Where are all the good guys?

[Grabula]

So who are the good guys in the 40K universe? Seems to me that the Eldar are pretty much it. I don't know a lot about the Tau so they might fit into this category. However, it just seems that the Eldar are the only race currently just tooling around trying to do their own thing. Sure they occasionally are forced to attack in the defense of their craftworlds or maiden worlds. Otherwise, seems everyone else is sort of on the bad side.

As a caveat to this, anyone find the Space Wolves despicable after reading "The Thousand Sons"? I was never a real fan to begin with but after that book I'd like to see them wiped from the universe fo evuh.

[eldargal]

Well, if you define good as 'not actively trying to destroy the galaxy and/or enslave all other races then Eldar would be good. But if you mean good in the contemporary sense, I think they forfeited that when they directed Waagh! Thraka to Armageddon resulting in tens of billions of deaths. As for the rest, the Imperium and Tau are trying to survive, nothing wrong with that. The Imperium, though, are xenophobic mass murderers and the Tau are insidiously despicable in a subtle, Orwellian way. The Orks are neither good nor bad, they just like krumpkin 'eads.
Chaos and Necrons are downright evil. Tyranids are probably in the category of Orks, I'm not sure they are malicious, just doing what their biology tells them. It all depends how capable of rational thought the Hive Mind is.

[Grabula]

I get the sense that in general the Eldar are forced to do things like steer Ork waaaghs to imperial planets, sort of a proactive defense of a race on the brink. I'm of the opinion that if the eldar knew they would be left to their own devices, they'd choose to leave well enough alone.

Honestly, of them all I think the Imperium is the worst. Since the days of the Great Crusade they've done nothing but lead pogroms' and commit atrocities against other races, supposedly in the defense of the human race. They don't have the excuse of future sight, really, that the Eldar do. Ultimately it's a racist and xenophobically hypocritical society filled with a zeal for destruction of all things not deemed apropriate. I could understand some misunderstanding of the Eldar or Tau. Fighting Orks, Tyranid and Chaos makes sense since all three of those are threats to the survival of the species.

I think it's the Horus Heresy novels that have impressed upon me the despicable nature of the Imperium as a whole. When forces such as the Space Wolves are iconic, penultimate examples of dedication to Imperial beliefs than there is no denying the imperium is as bad as say the forces of Chaos, in my opinion anyway.

I'd agree that Orks and Tyranid are just doing what they are driven to do, that there's no other choice in their nature. Chaos is the most readily identifiable evil, along with Dark Eldar, but one could argue that even Chaos is just essentially a force or forces of nature.

[Fellend]

I get the sense that in general the Eldar are forced to do things like steer Ork waaaghs to imperial planets, sort of a proactive defense of a race on the brink. I'm of the opinion that if the eldar knew they would be left to their own devices, they'd choose to leave well enough alone.

Honestly, of them all I think the Imperium is the worst. Since the days of the Great Crusade they've done nothing but lead pogroms' and commit atrocities against other races, supposedly in the defense of the human race. They don't have the excuse of future sight, really, that the Eldar do. Ultimately it's a racist and xenophobically hypocritical society filled with a zeal for destruction of all things not deemed apropriate. I could understand some misunderstanding of the Eldar or Tau. Fighting Orks, Tyranid and Chaos makes sense since all three of those are threats to the survival of the species.

I think it's the Horus Heresy novels that have impressed upon me the despicable nature of the Imperium as a whole. When forces such as the Space Wolves are iconic, penultimate examples of dedication to Imperial beliefs than there is no denying the imperium is as bad as say the forces of Chaos, in my opinion anyway.

I'd agree that Orks and Tyranid are just doing what they are driven to do, that there's no other choice in their nature. Chaos is the most readily identifiable evil, along with Dark Eldar, but one could argue that even Chaos is just essentially a force or forces of nature.

First of all, you have to define what is evil. Because if you say that Eldar are not evil because they are trying to stay alive, then neither is the Imperium. The Imperium does nothing but try to stay alive, the problem is that the ways to achieve this are varied.
Also Eldar does have the ability to make decisions based on the future, Imagine having permanent hindsight (captain hindsight GOOOO!) The Imperium does not have this luxury, like any normal being they base their decisions on what they know. And what they know is that everyone else is out to get them, defying the will of the Emperor leads to chaos and massdeath and reserching things leads to the dark age of technology, so for the sake of protecting everyone, it's best to kill anything that disagrees with you.

