Skimmer tankshocking through friendly units.

[wkz]

aka: the Pancake: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/spacecurves-tactics-class-research-and.html

Poor Spacecurves must either be running out of ideas, or scraping the bottom of a barrel, or something: (I have this feeling that) all of his latest classes have rules that run the gauntlet of "rules that need to be discussed" lately.

Basically, Can a tankshocking Skimmer fly over friendlies?
Affected races: Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar and... oh right, the StormRaven is not a tank.

Exhibit A:
BRB P68:Vehicles
"Remember, though, that friendly models still cannot be moved through, so a tank shock cannot be attempted if friendly models are in the way."
- CaterpillarHomicide

That seems clear enough: overlap a friendly model = stop right there.

Exhibit B:
SKIMMERS:
'Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.'
- Callan Howell-Pavia

So, skimmers can move OVER, not through friendly models... so can they tankshock OVER friendlies and THROUGH enemies, or can't they??


Exhibit C:
Read the latest GW faq on tank shocking skimmers. It clearly says they can move over intervening models and terrain and start "tank shocking" when they want to, so I think this does work.
- Ben Mohlie

BUT note that I gotten a read at the BRB FAQ, and I've not been able to find that sentence in the FAQ.


And last of all:

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model what
happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.
- pdelair

(Note that this will still pancake the enemy unit IF the vehicle is destroyed in such a way it does not touch friendly models)


So, yes or no to flying over friendly models to tankshock enemy models?

[eldargal]

Yes, you can move over friendly models and then declare a Tank Shock. This will affect how far you move in the tank shock move and thus how much damage you inflict to an enemy vehicle, but you can do it. If you declare the tank shock move while the skimmer is behind the friendly models, then it stops when it reaches them.

[steelmage99]

Seems obvious really.

The situation the FAQ refers to can only occur if flying over a friendly unit and then tank-shocking an enemy unit is allowed.

It also tells us that one can choose to fly OVER an enemy unit and tank-shock the enemy unit behind it.

[gcsmith]

The problem eldargirl is that you must declare a tankshock at the begining of your move, so if the FAQ says you can tankshock over friendlies then it doenst matter if your behind.

[eldargal]

Well I've only got access to my little AOBR rulebook but all it says is "when moving a tank, the player can declare that a vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of mivng normally'. It then explicitly states that 'friendly models still cannot be moved through, so a tank shock cannot be attempted it friendly troops are in the way'.

Nothing about declaring it at the start. Though the 'instead of a normal move' but affect it. A FAQ is not errata, it does not change RAW.

[wkz]

Hmmmm... What steelmage99 said make sense: the last FAQ noted in my initial post contains a situation ("over a friendly or enemy model") which will never occur if tankshocking over friendly models is disallowed...

[eldargal]

But the rulebook explicitly says it is disallowed and FAQs do not override rules.

[Lemt]

But the rulebook explicitly says it is disallowed and FAQs do not override rules.

Those are the rules for normal tank shocks. But wouldn't the skimmer's special movement rules be able to override that?

[slxiii]

But the rulebook explicitly says it is disallowed and FAQs do not override rules.

'Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.'
usually where a specific rule conflicts with a general one, you use the specific one.

[eldargal]

Sorry, I've got myself confused heh. Like I said in my first post, the way I see it is that skimmers move over the friendly troops then start their tank shock. They don't start the tank shock prior to moving over the friendlies otherwise they would tank shock the friendlies, meaning they halt.

[hisdudeness]

So you are saying one could move their Predator out from behind cover turn it to point at a unit and THEN declare ‘tank shock’?

The problem I have with this is that the BRB says “instead”, which normally means you have a choice of a set of options. Here we have a choice of tank shocking or moving normally. I do not see how it can be claimed that you can do both.

[AngelsofDeath]

I think that the example given is not a really good one. The fact thats its being over the top a bit and not just tank shocking, but also trying to surround the enemy as well to force no place for them to move to is the problem. Clearly in the Space Curves pictures you would have to move at least 2 friendly models to be able to tank shock the marines in the middle. And it has come withint 1in of friendly models to if I am correct the tank shock would stop and not even happen.

The way I would allow this would be if there was a friendly unit in front of my skimmer and could go over them and have enough room to touch down and continue with my tank shock into the enemy. Skimmers go over friendly troops and still has enough room to set down (gets closer to the ground) to ensure the enemy can not just duck underneath the skimmer.

Just a thought

[eldargal]

Quite, I did say that was the one flaw in the argument. But you can argue that the skimmer rule, which allows it to move over terrain and units, trumps the general rule in this case. The skimmer can tank shot, effectively from behind friendly troops, but the tank shock starts after the friendly troops so you don't get the full range damage. Thats how my group plays it, it is just a house rule but we see it being consistent with the BRB.

