In Relation to REAL Armies...

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

I've heard of the most obvious. The Black templars referred to as the acient crusaders, or the first riech,( However you want to say it) and the Eldar as the Holy Roman Empire, or the Tau as the Turks...

But how does the BOLS community feel about the possible relations to early history army relations to their respective army choices? Does anyone with historical knowledge feel any relations? Just curious!

[Denzark]

I'll give you Black Templars as crusaders, it is quite obvious. I have never heard of the other comparisons you mention, neither would I agree with them.

I give you IG WWII Russians (massed wave infantry, tanks, arty).


Other than that it is all subjective and rather obvious a la SW/vikings.

[eldargal]

I'm fairly well versed in Holy Roman Imperial history and I honestly don't see any kind of similarities with the Eldar. In fact I think its far too difficult to find real world analogies for 40k. You can just about manage it with WFB (Empire=HRE, Bretonnia=Frogcais, High Elves= Britain, Lizardmen=Mesoamerica, Dwarfs=Mythic Scandinavia, etcetera) but the aesthetics and cultures have been altered too much in 40k. You can manage it with some of the IG though. Cadians=modern militaries, Praetorians=Victorian Britain, Vostroyans=Russians, DKOK=WWII Germans, Valhallans=MidEast etcetera

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

I'm fairly well versed in Holy Roman Imperial history and I honestly don't see any kind of similarities with the Eldar. In fact I think its far too difficult to find real world analogies for 40k. You can just about manage it with WFB (Empire=HRE, Bretonnia=Frogcais, High Elves= Britain, Lizardmen=Mesoamerica, Dwarfs=Mythic Scandinavia, etcetera) but the aesthetics and cultures have been altered too much in 40k. You can manage it with some of the IG though. Cadians=modern militaries, Praetorians=Victorian Britain, Vostroyans=Russians, DKOK=WWII Germans, Valhallans=MidEast etcetera

You, miss, have embodied and dismissed the similarities within each army I've thought of. The Holy Roman Empire, Once expanding bodies of land and continually (through catholicism) dominating land masses has a great hold on the world/40k universe has waned in recent years. There was in both universes, a great fall; into which both 'armies' have both taken a back seat to being the forerunner by far. Diversity has sprung forth in so many ways that both the HRE and the Eldar are now Dwarfed from what they used to be.

[eldargal]

The problem is the HRE was never an 'empire' in the same sense the Eldar were, and the HRE was a feudal government before the fall and ceased to be feudal after whereas the Eldar became feudal after the fall. The fall of the HRE was brought about by foreign invasion that of the Eldar by internal rot. Hm now I've written it that way I see more of a parallel between Eldar and Rome.

Oh and a friend of mine says the Tau Empire is analogous to the Swiss Confederation, and I think he is right. Too smll but too powerful to be worth crushing. Orks are analogous to Glasgow...

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Point! However, I was curious about similarities, as opposed to dissimilarities from the armies! As I've just brought up in your post in the oubilette, your attentiveness to the lack of details. I've heard only a few arguments to what these individual people think of their armies, while I am trying to understand outside thoughts! I do understand your arguments, but I think that they do somewhat distract from the topic.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Orks are analogous to Glasgow...

You should see the mess they make when they come down to Newcastle for the night life! :eek:

[eldargal]

Ah but that is the problem for me, there are always going to be some similarities, any Empire that has fallen is going to have similarities with the Eldar, for example. You could argue England in the middle ages is analogous with the Tau, a small country fighting off much bigger, wealthier competitors and so forth. As I said with WFB there are clear historical archetypes, with 40k its just a mishmash of whatever seemed cool at the time.:) Based on a few similarities you could argue that the Eldar are based on Rome, Athens, Britain, Sparta etcetera.


Point! However, I was curious about similarities, as opposed to dissimilarities from the armies! As I've just brought up in your post in the oubilette, your attentiveness to the lack of details. I've heard only a few arguments to what these individual people think of their armies, while I am trying to understand outside thoughts! I do understand your arguments, but I think that they do somewhat distract from the topic.

[Astral Platypus]

It's hard for me not to think of Celts or Gauls when I think Eldar. I know a lot of that is covered by Space Wolves and other Chapters, but still...

You say Yriel Iyanden, and all I can think of is Vercingetorix or a male analogue of Boudica.

[Scion_of_Terra]

While the power structure of the 40k universe is rather unique, the cultural templates are obviously copypasta. The IG are all 20th century nations, while the SM are classical and medieval factions. The Eldar represent the old Orient, while the Tau are a more modern-day Asia (which makes sense that they'd be related like that, if you read the fluff), what with their castes, communism, and love of mecha. Crons are ancient Egypt, and the Orks are simply monkeys with AKs and grenades.