But if you look at it through a pair of modern eyes. Sure they are evil, but I bet you would be as well if everything in the universe is trying to kill you or use your soul as gateway to massmurder

[Wildeybeast]

Tau aren't evil, they are trying to spread peace and enlightenment throughout the whole galaxy. The Greater Good offers peace, mutual respect and admiration for the skills and values of others and the chance to live according to your own values and beliefs so long as you work according to the Greater Good. For example, humans can still worship the emperor if they want. That is why so many humans are volunatarily joining the Greater Good. The Tau only fight other races because they are too stupid to realise this and need to be brought into the Greater Good by force. Unfortunately, there are some races who will always be opposed to the Greater Good (Orks, Chaos, Nids etc) and for the good of the rest of the galaxy, they need to be wiped out.

We also have to remember in this debate that there are thousands of intelligent species throughout the galaxy and that humanity controls only a tiny fraction of it, so there could be plenty of 'good' races out there, but at the end of the day they all have to fight if they want to survive.

[eldargal]

Yes, the Tau are lovely, until you say 'sod off' and they exterminate your populace and steal your planet.:p That what is so insidious about the Tau, its all for the Greater Good, but if you just want to be left alone or make your own choices then they will subjugate you just as brutally as the Imperium. With the possible exception that they may let some of you live, unlike the Imperium.

[Cyberscape7]

Well the Imperium are evil to a certain degree. The guard are basically fighting out of fear of the "xenos threat" imposed by the inquisition. Space Marines in all fairness don't kill EVERY alien that they come across, just the majority. The necrons, evil? The c'tan yes but the actual necrontyr not so much. More insane than anything else (hinted in the BRB). Chaos as a whole are evil. Orks and Nids are more instinctive than anything, just doing what comes naturally. Dark Eldar= supervillains. Nuff said. Tau are communists so that kind of answers itself. Eldar do try to make things better in the universe its just the way they go about it is pretty brutal.
To sum up all races mentioned above are either in the grey or black, no one really "good." The real good guys, funnily enough, are peaceful. I speak of the Exodites, living off the land and not wanting to cause any trouble. Of course all this is just my opinion...

[justsam]

this argument always amuses me. i get why the discussion comes about, but you're trying to impose contemporary morality in a game whose tagline is "in grim darkness of the far future there is ONLY war". that being said, i've always thought that the nids were the least "evil" of any faction. if they'd been pointed at a different galaxy, the imperium wouldn't even know about them. they're just trying to get a decent meal.

[Smotku]

There really is no good vs evil only order and chaos. Trying to preserve your right to survive is certainly on the side of order so the imperium, Tau and the eldar fall there. Seeking nothing but the destruction of others such as Chaos, necorons, Tyrinids and Orks makes them fall into the catagory of chaos.

[jorz192]

The way warhammer was created there are no "good" or "bad" guys really. It's more shades of grey than black and white.

Sometimes I wish there was just one group that you could say was the "good" guys in the warhammer universe but they just don't exist.

I guess the shades of grey is kind of like the real world but still sigh* I have a major migraine right now.

[Kawauso]

Every faction in 40k commits terrible atrocities with alarming frequency. There really is no straight-up 'good' or 'evil'. Well, there are factions that are definitely evil and there are decidedly 'less evil' ones, but you get my point.

Imperium:
They're super xenophobic, racist, fanatical and they commit genocide or kill entire planets in order to achieve their goals. Not great role models. Yes, they will work diplomatically with races like the Eldar or Tau, but only when that would work in their favour. They'd much rather just have the galaxy to themselves.

Eldar:
They're arrogant and racist and will pretty much do the same thing as the Imperium in pursuit of their goals. The only difference is they have less resources at their disposal and will often set up Imperial forces or citizens as a 'fall guy'.