[JxKxR]

Well looking at the rule book I would say you can't, because the section about tank shocking it says that you can't tank shock through friendly models and (In the book) it DOES NOT say that skimmers are the exception to that rule.

I suppose if you do use the FAQ then you can do it, IF it really is in the FAQ. I haven't looked though.

[hisdudeness]

We are told exactly how to tank shock and there is no mention of skimmer rules changing this process. There might be a case if the skimmer rules were in a codex (claim codex > BRB), but they are both in the BRB.

The general v. specific argument fails because the specific rule (skimmer rules) do not mention any modification to the tank shock rules, only a modification to normal movement rules.

[crazy_irish]

The general v. specific argument fails because the specific rule (skimmer rules) do not mention any modification to the tank shock rules, only a modification to normal movement rules.

Your argument fails as the general v. specific argument can be seen in other rules, e.g. falling back. There is no mentioning that jumptroops fall back an additional d6" in the general rule. The rules are changed by the specific rules inside the rulebook.

[eldargal]

I'm with crazy irish on this, specific trumps general as established by long precedent and convention.Skimmers can fly over troops and terrain, thus they can fly over troops and terrain in order to tank shock. The general tank shock doesn't mention this because there is no need for it to do so.

[JxKxR]

I'm with crazy irish on this, specific trumps general as established by long precedent and convention.Skimmers can fly over troops and terrain, thus they can fly over troops and terrain in order to tank shock. The general tank shock doesn't mention this because there is no need for it to do so.

Just know that it doesn't SPECIFICALLY say that skimmers can tank shock over friendly models so you are doing a house rule or going by the FAQ.

[eldargal]

Quite, our interpretation is a houserule, but one we feel is consistent with the rules. Unlike the other argument which for some reason has decided general trumps specific in this one case.:rolleyes: It is entirely within the rights of any group to houserule that skimmers can not tank shock over friendly troops. It isn't exactly consistent with the rules, but that is irrelevent. It will atleast prevent arguments and that is the main thing.

[Skragger]

I love situations like this. While technically yes, the rules say a skimmer can tankshock over friendly units, the pancake doesn't make much logical sense. Which is big in our gaming group. Lets review:

A tankshock is the tank travelling at high speeds trying to run people over

A tankshocking skimmer is essentially the same thing, but rather than treads, its using anti-gravity/VOTL Jets/String to attain high speed. This poses a problem for the friendly units getting cooked like a bad pot roast underneith the jets/flattened like a crepe under the overpowering anti-grab jets/getting garroted by the string.

Secondly, after it roasts poor trooper Steve, who was only two days from retirement, what does it do after that? A tank shock involves moving fast and hard, but if its flying over its own models, then shocking, doesn't that mean it.. settles down ontop of the enemies gently? Unless its slamming down like an overweight person sitting on the enemies, in which case it should take impact hits from the ground.

If someone tried it in our group, we'd cry shenanigans. Its finding a small hole in the rules and exploiting the demiurge out of it. While it should technically be doable, its a bit of a dreadknight (read: do*che) move.

[JxKxR]

It's just one of those many grey areas in the rules where you have two conflicting rules and you have to ignore one. You have to agree with your opponent on this one or just role a die. Pretty simple.

[eldargal]

I disagree, respectfully, I think it makes more sense to assume the advantages of an anti-grav vehicle would be utilised to enable it to soar over friendly troops before slamming down onto the nearby enemy. Having said that, our houserule does say there has to be room for the skimmer to land fully between the friendly units and the enemy. Someone else mentioned they followed a similar principle I believe.

[Skragger]

I disagree, respectfully, I think it makes more sense to assume the advantages of an anti-grav vehicle would be utilised to enable it to soar over friendly troops before slamming down onto the nearby enemy. Having said that, our houserule does say there has to be room for the skimmer to land fully between the friendly units and the enemy. Someone else mentioned they followed a similar principle I believe.

That makes sense. The pancake manuever makes no sense, but if there's room between (min 6" maybe?) the friendly units and the target units. So there's a chance to rev up without frying your mates.

[AngelsofDeath]

Ok I am going to back up a bit here and point out an idea. The concept is "Tank Shock" which according to page 68 40K rule book it says Tanks are the most common vehicle type found on the battlefields..etc.. Then says "Tanks follow the normal rules for vehicles, with the additions and exceptions given below" Next it says "Tanks may decide to use their mass as a weapon, driving right into and through densely packed enemies etc...etc...". No where does it say skimmers at all throughout the section on Tank Shock but it does not have to. Because under the description of certain skimmers, (Eldar Falcon for example) it says Skimmer, TANK, Fast. So being a tank it falls into the Tank Shock catagory. The Raider is Skimmer, Fast, Open-toped but due to the "Shock Prow" it allows a player to Tank Shock with it. It says skimmers can move over friendly models and terrain.

