GK Force Weapon Shennanigans

[DarkLink]

So, imagine a unit of Grey Knights assaults/is assaulted by a unit of Thunder Wolf Cavalry with a Wolf Lord. The Lord has a Wolf Tail Talisman (dispels psychic powers that target him on a 5+). The Grey Knights pass their psychic test to 'activate' their force weapons.

Does the Wolf Lord get to try and dispel the power if he takes a wound?



Now, under the Brotherhood of Psykers, Grey Knight unit's force weapons work a little differently. The Grey Knights pass the test, and their weapons now inflict Instant Death. At no point, as far as I can tell, is the Wolf Lord actually targeted by the psychic power. The power just affects the Grey Knights. The Wolf Lord is hit by an attack that causes Instant Death, but that attack itself is not a psychic power.

As I see it, the Wolf Lord is screwed.


Here's another way of looking at it. Would a Wolf Lord get to dispel the Hammerhand Psychic power? Hammerhand targets the Grey Knights, and makes their attacks Str 5. The Wolf Lord takes a Str 5 hit, but is not actually targeted by a psychic power, so he gets no dispel. Now just replace "Str 5" with "Instant Death", and you have the force weapon activation.


Edit: Oh, and a second thing, just for confirmation.

A Grand Master is attached to another unit of Grey Knights. The GKs cast hammerhand, giving their unit +1 str. Because the Grand Master is part of the unit, he also benefits, gaining +1 str. While you allocate attacks as if the GM was a separate unit, the GM is still part of the unit of GKs for all other purposes. Since Hammerhand/Force Weapon activation isn't part of the attack allocation, you still treat the GM as part of the unit, so he still benefits.

Now, the GM does not have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. That means that when he activates his Force Weapon, he does it normally (wait till after saves are made, then pick one unsaved wound and pass a psychic test to make it inflict Instant Death). However, if the unit of GKs activate their Force Weapons, the GM is included in the effect and all his attacks inflict Instant Death.

So, use the squad to activate Force Weapons (brotherhood banner anyone?), and use the GM to cast Hammerhand.

[Nungunz]

Sounds right to me. Both with Brotherhood of Psykers and Hammerhand, the wolf lord is never the target. Seems like the Brotherhood of Psykers one might be FAQ'd at some point.....but right now I see no fault in your logic.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Sounds like quite the..."Killer" combo. And i don't see anything wrong in your logic. The psyker powers are not targeting the wolf lord Therefor he can not make a Wolf tail talisman save against it, still gets a SS save though. and can still be dispelled by a rune priest(on a 4+) within 24" (on a 3+ with Njal).

[armbarred]

Except that because the Grand-Master is an IC, he must activate his Nemesis Froce Weapon on his own. He does not benefit from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule at all. It explicitly states this in the codex (can't quote as I am at work and not near the codex).

But I would say the Talisman could be used to nullify the ID property of any wounds allocated to the Lord. Just wouldn't be able to turn off the whole unit.

But, things get really weird when you attach an IC without the Brotherhood rule to a unit with the Banner...

[Tynskel]

no, the power is not directed at the Wolf Lord. Gotta use a 'psychic hood' or in this case, a runic weapon to stop these powers.

Just as a Blood Angel's Librarian using Sanguine Sword does not get negated by the Wolf Lord, because the power wasn't targeting the Wolf Lord.

[dethangel]

Except that because the Grand-Master is an IC, he must activate his Nemesis Froce Weapon on his own. He does not benefit from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule at all. It explicitly states this in the codex (can't quote as I am at work and not near the codex).

But I would say the Talisman could be used to nullify the ID property of any wounds allocated to the Lord. Just wouldn't be able to turn off the whole unit.

But, things get really weird when you attach an IC without the Brotherhood rule to a unit with the Banner...

you must be a wolf player. "oh no, that would make my overpowered cavalry unit, less powerful i dont care what the rule says you cant do that.. noo.waaahhh:("
as onlythe GK unit is targeted by the power the wargear has no effect. sorry .
my poor wolfies

[Lemt]

Except that because the Grand-Master is an IC, he must activate his Nemesis Froce Weapon on his own. He does not benefit from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule at all. It explicitly states this in the codex (can't quote as I am at work and not near the codex).

But I would say the Talisman could be used to nullify the ID property of any wounds allocated to the Lord. Just wouldn't be able to turn off the whole unit.