[eldargal]

Er, no, thats really incredibly simplistic. For a start the Eldar are not particularly oriental, Jes Goodwin has said so himself. They take some inspiration from the Orient, but much more from a huge swathe of Old World cultures. The Praetorian IG are Victorian, not 20th century, the Vostroyans are really more 19th cenrury Russian than 20th etcetera etcetera. Necrons have as much in common with Egypt as Orks do, they aren't Tomb Kings.

[Grabula]

I'd argue that not just the Black Templars but all space marines in general share a small resemblance to crusader armies...heavily armed and armored knights that seemed all but unstoppable to the "little man" of the time.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Wouldn't the Orks be more like the Viking raiders?

[Nosmo75]

40K:

Cadians are apparently based on 20th century United Nations forces, with the name having been taken from 'Canadian'.

Vostroyans are pre/post/during Russian Revolution.

Valhallans are Cold War USSR.

Steel Legion are WWII Germans with their focus on armoured companies.

The Death Korp of Krieg are WWI Germans with their focus on attrition and trench warfare and artillery.

Mordians are France (I believe they still had those caps in WWII, so possibly WWII era France?)

Catachan Jungle Fighters are the USA during the Vietnam War.

Tallarn Desert Raiders are Middle Eastern guerillas.

Space Marines in general are crusading knights.

Space Wolves take influences from Vikings and other warrior cultures.

Blood Angels take the vampire myth from Eastern Europe, and possibly some Christian themes, when Sanguinius is taken into account.

Dark Angels are alike to cults and secret orders like the Freemasons or the Illuminati.

Ultramarines and Imperial Fists have inlfuences from the Holy Roman Empire.

White Scars are based on Mongols and other quick-moving cavalry-based armies.

Raven Guard are like modern day black ops (just look at that picture of the RG Scout in Imperial Armour Volume 8, and tell me they aren't =P).

Iron Snakes draw a lot from Ancient Greece and Sparta.

Tau are akin to modern day Japan/China: a terrible civil war followed by huge technological advances.

Eldar draw inspiration from B-movies and 1950's/1960's science fiction, but also draw inspiration from Eastern warrior temples.

Dark Eldar are... erm... I cannot think of a real-life analogue for the Dark Eldar. Elves are from myths, technology-that-seems-to-be-magic is Arthur C. Clarke, and wanton murder, slave-taking and essence-drinking is similar to vampire myths. I suppose the slave-taking could be similar to armies like Persia who pressed their slaves into battle (Grotesques), but it's a bit weak.

Necrons are based veeeeeeery loosely on Ancient Egypt. In my opinion, they are based more on this mythical alien culture that science fiction would have us believe helped the Egyptians to build the pyramids, with the difference being that the Necrontyr didn't seem to recruit/create any races to help them in the War In Heaven (but that would make for some interesting fluff, imo), they just wiped out everything the Old Ones created.

Tyranids are based on the xenomorphs from the 'Aliens' series, but could be said to be an analogue for nature/disease in general.

Orks share similarities with science fiction films like Mad Max, and Road Warriors with their rusty, ramshackle machines and love of speed, but do not seem to have had a significant amount of real-world inspiration.

[Nosmo75]

Fantasy:

Orcs are based on football hooligans and Pics (the ancient Scots)

The Empire is based on Europe in the Middle Ages, I believe. With a bit of Victorian steam technology and a Renaissance-esque focus on invention.

Bretonnia are based on medieval France and Arthurian myths.

Warriors of Chaos are loosed based on all Germanic invading tribes, but mainly Vikings.

Lustria and the Southlands are based on Mayan/Aztec culture.

Tilea is based on Renaissance Italy.

Estalia is based on Spain (probably during her pirate days, but I can't be sure)

Albion is based on Celtic Britain and Ireland.

Cathay is based on, erm... some time in Chinese history (feudal?).

Nippon is based on, erm... some time in Japanese history (feudal?).

Araby is, obviously, based on Arabia and Arabian myths.

The Marauder tribes near Cathay are based on the Hun.

Ind is based on India.

Dwarfs are based loosely on Yorkshire miners, apparently, but their culture draws a lot from Tolkien.

Dark Elves are supposed to have similar aspects to celebrities and rock stars (y'know, getting away with murder, taking drugs etc)

High Elves are similar to the aristocracy in several ways.

Wood Elves are like hippies, but they might being drawing inspiration from ancient forest-dwelling tribes in what we now call Europe.