Once again I will point out that with Space Curves the example shown is illegal, no way, can not happen, he had to move friendly models to get the raider into contact with enemy models, as well as coming withing 1inch of his own troops. It could not have avoided his own models with that set up.

If the friendlys are in front of the skimmer to start (more than 1inch) and there is enough room for the skimmer to come back in contact with the ground and the friendlys are behind the skimmer (more than 1inch) before coming into contact with the enemy a Tank Shock should be viable.

I am a marine player and I think this is fine. It is just a rule that should follow the rules for skimmers.

[steelmage99]

It's just one of those many grey areas in the rules where you have two conflicting rules and you have to ignore one. You have to agree with your opponent on this one or just role a die. Pretty simple.

In this case we don't have to ignore one of the rules, which is a bad way of reading the rules anyway.

We can implement them both.

[steelmage99]

Once again I will point out that with Space Curves the example shown is illegal, (snip) as well as coming withing 1inch of his own troops.

Just a minor thing, but the "no-closer-than-1-inch-rule" only applies to enemy models.

[somerandomdude]

But the rulebook explicitly says it is disallowed and FAQs do not override rules.

GW does in fact make a habit of printed FAQ answers that do go against the rules. Voidraven Bomber? PotMS with Smoke/Flat Out?

Sure, most of the time FAQs answer according to the rules, but not always.

[eldargal]

Exactly, which is why GW say that the FAQs are just their internal houserules and should not be taken as overriding the ruleset. My own group ignores several FAQs entirely and significant parts of others we disagree with. Probably one of the reason why none of our 'nid players things tyranids are underpowered.:rolleyes:

[hisdudeness]

The discussion is not general v specific, it is specific v specific. We have specific rules for tank shock v specific rules for skimmers. The’ general’ rule modified is movement. I meant to add this point to my last post but the interwebz distracted me (I like the Event Only Mk3 Boarding Marine). So which specific rule changes/trumps the other?

If skimmers where allowed to move over friendlies a clause would have been added stating this fact when the rule mention what happens when tank shocking model encounters friendly models.

[spacecurves]

Hey guys, Spacecurves here. I figured it was about time I made a lounge account.

First, this article was presented as a question, not a statement, and I think it is an interesting question to say the least. No bottoms of barrels are being scraped thank you very much. :)

Second, I don't think there is any clear answer with the stock rules, but if you are playing with the INAT, then I think this tactic works. If you are not using the INAT, hopefully this article makes you consider what your group would rule in this situation.

[eldargal]

Tank shock is modified movement in the sense that you move, but there is no reason to assume that something which modifies movement for a unit (the skimmer rule) would suddenly not apply in this case. You are basically arguing that for this one action a skimmer counts as a regular vehicle.


The discussion is not general v specific, it is specific v specific. We have specific rules for tank shock v specific rules for skimmers. The’ general’ rule modified is movement. I meant to add this point to my last post but the interwebz distracted me (I like the Event Only Mk3 Boarding Marine). So which specific rule changes/trumps the other?

If skimmers where allowed to move over friendlies a clause would have been added stating this fact when the rule mention what happens when tank shocking model encounters friendly models.

[JxKxR]

Tank shock is modified movement in the sense that you move, but there is no reason to assume that something which modifies movement for a unit (the skimmer rule) would suddenly not apply in this case. You are basically arguing that for this one action a skimmer counts as a regular vehicle.

It just wierd because in the Tank shock section it says that you can't tank shock through friendly models and doesn't say that skimmers are the exception to the rule. You see were we are coming from?

[eldargal]

Absolutely, I don't agree but I can see why you might interpret it that way.:)

[somerandomdude]

It just wierd because in the Tank shock section it says that you can't tank shock through friendly models and doesn't say that skimmers are the exception to the rule. You see were we are coming from?

But nothing says that the top-down 2d perspective of your path going through the unit means that you actually did tank shock the unit.

Non-skimmers have 2d movement. Skimmers do not. Flying over a friendly unit means that you don't tank shock that friendly unit, since you didn't move through them.

[JxKxR]

Good then. :)

I'm not saying you can't do it I'm just saying the rules aren't crystal clear so you have to agree on it with your opponent or just flip a coin or something.