Dark Eldar:
These dudes are bad. Have you heard about them? :D

Tau:
While they aren't xenophobes, and genocide isn't their first choice in resolving conflicts, they're still really racist. Tau are 'first among equals' in their society and they're not above doing things like, say, sterilizing the breeding alien population on one of their worlds if a society is being particularly unruly. And they will destroy planets when they feel they 'have to'. Tau probably have the best PR department of the 'less evil' races, but that's only because they'll stab you in the back, not the face - and only after you say something mean about their Ethereals.

Orks:
Orks are actually pretty neutral, as far as I'm concerned. At least, they fight everyone equally. They still do loads more 'bad' things than 'good', though, I'm sure.

Tyranids:
Also pretty neutral...they're more like a force of nature than a faction. They eat everyone equally. But they will eat -everyone-, given the chance.

Necrons:
These dudes hate you if you're alive, and they want to feed you to their star-gods. They might not kill you outright if you're the Blood Angels and they just exhausted their resources helping you stymie a Tyranid invasion, but that's only because they'd prefer to kill you when they're good and ready. It's not a question of 'if' they will kill you, but 'when'.

Chaos:
See Dark Eldar.
Seriously, these guys have problems.

[Fellend]

Personally I don't see how you can consider the Tau good. As many has pointed out sure they might not exterminate you if they don't have too. They just enslave you instead.

Mass effect 2 Spoiler, in case you want to play the game







I'm reminded of the choice in mass effect 2 where you get to decide the fate of the "evil" race of robots. You can either destroy them all or reprogram them all to believe that you are their savior. With the first being the evil alternative and the second the good one.
It always struck me as a bit of wtf? How is brainwashing and destroying the minds of an entire race considered good. All you are doing is enslaving their free will.

[Skragger]

Its funny.. WHFB has a much bigger line between good and evil. 40K lore, not so much.

As an ork player, and 'uge digester of Orky No-Wots I'd say Orks are definitly neutral, as others have said. We just enjoy a good Kumpin' and thats about it. We have no great overarching philosophy (besides the worship of Gork and Mork). Its just Krumpin' 'cross the ooniverse!

[Necron2.0]

The friend who introduced me to 40K several years ago put it best: "Warhammer 40K is a game of the bad guys versus the evil guys."

Don't look for good guys ... there aren't any.

[JxKxR]

You should read the part about the vespids in the tau codex, specifically the part about the communion helm. There is a hint that the vespids are being mind controlled. They are like America where we say we want to help you and make things better, but we just want your resources and as long as you are dumb enough to help us rape your land and use your bodies as meat shields we are happy to have you with us, but as soon as you reject us you are DOOMED! Most of the Tau don't realize this fact though and do think of them selves as the light of the galaxy bringing in new races to become part of the "mixing pot", but the other races are second to the Tau.
The Tau are just young and not much is known about them so in the fluff we only get propaganda, which is why I think the Tau fluff should only be thought of as pre-fluff. The Tau have real depth into their inner workings and right now we are only seeing the mask that they wear and have only had a few peeks at what is really underneath it all, and I'm sure that could be said about most of the races.

[Necron2.0]

They are like America where we say we want to help you and make things better, but we just want your resources and as long as you are dumb enough to help us rape your land and use your bodies as meat shields we are happy to have you with us, but as soon as you reject us you are DOOMED!

Dude, that's not like us at all. Remember, "Never put down to malicious intent what can easily be explained away as stupidity."

The "problem" (if there is one) with America is there actually is no plan. We have leaders who've proven time and again that their only skill is in reading a teleprompter. All of our leaders are corrupt and in the back pocket of someone. That "someone" is anyone BUT those who voted them into office. Our business leaders are all self-serving egotistical automatons, with no empathy towards anyone other than themselves and no accountability to anyone. "Our" businesses aren't ours anymore, but rather are "multinational entities" (which simply means they get to f*** EVERYONE over). Our news media (more media than news) is an unending stream of blatant lies or half-truths meant more for entertainment than information. Our news personalities are all editorialists with axes to grind (when was the last time you heard a news reporter just report the news - like Walter Cronkite - without adding his/her own f***ing color commentary?). As a result, our people are all misinformed, confused, distracted and conditioned to cry/laugh/rage at whatever crap story some media mogul TELLS them they should cry/laugh/rage at, and (of course) VOTE for whomever they tell them to.