Ogre Kingdoms are based on caveman/Stone Age culture with most Ogres living a violent 'might is right' tribal existence.

Vampire Counts are based on the Eastern Europe vampire myths.

Tomb Kings are based on Ancient Egypt and their mythology.

[Sam]

@ Nosmo

I would say the Catachans have more in common with the NVA than the US forces in Vietnam. The NVA were more at home in the jungle and more prone to use traps and guerilla warfare than the US.

[fuzzbuket]

. Orks are analogous to Glasgow...

l0l classy :P

now i have to get the brawlin orks diorama off GW and convert some hoodies,addidas tracksuits, and rangers/celtic shirts :P

[Cyberscape7]

Blood Angels= Red Cross. Know its not an army, but it makes sense...

[FirBholg]

Part of the problem with attempting to directly correlate 40k armies with historical forces is that a lot of it has evolved over time. Mostly, 40k take concepts and feels from all over history (and fiction/pop-culture) and mashes them up to create something interesting.

Eldar have a certain amount of Japanese flavour in terms of looks (hell, some of the original craftworld Eldar were converted to sashimono-like back banners), but in terms of background there's more of a Celtic feel there (via Warhammer Fantasy elves, which are themselves heavily informed by Atlantis myth/fiction and Moorcock's Melnibone) - for what was essentially originally elves in space, they're really rather well-developed and interesting!

Space Marines (in look, at least) were originally based off of the Warhammer fantasy Chaos Warriors. There's obvious parallels with Rome and the Ultramarines, and there's certain Germanic elements to the Imperial Fists (honour duelling).

The Imperial Guard were originally more Napoleonic in feel (look at the artwork on the original plastic Guard box set, for example), though the Imperial Guard in the 90s was probably the biggest proponent of direct parallels with historical forces (Rough Riders of Attila, etc).



I would say the Catachans have more in common with the NVA than the US forces in Vietnam. The NVA were more at home in the jungle and more prone to use traps and guerilla warfare than the US.

Agreed and seconded - they're kinda like a crazy mix of both sides of the conflict (plus the giant Deathworld scorpions, of course).

Hell, I kind of see the Tau having parallels with the Roman Empire, in that they use auxiliaries from the races they've conqu- uh, 'brought into the fold'...

Chaos is largely based on the writings of Moorcock and Lovecraft's circle, and as for Necrons (ignoring Terminator, of course) I've always seen them as more Mayan than Egyptian - sure there are the 'scarabs', but the look of the monolith is far more cyclopean than Egyptian, and hell, they have a troop type called 'Flayed ones'! :D

[MaltonNecromancer]

Dark Eldar are... erm... I cannot think of a real-life analogue for the Dark Eldar.

In terms of real-world analogues, they don't really have them, being more closely linked to various fictional villains. The haemonculi are a mix. They're based on Clan Tzimisce from Vampire: The Masquerade, as well as the Cenobites from Hellraiser. Urien Rakarth is quite clearly inspired by Vampire characters like Velya The Vivisectionist and Sasha Vykos. The Grotesques are similar to Tzimisce in Zulo form, and the Wracks are Szlachta. You've then got the Hellions who are clearly inspired by the Green Goblin from "Spiderman".

Useful info on Tzimisce:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimisce
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Tzimisce

Orks are obviously inspired by football hooligan culture. They had a supplement caled "'Ere we go!" for goodness' sake! Generally, historical human armies invade and dominate for power, territory, to assert dominance, etc. So do most of the 40K armies. But Orks don't. Orks are the only ones to do it entirely for a laugh... like football hooligans, who riot purely for the sake of enjoying a good fight. During the late 80's/early 90's when 40K was first around, football hooliganism was big news in the UK, so it's not surprising that it influenced GW (who were always fairly tongue-in-cheek with the fluff at the start) to do the Orks as a black comedy version of it. Even the way the Orks invade planets is the way hooligans travel - "Show up on a big bus wiv all yer mates. Kick sum teef in." The fact their phonetic accent is quite clearly estuary English only seals the deal.

[Smotku]

Firsst off The Roman Empire is a very different thing than the Holy Roman Empire. Ultramarines most reflect the Roman Empire in Names and Iconography as well as maintaining a sort of " Pax Romana" in there own sector of space. The Holy Roman Empire was an early version of Germany that was, (according to some famous person) niether Holy nor Roman nor an Empire. It existed in one form or another from the 11th century until the 17th century. It never was a tight political entity at best a loose confederation that had pretensions to greatness under certain powerful monarchs.