[hisdudeness]

But we have a very specific set of steps given for how to tank shock. Included are rules on how a tank shocking vehicle behaves when certain situations occur. Fluff (a skimmer does not touch the ground) is being added to how the real model interacts. All movement on the board level is 2d. The rules for skimmer say they can ignore set items during movement, not that they ‘fly’ over them.

We are told that when a tank shocking vehicle moves and encounters a friendly unit it stops. GW did not add a line that states skimmers can ignore this part. Until they do, skimmers are stuck ‘on the ground’ during a tank shock.

[gcsmith]

THe clause doesnt need to be there, After all it didnt need to mention that in tank shocking since a model cant move through friendly models. However, Skimmers state they may move over friendlys and enemies, and tank shock means you may move 'through' enemies, which if u combine with skimmer allows u to go over friendly then through enemies.

Though ur interpretation could be just as correct.

[Mr.Pickelz]

if a skimmer tank shocks at full speed wouldn't that cut the hair off and/or burn the heads of the units he's flying over? i'm looking at eldar falcons/wave serpents.... Those Dire Avengers' fancy hair pieces would be no more, me thinks. :D

[JxKxR]

if a skimmer tank shocks at full speed wouldn't that cut the hair off and/or burn the heads of the units he's flying over? i'm looking at eldar falcons/wave serpents.... Those Dire Avengers' fancy hair pieces would be no more, me thinks. :D

Well that's enough reason to not do it right there.

[hisdudeness]

gcsmith, then you are selectively applying the skimmer rules. If the skimmer rules say you ignore friendly and enemy models then you would have to ignore both while you tank shock also.

We cannot pick and choose what part of the rule you want to apply. The tank shock rules tell us everything we need to know so a model may tank shock. Pulling rules (skimmer rules) that do not specifically modify how tank shock how works is not allowed. Neither tank shock nor skimmer rules state that they modify the other so they do not. Skimmer rules modify normal movement (may ignore a listed set of items while moving), tank shock is not normal movement.

[JxKxR]

gcsmith, then you are selectively applying the skimmer rules. If the skimmer rules say you ignore friendly and enemy models then you would have to ignore both while you tank shock also.

We cannot pick and choose what part of the rule you want to apply. The tank shock rules tell us everything we need to know so a model may tank shock. Pulling rules (skimmer rules) that do not specifically modify how tank shock how works is not allowed. Neither tank shock nor skimmer rules state that they modify the other so they do not. Skimmer rules modify normal movement (may ignore a listed set of items while moving), tank shock is not normal movement.

Aaaaah. Hisdudeness brings up a good point about tank shocking not being a regular movement, so what do you have now?

[Skragger]

if a skimmer tank shocks at full speed wouldn't that cut the hair off and/or burn the heads of the units he's flying over? i'm looking at eldar falcons/wave serpents.... Those Dire Avengers' fancy hair pieces would be no more, me thinks. :D

Guardsman Jones (26,450 days from retirement): There are eldar here planning an ambush!
Guardsman Steve (2 days from retirement): How can you tell?
Guardsman Jones (26,450 days from retirement): I can see the tops of their silly hats poking up behind that fallen tree over there)
Guardsman Steve (2 days from retirement): Oh, there they are, you should go first
Guardsman Jones (26,450 days from retirement): Why?
Guardsman Steve (2 days from retirement): No reason...

[gcsmith]

Skimmer rules say you CAN ignore them, not u must ignore them.

[hisdudeness]

I was lost on where this all came from and found the article. Spacecurves states that you place the raider on the enemy models. This is not how tank shock works. The entire situation is not possible beyond ringing the enemy unit.

We are told the tank shocking model stops at the model that is DoG or that the enemy models move out of the way. We are not told the friendly model may do this. Even under the ‘ignore friendly’ view, the raider must stop at the DoG model which places him on a friendly model. Since the friendly models cannot move out of the way the raider cannot be placed.

If it says you can/may then you got me, I’m going off memory so I’m trying not to claim a specific wording unless I am sure of it.

[AngelsofDeath]

So how would tank shock work with terrain? If a unit is on the other side of a terrain piece but there is enough room for the skimmer to fit between the terrain and the unit being tank shocked without coming in contact with the terrain piece,would the skimmer be forced to take a difficult terrain test when flying over it? Even though it says skimmers ignore terrain unless they come to rest at the end of their movement on top of the terrain?

[JxKxR]

So how would tank shock work with terrain? If a unit is on the other side of a terrain piece but there is enough room for the skimmer to fit between the terrain and the unit being tank shocked without coming in contact with the terrain piece,would the skimmer be forced to take a difficult terrain test when flying over it? Even though it says skimmers ignore terrain unless they come to rest at the end of their movement on top of the terrain?