But, things get really weird when you attach an IC without the Brotherhood rule to a unit with the Banner...

As you say, the rules specify that ICs have to make their own roll.
As for Talismans, RAW they are useless against GK Force Weapons, but I could see it get FAQed.

[armbarred]

@deth - Actually, I am Grey Knight player that cannot stand the Space Wolf codex. Don't make assumptions like that.

So are you saying the Talisman doesn't work on an IC's force weapon? Cause he isn't targeting the opponent then either... The force weapon works the same, it just is one roll one a wound is inflicted instead of waiting to allocate. Not that big of a difference really. If I were to play someone who had a piece of wargear/ability/special rule/pulled out of their a$#, I would allow an attempted negation for the wounds placed on that model only. One separate roll for each separate wound inflicted.

[Lemt]

@deth - Actually, I am Grey Knight player that cannot stand the Space Wolf codex. Don't make assumptions like that.

So are you saying the Talisman doesn't work on an IC's force weapon? Cause he isn't targeting the opponent then either... The force weapon works the same, it just is one roll one a wound is inflicted instead of waiting to allocate. Not that big of a difference really. If I were to play someone who had a piece of wargear/ability/special rule/pulled out of their a$#, I would allow an attempted negation for the wounds placed on that model only. One separate roll for each separate wound inflicted.

I would too, but RAW doesn't say that.

For the record, I don't play wolves either.

[RealGenius]

The Talisman wargear entry doesn't say "targeted", it reads "... is affected by an enemy psychic power..."

What about Runic Armor? "... 5+ invulnerable against all wounds caused by psychic attacks..." Wound Hammerhand wounds count as being "caused by psychic attacks"?

[Lemt]

I think we're going to have to wait for the FAQ/errata to solve this one. It could go either way.

[hisdudeness]

Is activating a force weapon a psychic power? Can a psychic hood negate a force weapon activation?

[armbarred]

@hisdude - Yes, it does and yes it can. The wound will still go through, but the ID effect can be negated.

@real - I don't see Runic Armour effecting wounds specifically because Hammerhand is active. I would say you could use the invulnerable save when allocated a wound if the Brotherhood test has already been passed though.

@lemt - I don't really think these need faqed but there are some things that do certainly need to be from this codex.

[DarkLink]

Ok, I missed the IC rolling separately part. Which is exactly why I made the thread, to check stuff like that:).


Anyways, a Str 5 attack that inflicts Instant Death is not a psychic attack. Wounds caused by it are not being caused by a psychic attack. You just need to pass two psychic tests in order to get those results. A hood could block those, but not a Talisman or Runic Armor.

On the other hand, since ICs always use normal Force Weapons rules, you do get Talismans against them.

[hisdudeness]

armbarred, do you have a reference for these? I do not know the rules off the top of my head and want to look these up when I get home.

My next question, is ID a psychic power? My line of thinking is can the persistant result of a psychic power be negated?

As of now, I'm not seeing how the ID would be blocked.

[armbarred]

As I am at work, I don't have my brb handy. I seem to recall it being mentioned in the section about psykers in the brb. I do not remember anything more specific at this point, but I will look for it when I am home.

[DarkLink]

Instant Death itself has absolutely nothing to do with psychic powers. It's just an attack property. If a weapon inflicts Instant Death, the model hit is removed by a single unsaved wound, regardless of total remaining wounds. No psychic defense in the game has any effect whatsoever on weapons that inflict Instant Death. Psychic defenses only affect pyschic powers, and Instant Death is not a psychic power.


Now, GKs use a psychic power on themselves, causing all their attacks to inflict Instant Death. This does not target the Wolf Lords themselves, and Talismans only work on psychic powers that affect the Wolf Lord directly. So, no Talisman save.

[hisdudeness]

No armbarred is correct, " The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponet that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn." (p50, BRB)

Pretty clear that it is made against a target.

I was thinking you used the power before combat not after saves had been rolled.

[DarkLink]

That's true for normal force weapons. So if the Grand Master tries to force weapon a Lord, the lord get his Talisman save.

Grey Knight squads, however, do not use the BRB rules for Force Weapons.

GK Codex:
"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule* need to take only a single psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (though indepedent characters still need to roll separately). If the test is passed, all the unit's Nemesis Force Weapons that phase inflict instant death."

