Battle engines worth it?

[Grabula]

I picked up the latest No Quarter today and perused the new Battle Engines rules as well as the rules for the khador gun carriage and I have to say, I'm underwhelmed. I think its points are accurate at 9 but I guess my expectations were that they would come in at something like 12-15 pts, be a little tougher than your average warjack/warbeast, and pack some umph.
I think the size of these models and all the rules making them so easy to hit are going to make it hard to vindicate using them. For example, NQ35 says you'll want to play carefully with these models, acknowledging their "brittleness". However with the gun carriages heavy guns having a range of 12", not only will you be forced to put it in range of just about everything that can charge, you'll have to spend a lot of effort to protect it.

I talk in more detail about it on my new blog: http://warhed.6sided.net/

What do you guys and gals think? Can you see yourself fielding something like this on the battlefield?

[scadugenga]

I haven't read the new NQ yet, so have no idea on the actual rules/stat cards.

That being said, I remember that Battle Engines can be repaired? If so,that's a big plus.

I know I definitely want the Cygnar one--just for the cool factor, but I'm not going to hold my breath on the rules.

[tonyzahn]

I haven't proxied them yet, but I think the lack of "umph" is a result of privateer not wanting Battle Engines to take the focus away from existing models. They have a place, but if they made them much better then you'd have to field one to be competetive, which is somthing they try to avoid with new models.

The downside to that is that new models tend to have increasingly niche rules. That said, in the case of the Khador one, 9 pts for a very mobile gun platform that has 2 shots? I like that a lot.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

I haven't proxied them yet, but I think the lack of "umph" is a result of privateer not wanting Battle Engines to take the focus away from existing models. They have a place, but if they made them much better then you'd have to field one to be competetive, which is somthing they try to avoid with new models.

The downside to that is that new models tend to have increasingly niche rules. That said, in the case of the Khador one, 9 pts for a very mobile gun platform that has 2 shots? I like that a lot.

QFT.

I like the model and I hope to get one for my birthday in April, but it's purely a flavor unit for me. I think it's priced very competitively at 9 points because that puts it in the same league as our jacks. For the cost of the gun carriage, you can get a wardog and a destroyer. Or 2 mortars and eEiryss. But they don't have SPD 7, or aoe 4 bombards that stay a whole round to cause roughy terrain. Or can charge 10" (at LEAST, before feats and spells) and hit with two pow 12 horses that cause knockdown. And remember it can trample. That is a HUGE base!! You will trample the hell out of anything in this game! Cast Occulation on it with strakov and it would be very save from shooting. And it has Pathfinder, can be repaired...

Yeah, I think the model is just fine.

[mazgier]

And remember it can trample. That is a HUGE base!! You will trample the hell out of anything in this game!
Taking into account that it has 12cm diameter base and the Trample rules require it to end its move in a place free of any models I'm afraid you won't see it trampling that often...

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

Taking into account that it has 12cm diameter base and the Trample rules require it to end its move in a place free of any models I'm afraid you won't see it trampling that often...

120mm is about 4.8" (being generous for poor measuring) and it's trample is 10". That means it had roughly 2" it has to clear.

Or... It's trample is 177.8mm, small bases are 30mm. It can ALMOST clear two lines of infantry.

Then again, we are forgetting the 0" Trample. Fill up it's front facing with infantry, 0" trample.

I think it can happen more often than expected.

[scadugenga]

Okay, after seeing the PP site and the back of the Ret battle engine--totally worth it.

It's definitely nasty as all get out.

[Grabula]

I certainly get the structure of the gun carriage as far as the game design aspect goes. It's not any more powerful then some Jacks and it's price at 9 pts makes it tempting. I'm not impressed with it's ability to be repaired. Repair is really hit or miss. As I mention in my blog, I find that in general, when an opponent decides he wants to trash something, it happens pretty quick. Now throw in that when your opponent decides to trash your battle engine, he doesn't have to worry about not being able to hit it since you can't hide it and I don't see it being a big factor.

I chuckled when I read trample. As it is, it's tough enough to trample with a jack and it's base size. True the Gun Carriage moves 7" so maybe, just maybe you'll occasionally get off a trample, but I see it being more difficult to accomplish than with a jack.

In all honesty, the Wrath preview in this NQ was basically a flop for me. I play Khador and Retribution and all the entries in NQ are underwhelming. For example, the Retribution Heavy Gun team. sure it's only 2 pts but Pow 7...really? HEAVY Gun team where the HEAVY gun apparently does less damage than much smaller weapons. Even with Armor Piercing, I don't see this model having much use in what is generally a highly mobile army. It can't move and shoot, and it's next to useless against anything over ARM 11 or so. I'd say it might make a solid solo hunter but again, can't move and shoot and you need to be pretty manuverable to hunt down a lot of solos.

I'm guessing The Retribution and Menoth battle engines might turn out to be slightly more useful than the Gun Carriage but overall, I'm starting to lose hope that Wrath is going to be one of those knock your socks off type of releases. In fact, I'm starting to feel like maybe Privateer is starting to run out of solid ideas and concenpts for new units...

[mazgier]

Check the PP forum. The back side of Arcantrik Generator card is there. It looks that with Polarity Shield, Range Booster and the various types of shots available for Teleforce Cannon it may become a quite viable choice.

[justsam]

i'll eventually pick up a gun carriage. i run eVlad, so pumping it up with +3 to every stat and then turning it loose should be interesting. 9 points is another juggernaut, though...

[mazgier]

i'll eventually pick up a gun carriage. i run eVlad, so pumping it up with +3 to every stat and then turning it loose should be interesting. 9 points is another juggernaut, though...
Except that eVlad's feat applies only to warrior models which gun carriage definitely isn't...