You can totally fly/skim over terrain.

[hisdudeness]

Good point AngelsofDeath. I will have to wait until I can read the rules again to make a final
comment. At this point I would have to say yes.

The closest thing I can think of is the Jump Inf and assault move that may apply or give insight. But we are specifically told this is what happens.

[AngelsofDeath]

You can totally fly/skim over terrain.

My point exactlly! People cant pick and choose what object a skimmer can and can not go over when the rule says it can go over terrain and models.

[JxKxR]

My point exactlly! People cant pick and choose what object a skimmer can and can not go over when the rule says it can go over terrain and models.

But in the tank shock section it says you can't go through friendly models. That's my only problem with it and I'm not trying to be stubborn I'm just saying that the tank shock section and skimmer section are just a little bit conflicting.

Personally I would be fine if someone wanted to do it.

[JxKxR]

Although I suppose you could argue that the skimmer isn't going through the friendly units, but instead going over them.

[L192837465]

But in the tank shock section it says you can't go through friendly models. That's my only problem with it and I'm not trying to be stubborn I'm just saying that the tank shock section and skimmer section are just a little bit conflicting.

Personally I would be fine if someone wanted to do it.

Lets then assume that there was a gap in the ring, exactly as wide as the skimmer. Now apply thought. What happens to the unit surrounded and now squished? Would this be more akin to play-dough than pancakes?

[hisdudeness]

If you read mid way down in the blog comments you find the FAQ:

Page 5
"Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model what
happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models."

This does imply that you can in fact tank shock over your own models (at the least the intent is there). But this still makes the tactic invalid as the model is moved “the shortest possible distance” out of B2B with the DoG model.

[JxKxR]

Lets then assume that there was a gap in the ring, exactly as wide as the skimmer. Now apply thought. What happens to the unit surrounded and now squished? Would this be more akin to play-dough than pancakes?

Yeah play-dough sounds good. They would just squese their way out.

[spacecurves]

If you read mid way down in the blog comments you find the FAQ:

Page 5
"Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model what
happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models."

This does imply that you can in fact tank shock over your own models (at the least the intent is there). But this still makes the tactic invalid as the model is moved “the shortest possible distance” out of B2B with the DoG model.

I agree with your point about the implication that you can tank shock over your own models. That is part of what makes me think it works.

But how does this make the tactic invalid? You don't land on top of your own guys, you move OVER them, landing on top of the enemy. At this point the enemy has to displace, but they can't without coming within 1 inch of my surrounding models.

[hisdudeness]

You cannot land on top of another model. I believe the tank shock rules state you stop as soon as you encounter an enemy unit. This stops you on top of your own models. Even the skimmer rules say you cannot stop on top of enemy models.

Thus we have skimmer rules saying you can move over and tank shock rules saying you cannot. Which trumps which? Also, even if the tank shocking model can stop on top of the enemy they will just move outside the ring. This is not a defined moment where unable to move equals death. The “shortest possible distance” is where it falls apart. Where are we told they need to stay 1" away during the displacement?

[JxKxR]

I agree with your point about the implication that you can tank shock over your own models. That is part of what makes me think it works.

But how does this make the tactic invalid? You don't land on top of your own guys, you move OVER them, landing on top of the enemy. At this point the enemy has to displace, but they can't without coming within 1 inch of my surrounding models.

What hisdudeness said. As soon as the front of the skimmer came in contact with the first space wolf it stops but then in your example it would land on your friendly models which it can't do. It was a nice try though.

Edit: But maybe you could salvage your tactic and even open it up to anyone with a tank.

Just make a bubble tight enough to hold the marines in place but leave a gap for the tank to squese up into but not enough room for the wolves to squese out once they have been tank shocked. Although you still have the question of whether or not the wolves "teleport" out of the bubble.

[AngelsofDeath]

Let not forget the fact with all of this that you have to declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. Depending on situation you could actually tank shock 2 enemy units as per the rule book. I also didnt know that if the tank moves slowly enough during the tank shock attack, it may fire as normal in the Shooting phase. Thats a 2fer, shock and if they pass morale then shoot them...

[JxKxR]

Let not forget the fact with all of this that you have to declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. Depending on situation you could actually tank shock 2 enemy units as per the rule book. I also didnt know that if the tank moves slowly enough during the tank shock attack, it may fire as normal in the Shooting phase. Thats a 2fer, shock and if they pass morale then shoot them...

Oh yeah never mind that garbage I just said then.

[spacecurves]

You cannot land on top of another model. I believe the tank shock rules state you stop as soon as you encounter an enemy unit. This stops you on top of your own models. Even the skimmer rules say you cannot stop on top of enemy models.

