Jet Packs

[Wildeybeast]

Ok, here's the dilemma.

P27 of C:TE states that jet packs "do not count as moving when they fire rapid fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy wepons". It also states "crisis suits are jump infantry subject to the jetpack special rules, as described in the Warhammer 40000 Unit Types rules section".

However, a quick glance at the rulebook (p52) reveals that jetpacks confer the 'relentless' special rule which allows you to move and fire both rapid fire and heavy weapons.

So my question is, which takes precedence? This is purely hypothetical, since you can't actually equip any jetpack users with heavy weapons, but it does raise an interesting question on precedence
I know the GW line is that where rulebook and codex disagree, follow the codex. However, I can't help but feel that in this case the rulebook should take precedence because
1) the codex is not current with the rule book
2) the rulebook is clearly intended to cover the Tau as it explicitly references them in the entry (and they are the only race that uses jetpacks!)

What do people think, does this over ride the codex precedence rule? Does that even apply if the codex is out of date? How do other people play?

[murrburger]

No idea. Another 4th to 5th edition lapse. If it ever comes up (lol) just discuss it with your opponent. The first printing of TE is full of errors, IIRC.

Not that it matters, anyways.

[Tynskel]

somebody's gunna tell ya that 'codex trumps rulebook'. In this case, considering the ONLY jet pack units in GW's codex (ignoring forgeworld) are Tau units, this leads me to believe that the Jet Pack rules are for them.

it is possible a unit from a newer codex like dark eldar has some jetpack, but I am unaware of them.

[Cursed13]

Honestly, it's a non-issue. If you look in the codex, there isn't a single heavy weapon that is available to any model with a jetpack anyway, so you'll never have an issue with that. Besides, it clearly states that the benefit doesn't extend to heavy weapons.

[BuFFo]

Honestly, it's a non-issue. If you look in the codex, there isn't a single heavy weapon that is available to any model with a jetpack anyway, so you'll never have an issue with that. Besides, it clearly states that the benefit doesn't extend to heavy weapons.

Markerlights....

[Wildeybeast]

Honestly, it's a non-issue. If you look in the codex, there isn't a single heavy weapon that is available to any model with a jetpack anyway, so you'll never have an issue with that. Besides, it clearly states that the benefit doesn't extend to heavy weapons.

But it aslo clearly states that they follow the rules listed in the rulebook and the rulebook clearly states that it does extend to heavy weapons and it seems obvious to me that the rulebook is intended to include Tau jetpacks as they are the only ones in existence!


I know its a non issue in practical terms and did mention that in my post, however it does matter in terms of codex vs rulebook precedence. I think it is an issue, as it challenges the whole 'codex is always right' rule which seems to me an absolute nonsense in a) this case in particular as the codex contradicts itself and b) you still have codexes which are 3rd edition rules and therefore not UTD with the current ruleset. IMO it seems common sense that the most UTD set of rules (whether they be in a codex or rulebook) take precedence. Do disagree?

I have had different reactions from my gaming group on this, which is why I'm curious to find out a much wider opinion. It may be a hypthetical issue, but I still think it is a debate worth having.

[fuzzbuket]

the old 4rth ed jetpacks let you move 6' in the assault phase, but not 12' in the movement phase. and didnt give relentless.

discuss with local LGS manager,tourney organiser- diffrent people play it differently.

just to let you know.

[Fishboy]

The one thing I'd keep in mind is that the 5th edition was clearly written knowing that the Tau codex contained what it did. If you look at the rules regarding making the 6" assault move after deep striking, the rule book clearly states this is allowed for jet pack units, unless the codex specifically disallows it. Then if you read the Tau codex, that 6" assault move is specifically disallowed immediately following a deep strike. (Thanks for the tease, GW.)

So in this case, the rule book makes no nod to the codex when it gives jet pack units the Relentless special rule. In that case, I'd say that the full benefit should apply. The codex may say that by virtue of being a jet pack unit, the benefit of firing on the move doesn't extend to heavy weapons, but now, once you add Relentless to them, it does.

But I freely admit, if I hit a tournament and the folks running it rule the other way, I'm not going to argue with them on it.

[lobster-overlord]

Yes, codex trumps BRB. GW acknowledges that. So, codex states it does not confir for hw in this case. The BRB is the generic jetpack rule, and TE is the specific with a modification.

It could be in the BRB for streamlining for inclusion in forthcoming codexes, such as the next edition of Tau and any other army that might include JPs in the future.