No, if America is doing ill in the world it's not because it is intentional. It is because America as an entity is schizophrenic, with severe relapses every four to eight years (on years wholely divisible by four).

[JxKxR]

Dude, that's not like us at all. Remember, "Never put down to malicious intent what can easily be explained away as stupidity."

The "problem" (if there is one) with America is there actually is no plan. We have leaders who've proven time and again that their only skill is in reading a teleprompter. All of our leaders are corrupt and in the back pocket of someone. That "someone" is anyone BUT those who voted them into office. Our business leaders are all self-serving egotistical automatons, with no empathy towards anyone other than themselves and no accountability to anyone. "Our" businesses aren't ours anymore, but rather are "multinational entities" (which simply means they get to f*** EVERYONE over). Our news media (more media than news) is an unending stream of blatant lies or half-truths meant more for entertainment than information. Our news personalities are all editorialists with axes to grind (when was the last time you heard a news reporter just report the news - like Walter Cronkite - without adding his/her own f***ing color commentary?). As a result, our people are all misinformed, confused, distracted and conditioned to cry/laugh/rage at whatever crap story some media mogul TELLS them they should cry/laugh/rage at, and (of course) VOTE for whomever they tell them to.

No, if America is doing ill in the world it's not because it is intentional. It is because America as an entity is schizophrenic, with severe relapses every four to eight years (on years wholely divisible by four).



I agree with most of what you’re saying, but we have differing views on what is evil.

I think that you have to find out things for your self. I think that if you are just sitting there listening to the media and politicians, being close minded and set in your ways unable to change and refusing any conflicting idea to what you have been taught all along and embracing ignorance is the worst kind of evil. The people who don't find out what they are really voting for and vote straight ticket are ignorant and evil, in my opinion. The ignorant masses are the ones who give the power to the ones with the abilities to talk them into what ever bull crap they want accomplished. Hitler was an evil man, but he couldn't have done it alone. The ignorant gave him power.

Stupidity gives malicous intent wings.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Good guys? In war?!

Seriously?

First of all, you've got to address the issue of what exactly you mean by "good" and "evil" as concepts, which is such a vast subject there are degrees available in it (philosophy and ethics), and I ain't going near that with an 11' dungeon pole.

For me, I'm pretty much a pacifist politically speaking, and I can't actually see that many wars as justifiable. Having read Mark Baker's stomach-churning collection of Vietnam veterans' stories (called simply "'Nam") back when I was 15, I've harboured no illusions about the nature of war as anything other than a place where men try to kill each other for reasons that often barely even seem to make sense to them. The idea of "goodies" and "baddies" in a war strikes me as naive.

Having learned about things like "double veterans" and the Phoenix Program (the idea of an anti-terrorist unit dedicated to fighting a war using terror tactics is an almost laughable piece of moral doublethink), seriously, there are no good guys in wars. Yes, there are individually brave soldiers (I know many. And then there's people like the guy who was drafted, and wanted to serve his country, but was a true pacifist, and so refused to carry a rifle; hethen spent two tours in 'Nam being shot at by enemies, then spit on by his squadmates because he dared to refuse to kill) but "good guys"? In war?

No such things. Just no such thing, IMO. Armies are a mix of the incompetent, the monstrous, the psychopathic, the thuggish, and the professional, with the mix determining how many civilians are left weeping over their dead children at the end.

It's why I like 40K: for all it's grimdarky black comedy, it makes no bones about the fact that the wars fought in the Imperium are largely pointless, and driven by the collective weaknesses, insecurities, and vainglorious egos of those in power, be they human or alien. Kind of like almost every war fought in the real world.

[jorz192]

America as an entity is schizophrenic, with severe relapses every four to eight years (on years wholely divisible by four).



Don't insult schizophrenic people!