Thus we have skimmer rules saying you can move over and tank shock rules saying you cannot. Which trumps which? Also, even if the tank shocking model can stop on top of the enemy they will just move outside the ring. This is not a defined moment where unable to move equals death. The “shortest possible distance” is where it falls apart. Where are we told they need to stay 1" away during the displacement?

I think what the question comes down to is this: can the skimmer choose to "activate" the tank shock move at a point along their path, or do they have to go at "ground level" the whole way? I don't think there is any answer in the main rulebook so its up to individual groups to decide.

I will say though, that if you are playing according to the INAT, I think the tactic works. You can in effect "turn on" the tank shock when you are right over the enemy squad. As for what happens afterwards, there isn't even any guidance in the INAT for that one. Does the enemy squish? Do they "playdo" through my dudes? *shrug* there is no clear answer there. But hopefully, tournament organizers will read the article and decide their opinions before such a thing happens at their event. :)

As should be clear from the article it is mainly a rules question and point for debate, I'm not preaching it as canon. It's an interesting situation right?

[AngelsofDeath]

I just wish my Stormraven could tank shock. :D

[JxKxR]

We understand it's a rules question we read it, and you’re right it is an interesting situation. I usually don't get too wrapped up in these rules questions, but for some reason I like discussing this one. So thanks for bringing it up!:D

[hisdudeness]

Even if you can "activate" a tank shock mid move (which you can't as you would be doing a normal move and a tank shock in the same turn) it still will not matter. You cannot end a skimmers move in the same space as another model. Since both rules seem to be in effect, you have to satisfy the requirement for both-- to include all restrictions.

My point still stands; the skimmer would be forced out of B2B with the DoG model thus stopping the tank shock. If anything you would be forced to continue the rest of declared tank shock distance and not stop at the encircled unit.

[L192837465]

Yeah play-dough sounds good. They would just squese their way out.

They can't though. They cannot, during any part of their movement come within 1" of an enemy model. Would the unit be wiped out, unless it could stop the vehicle with DoG?

[spacecurves]

Even if you can "activate" a tank shock mid move (which you can't as you would be doing a normal move and a tank shock in the same turn) it still will not matter. You cannot end a skimmers move in the same space as another model. Since both rules seem to be in effect, you have to satisfy the requirement for both-- to include all restrictions.

My point still stands; the skimmer would be forced out of B2B with the DoG model thus stopping the tank shock. If anything you would be forced to continue the rest of declared tank shock distance and not stop at the encircled unit.

Here's my counter argument: No where in tank shocking does it say skimmers stop acting like skimmers. If it superseded all other movement rules, they would need a massive new section detailing how far every vehicle could go, what it can move over, what it can't etc. So I say, just like the INAT does, that yes Skimmers can "toggle" their tank shock move, allowing them to fly over intervening models.

Now if for a minute to accept the above, then the final placement of the skimmer works fine. Remember, tank shock displaces enemy models from the final position of the tank. The skimmer is performing a tank shock move. Therefor it IS allowed to "land on" enemy models in this way. It is just like a rhino tank shocking, ending up on top of a squad, and the squad moving out of the way.

If you don't think skimmers move like skimmers during tank shock, then the raider has to stop when it hits my units and nothing bad happens to the grey hunters.

[AngelsofDeath]

Now if for a minute to accept the above, then the final placement of the skimmer works fine. Remember, tank shock displaces enemy models from the final position of the tank. The skimmer is performing a tank shock move. Therefor it IS allowed to "land on" enemy models in this way. It is just like a rhino tank shocking, ending up on top of a squad, and the squad moving out of the way.

If you don't think skimmers move like skimmers during tank shock, then the raider has to stop when it hits my units and nothing bad happens to the grey hunters.

The rules do say that if the tank accidentally moves into contact with a friendly model or come to within 1" of an enemy vehicle, it immediately stops moving.

I think skimmers can tank shock so long as their path takes them over friendly models and terrain or even an enemy vehicle so long as the guess range has the distance to do so to reach its targeted unit.

In the "Pancake Special" the DE has the wolves surrounded and there was no way to avoid coming into contact its own models to be able to tank shock the marines. Maybe only surrounding the marines on 3 sides and calling it a "Smile Special" might be appropriate.

Like I said before I am a marine player and do not play any armies with skimmers that can tank shock. But I would rather discuss this on a forum then during a heated game.

[Tynskel]

There is nothing in the tank shock rules that says that if a model cannot move out of the way, it is removed. All the rules state is that the models must maintain coherency and move the minimum distance to do so. In the case of spacecurves article, the marines would simply open a void in space and appear on the other side of the dark eldar unit, moving the shortest distance possible, while maintaining coherency.

