drop pod doors. hull or decoration

[Turgon]

hey everybody,


Played a game last night (csm & sw vs da & eldar) when we had an incident where some oblits DS scattered onto the open door of a drop pod. Naturally this resulted in a discusion if the doors counted as landing on a model or not. When two players declined to give an opinion the oblits stayed in play.

Has this kind of situation been addressed in the rules and am I just not finding it, and what is the communities opinion of such a thing?

[Theolanthilis]

IMHO, if you can deploy your model on it I don't think it should be called Hull. Just my 2 cents. But as far as we could find there was no specific rules on it. ANd just for Clarification, the model was a SW model, so it was friendly.

[Skragger]

Very good question!

Generally with my gaming group, we tend to play using logic (sometimes, something that is missing from this game...) For a situation like this, we look at it this way:

If he lands on something like an open drop pod hatch we'd let it slide, because he isn't materializing half way through the hatch, but more likely ontop of it. If he was halfway through it, we'd have some serious questions for Scotty. Now if they landed on the Pod itself, its another story because its a much larger object, and its very possible to teleport into it and get gibbed.

We had a game where some Flayed Ones deep striked and drifted onto the base of a Valkyrie. We figured since the 'cron's fluff said that they tunnel, it wouldn't be a gibbing because they came up under the vehicle. Were it Storm Boyz, who fly in, then we'd say its a gibbing because they splatted against the windscreen.

Rules as written says: dead
Rules as most people would look at it (except rules lawyers): alive

Hope that helps!

[Lerra]

The doors are not part of the hull. Enemy and friendly models can both walk over them, and it would not cause a deep strike mishap.

Also, when you are deploying out of a drop pod, your models have to be within 2" of the hull, not 2" of the doors.

[Turgon]

So, because the embarked units walk out on them they don't count as part of the vehicle? That is rediculous.

pg 56 of the rulebook, under the heading Vehicles & Measuring Distance, says "Instead, for distances involving a
vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)."

All of the things it says to ignore have fairly small affect on the footprint of a model. The doors of a drop pod more than double the footprint of the model. There is simply no way they can, rationally, be considered 'decorative elements.'

If they're not decorative then they must be part of the hull. Thus scattering onto one counts as landing ON a model. Friendly or otherwise that is a deep strike mishap.

[Culven]

Most players will treat them as decorative, measuring from the hull of the Drop Pod when needed for measuring range, deploying the Embarked unit, and so on.

If one wishes to count the opened doors as the Hull, then this should be carried through all rules consistantly. This means that when the Drop Pod enters play, it will need to fit in a space defined by the opened doors, the player can use the doors to measure disembark distance (assuming that the Drop Pod even managed to fit on the table), no models may be placed on the open doors, and range to the Drop Pod can be measured to the doors.

After a game ot two like this, most players tend to change their minds and only count the hull of the Drop Pod, ignoring the Doors as they really are only Decorative elements.

[Wildeybeast]

Turgon, sometimes you have to use common sense. The rules you have quoted are clearly meant to mean non-essential parts of the vehicle whose destruction will have no noticeable effect, not the 'footprint' of the model which is something you have just made up for yourself. A dozer blade clearly affects the footprint of a model, so your point makes no sense.

Think logically about it. Will shooting an open ramp on a drop pod cause it to suddenly explode? No. Will it have any noticeable impact on the functioning of the vehicle? No. Can models on foot move over it without any impediment? Yes. So why would DS onto it suddenly cause a mishap?

This issue came up for me in a recent game, where my opponent wanted to move his bike sqaud over the doors. We came to the conclusion that since foot models could move over them without penalty and they provided nothing in the way of cover, it made sense to say that vehicles could move over them in a similar fashion. They are in effect just like a slight rise in the ground. Skragger seems to have a good idea on this.

Ultimately there is no hard and fast rule on this, so you will have to consult your opponent/game group/GW store/ tourney organiser. It depends how strict you want to be in your interpretation of the rules.

