1750 Daemons

[faeg nad teli]

Hi all, I'm currently building my first 40k army (after years of playing fantasy) and I'd like to hear your opinions about it. I'll mainly use it at my LGS but I'll also have some tournament fun when I get the hang of the army.

I started playing as part of a tale of X-gamers campaign so I currently have the following 1000pts painted as a basis: Bloodthirster, 2x 3 flamers, 2x10 bloodletters, 5 plague bearers, daemonprince of tzeentch.

I currently think of expanding it to the following:

HQ:
Bloodthirster + blessings, unholy might
Herald + juggernaut, blessings, unholy might
Skulltaker + juggernaut

Elite:
4 Flamers
3 Flamers
4 BLoodcrushers + Fury, Instrument, Icon

Troop:
10 BLoodletters + Icon
10 BLoodletters
5 Plague bearers

Heavy support:
Daemon prince + Tzeentch, Bolt
Daemon prince + Tzeentch, Bolt, Iron hide

I made it a nice even 1750 pts, but the 4th flamer is perhaps a surplus. I could also see dropping a unit of flamers in favor of another daemon prince with bolt to bust more tanks, or perhaps some fiends.
But I take any suggestions

[blackarmchair]

Welcome to 40k! Not a bad start sir.

Your HQs look good, I would consider taking those heralds on Chariots but the Juggernaut works. Out of curiosity do you plan on running both heralds with the same unit of bloodcrushers? Because that would be overkill lol.

Elites look okay too. Be aware (in case you already are not) that flamers are largely suicidal and given the dominance of mech they can often be ineffective because your enemy will often hide his troops in vehicles from your flamer alpha strike. If this is the case, don't include them in your first wave. Bloodcrushers look nice, be sure to up their squad size in larger games.

I am torn on Daemon troops. Bloodletters and Daemonettes really are great anti-infantry troops, the problem is getting them where they need to be. What I have found is that one of two routes are the best to take:

1) Take 6 5-man Bloodletter squads. A 5-man squad can still do a number of marines, they strike at I5 (before most marines) and have 3 attacks a pop. You're looking at about 6 dead marines before they even start swinging back. And if anything goes wrong with the squad, it's okay because it's a cheap 5-man unit.

2) Take only Plaguebearers. This is the route I see most taking, you take only a few plaguebearer squads and save them to DS in later on objectives. This saves you points you can put into more of Daemon's harder hitting units in other slots.

Taking 10+ squads of daemonettes/bloodletters is really a bad idea. Anyone who has played against daemons before knows EXACTLY what they can do and will shoot the poop out of them at the first available convenience and a 5+ save won't help much...

Bolt princes are....underwhelming. Take it from a Space Wolf player who runs 15 rockets, 2 str8 weapons is NOT enough. You will primarily destroy tanks in close combat as a daemon player - sad truth. If I were you I would cram in as many Soul Grinders as possible, at least 2 preferably 3. These guys can shoot tanks a little better (str10 with tounge) and can fight at str10 as well and they do it for very cheap.

Overall, daemons are a tough army to learn and play. I give you props for choosing them as a first army. You'll most likely take some lumps but after you figure them out (as well as the game in general) you should do well. Daemons are very underrated and will often force opponents to play differently which can really mess up their strategy.

Good luck!

[eagleboy7259]

You're on the right path for sure. With demons it's often hard to tell how to put together a "good list" because everything in the book is useable for the most part.

Demon Princes are incredibly underwhelming as far as monstrous creatures go. Their stat line is okay, but they are neither incredibly strong nor resilent and they get real expsenive real quick - so much so that they can easily outprice a greater demon if you let them. I run my own demon prince with Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt, and Gaze for 160pts. Since most anti-tank weapons also go straight through power armor you're better off saving points and not buying Iron Hide.

Personally I've always been a Soul Grinder guy. There aren't many high strength weapons in the demons book outside of a couple bolts and a monstrous creature on the charge. Even S6-7 +2D6 isn't a guantee to pop a tank. That's why Bloodthirsters are so dang popular. Soul Grinder gives you S10 so you at least glance most things since assault is worked on the back armor, they're faster than you're walking demon princes, and for the same cost can have a much better shooting attack. The one draw back is that they are incredibly fragile compared to the demon prince, but at least they can't be torrented to death by basic troops.

Demon Troops are pretty difficult to get right. The easy answer is just bring all plaguebearers - they are incedibly resilent while sitting in cover and are damn good at claiming objectives. However, thats about the only thing they do well. If they get charged by just about any unit thats decent in assault they will die due to fearless. Horrors are one of the only ways to get anti-tank into your army. 2 boxes will net you four squads which you min-max to get as many Bolts as possible. Always buy the Changling if you take Horrors, he rarely goes off but when he does its always worthwhile.