*The GK Independant Characters don't have Brotherhood of Psykers


Under the rules in the GK codex, the Wolf Lord is never targeted by the psychic power. The GK unit takes a psychic test. If they pass, all their attacks inflict instant death. Talismans don't grant saves against instant death.

[hisdudeness]

Simmer down sunshine.

Most people here do not have access to the C:GK and up until you quoted the rule it was not entered in to this thread or this discussion. So don't get all bold and underliney. Neither did you quote the GK rule in your assertion that everyone was incorrect. All you stated was the lord was not targeted with no clear explanation way.

That side, I believe you are correct and is the line of thinking I was pushing.

[Whoop!]

No armbarred is correct, " The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponet that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn." (p50, BRB)

Pretty clear that it is made against a target.

I was thinking you used the power before combat not after saves had been rolled.

This would also lead me to believe that each GK only gets to ID one unsaved wound a turn. Regardless of whethter a brotherhood banner was used. Unless GK force weapons work differently, which I haven't read the codex...yet.

[hisdudeness]

I'm pretty sure the banner only lets the auto pass the activation of the FW, thus having no real bearing on the issue. The Botherhood of Psykers lets you make one roll for the squad witht he highest Ld of the unit. The rule quoted says ALL wounds cause ID for the rest of the phase.

So I believe you are incorrect.

[Sam]

That's true for normal force weapons. So if the Grand Master tries to force weapon a Lord, the lord get his Talisman save.

Grey Knight squads, however, do not use the BRB rules for Force Weapons.

GK Codex:
"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule* need to take only a single psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (though indepedent characters still need to roll separately). If the test is passed, all the unit's Nemesis Force Weapons that phase inflict instant death."

*The GK Independant Characters don't have Brotherhood of Psykers


Under the rules in the GK codex, the Wolf Lord is never targeted by the psychic power. The GK unit takes a psychic test. If they pass, all their attacks inflict instant death. Talismans don't grant saves against instant death.

The Brotherhood of Psykers rule is telling you that after you have inflicted a wound (or multiple wounds, doesn't matter) you take a pyschic test like you would for a regular Force Weapon, except that if you pass all those wounds become Instant Death, along with any wounds that follow. So, as long as at least one of those wounds was on the Wolf Lord or the squad he is attached to, he wound have the chance to negate it, as you are attempting to inflict Instant Death (at this point you are not simply making the wounds you inflict Instant Death, you are trying to inflict Instant Death on the models you just wounded). If the Wolf Lord fails to negate the initial activation, he will get no more attempts to do so, regardless of whether or not he is instant killed, or if the initial test was directed at a separate unit and later attacks start instant killing his squad.

Edit: Also, no where does it say that their Force Weapons are not the same as normal Force Weapons (because they are), they follow all the rules for normal Force Weapons aside from the fact that they only need a single pyschic for all the weapons in the unit (and all attacks made with said weapons). The wording on Brotherhood of Psykers does nothing to change the timing of the test, or to change the target of the power.

[DarkLink]

Except the Wolf Lord is not being affected by a psychic power. He is just taking a wound that causes Instant Death.

Following your logic, then the Wolf Lord would be able to dispel Hammerhand when he is hit by a str 5 attack from the GKs.

The GK close combat attacks are not psychic powers. The CC attacks are the only things going at the Lord. The psychic test itself is not targeting the Wolf Lord, so he does not get a Talisman save.

Edit: Wolf Lords get a talisman save against Force Weapons because of how force weapons are normally activated. Normally, you cast a psychic power on the Wolf Lord to instakill him after you have caused a wound. This is explicitly not how it works with GK Brotherhood of Psykers. BoP rules are specifically described to work completely differently, and they work in such a way that the Lord does not get a save.

[hisdudeness]

Problem sam is the “for the rest of the phase” part of the rule. If the squads FWs were activated at the normal time there is no need for this line as the units attacks are completed as soon as you make the test. This line tells us that you can activate the FW at any time during the phase before the attacks are made.

Darklink is correct.

[isotope99]

Whilst I agree RAW, the brotherhood of psykers rule replaces the force weapon rules, I would expect this to be FAQ'd. I can't imagine the intention was to deny a save where it would normally be available against force weapons.

Hammerhand is more obvious in that it clearly buffs the unit's strength.

[RealGenius]

I definitely agree on Hammerhand; allowing a Talisman or Runic Armor save there would be a slippery slope indeed-- things like Doom or even Fortune would then be called into question and I think only Wolf players would think that's correct.