[Wildeybeast]

Another thought occurs, for those who want to be real rules facists about this. The doors are purely decorative, since there is nothing in the rules that says you actually have to physically open them. They are just like the non-opening doors on a rhino, you simply deploy within 2 inches of any point as the vehicle counts as open-topped the instant it lands, thus they have no practical effect in game terms.

[AngelsofDeath]

I know there have been issues that have come up because of people fielding Drop Pods with the doors glued shut and people claiming line of sight issue as far as shooting etc... But when the D.P. lands the fluff talks about how these pods almost really crash into the ground and blow the hatches.They are not the lunar lander touching down on the moon.
But this should just be a point handled by the players, stated at the begining of the game that the doors will be counting as part of the model. But then you need to ask the question of when the doors are down and another unit moves over them will they be difficult terrain?

[Skragger]

So, because the embarked units walk out on them they don't count as part of the vehicle? That is rediculous.

pg 56 of the rulebook, under the heading Vehicles & Measuring Distance, says "Instead, for distances involving a
vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)."

All of the things it says to ignore have fairly small affect on the footprint of a model. The doors of a drop pod more than double the footprint of the model. There is simply no way they can, rationally, be considered 'decorative elements.'

If they're not decorative then they must be part of the hull. Thus scattering onto one counts as landing ON a model. Friendly or otherwise that is a deep strike mishap.


Emperor forbid we should glue our drop pod doors shut.. oh noes! The models can't get out! Augh! Look out! The Rhinos are glued shut too! The entire army is trapped! Flee! FLEE!

[Lemt]

Emperor forbid we should glue our drop pod doors shut.. oh noes! The models can't get out! Augh! Look out! The Rhinos are glued shut too! The entire army is trapped! Flee! FLEE!

You can't flee. The doors are glued shut.

I go with the door!=hull interpretation.

[FTE-Charge!!!]

Consider this- how would you feel about a SM player opening the doors, and measuring the disembark from the far edge of the Pod door? Its crazy, and not right in any way, shape, or form.

Thus the argument for the deep strike onto door being a mishap would have to follow similar logic to the above sentence. Which, again, just doesnt work.

Use the hull, it will save you both a headache.

[Vaktathi]

If you consider drop pod doors part of the hull, then you must also use the doors for the footprint when Deep Striking the pods, making it much harder to get into position and much more likely to scatter off the board, as well as making it much easier for enemies to destroy the drop pod.

Honestly, most people don't consider the doors part of the hull. The few that do only consider it part of the hull when it benefits them.

[Skragger]

You can't flee. The doors are glued shut.

I go with the door!=hull interpretation.

Oh No! The treads are just solid blocks of plastic! We cant even drive away! Noooo!

[AngelsofDeath]

Emperor forbid we should glue our drop pod doors shut.. oh noes! The models can't get out! Augh! Look out! The Rhinos are glued shut too! The entire army is trapped! Flee! FLEE!

Ok. Doors shut or open on Drop Pods for the sake of the deployment is moot, the doors open and stay open. Sorry if people model like 5 year olds and cant read or follow the instructions.The Drop Pod does not close its doors again and is in fact immobile after it lands. As far as Rhinos, Land Raiders and other armored transports that carry troops inside we assume that they open the doors to let the troops out then close them again to remain a sealed tank.

[Skragger]

Ok. Doors shut or open on Drop Pods for the sake of the deployment is moot, the doors open and stay open. Sorry if people model like 5 year olds and cant read or follow the instructions.The Drop Pod does not close its doors again and is in fact immobile after it lands. As far as Rhinos, Land Raiders and other armored transports that carry troops inside we assume that they open the doors to let the troops out then close them again to remain a sealed tank.

