New Army Advice - Army Power Ranking

[cwsanger]

Ok, so to help me with the painting of my UltraMarines and to add a little spice I am going to be starting a second army:-) Now I am the kind of player that does not go For Fast Attack units...I prefer the Heavy Support. I prefer smash-mouth and bluntness to finesse and subterfuge. So now then I am looking for a little help in choosing my army. So based on this little bit of info what army would you recommend and why?

Also, I have seen lists before that list the current dexes from OP at the top to avoid these since they are outdated. Is there a list for the current dexes?

Thanks.

[newtoncain]

in order of newest released after 5th edition.
GK
DE
BA
Nids
Wolves
IG
Ork
SM

Wolf is always smash mouth
IG has great heavy choices
Alll are good with the right build;)

[eagleboy7259]

It can't necessarily be thought of that all armies have a competitive ranking (1,2,3...etc) where one is always better than other, rather there are kind of tiers of competitiveness between the armies. These exist for various reasons, the age of the codex, typical builds, army specific rules, etc. Even then certain builds can land you within different tiers, and are way more competitive than your run-of-the-mill list that goes with that army.

The Auto Win Button Tier 0 - Mech Guard =P

Top Tier 1 - Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights

Middle Tier 2 - Black Templars, Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Dark Angels (Deathwing)
Middle Tier 3 - Dark Angels, Witch Hunters, Chaos Demons

Bottom Tier 4 - Tau, Necrons


Mech Guard has a bad reputation for being the auto win button of 40k - put the models on the table, never move them and shoot, enemy models disappear, put your models away. Obviously any book written for the 5th edition is pretty competitive, with the possible exception of Orks, Tyranids, and Demons. Most Ork builds lack the necessary anti-tank to deal with the large amount of mech running around out there. Tyranids were made too balanced, the monstrous creatures weren't made as tough as they need to be and a lot of the middle sized bugs are simply worthless. Demons are random, theres a lot of stuff out there that can seriously mess with demons, and they have a hard time with mech. Tau can't keep out of close combat and so they die, and Necrons have phase out to deal with as well. Older marines just aren't as good as newer marines, in CC or anything, and the stuff they are better at isn't necessarily because they are better but because their pricing is broken.

Anyway I hope this helps

[thecactusman17]

As 4chan might put it:

"God Tier"
Guard Parking Lot
(Ticks off just about every option in the "rules abuse" sheet of your codex legal 40k army. Complex units, ridiculously good options in every force slot, and rolls more dice in their own phase than anybody else)

"Great Tier"
Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (most other varients), Blood Angels, Dark Eldar
(Hallmarks of 5th edition design: excellent options in all areas of each codex, with one or two super-units apiece.)


"Good Tier"
Space Marines, Witch Hunters, Orks, Chaos Marines, Tyranids
(These are all solid armies but maybe they have lagged behind a bit what with the advancement in game rules and codex designs since they were originally released. Each is capable of laying the smack down on an enemy with some good rolling.)

"OK Tier"
Older Space Marine books (DA, BT), Eldar
(Generally, books that havef been superceded but which are still carrying some vestiges of greatness. They aren't bad per se, they are just a little out of date and show it. each has maybe one really good list, but no amazing ones)

"Crap Tier"
Tau, Necrons, Chaos Daemons
(Each of these has either a major fault (CD, NEC), or is just buried under major advancements by the other codexes (Tau). In all fairness, each can do well on the table, but a really good 5th edition codex like Space Wolves or Imperial Guard will tend to just mop the floor with these guys on everything but a player skill level.)

Unknown: Grey Knights. OK, these guys are probably going to end up in the Great Tier eventually, but frankly there just isn't enough tabletop experience to declare them winners or losers just yet. We have some seriously powerful rules interpretations that allow for a ridiculous level of Alpha Strike capability. We NEED to see a ruling before we declare this official.

aaaaaaand I'm drunk.

Oh, YEAH!

[DarkLink]

Only noobz and whiners think there's a god tier.

[eagleboy7259]

Only noobz and whiners think there's a god tier.

Only those who play mech guard believe there isn't.

[dethangel]

with the requirements you set the IG mech army is the best for you. sit back and blow the crap out of your enemy. after a few games your friend will not want to play you anymore though.:D its that effective.