[JxKxR]

[QUOTE=MaltonNecromancer;128096]

And then there's people like the guy who was drafted, and wanted to serve his country, but was a true pacifist, and so refused to carry a rifle; hethen spent two tours in 'Nam being shot at by enemies, then spit on by his squadmates because he dared to refuse to kill) but "good guys"? In war?
[QUOTE]


People like to think good and bad are black and white, but they are abstract. I can understand why his squad mates spit on him. They work in a group and his ideals and ignorance of the situation he was in could have cost them their lives. Some people might think he was brave to not carry a gun and some people (like me) would say he is a coward and a traitor to his own side. It depends on your perspective and own reasons that come from your own life experiences. You read a book about ONE war and base your thoughts about war on that ONE, and Vietnam is a bad example of a war for many reasons.
Some wars are fought over for the wrong reasons. Do you think anyone could have peacefully talked Hitler into cutting it out? What about Kim Jong Il? Are the messages of peace getting through to him? Some people can't be reasoned with and while you try to get the insane to hear reason hundreds of innocent people die. When reason fails then you have to be brave enough to put your life on the line and say "No, I will not let you do as you please! I will not let you do what you want when it means the suffering of others! If it means my death then so be it, but I will not sit by and let injustice run wild!"
We all have are own set of morals. It’s what makes us, us.

[gcsmith]

TBH i think of the tau as good,They wish to unite the world, and to be fair about their cleansing of some races, the humans have hardly been co-operative with them :).

I know that thing about the vespid, but remeber codexi are written in view of imperials, and I find it hard to believe that A) the tau would do that wen designed by the eldar. And B) that all the vespids would just follow along if it was mind control of 1 guy.

Remember their was a relationship that the tau and vespid had before the helmets went on.

[Necron2.0]

Hitler was an evil man, but he couldn't have done it alone.

The thing that makes Hilter truly scary is that he was not actually evil - he personally was not. His regime was evil, but he was just a product of his time. I say that makes him scarier than if he actually were evil, because it means we will be seeing someone like him again someday.


TBH i think of the tau as good,They wish to unite the world ... ... whether the world wants it or not.

The Tau are space-communists. You WILL be converted to their way of thinking, or else YOU WILL DIE!!

[L192837465]

The Tau are space-communists. You WILL be converted to their way of thinking, or else YOU WILL DIE!!



In soviet future, war wages you!

[Kawauso]

... whether the world wants it or not.

The Tau are space-communists. You WILL be converted to their way of thinking, or else YOU WILL DIE!!



Yeah. They're patient and willing to try diplomacy and trade and all that good stuff - but it only goes so long before they say "**** it" and subjugate you through strength of arms. You don't see Tau trying to convert greenskins to the Greater Good any more, after all.

Also, gcsmith, while it's possible that much of the fluff in the Tau book is from an Imperial perspective, the mind-control helm thing seems...pretty accurate. All of the Vespid leaders wear 'communion helms'. And they're insectoid, so who's to say that the lower-class Vespid have any choice in whether or not to obey their leaders? It could be some pheromone thing that makes it impossible for them to go against their strain leaders, like ants or bees.

And remember, in DOW Dark Crusade, if the Tau win their campaign, they sterilize the human population of the planet that's being fought over, so that the human population dwindles and becomes more manageable.

Like I said, the Tau have good PR and a pretty public face, but I don't think they're any nicer than anyone else in 40k, really. ;)

[MaltonNecromancer]

Vietnam is a bad example of a war for many reasons.

I've always thought of it as the perfect example of a war. People fought and died, nothing positive was accomplished. It was unambiguously horrific.

World War 2 seems to be the "Good" war everyone wants war to be - the Heroic Allies vs the unambiguously Evil Axis. And let's be fair, the Axis were unambiguously evil. They were the most pernicious, vile scum to ever crawl the Earth.

But WW2 is the exception. The rest show you war's true face. World War 1? A four year atrocity that killed millions for no good reason at all. The 'Nam? Ten years of horror with no benefits to anyone. Korea? More of the same. It just goes on and on and on and on. Horrors are committed, women are raped, children are killed, and those who take part have to make some sense out of it, because otherwise it means nothing, and they can't have it mean nothing. Because that would mean that all that death and pain and misery was pointless.

Well, all that death and misery and pain was pointless.

"Good" wars like WW2 are used as flags to suck the next generation of hopelessly idealistic boys and girls into getting themselves mutilated, killed, or psychologically scarred for life. I can see why you say


They work in a group and his ideals and ignorance of the situation he was in could have cost them their lives. Some people might think he was brave to not carry a gun and some people (like me) would say he is a coward and a traitor to his own side

Just to clarify things for you: he operated as a medic. He was a doctor, and had sworn his oath "First Do No Harm", and he wouldn't break that promise for anyone, not even Uncle Sam. He worked behind the lines, never on Search and Destroy missions or other kinds, because they knew his refusal to carry a gun would put others' lives at risk.