Oh come now, it was just a joke about the silliness of saying the doors are part of the footprint. They shoud just make them open topped and tell everyone inside to hold their breath on the way down, that would solve the entire debate! :D

[Turgon]

Turgon, sometimes you have to use common sense. The rules you have quoted are clearly meant to mean non-essential parts of the vehicle whose destruction will have no noticeable effect, not the 'footprint' of the model which is something you have just made up for yourself. A dozer blade clearly affects the footprint of a model, so your point makes no sense.

A dozer blade increases the length of the model 1/2 and inch or so. It's negligable, the same can be said for gun barrels, antenna, etc. The doors of a drop pod about double the area the model takes up. That is in no way the same thing.


] Think logically about it. Will shooting an open ramp on a drop pod cause it to suddenly explode? No. Will it have any noticeable impact on the functioning of the vehicle? No. Can models on foot move over it without any impediment? Yes. So why would DS onto it suddenly cause a mishap?

I would say it falls under the same logic that says if my squad can see 1 guy of your 10 man squad I can affect the 9 guys I can't see. This is 40k, not Starfleet battles or some other more detailed game. There are no damage charts or critical hit systems, etc to explain what happens when a las cannon hits a vehicle.

Given the abstract nature of 40k, I would say that if the open doors is in range then you can inflict damage on the drop pod.

Also, nowhere does it say that models can move over it. I mean if you walk your guys out the ramps when they deploy, that's one thing. It's no different from having models standing on the ramp of a rhion/landraider/etc when they disembark. However, the rules specifically forbid models from reembarking on a drop pod, so the ramps should count as part of any other, non-wreaked vehicle. IE you can't move over them.

[ScrutMaster]

No where does it say models CAN NOT move on or over the ramps. Or that they count as dangerous/ difficult terrain. a half an inch increase in the models size is in no way "negligable" in a game where the measurements of distance is so vastly important to a good sizable portion of the game, every centimeter counts. By your logic turgon the droppod's foot print for table placement of Deep Striking purposes would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to succesfully deep strike ever. The rules state to measure from the distance of the hull for disembarking / re embarking. open doors are not considered part of the hull of a vehicle. The "Hull" is the main body component of the vehicle. The doors are considered an aesthetic part of the model because it does not say anywhere in the rules that you absolutely must keep the doors un-glued or even on the model for that matter. It is just recommended in the instructions. So there for I would have to agree that any unit DSing and having a model land on the drop pod doors does not count as dangerous / difficult terrain and would land as normally as they would on a hill.

[BuFFo]

In my local area, doors are not part of the hull, or model, at all. They are just decorations.

This solves a ton more problems than if they were part of the hull.

Just decide with your gaming group which is best and go with that.

[ScrutMaster]

Also, nowhere does it say that models can move over it. I mean if you walk your guys out the ramps when they deploy, that's one thing. It's no different from having models standing on the ramp of a rhion/landraider/etc when they disembark. However, the rules specifically forbid models from reembarking on a drop pod, so the ramps should count as part of any other, non-wreaked vehicle. IE you can't move over them.

under this logic your own models would be required to take a difficult / dangerous terrain test. Or the doors would be considered impassible terrain which would be completely ridiculous.

[Demonus]

i think if the doors open into a unit, that unit should take d6 str 5 hits.

doors are decoration, and your drop pod is open topped and may be shot through, if you glue your doors shut or not.

[Tynskel]

Am I suffering from dejâ vu?

Maybe I can get wkz to start up the assault thread again.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

I have never seen or heard of a game, whether tounamnet or friendly game, where you consider the doors as more than decoration. If someones argues this otherwise, shake his hand a say "good game and goodbye" and pack your models up. the person doesnt deserve to be played again. come on people does this really need to be debated.

[wkz]

Am I suffering from dejâ vu?

Maybe I can get wkz to start up the assault thread again.
Yes. This.
Perhaps you can see how pigheaded you are and how insane your logic loops can get, if you have an example of that in action right in front of you...