[dethangel]

@deth - Actually, I am Grey Knight player that cannot stand the Space Wolf codex. Don't make assumptions like that.

So are you saying the Talisman doesn't work on an IC's force weapon? Cause he isn't targeting the opponent then either... The force weapon works the same, it just is one roll one a wound is inflicted instead of waiting to allocate. Not that big of a difference really. If I were to play someone who had a piece of wargear/ability/special rule/pulled out of their a$#, I would allow an attempted negation for the wounds placed on that model only. One separate roll for each separate wound inflicted.

relax it was a joke. im not a wolf player either. my point remains that the phypower is used on the weapon, not against the lord directly.
this topic my clear it self up on sat when the dex is released.

[bonedale]

Well I guess it all depends on what you think the word "Affected" means in the Talisman's rule.

First, clearly everything "affects" that IC/unit in one way or another. If you boost your S to 5, and then punch them, well that was an affect. If you cast shrouding, or whatever it is called and the Talisman unit tries to shoot you, clearly you affected their ability to do so. This can go on and on and on. So I am guessing the term "affect" doesn't literally mean what it sounds like it does. Or the Talisman is the ultimate wargear.

So my guess the term affect in the case of the talisman means something more direct. The IC/unit with the talisman had to do something because of a psy power. Maybe they had to take a dangerous terrain or leadership test. Maybe reroll successful saves, etc. It's a fine line that must be determined by the 2 gamers, and one GW relys on more and more.

The GK dex, good or bad in the end, is unique and that in itself rocks. But it is going to require comp gamers to work things out and as we all know, that is going to create issues.

My take on the thread question is the talisman will work against FW kills, but not hammerhand. And yes, I know that is not a consistent ruling. But I think the squad based FW attack is nothing more than a simplification of the rules for speed, and not intended to imply the attack is any different than one delivered from a GK IC FW.

[DarkLink]

If only GW were smart enough to define a target for every psychic power: eg "the GKs activate their force weapons. Take a psychic test targeting them, and their attacks inflict Instant Death" vs "take a psychic test targeting the enemy, and all wounds inflicted on them cause instant death".

Privateer press does it. Why can't GW get the picture:rolleyes:.

[Whoop!]

I think it states two things pretty clearly(for games workshop at least) in the rules PG 50 regarding Force Weapons .

1. The power is being used against a specific model. "The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use that weapon's power AGAINST any one opponent that suffered a wound by that weapon in that player turn."
That said I think a Wolf Lord with a Wolf Tail Talisman does get to roll to nullify. And not only because he is AWESOME!!!!

2. The instant death only can effect one opponent per weapon, per turn. "The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use that weapon's power against any ONE opponent that suffered a wound by that weapon in that player turn."

Now this is from the core rules book, and I do not have a Gray Nites codex yet.

Is there a rule that says nemesis force weapons behave differently than other force weapons? And really how many ID wounds do you really have to make in a turn? My Wolf Priests do very well with just one ID attack.

[Sonikgav]

Bottom line is yes.

The Grey Knight Forceweapons work differently to normal ones. It says that when the first wound is caused by a Nemesis Force Weapon roll a Psychic Test. If passed the attacks of the rest of the unit cause instant death for the remainder of that phase.

Its not so much that their force weapons its just that they gain the Instant death rule should that first wound activate it. (ie the I6 Halberds would also pass it on to the I4 Swords/I1 Hammers etc)

It doesnt mention the Force Weapon rules other than their actual name.

It could in theory be used against something that is immune to ID. The first wound is caused against something immune to ID (like a Charachter). The Psychic test is rolled though it doesnt effect the wounded model however the weapons of the rest of the squad are activated which means ID to any other multiwound model in the squad.

[Whoop!]

Then there you have it. If GK force weapons don't follow the rules for force weapons then I see your point.

Excelent editing GW!!!

[Tynskel]

yeah, but now that I look at the rules again, it explicitly states they follow the rules for Force Weapons in the 40k Rulebook.

[Sonikgav]

yeah, but now that I look at the rules again, it explicitly states they follow the rules for Force Weapons in the 40k Rulebook.

Im sure they do, on the charachters etc and single models that have Force Weapons however the Brotherhood of Psykers rule does alter it and codex trumps Rulebook.