[Connjurus]

It does confer relentless, and this is why I think why:

1) The model IS equipped with a jetpack.
2) The codex says that this jetpack makes you count as stationary for firing rapid-fire weapons, but does not confer the bonus to heavy weapons.
3) The rulebook then states that models with jetpacks are relentless.

Between 2) and 3), there are no contradictions. Rather, 3) is just filling in the holes for 2). You are still equipped with a jetpack, and subject to all their rules.

Also, @Cursed13, missile pods are heavy 2.


the old 4rth ed jetpacks let you move 6' in the assault phase, but not 12' in the movement phase. and didnt give relentless.


5th edition jetpacks don't let you move 12" either. 6" in the movement phase, relentless, and 6" in the assault phase, regardless of whether you're assaulting or not.

[Xenith]

I know the GW line is that where rulebook and codex disagree, follow the codex. However, I can't help but feel that in this case the rulebook should take precedence because...


And that's where you stop. Codex takes precedence is in black and white. Anything else on top of this is your opinion :)

[Smotku]

missile pods are assault 2

[Lemt]

And that's where you stop. Codex takes precedence is in black and white. Anything else on top of this is your opinion :)

And what, is his opinion not good enough for you? :p

[Xenith]

Not when it contradicts the rules!

[Wildeybeast]

Not when it contradicts the rules!

My opinion doesn't contradict the rules, the rules contradict themselves. On the one hand the codex says no heavy weapons and moving, but on the other it says follow the rules in the rulebook which states that you can move and fire them. Confusing no?

Also, unless I am mistaken, the 'codex takes precedence' is not actually an official rule printed in a rulebook, more a guideline from GW.

[BuFFo]

Also, unless I am mistaken, the 'codex takes precedence' is not actually an official rule printed in a rulebook, more a guideline from GW.

And if you didn't follow this 'guideline' the game would be unplayable.

Every Tau player I know just play Jetpacks as Relentless, in casual games and tournament games, including GW supported ones like 'Ard Boyz. I have never seen this challenged once, nor ever even brought up until this thread.

Tau players would laugh in the face of anyone who tells them that their army is gimped more than it already is. I am not tying to be smart, smarmy or rude. I am just being honest.

If you play Tau, play Jet Packs as Relentless and don't ever look back.

[Gir]

The ruling about firing rapidfire weapons on the move is related to the suit, and is not an extension of having jetpacks. If the unit didn't have jetpacks, it could shoot rapid fire weapons as if it where stationary, etc, but not heavy weapons. The inclusion of a jetpack adds the rule of relentless, which then enables the movement and shooting of heavy weapons. (XV-88's are the PERFECT example of this)

It seems people are trying to link rules together that have nothing to do with each other.

[Fellend]

just want to point out that the new elder aspect warriors have jetpacks.

[Wildeybeast]

The ruling about firing rapidfire weapons on the move is related to the suit, and is not an extension of having jetpacks. If the unit didn't have jetpacks, it could shoot rapid fire weapons as if it where stationary, etc, but not heavy weapons. The inclusion of a jetpack adds the rule of relentless, which then enables the movement and shooting of heavy weapons. (XV-88's are the PERFECT example of this)

It seems people are trying to link rules together that have nothing to do with each other.

That clarifies things quite a lot, thank you. Re-reading the codex, that does make more sense, though God knows why GW had to put that in, something of a redundant rule when you already have relentless.

[Gir]

That clarifies things quite a lot, thank you. Re-reading the codex, that does make more sense, though God knows why GW had to put that in, something of a redundant rule when you already have relentless.

Still a 4th ed leftover, but that's how it works in 5th ed.

[gcsmith]

its defo a silly leftover rule as the only heavy weapon jet packs have access to is the stealthsuits markerlight :p which Is relentless :p

[Tynskel]

its defo a silly leftover rule as the only heavy weapon jet packs have access to is the stealthsuits markerlight :p which Is relentless :p

don't forget marker drones. The drones have the same movement capability as the squad they are purchased for.

And there are the crisis suit variants in Forgeworld. Any @$$hole that does not let a Tau player use forgeworld is, for a lack of a better word, an @$$hole.

[gcsmith]

:p I know people always let me use the greater knarloc with bolt thrower, :P

and the marker drones are the same unit type which is jet pack, Which only follow the Rule book, since the rules in the codex only mention the suit.