The Eldar defy description as they are really a manifestation of a Fantasy Genre.

The Empire as a whole actually bears a striking resemblance to the byzantine Empire. A Theocratic Empire that is powerful but on a long and inevitalbe decline due to corruption and decadence and being harried by younger upstart races and barbarians seeking its destruction.

I have to disagree with those who say the Necrons arnet based on Egyptian mythos. All the symbolism archetecture and Iconography are explicitly egyption. Thier fluff speaks directly to the Egytptian obsession with the afterlife. The thousand Sons also are an explicitly egyptian motif except they follow the magical aspect of ancient Egypt.

The Tau are Communist Chinese + modern Japan except more benign.

As for a few others the Blood Angel certainly have the whole Vamp thing but I think they follow a Renaisance Italian motiff more than any other.

Orks are the Germanic Barbarians of the Late Roman Empire period with the whole might makes right attitude.

Many other Space Marine Chapters borrow various historical motiffs

Imperial Guard do the same thing.

[eldargal]

It was Napoleon who said it was neither holy nor Roman, and it was he who dissolved it in 1805. It lasted from the coronation of Charlemagne in A.D. 800 to the above date.

I'm sorry but there is very little about the Necrons that is Egyptian, many races had an obsession with death, and some, like the Mesopotamians and even the Maya have an aesthetic that is far similar to the Necrons than that of Egypt. There is certainly nothing Egyptian about the Necron script.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Necrons aren't Egyptian. They're Tomb Kings IN SPACE! Which is about the lamest thing GW could have made them. The aesthetics are Egyptian in the same way that the film "The Mummy" is Egyptian; only in a "looks the same to an untrained eye" way.

I really wish GW would do a proper "Robot" army that wasn't just some rehashed WHFB pile of cack.Seriously, how hard is it to do 40K robots? We keep hearing about the Iron Men, and that would be awesome - just claim they didn't all get killed, they just hid really well, and went into stasis like the Necrons, and now they've come back.

Stupid Egyptian terminator endoskeletons make me sad.

[Deadlift]

It was Napoleon who said it was neither holy nor Roman, and it was he who dissolved it in 1805. It lasted from the coronation of Charlemagne in A.D. 800 to the above date.

I'm sorry but there is very little about the Necrons that is Egyptian, many races had an obsession with death, and some, like the Mesopotamians and even the Maya have an aesthetic that is far similar to the Necrons than that of Egypt. There is certainly nothing Egyptian about the Necron script.

I disagree wholeheartedly, just look at the Monolith (just says Egyptian pyramid) all the scarabs and the old style necron lord, all these models scream out ancient egypt. Obviously everyone has their way of looking at things but to me the necrons just say Egypt.........in space :)

[Smotku]

I agree that it is not a completely accurate portrayal of Ancient Egypt but it is far closer to Ancient Egypt than any other culture. I dont see any resemblance to the Mayans. The Lizard Men have that theme.

The specific things that make references to Egyptian are ...They are always portrayed as being in deserts, the Monolith resembles an egyptian Pyramid far more than a Mayan or any other pyramids. The Tomb theme, scarabs, skeletal warriors (thats from GW site), An obession with death and afterlife, the mummy like appearance of certain units. The name Necron essentially means death.

The things that arent egyptian are the C'tan, the robotic terminator like appaerance. They also dont apply other charactoristics of Ancient Egypt such as the natural aspect, most Egyptian dieties have animal heads and the Necron theme is a misapllication of the death and rebirth motif found in many egyptian myths. But things do come back to life.

The comparison to the Mummy ( the movie) is correct in that it is a shallow poetrayal of ancient Egypt it still is based on Egypt. Sorta like saying that Taco Bell is Mexican food. It isnt really Mexican food but it uses the forms.

[FirBholg]

At the risk of turning this into a thread about Necrons, as I said, to me the style of the monolith resembles the blocky, cyclopean style of mesoamerica far more than Egypt. Of course, a lot of the reasons you state for associating the Necrons with Egypt can be applied equally to the Maya (and similar cultures) - obsession with death, pyramids, mummies... Essentially the Necrons are based on concepts or archetypes common to a number of civilisations (to be fair, mesoamerican history is a particular interest of mine ;). ).

That said, of course the original concept for Necrons was essentially tomb-kings in space - scarabs, chariots (the destroyers were specifically described like this), and the pointy-headed Necron lord. Heck, ankhs featured on the original models, iirc. At least they've evolved and developed a bit since then - I'm really hoping that they do something interesting with the new Necron codex (not least since the two newer races have both had two codicies to the Necrons' one so far).