I would say it falls under the same logic that says if my squad can see 1 guy of your 10 man squad I can affect the 9 guys I can't see. This is 40k, not Starfleet battles or some other more detailed game. There are no damage charts or critical hit systems, etc to explain what happens when a las cannon hits a vehicle.

Given the abstract nature of 40k, I would say that if the open doors is in range then you can inflict damage on the drop pod.

Also, nowhere does it say that models can move over it. I mean if you walk your guys out the ramps when they deploy, that's one thing. It's no different from having models standing on the ramp of a rhion/landraider/etc when they disembark. However, the rules specifically forbid models from reembarking on a drop pod, so the ramps should count as part of any other, non-wreaked vehicle. IE you can't move over them.

Wait a...


a) Ok, let us consider your point: Doors = part of droppod and is not scenery. Thus enemy models cannot move on it.

My counter-argument: "Also, nowhere does it say that models can move over it." as you said is wrong. The rules DOES say it somewhere.

The above ruling ("enemy models cannot move on other models") is using one of the most basic and fundamental rules of the rulebook, which says: Models are IMPASSABLE TERRAIN to other models. And where this rule is described, it also specifically says "friendly models" are included when describing which models are counted as impassable terrain.

If the doors count as a part of the droppod for opposing models, then it also counts as part of the droppod for friendly models. The disembarking Marines should not, will not and can not stand on the doors, as that would be standing on top of the Friendly Model: Droppod Doors aka impassable terrain.

This also applies to Rhinos, Landraiders, Landspeeder Storms, Chimeras, etc... when units disembark. The only unique difference is that for the most part such transports have ramps/access points which does not significantly change the profile of the vehicle (unlike the droppod).


b) Also, if we count the doors as part of the vehicle, we start entering very dicey rules territory (pun FULLY intended). IF droppod door Petals = part of droppod, the ONE major rules abuse I can think of is this:

Open-topped passenger rules = Can disembark from any point of the vehicle.
Petals = part of droppod, you can measure your disembark from the door.
Opening a door = extending droppod "disembark zone" towards/away from the opponent by up to 6"~8", measured from one of the tips of a door petal.

Oh wow. Scary stuff.


c) BUT I see where you're coming from: Door is still attached to Model. Model is still an active and alive model. Door is big. Ergo, Door is part of model, and follow all rules for an existing model.

But when you see points (a) and (b) I'm making above (Remember you CANNOT switch off a rule just because it suits you: all rules are active, all the time), this gets into headache-inducing, RAW vs RAI arguments which can technically last forever.

So basically, IMO we should look at the droppod itself for a bit, and modify it such that the rules can fit into the game without (a) utterly becoming crap, or (b) utterly becoming broken. There are ways people have done so. My way consist of:
- Doors cannot open if something is in the way, and can only open/close during deploying the droppod.
- After opening, the droppod doors are decorative (aka: it becomes terrain), and is not part of the model if opened.
- To represent a new "terrain" appearing, stepping on/off the doors will incur a Difficult Terrain roll.

This allows the droppod to be (a) conforming to fluff (marines come out from the main hull, not flung out from the door petal. Marines can also walk down the ramp of the door petal), (b) conforming to game rules (a model can walk on the petal), and (c) makes sense (its a flat metal piece almost flat on the ground. You most certainly can walk on it, and destroying it wouldn't, shouldn't affect the crunchy electronics where the stormbolter is...)


d) Lastly, thanks to the above, I would disagree with you on: "Given the abstract nature of 40k, I would say that if the open doors is in range then you can inflict damage on the drop pod."

If the doors are NOT part of the model so as to allow movement on top of the doors, then they are NOT part of the model period.


tl;dr: IMO Droppod doors should count only as "decoration", sorta similar to SM's Sergent's backpack flags, antenna on a tank, rocks on a base, etc... and not part of the vehicle itself. Granted, it is a pretty BIG "decoration", but doing so will save us all a LOT of headache in the long run.