[Mr.Pickelz]

foot guard lists and foot eldar lists are still pretty powerful, Tau gun-lines also offer the sledgehammer of the shooting phase. Those will give you the ability to out shoot your opponent, They do however have Glaring weaknesses so be careful when selecting one of those. i tried to make a foot guard army work, now i'm sellin it on ebay. :(

[scadugenga]

Only those who play mech guard believe there isn't.

He plays DH (soon to be GK)...

And I"m also of the mind that there is no god tier, and frankly, if you haven't figured out how to beat the "leafblower" yet, you need to update with the times.

[Iceman]

I'm with DarkLink. Mechanized guard is pretty tough, but when you factor in the low rear armor and their BS of 3 they are not the auto-win people say they are. Pretty much any weapon with a S8 or S9 will make short work of the armor 12 vehicles (the majority of the Guard choices since many of them are based on the Chimera hull and Valkyries/Vendettas are also 12), and that doesn't count melta weapons. Melta weapons as well as assault troops make short work of the Leman Russ variants.

I would eliminate the God tier and put them in Great tier.

To the original poster's question, I agree that it is tough to beat Guard for having great heavy support choices. It is kind of a brute force army wether you go with foot or mech (I have played with both and won and lost with both).

[Archduke]

I'm with DarkLink. Mechanized guard is pretty tough, but when you factor in the low rear armor and their BS of 3 they are not the auto-win people say they are. Pretty much any weapon with a S8 or S9 will make short work of the armor 12 vehicles (the majority of the Guard choices since many of them are based on the Chimera hull and Valkyries/Vendettas are also 12), and that doesn't count melta weapons. Melta weapons as well as assault troops make short work of the Leman Russ variants.

I would eliminate the God tier and put them in Great tier.

To the original poster's question, I agree that it is tough to beat Guard for having great heavy support choices. It is kind of a brute force army wether you go with foot or mech (I have played with both and won and lost with both).

Most mech guard tend to be vet heavy so we are talking BS4 not 3, well atleast my mech guard is vet heavy

[Skragger]

I don't know why people say Orks cant handle tank bustin. We have tons of tank breaking options.

For 150 points, you can take 10 str 8, ap 2 (or 3, dont have codex on me), Assault 1 Rokkit Launchas. Even with BS 2 you're still going to hit something each round. Put them in a 'Wagon for extra fun.

Basic Boy Squadz become tank killers when you add in a Nob with a Klaw (12 boyz + trukk = cheap and fast tank hitting). Or for extra giggles (and points allowing) a Nob Skwad with Klaws.

Deff Koptaz are great at tank busting too, usually hitting side armour on turn 1.

Lootas eat light tanks, Dreads and Kans rip em in CC, and not to mention Nob bikerz!

I've got a buddy who loves IG armour, and I stomp the tanks almost every game. :D

And the Dread I have I nicknamed "Da Can Opener" - 3 close combat weapons + rokkit Launcha

[DarkLink]

To beat mechguard, all you need to do is survive 1 round of shooting before you can get in their lines and gain fire superiority. It's true that under the right circumstances a good mechguard army can cripply nearly any other army in the game in 1-2 rounds of shooting, but that requires the right circumstances, and it absolutely requires first turn to do it reliably.

If you get first against guard, your list should have enough long range firepower to shake at least some of his long range shooting (vendettas and artillery). Everything else charges forward, sticking to cover or blowing smoke. Survive that next round of shooting, and it's downhill from there. You're close enough to put pressure on him, and even assault him once you start blowing up chimeras, you can start getting shots in side armor, and you can use your full anti-tank firepower to shake/stun his vehicles. Stay close enough to keep the pressure up, but in a position where he can't jump all his melta/plasma vets out and kill half your army in one go, and you'll eat your way through his army one bit at a time.

It's true this isn't necessarily easy. But mechguard is only "God tier" if they have first turn and their dice are on fire, but that's true of most any high level list. All things being equal, they're just a high level competitive list, that any other competitive list can beat.