Don't buy the bad rep that flamers get. Their very presence in your list will either get your enemy to hide his anti-tank troops off the board or in a transport buying you at least 1-2 turns of saftey from the big guns. That or he could be a big dumby and deploy those for you to alpha strike and kill. Sure every game won't be Long Fangs or Lootas, but Flamers always find a target - monstrous creatures, hordes, etc. Even vs Mech just put them in round two. If you can't kill a single tank in a turn or two of shooting then your Flamers not having targets are probably the least of your worries.

Lately I've been playtesting small squads of Bloodletters and small squads of Flesh Hounds trying to figure out which I prefer. I mean on one hand the Bloodletters are scoring but usually neither unit ever makes it through the game. At least with the Blood Hounds they're fast enough to make their way into assault instead of just getting shot to death and not doing anything.


As far as the direction that you are going in with this list - Bloodcrusher are probably a solid purchase. They are one of the best elites units in the enitire game although you either need to deep strike them aggresively or have an icon in order to get them into assault. Instead of Khrone Heralds it would be worthwhile to get some more anti-tank into this army, either through another Greater Demon or a pair of Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots.

[faeg nad teli]

Thanks for the extensive replies.

Having more than a couple of years playing wood elves and empire over three fantasy editions I feel save to say that I prefer a challenging army to play.

Now on to the list itself:
In the few 1000 pts battle's I played I already noticed a lack of anti-tank when I really only had a bloodthirster and the bolt prince. The prince would indeed couldn't bust any vehicle, especially where it mattered (bless Murphy's law). As to that point, I consciously omitted tzeentch heralds since they would at least become as expensive as the princes and hit even less. I have a similar feeling towards horrors and putting bolts in their units, moreover you would only use one model in the unit. The rest are extra wounds, especially since anything they can kill shooting, I can kill quicker while in assault.
Basically I just aim to get up close and personal. However, to do that, busting open boxes has to be done to get at the good the stuff inside and there are just not enough turns to deepstrike, assault a transport, then it's troops and only then another transport...
I will reevaluate the soulgrinders, they're also not that fragile, especially with a bloodthirster claiming some anti-tank weaponry attention while he's coming your way. If I drop the heralds for a second big one, would you take a keeper of secrets or preferably stick to the heralds?

I have also considered adding fiends instead of one unit of flamers, since these can also open up those transports. In what unit size would you consider them to do this?
Sadly I haven't found the right models to really start looking into their rules. I actually first only chose the bloodthirster because I loved the forgeworld daemonprince of khorne, luckily that buy didn't turn out to be a bad choice. But I'll not play with models I don't like, no matter how good they are on the tabletop.
On a second side note I might add some screamers, even though they don't seem to be that good. What's more fun than bomb squigs with wings?

With regards to the troops I find it an interesting suggestion. I never considered 5 man bloodletter squads, I will sure have to test this out. Do you then always keep two of the units close together to still pack enough punch should one or both lose some models to shooting?
I wanted an icon in each wave for my CC units and flamers to align on and land closer to the front lines if needed. I presume you would move the second icon to the herald of Khorne although any unit he's in will for sure attract attention. Perhaps a chariot would then be the better choice?
He and Skulltaker were initially going to split between the crushers and letters, but there's nothing really rigid about their deployment, it's more enhancement where needed. Perhaps skulltaker with the crushers and the herald with an Icon on a chariot?

Flamers have up until now always been amazing and are a threat that need to be dealt with by your opponent. The only battle in which they were slightly lackluster was versus a thunderwolf list filled with storm shields.

Well that's surely enough text for now, thanks once more for all comments

[blackarmchair]

Thanks for the extensive replies.

Having more than a couple of years playing wood elves and empire over three fantasy editions I feel save to say that I prefer a challenging army to play.

Now on to the list itself:
In the few 1000 pts battle's I played I already noticed a lack of anti-tank when I really only had a bloodthirster and the bolt prince. The prince would indeed couldn't bust any vehicle, especially where it mattered (bless Murphy's law). As to that point, I consciously omitted tzeentch heralds since they would at least become as expensive as the princes and hit even less. I have a similar feeling towards horrors and putting bolts in their units, moreover you would only use one model in the unit. The rest are extra wounds, especially since anything they can kill shooting, I can kill quicker while in assault.

You couldn't be more right. Some people swear by bolts and horrors, I just don't see it Str8 is not all its KRAK'ed up to be (ba-dum chss) you really need to spam it to make it work and Daemons just don't do that. Tzeentch Heralds suffer in the same way. The way you're really going to handle armour is with Flesh Hounds, Fiends and Monstrous Creatures.

Basically I just aim to get up close and personal. However, to do that, busting open boxes has to be done to get at the good the stuff inside and there are just not enough turns to deepstrike, assault a transport, then it's troops and only then another transport...
I will reevaluate the soulgrinders, they're also not that fragile, especially with a bloodthirster claiming some anti-tank weaponry attention while he's coming your way. If I drop the heralds for a second big one, would you take a keeper of secrets or preferably stick to the heralds?