Anytime there is removing of models, the rulebook explicitly states so. (example, ramming at flat out, and the ramming vehicle explodes: the embarked unit is removed- the rulebook states if a model cannot disembark, the unit is removed, and the flat out rules state you cannot disembark in the same turn you move flat out.)

[hisdudeness]

Where are we told we can activate tank shock mid move? “When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally.” (p68, BRB) See that little word ‘instead”? It means you choose to tank shock or movie normally, not a little of both.

“…, move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy model or it reaches the distance declared—…” The raider stops as soon as it hits the first model in the enemy unit and stops. You maybe skimming, but you cannot choose to ignore only part of the unit so you can get farther in. To end in the unit as you show in the second picture, the raider would have to ignore the first 6 models of the SW squad. I might concede you could tank shock them, but picking and choosing which models in a squad are ignored is really pushing it.

Thus stopping at the first model in contact will stop the raider on a friendly unit. The FAQ tells us to “move the shortest distance” to correct this issue. Since the shortest distance is back you stop at the first DE model. Which stops the raider from continuing the tank shock because it “came into contact with a friendly model”.

[JxKxR]

They can't though. They cannot, during any part of their movement come within 1" of an enemy model. Would the unit be wiped out, unless it could stop the vehicle with DoG?

Read what Tynskel wrote that is what I was talking about.

[AngelsofDeath]

Where are we told we can activate tank shock mid move? “When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally.” (p68, BRB) See that little word ‘instead”? It means you choose to tank shock or movie normally, not a little of both.

I agree with everything else you said except for this. You are not activating a "Tank Shock" in mid flight. You are going to declare you are making a tank shock with your skimmer. And instead of making your normal move you are going to turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and "Declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move" The vehicle must move at least at "Combat Speed". This is the point in the rules of not making a normal move. It is not normal to declare how far your vehicle will move or for it to have to move at combat speed.

This is a definition or the act of moving forward:
Forward indicates a direction toward the front or a movement in a frontward direction. Forward applies to any movement toward what is or is conceived to be the front or a goal.

In a forward moving direction for a skimmer it can go over models and terrain. So as long as you have declared the correct distance you will not have to stop when coming in to contact with your own models or be forced to take a terrain test for landing on it.

[JxKxR]

So I just have a little question for you all. In the book under tank shock it says "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." So the question, is the skimmer no longer able to move like a skimmer since it is tank shocking and not moving normally?

[hisdudeness]

JxKxR, I believe the FAQ answers that at a minimum, the intent is that they can tank shock over friendly models. DoG can only happen during a tank shock, so it seems pretty clear.

DeathofAngels, I was answering spacecurves statement where he brought up “activation”.

[AngelsofDeath]

So I just have a little question for you all. In the book under tank shock it says "When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt a tank shock attack instead of moving normally." So the question, is the skimmer no longer able to move like a skimmer since it is tank shocking and not moving normally?

Look at the post above your post. Normal moves do not have to declare distance or move forwards in a straight line. In a tank shock you have to declare how far you are moving and move forward to that distance. Forwards is a direction, if a skimmer goes over models and terrain like it says it can it will still be able to move forward.

[JxKxR]

JxKxR, I believe the FAQ answers that at a minimum, the intent is that they can tank shock over friendly models. DoG can only happen during a tank shock, so it seems pretty clear.

DeathofAngels, I was answering spacecurves statement where he brought up “activation”.

Allright then, thanks.

[AngelsofDeath]

DeathofAngels,”.

Oh you made a funny...

[hisdudeness]

Oh you made a funny...


Oops.

[wkz]

Erm.... one friend brought up this point in the past: with regards to "instead of making your normal move"... what if your tank is surrounded by models that are assaulting you when it starts its tankshock?

After all, "you are going to turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it"... and the normal tank movement rules say (my words) "You can pivot the tank on the spot (over enemy models), and then move the enemy models back into base-to-base with the tank", thus allowing the tank to pivot... ... ... BUT it is not a normal move now, is it? So, can it still pivot?

Another point: Does the tank also ignore all Difficult/dangerous terrain between itself and the target? Does the tank ignore enemy and friendly models it moves through that are in the way... oh wait, for the last point it is specifically specified that stuff happens when the vehicle moves through those models. But does it specify what happens to models it moves OVER (skimmer rules)? Does it still ignore all Difficult/dangerous terrain between itself and the target? What about models in this case?

Tankshock uses movement rules abet a bit differently, with restrictions and one additional rule on how you move (place the tank even if over enemy models, move enemy models out of the way) to get things done. Skimmer modifies those movement rules themselves. At least that's how I see it.