[Whoop!]

will anyone quote from the new GK? I'll be at the GW on Sat & can look it up then, but I know you guys got one already. Do something other than build an overpriced undermanned force.;)

I'm really hoping my buddy buys some GKs as he don't paint, and I get to do it for him, Lucky me!!:) Those models are wicked!

[DarkLink]

yeah, but now that I look at the rules again, it explicitly states they follow the rules for Force Weapons in the 40k Rulebook.

Kinda. They're force weapons, thus they are power weapons and they can inflict instant death after a psychic test. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule modifies how they inflict instant death, however. That change is the whole issue here.

[Azrell]

I'm willing to bet for simplicity's sake they just made them all cause instant death. Having a rule as complicated as each model inflicting ID with one of its wounds would have made Matt Wards head explode, and would also taken over his self mandated time limit of 2 minutes to think up and write each rule before its published.

[Whoop!]

I went to the GW and read it, and they follow the rules for force weapons, with the exception that they cause ID for all attacks.

I didn't see anything to say it was different from force weapons, and they clearly are against a model, so the Wolf tail Talisman should work against the GK force weapons. In order to offset the BRB the codex would have to directly state it, like it does about the ID attacks.

Just one players opinion. Don't worry there will be an FAQ out in a few months.

[WillyRapier]

I feels a need to weigh in here...and against the Grey Knights (which is bad, because i'm a GK player). Though while feeling the need to weigh in, i'm not the authority on the rules and so if i sound like i'm saying "No, you're all wrong, listen to me for i r (the) god (emperor of mankind)!" i apologise. just saying as i read, people :)

The negating of instant death from the force weapons is possible. It specifically states in the GK codex that "all nemesis weapons are force weapons, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." That sentence is cut and dried, and therefore all Force Weapon rules apply.

This means that, as per the BRB (or LRB in my case, because i'm quoting my A5 copy right now :p) "The psyker may then take a psychic test to to use the weapons power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound...". So, in this case, any nemesis weapon-weilding psyker makes a test to use the weapons power, and this power is directed at the target and not the weapon. So the Talisman still works to prevent instant death, but the wound is taken as normal.

In addition to the normal force weapon rules, units with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule benefit from having all attacks from weapons in their unit inflict instant death, and to boot, they only have to take one test to make this work (or none, if they pay 25pts for the Brotherhood Banner). However, there is nothing that states that the method by which ID happens changes, therefore the instant death part of the attacks is still subject to talismans, etc.

As someone mentioned, Psychic hoods can also nullify this this power, although as only one test is taken, it can only try once (and only once , no matter how many psychic hoods may be in range) at the point that the test is made. unfortunately, as per the letter of the rules, this can also nullify the banner's auto-pass, because psychic hoods can be used "after an enemy model within 24" of the librarian passes a Psychic test". The banner doesnt negate the test, just lets you auto-pass it.

Again, just my take on the rules, as written in the finite (and no, i didnt miss the "in" off the front) wisdom of Matt Ward and the BRB authors.

Dissenters, the stage is yours; rabble-rouse away :)

[DarkLink]

Brotherhood of Psykers replaces the normal rules for activating force weapons. It does not suppliment them, it replaces them.

Psychic protection from force weapons relies on how force weapons are activated. If you got a save just because it was a force weapon, then you could argue that you could 'dispel' any wounds caused by the force weapon. But, no, the talisman save is against the activation of the force weapon.

Now, normally force weapons are activated by passing a psychic test that inflicts instant death on a target, after the target has been wounded. This clearly targets the enemy model, so it would get a talisman save.

However, as mentioned above, BoP replaces these normal activation rules. Under the new rules, you are not passing a psychic test to directly inflict instant death on your target. You are targeting your own unit to make their attacks inflict ID. At no point is the target actually targeted by the psychic power, the way the rule is worded.

[Whoop!]

So are you saying if the Wolf tail talisman succeeds then all the attacks lose instant death? Cool! Thanks Dark Link!

I will be looking at the codex tomorrow again, hopefully it will clear things up.

[DarkLink]

No. What I'm saying is that you don't get a Talisman save at all. Talisman saves only work when the Wolf Lord is being targeted by the psychic power. Brotherhood of Psykers modifies the force weapon activation so that the Lord is never targeted, thus he does not get a save.



I'll post the relevant rule:
Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independant characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death.



They may clarify that you can attempt a dispel with a Talisman, but the way the rule is worded the Lord is never targeted by the psychic power directly as is required for the Talisman to work.