Soul Grinders will attract enemy attention because they're vehicles and your opponent will feel more confident killing them. The idea is that he can only shoot so many things and you want to give him too many targets. Soul Grinders are nasty because they cannot be stun-locked due to daemonic possession so they either die or they mess some people up the next turn.
I would take the keeper. Heralds aren't bad, but they're an all or nothing thing. If you take 4x Heralds on Chariots they become mini-greater daemons for very cheap. But 1-2 of them are just red herrings. The Keeper is an EXCELLENT value for your points as well so I would take him. Just be sure to give him soporific musk.

I have also considered adding fiends instead of one unit of flamers, since these can also open up those transports. In what unit size would you consider them to do this?
Sadly I haven't found the right models to really start looking into their rules. I actually first only chose the bloodthirster because I loved the forgeworld daemonprince of khorne, luckily that buy didn't turn out to be a bad choice. But I'll not play with models I don't like, no matter how good they are on the tabletop.
On a second side note I might add some screamers, even though they don't seem to be that good. What's more fun than bomb squigs with wings?

Yeah the Fiend models are awful...just awful. I know there are some fantasy spider things people like to attach daemonette torsos to and use as fiends. As a WHFB player you might know more about what model that is (I'm purely 40k). Fiends are gross though, they rend, they're S5 and have 5 attacks standing still at I6 for 30 points they're ridiculous. I highly recommend them.
I actually like screamers. They open the door to some shenanigans. First and most obviously, they've got meltabombs so they can break tanks. There's a lot more good they can do though, they do have a 4+ invlun so they're decent at tarpiting things like Thundershield Terminators which have low numbers of attacks but that you'd otherwise have some issues with. On top of that, they can turbo boost for a 3+ cover save; this means that you can turbo-boost in front of your own troops to provide cover to them while still claiming a 3+ cover for yourself. This is an awesome ability.

With regards to the troops I find it an interesting suggestion. I never considered 5 man bloodletter squads, I will sure have to test this out. Do you then always keep two of the units close together to still pack enough punch should one or both lose some models to shooting?

Yeah, keeping them together is a good idea but you don't have to. The whole idea is again target saturation, in general - your opponent really doesn't want to fight the bloodletters in close combat. By splitting them into so many small squads he can't effectively shoot them all. If you had two 15-man squads instead it would be easy for him to just send one dreadnought after them and call them out of the game. If you have 6 squads of 5 you can afford to lose a few and not really care. As long as a few of them get into close-combat they're worth it. And as I mentioned before a 5-man bloodletter squad will still put a MEQ squad into a world of pain (statistically 6-7 kills at I5).

I wanted an icon in each wave for my CC units and flamers to align on and land closer to the front lines if needed. I presume you would move the second icon to the herald of Khorne although any unit he's in will for sure attract attention. Perhaps a chariot would then be the better choice?
He and Skulltaker were initially going to split between the crushers and letters, but there's nothing really rigid about their deployment, it's more enhancement where needed. Perhaps skulltaker with the crushers and the herald with an Icon on a chariot?

I actually would never take an icon. It sounds crazy but with daemons you're already playing a random army and icons take away all the tactical advantage of your randomness. Icons telegraph to your opponent where you're most likely to deep strike and are usually VERY expensive. A standard icon goes for 25points if memory serves. With daemons you just gotta set your models about a foot (give or take) from your opponent's lines and hope for the best. You're already gambling with reserves rolls and fleet rolls throughout the army; you just gotta accept that daemons are random and try to use it to your advantage. Remember, you're worried that your units will scatter without an icon, your opponent is JUST as scared that they will land right on target and be a huge pain in the ***. Long story short: be aggressive, use cover, go for turn 2 assaults.


Flamers have up until now always been amazing and are a threat that need to be dealt with by your opponent. The only battle in which they were slightly lackluster was versus a thunderwolf list filled with storm shields.

Flamers are not bad. Perhaps I gave the wrong impression earlier. Flamers have a very high potential for damage and can be a very effective psychological tool. I believe someone said previously that people will often reserve their devastators and whatnot, this is true. My point is that Flamers are largely sacrificial and they cost too much to be used that way. If I were to run flamers at all, I would put them in second wave and deep strike them somewhere more safe. Then use them to hop around (as they ARE jump infantry) and flame throughout the game.

Well that's surely enough text for now, thanks once more for all comments

Overall, I think you're on the right track. As you move up in points levels you'll notice that armour saturation will become a problem that only fiends and flesh hounds can tackle reliably. I know how annoying it is when mech guard players stick to Detroit rules (Never get out of your car).
Don't worry too much about casualties early game. You can outfight just about any other army in this game with relatively few daemon troops. You just need to focus on destroying tanks and making your opponent play the foot game with you.

Much luck to you sir!