The trick is being aggressive. First time I played mech guard, I expected to lose (Daemonhunters aren't exactly competitive). So when I got first turn, I just rammed my army down his throat, slowing down only to machine spirit lascannons at vendettas or his artillery units. He surrendered turn 4, because he hadn't been able to kill my Land Raiders in the first turn and after that I never gave him the chance to kill them again.

[AngelsofDeath]

I started playing 40K as a marine player about 12 years ago. Have went through every army except for Eldar and Daemons. And after painting, playing and then selling all the armies I am back to marines, Blood Angels but still marines. I have not found another army that can both dish out the pain and still be as resilient as Space Marines in general. So instead of looking for a new army I have decided to build pretty much an entire company. I have at least one of each unit choice in the book and the army is growing and being painted slowly. It has sated my hunger to buy another army and it gives me the flexibility to run many different army lists and have fun with what I like best.

[w7west]

Trick to enjoying the game of 40k and having fun with YOUR OWN army design:

Pretend IG does not exist. Refer to all who would challenge your views as flames of war nerds.

... that or play dark eldar and embarrass his autowin derpderp strategy with a ****load of haywire grenades.

[Whoop!]

I'd suggest something with a little different flavor. After playing the Ultramarines I would have to say go ork. Why the hell not? You already have the ultimate SOLDIER force, why not move to a WARRIOR theme? Orks are everything the Ultramarines are not. Orks are the dirty to the Utramarine's clean. Definitely a different painting style, alot muddier and bloodier. Definitely a different playing style, orks don't know what precision means!

[Hellstorm]

It can't necessarily be thought of that all armies have a competitive ranking (1,2,3...etc) where one is always better than other, rather there are kind of tiers of competitiveness between the armies. These exist for various reasons, the age of the codex, typical builds, army specific rules, etc. Even then certain builds can land you within different tiers, and are way more competitive than your run-of-the-mill list that goes with that army.

i read these kind of threads and every time i wonder where people come up with their tier systems. we recently had a tournament in our area and here is the top 8 in order:

tyranids
chaos space marines
orks
deamons
raven guard
imperial guard
deamonhunters (yeah that's me)
space wolves

as for choosing an army, my suggestion in find one that looks cool and the rules fit your style of play. good luck :D

[blackarmchair]

I have read so many people's "top lists" and almost every one of them is different in a major way from the others.

The fact of the matter is that the book doesn't mean as much as the player. IG is NOT an auto-win, not by a long shot neither are Space Wolves nor Blood Angels as so many people seem to believe. More often than not people believe that whatever army the top players in their local area like to be the "top tier."

Now - that being said - the newer the book the more VARIETY you can get out of it because all of its units are designed for 5th edition play. That is not to say - however - that old books aren't viable (just maybe not competitive at professional tournament level). Fod God's sake I've seen Necron beat IG and I've lost to Tyranids as Space Wolves.

To answer OP's question, play whatever army makes sense to you. Get an idea of what playstyles are out there and whichever one seems intuitive and fun to you, play that one.

[Kawauso]

Really, I think all the 5th Edition books are quite balanced with each other.

Yes, there are units here and there that are underpriced (Vendettas, Long Fangs), but they don't break anything wide open, especially against other 5th armies.

I don't think the game is that balanced when you start looking at books from older editions, but that's what happens with this sort of thing. Still, Eldar do just fine in 5th, in my experience, and Tau and Sisters can be quite effective in the hands of skills players. I can't really speak for Orks, BT or DA as I have no experience playing against them. From what I understand, though, the Ork codex isn't that bad either. And BT and DA just got an updated FAQ that made them a lot more useful.

Necrons are by far the worst-off (I should know, they're my first army), but you know what? They can still win against 5th armies, or at least do well. It's a -lot- harder than it ought to be, sure, but it can be done. Don't get me wrong though, Necrons are handicapped in 5th and need an update.

It's kind of irritating seeing people whine all the time about certain armies being 'overpowered'. Take a good look at all the 5th books. They're all on pretty equal footing. This whole tier thing is kind of ridiculous.
I've played 3 games with my vanilla Marines against the new GK book so far. Guess what? I did pretty damn well; only one game was close (I won all 3 though). Even though many people regard vanilla Marines as inferior to the shinier ones that have come out more recently.