PS: there is one other vehicle that I can think of which is affected by this discussion of the rules... anyone glued the Ork Trukk''s boarding ramps such that they can be flipped up and down?

And if you (or anyone you know) have these models, would any sane person say that by flipping the ramp downwards, that it'll grant an additional 4~5" of extended hull for disembark and/or deepstrike denial?

...

"Hey! I successfully deepstruck near your trukk!"
"No you didn't. My Trukk's ladder is in the way"
"But.. but If the ladder was down, you couldn't have squeezed past that gap earlier!"
"So? Its up then. Its down now. And your unit's in the way"
"That... that... You CHEESY b*tard!!" *punch*


PS #2: And before anyone misunderstands, I am not calling you out for being cheesy. I am only saying how (possibly) wrong this thing can get...

[Tynskel]

wow

seriously dude, you need to take a chill pill.

Just because you like to ignore rules and I don't, doesn't mean you need to call me pigheaded, insane, and complain about my logic loops.

[wkz]

wow

seriously dude, you need to take a chill pill.

Just because you like to ignore rules and I don't, doesn't mean you need to call me pigheaded, insane, and complain about my logic loops.

I am NOT derailing another person's thread to suit your ego, so this is my last reply to you here with regards that other thread: GROW UP. YOU'RE so WRONG with those assault rules (by purposely ignoring core rules AND every single explanation by people in that thread in fact) that it's not funny.

Who's pigheaded, insane and ignoring rules again?

[AngelsofDeath]

i think if the doors open into a unit, that unit should take d6 str 5 hits.

doors are decoration, and your drop pod is open topped and may be shot through, if you glue your doors shut or not.

Thats awesome, I like blocking LOS and fire lanes with Drop pods. Might as well crush a few people in the mean time as well when the doors come down. And forget scattering 1in off units, just crush the whole unit like a template weapon.

But for real I understand the point of not making it part of the model and always deploy my units from the actual base of the model and not the doors, as others have pointed out that is an extra 6in to the edge of the doors.

And for the doors being shot through, it has been an issue at times. It says it is open-toped after it deploys, but you have this pretty big model blocking alot of LOS, doors up or down. And I have not found any special rule for shooting through an open-toped vehicle. Case in point is presented...read on.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/08/06/strictly-drama-the-strange-case-of-michael-strange/

[wkz]

...
And for the doors being shot through, it has been an issue at times. It says it is open-toped after it deploys, but you have this pretty big model blocking alot of LOS, doors up or down. And I have not found any special rule for shooting through an open-toped vehicle. Case in point is presented...read on.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/08/06/strictly-drama-the-strange-case-of-michael-strange/

IIRC, the above is caused by the fact the competition in question is using a 3rd party FAQ (INAT FAQ, or Independent National Warhammer 40000 Tournament FAQ, produced by the folks over at DakkaDakka... I think), which says something to the effect of "ALL droppod doors are OPEN even if glued down, and thus can be shot through"... And one guy did not read/forgot a ruling in that FAQ.

Basically, not knowing the rules and FAQs being used for a tournament = fail, I guess.

Only afterwards did GW have an FAQ saying "Use LOS. If your door cannot open, suxs to be you"
Edit: I checked. The sentence in red is wrong, the official FAQ still doesn't say the above :(

[BuFFo]

wow

seriously dude, you need to take a chill pill.

Just because you like to ignore rules and I don't, doesn't mean you need to call me pigheaded, insane, and complain about my logic loops.

I am going to put you in a bowl and cover you in milk because I love fruit loops.

Oh wait... Logic loops? Is that edible?

[Lemt]

I am going to put you in a bowl and cover you in milk because I love fruit loops.

Oh wait... Logic loops? Is that edible?

They probably taste terrible. Or great.

