting around' on the bank. Then we have the real gem:

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act..., (italics mine)
Well, would you look at that, the GK NEED a talisman of pure SoB blood to protect them from the taint some sisters survived while remaining pure enough to provide said talisman of purity. Not wanting, not desiring, not thinking maybe lets play it safe and get on, but needing.

So, who owned who again?


Fellend, you have a point, if all it takes to resist Chaotic taint to the extent that GK need your bodily fluids to protect themselves, why aren't the Imperium giving the GK more of th kind of indoctrination the SoB get? Or why aren't there vast ships transporting SoB to Titan o GK can harvest their blood and make the pure blood cocktail standard issue, a la Black Ships?

[Wishing]

Haven't read the fluff piece myself, but it sounds like appropriate stuff that makes the 40k world as grimdark as it is. I can understand if people that really like battle sisters might feel some aversion to reading about a group of them being butchered by their own side for no reason, but since it achieves a result of showing how inter-imperium fighting can be entirely fluff-justified and that the setting is over-the-top dark, which it is supposed to be as I see it, nothing in this scenario in principle qualifies it as "bad writing" as was originally stated.

Since this thread is very long and I only read the first page, several people have probably said this already though!

[Fellend]

Fellend, you have a point, if all it takes to resist Chaotic taint to the extent that GK need your bodily fluids to protect themselves, why aren't the Imperium giving the GK more of th kind of indoctrination the SoB get? Or why aren't there vast ships transporting SoB to Titan o GK can harvest their blood and make the pure blood cocktail standard issue, a la Black Ships?

Thank you, this is what I've been saying. The GK acting like everyone else and worshipping every tree and rock possible in hope that it'll defend themselves against Chaos is completely normal in this world.
The SOB being magically faith protected is not.
Personally I recommend issuing SOB blood bullets to slay daemons and start sending them all to the inquisition for that use untill they get a new codex so they also can be uber against everyone and everything!


Haven't read the fluff piece myself, but it sounds like appropriate stuff that makes the 40k world as grimdark as it is. I can understand if people that really like battle sisters might feel some aversion to reading about a group of them being butchered by their own side for no reason, but since it achieves a result of showing how inter-imperium fighting can be entirely fluff-justified and that the setting is over-the-top dark, which it is supposed to be as I see it, nothing in this scenario in principle qualifies it as "bad writing" as was originally stated.

Since this thread is very long and I only read the first page, several people have probably said this already though!

Agreed. Still think it's poorly written, mostly because it lacks subtlety

[Duke]

25 pages in enough... Thread closed.

Duke