Now, there are armies that are more and less forgiving, for sure. Marine armies, by nature of how resilient in general Marines are, are more forgiving than, say, Tyranids. But I don't think that sets them on separate 'tiers' or makes one better or worse than the other. It means that their play styles and the tactics they need to employ are different - which is something that this game needs.

The only time I'd say that a codex has a huge impact on how a game is going to play out is if it's -really- out of date. Necrons are really the only ones that can lay fair claim to that, currently. 4th ed. armies really don't seem that bad off. Yes there are stale, 'old-feeling' books (CSM, Sisters), but they can still do alright against the current edition's books with a capable general leading them.

At the end of the day what it boils down to is people's list-building and tactical skills.

Just my 2 cents.

[Demonus]

At the end of the day what it boils down to is people's list-building and tactical skills.



This pretty much sums it up. I play Space Wolves, Vulkan Marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar and Necrons (craiglsit discount army for the win!) and I have beaten everything except Chaos Daemons an Orks (no one in our group plays them).

Ive tabled IG armies in turn 4 with my Necrons. Last game I had the 10 tank having IG player quit in turn 4 with Logan Grimnar and 2 drop Pods full of "blow the **** out the baddest tanks standing" wolfguard/long fangs.

Ive seen funny themed Chaos lists beat at least on paper superior Blood Angels or Eldar. I saw a Hive Tyrant roll four 1s on his saves and die in turn 1 to a trio of Scatter Laser War Walkers.

Sometimes its a bad player. Sometimes its bad rolls. Most times, the armies stack up pretty well to each other.

To the OP, I suggest Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Orks. All three are different, but are good smash mouth armies. You will win some, you will lose some. In the end, as long as you have fun, who cares if you win or lose?

[freddieyu]

Really, I think all the 5th Edition books are quite balanced with each other.

Yes, there are units here and there that are underpriced (Vendettas, Long Fangs), but they don't break anything wide open, especially against other 5th armies.

I don't think the game is that balanced when you start looking at books from older editions, but that's what happens with this sort of thing. Still, Eldar do just fine in 5th, in my experience, and Tau and Sisters can be quite effective in the hands of skills players. I can't really speak for Orks, BT or DA as I have no experience playing against them. From what I understand, though, the Ork codex isn't that bad either. And BT and DA just got an updated FAQ that made them a lot more useful.

Necrons are by far the worst-off (I should know, they're my first army), but you know what? They can still win against 5th armies, or at least do well. It's a -lot- harder than it ought to be, sure, but it can be done. Don't get me wrong though, Necrons are handicapped in 5th and need an update.

It's kind of irritating seeing people whine all the time about certain armies being 'overpowered'. Take a good look at all the 5th books. They're all on pretty equal footing. This whole tier thing is kind of ridiculous.
I've played 3 games with my vanilla Marines against the new GK book so far. Guess what? I did pretty damn well; only one game was close (I won all 3 though). Even though many people regard vanilla Marines as inferior to the shinier ones that have come out more recently.

Now, there are armies that are more and less forgiving, for sure. Marine armies, by nature of how resilient in general Marines are, are more forgiving than, say, Tyranids. But I don't think that sets them on separate 'tiers' or makes one better or worse than the other. It means that their play styles and the tactics they need to employ are different - which is something that this game needs.

The only time I'd say that a codex has a huge impact on how a game is going to play out is if it's -really- out of date. Necrons are really the only ones that can lay fair claim to that, currently. 4th ed. armies really don't seem that bad off. Yes there are stale, 'old-feeling' books (CSM, Sisters), but they can still do alright against the current edition's books with a capable general leading them.

At the end of the day what it boils down to is people's list-building and tactical skills.

Just my 2 cents.

Absolutely true...I have a sister of battle army, and "divine guidance" can still ruin anyone's day..and exorcists are really really good....so played properly a sisters army can still compete...

Orks are still a very competitive dex, and so are CSM. Eldar is finding it more difficult, but they are still specialists so if you use the units to their strengths they can also win too.

[bdix]

Any army is good if you play it correctly. I've won several tournaments with Tau, and have seen a friend man handle people with Necrons. Also, I'd say Dark Angels are pretty solid with the new FAQ.