My personal experiences of war have been limited. I've spoken to my friend John about his time in Belfast at the height of The Troubles. The day his friend fell down with a small neat hole in his chest where the sniper round went in. John had no idea that his friend's chest had been pulped, and so tried his best to save a man who was already dead. The local children came round to cheer the death of another English soldier. He also killed more than a few IRA terrorists, though he refused to speak about it. John spent the next twenty years as an alcoholic. I knew him after he was sober. He'd become an antiques dealer, and was doing well. He would always leave the room facing the floor stony faced whenever I used to play Quake 2 on my PS1, so I stopped playing it when he was around.

I taught poetry to Liam. He was a pretty silly kid, but he was friendly, and funny. He had always been in trouble with other teachers, but he was fine with me; I've no idea why. He's dead now, all the poetry I taught him spattered over the Iraq sands. IED. He was 22; the 300th or so UK soldier to be killed. I taught him poems and laughed at his jokes and he's dead and there's not a single reason good enough for that. Not one single reason.

My mate Chris, telling me on Christmas Eve about how he can't sleep because he remembers the way the man he killed's head cam apart as he looked down the shiny new Zeiss scope he'd had fitted to his SA80. They were pinned down during a riot, and Chris had to deal with it because he was the best shot. It was Christmas Eve and Chris just looked at me with pain the kind I had never seen before, and talked about how his brother called him "Killer" now and Chris laughed along, but he didn't actually think it was funny, because he took everything from that man and others like him and he couldn't give it back. He'd done his duty, but he wasn't sure if duty was enough of a reason.

I could go on. I really could.

I like soldiers. They're often some of the most decent, honest, strong, hard working men you'll ever meet. But good guys? They're just guys doing a horrific job, and it's not right or fair.

I don't base my viewpoint on a single book. It's the book that shaped my opinion, but it's not the reason I'm a pacifist. I'm a pacifist because I look across my class of year 11 boys and girls, and I know at least five of them are enlisting, and that means they're going to see war. They're going to kill; they're going to be changed, and not for the better by that singularly horrendous act.

I base my opinion on the fact that boys and girls I've watched grow and bloom from goofy 11 year olds into funny, charming adults are going to go to a foreign country and do the most appalling things to people, and it's going to break them like it's broken every one of my service personnel friends. Yes, life goes on. Yes, you get past it. Yes, you get over it. But they shouldn't have to go through it.

There are no good guys or bad guys. Just survivors.

[Necron2.0]

World War 2 seems to be the "Good" war everyone wants war to be - the Heroic Allies vs the unambiguously Evil Axis. And let's be fair, the Axis were unambiguously evil. They were the most pernicious, vile scum to ever crawl the Earth ...

... with the possible exception of the Allies. ;) The Germans were responsible for killing 21 million people. The Japanese killed roughly 10 million people. By contrast the Russians alone slaughtered 62 million people. Mao's rise to power in China came at the price of 54 million dead.

As for the numbers killed in Iraq, in one year 4 times as many people die in the US due to domestic violence as soldiers have died in the entire 8 years of conflict. In other words, for every dead soldier in wartime in Iraq, 32 civilians have died in similarly violent circumstances in "peacetime." Heck, for myself, before I'd turned twenty, my teacher had been killed in an avalanche, my best friend fell off a cliff, two friends had shot themselves, and one was killed by her ex- boyfriend. I'd also lost a couple other friends to more-or-less natural causes. I've lost a lot more friends since then. Death, sad to say, is inevitable.

Now, don't get my wrong - I'm not advocating war. I think war is terrible. It's also a terribly entertaining game ... the reason we're all here in the first place, n'est-ce pas?

[Duke]

We've gone a bit off topic... Thread moved to oubliette please still be careful when covering this topic.

Duke

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

the Tau are insidiously despicable in a subtle, Orwellian way.

That's what I love about them. A great observation. I recommend everyone read the Tau section of the Deathwatch RPG, as it really shows just how disturbing the Tau are.