[Whoop!]

I'll post the relevant rule:
Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independant characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death.



They may clarify that you can attempt a dispel with a Talisman, but the way the rule is worded the Lord is never targeted by the psychic power directly as is required for the Talisman to work.

Thank you for the specifics. Now show me the part that says WHEN that roll is made. IF it is reffered to the BRB Force weapons rule, then it will clearly be against a target.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm not convinced YET. I will look at the codex tomorrow, and that will probably nullify my argument. BUT until then, or one of yall can answer the activation question, I still see the possibility for the talisman to nullify the entire activation if in the right time at the right place.;)

[DarkLink]

The roll for the psychic test? It's taken at the first initiative step you cause unsave wounds, and all subsequent wounds inflict ID.

So in that case, you could argue that if the Wolf Lord is wounded at the first initiative step, he gets a dispel, but if he is wounded in the subsequent steps he does not. Hmmm...

[thecactusman17]

If the wolf lord is ever ht by a NFW, he would get a dispel attempt because he is being targeted with a psychic attack. However, he may not get hit by this attack immediately. So if your I6 Halberd strikes a wound first elsewhere in the combat, THEN your Falchions hit the Wolf Lord, the Halberds will cause ID as normal but when the step where the lord is hit comes up, all further powers cease if he dispels.

[WillyRapier]

Out of interest, where does it say that the BOP rule targets the unit?

The rule specifically states that Nemesis weapons are the same as force weapons. It then goes on to clarify that the BOP rule modifies the activation of those weapons by allowing the unit to make one test, and after that point, if successful, all attacks are ID.

It still doesn't say against what/whom the power is directed, so falling back on the FW rules from the BRB, the power affects the target to cause ID.

Effectively, the BOP rule makes the force weapon power a "stays in play until the end of the phase" effect that inflicts instant death on any unsaved wounds. Anyone that has protection against ID would get the save against ID, but still take the wound, as if they had been blasted in the face by a greater-than-double-toughness strength weapon. Just because you can nullify the ID effect, you still got smacked in some part of your body by a ridiculously big power sword/halberd/blade, and you're gonna feel the effects of that...

[Whoop!]

I think Willy has got it, unless I am missing something from the GK codex.

My buddy is on the way over with his codex, and a proxy army to test it out. I'm interested to see what it is like playing against the GK, they sound like a lot to handle! I'll be pouring over the book to see if I can find the answer to this question.

[DarkLink]

Out of interest, where does it say that the BOP rule targets the unit?

The rule specifically states that Nemesis weapons are the same as force weapons. It then goes on to clarify that the BOP rule modifies the activation of those weapons by allowing the unit to make one test, and after that point, if successful, all attacks are ID.


Normal Force Weapons say "take a psychic test to inflict ID on a target you've caused an unsaved wound on". You would get a save here, because the psychic power is what is inflicting ID so it much be targeting the Lord in order to work.

Nemesis force weapons, however, target the squad, in that they cause all the squads attacks to inflict ID. The psychic power isn't causing ID, the normal attacks are. The squad has to be the target of the power, not the lord. It doesn't make sense that you would cast a psychic power on an enemy unit, but that your own unit is affected.

[WillyRapier]

Nemesis force weapons, however, target the squad, in that they cause all the squads attacks to inflict ID. The psychic power isn't causing ID, the normal attacks are. The squad has to be the target of the power, not the lord. It doesn't make sense that you would cast a psychic power on an enemy unit, but that your own unit is affected.

Again...where does it say this. The specific rules for Force Weapons dictate that the power affects the target to inflict ID. Nothing in the BOP rule says anything about this. All the BOP rule says is that all attacks inflict Instant Death, but there is no more clarification. Based on the specific wording "All Nemesis weapons are force weapons as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook" and nothing contravenes this statement, you have to look to the rulebook. I dont like it, because i'm a GK player, but...well...there you go *shrugs*.

also, specifically, "normal" attacks dont get this rule. If you have a guy with a psycannon, and therefore no force weapon, his attacks dont get the ID rule. THAT would be ridiculous. The most logical interpretation of the rules is that the psychic power in the weapons affects the target to inflict instant death, and this power persists with the additional "help" of the BOP rule for all attacks, rather than just against one target.

tho, as i said before...just my opinion. In games where i play, i'm sure there'll be lively discussion, but i think this is the fairest interpretation.