[Tynskel]

I am NOT derailing another person's thread to suit your ego, so this is my last reply to you here with regards that other thread: GROW UP. YOU'RE so WRONG with those assault rules (by purposely ignoring core rules AND every single explanation by people in that thread in fact) that it's not funny.

Who's pigheaded, insane and ignoring rules again?

You are!
You're the one calling names. I remember specifically you stating that you hate people that only use name calling to back up their words, yet you were the one constantly calling me names in that thread!

bwahahhahha!

[Skragger]

PS: there is one other vehicle that I can think of which is affected by this discussion of the rules... anyone glued the Ork Trukk''s boarding ramps such that they can be flipped up and down?

And if you (or anyone you know) have these models, would any sane person say that by flipping the ramp downwards, that it'll grant an additional 4~5" of extended hull for disembark and/or deepstrike denial?

...

"Hey! I successfully deepstruck near your trukk!"
"No you didn't. My Trukk's ladder is in the way"
"But.. but If the ladder was down, you couldn't have squeezed past that gap earlier!"
"So? Its up then. Its down now. And your unit's in the way"
"That... that... You CHEESY b*tard!!" *punch*


PS #2: And before anyone misunderstands, I am not calling you out for being cheesy. I am only saying how (possibly) wrong this thing can get...



Its true.. I routinely lower my trukks side ramps when I tank shock. I also glued more gubbins onto them to increase the size further! I am a tactical genius! FEAR MY GUBBINS! :D

[Morgan Darkstar]

oh noes not again!

i think we should get Tynskel and wkz a ring.

in the words of Harry Hill "FIGHT!!!!!"

[Skragger]

oh noes not again!

i think we should get tynskel and wkz a ring.

in the words of harry hill "FIGHT!!!!!

We'll give them drop pod models and let them throw them at eachother until submission, knockout, or death.

[Morgan Darkstar]

We'll give them drop pod models and let them throw them at eachother until submission, knockout, or death.

Mwahahaha :D

dont forget rolled up copies of the assault rules.

[eldargal]

Its funny, this came up in my group a year or so ago. Someone said my swooping hawks suffered a mishap because they landed within an inch of one of the doors. After I hid the body and washed up the blood, we houseruled that as with shooting, where extraneous parts are not counted as targets, the one inch mishap radius extends only from the hull. Our group then took a vote on it to make an official houserule in the event it popped up again.

The moral of the story is, just roll a dice or take a vote and houserule it because having a hissy fit on the internet about it won't help convince your opponents one way or the other.

[JxKxR]

They probably taste terrible. Or great.

I tried logic once. Didn't care for it.

[Skragger]

I tried logic once. Didn't care for it.

Too stringy?

SHAZAM!

Wait.. I just make a logic pun.. oh man.. I'm such a nerd...

[JxKxR]

Too stringy?

SHAZAM!

Wait.. I just make a logic pun.. oh man.. I'm such a nerd...

Your always good for a chuckle.:D

[Skragger]

Your always good for a chuckle.:D

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only WAR. And Skragger running around making stupid jokes like "BOOM! YOU GOT SERVE-OSKULLED!" and "Is that a hive tyrant or my step mother?! Either way, run for cover!!"

[Jwolf]

The next person I meet that treats drop pod doors as hull will be the first. Arguing from the fluff, the doors wouldn't exist as such after the drop pod deployed; the hinges are there to keep you from losing pieces, but drop pod doors are attached with explosive bolts, not hinges (that would never work on something that is basically a ballistic projectile anyway. Please don't use modelling convenience to gain advantage in a game of toy soldiers.

Also, Tynskel and wkz, take it down a notch or take your interactions to PMs. It's a bit much to expose everyone to your personal emnity for one another.

[Tynskel]

hahahahahh!
w00t! I have been personally addressed by the moderator!

whee!!

[Rapture]

Is it wrong to expect people to act their age?

Or in the least actually be funny when they aren't?

hahahahahaThat isn't funny.