... Oh, and those darn space elves probably will not even warm up the funky hats of their dire-avenger allies I think. After all, when their evil cousins can swoop into enemy infantry flat out and still slice specific arteries, I would imagine a falcon blasting in like a meteor right out of hell and still stop with wingblades a few inches from every friendly face.

Also, another point: The tank is only placed AFTER it stops (via immobilization on DT, very successful DoG, or when it reaches where it wants to go). IMO The argument about DoG causing the skimmer to be over friendly models is moot because of this...

... Also, will the unit getting pancaked "teleport" out of the "circle of death"? After all, "minimum distance to get out of the way" does mean that the only legal spot is OUTSIDE the circle of death, depending on your interpretation of "out of the way"...

Gah, this move is headache inducing.


PS:
Hey guys, Spacecurves here. I figured it was about time I made a lounge account.

First, this article was presented as a question, not a statement, and I think it is an interesting question to say the least. No bottoms of barrels are being scraped thank you very much. :)

Second, I don't think there is any clear answer with the stock rules, but if you are playing with the INAT, then I think this tactic works. If you are not using the INAT, hopefully this article makes you consider what your group would rule in this situation... erm, no offense intended. Really. I didn't even spot the fact that this is a question instead of a lesson on "how to"...

Just that it seems like all your latest lessons tend to need major discussion (read: arguments) with your opponent before the game even starts. See this thread for an example... Hell, you should hear my gaming group "processing" the last one (retreating out of a "cup") :D

Anyways, thanks for bringing up this unique situation so that we can get to discuss it BEFORE its in a game.


(quite a lot of edits... I'm done with edits. Honest)

[JxKxR]

Headache inducing indeed.

[JxKxR]

... Also, will the unit getting pancaked "teleport" out of the "circle of death"? After all, "minimum distance to get out of the way" does mean that the only legal spot is OUTSIDE the circle of death, depending on your interpretation of "out of the way"...



If when the tank, tank shocked them they made a fall back move then they would be destroyed, but it doesn't say they make a fall back move.
It says "If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency."
So yeah they teleport.

[Tynskel]

wow.
I think wkz n' I may have agreed on something.
I won't let it get to me. Must keep up the 'emnity' (is that even a word?) that Jwolf was talking about.

As I pointed out, to reiterate, the rules do not state the unit is removed, all they state is that they must move the minimum distance, and maintain coherency, to get out of the way. They will 'teleport'.

If you do it right, and have impassible terrain all over the place, you make the space wolves 'shunt' 30".

[wkz]

...
If you do it right, and have impassible terrain all over the place, you make the space wolves 'shunt' 30"."Closest distance"
Unless you have them right at the edge of (a scale model of) the Rocky Mountains and you tankshock them with a Manta, there is no way those Space Wolves are going to 'shunt' 30".

At best, they're going to "shunt" 6" to that empty spot to the side... maybe 12", but you're going to need a WAAAGH's worth of models to even go that far...

PS: I'm glad vehicles are not allowed in the space-hulk-like table my friend has. If a unit can be tankshocked THROUGH a wall...


Lastly:


I won't let it get to me. Must keep up the 'emnity' (is that even a word?) that Jwolf was talking about.
Stop baiting already, would ya?

Also, internet directories and google are your friend:
en·mi·ty/ˈenmitē/
Noun: The state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something

[Tynskel]

Hah!
I used a crappy dictionary. It didn't even have emnity!
Baiting, I am not baiting. I am just pointing out redonkulousness. And besides, according to that definition, you and I were not in 'emnity'- you were agreeing with my statement about not being destroyed.

You don't have to have rocky mountains. If you have a 'small' board, and you are playing Apocalypse, there will be models everywhere, and a move like that could easily 'shunt' your models 30".

[steelmage99]

Back on topic.

Has the question above the one we most refer to in this thread been considered?

I am talking about;


Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that is
in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.

This could be relevant as it tells us that the Tank Shock of a skimmer doesn't happen "along the ground" for the entire duration of the Tank Shock.


If this has already be addressed I apologize for being slow on the uptake. :)

[Tynskel]

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the rules that state that the skimmer rules are ignored. This is due, for the most part, because the rules are an abstraction and do not account for 3D movement. It is more like 2.5D, only counting for infantry (movement in ruins) and shooting.

You are not allowed to change directions, but because you cannot modify your height (I had a great idea for telescopic skimmer stands, then later found out they cannot work), you never technically 'change direction' in the vertical sense.

Essentially, skimmer rules are not negated by the non-normal move from Tank Shock.


Seriously, though, I need to try the Space Wolves 'shunt' move.