[mikethefish]

I picked up the latest No Quarter today and perused the new Battle Engines rules as well as the rules for the khador gun carriage and I have to say, I'm underwhelmed. I think its points are accurate at 9 but I guess my expectations were that they would come in at something like 12-15 pts, be a little tougher than your average warjack/warbeast, and pack some umph.

Absolutely not. The guys at PP have stated a few times that no Battle Engine would ever eclipse a warjack in power and effectiveness. The focus of the game has always been and always will be on the warjacks - jacks are kind of the mascots for the games in both rules and fluff. The power of the Battle Engines is just right about where I thought it should be, and so far both of them are well worth their points.

[justsam]

Except that eVlad's feat applies only to warrior models which gun carriage definitely isn't...

...also, after researching the cards, a juggernaut is actually 7 points. i was thinking of the destroyer at 9...

[Grabula]

and so far both of them are well worth their points.

Quantify that. I see that comment made a lot on gaming forums without any real detail.

After seeing the arcantrik force generator, I can certainly agree it's worth the time, effort and points. I just think for the price of the gun carriage you can get something more useful. That's not including the cost of supporting units, like mechanics, you might need to make it more survivable.

I don't think there is anything wrong with making something more powerful than a Jack. In fact, you could probably argue pretty strongly that the Gun Carriage is much more strong then most Jacks. If it weren't for the base size, I'd say it could potentially be one of the best buys in the game. Base size plus a few Battle Engine rules put's it more in the meh category. I'd take the Behemoth, more points and all, over the gun carriage almost anyday.

I'm more sold on the Arcantrix Force Generator. It supports it's army much better and provides more than just a large target on the tabletop.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

Except you cant normally boost to hit or damage with teh gun carriage, and it doesnt benefit from a LOT of the khador Jack boosting spells and abilities. Also, most all comers Khador lists take Mechanks anyway to keep their jacks more annoying.


Quantify that. I see that comment made a lot on gaming forums without any real detail.

After seeing the arcantrik force generator, I can certainly agree it's worth the time, effort and points. I just think for the price of the gun carriage you can get something more useful. That's not including the cost of supporting units, like mechanics, you might need to make it more survivable.

I don't think there is anything wrong with making something more powerful than a Jack. In fact, you could probably argue pretty strongly that the Gun Carriage is much more strong then most Jacks. If it weren't for the base size, I'd say it could potentially be one of the best buys in the game. Base size plus a few Battle Engine rules put's it more in the meh category. I'd take the Behemoth, more points and all, over the gun carriage almost anyday.

I'm more sold on the Arcantrix Force Generator. It supports it's army much better and provides more than just a large target on the tabletop.

[Grabula]

In my experience Mechaniks are are rare. Most players realize that the chances of them coming in handy are slim to noe. In large games I might take a small unit but in general the points are better spent elsewhere.

[Greggle]

Since the Mechaniks can hide behind the carriage, I think we might be seeing more of them. Being able to hide behind a model that can't be shot through or slammed back will make them much more survivable, and they can come out to repair in mid-late game much more easily.

[FastEd]

For example, the Retribution Heavy Gun team. sure it's only 2 pts but Pow 7...really? HEAVY Gun team where the HEAVY gun apparently does less damage than much smaller weapons. Even with Armor Piercing, I don't see this model having much use in what is generally a highly mobile army. It can't move and shoot, and it's next to useless against anything over ARM 11 or so. I'd say it might make a solid solo hunter but again, can't move and shoot and you need to be pretty manuverable to hunt down a lot of solos.

Taking actual ballistics out of the equation, since we have no idea what kind of round the rifle is firing, POW 7 is one higher then the Hunter's POW 6, a dedicated anti-armor jack with a ROF 1 armor piercing gun. The trade off is that instead of 6 points you pay 2, but aren't as mobile or durable. To counter act the lack of mobility the gun has a longer range. Potential difficulty hitting targets, even though their RAT isn't terrible, is made up for by virtue of being a weapons team, and thus having a bonus to hit because of the spotter.

While small base models aren't optimal against the gun, saying it's useless against anything over ARM 11 is, respectfully, incorrect since armor piercing gives you +2 damage against small base models, bringing the effective Pow to 9, at which point double ones is the only thing that wouldn't kill your target at ARM 11. Average dice will box ARM 15 models with one wound...though I dare you to find me one.

Against medium and large base models, the gun's intended target, you are at flat dice for damage with against ARM14, which is admittedly low for a medium base, but for every two points of armor above that you are only at one less point of damage, with ARM 20 coming in at dice -3 for damage.

Realistically, armor piercing on ranged is never going to look as powerful on paper as the few things that have it on melee weapons. That said, to apply it in melee you have to go through the task of getting your Behemoth or Angelius into melee, and for more points spent as well, where as the Hunter or the Heavy Rifle Team only require line of sight, and have a range longer then the charge threat ranges of either melee users for about 1/2 and 1/5 the cost respectively.

[theHman]

For example, the Retribution Heavy Gun team. sure it's only 2 pts but Pow 7...really? HEAVY Gun team where the HEAVY gun apparently does less damage than much smaller weapons. Even with Armor Piercing, I don't see this model having much use in what is generally a highly mobile army. It can't move and shoot, and it's next to useless against anything over ARM 11 or so. I'd say it might make a solid solo hunter but again, can't move and shoot and you need to be pretty manuverable to hunt down a lot of solos.

I'm sorry, but your comment about pow 7 with armor piercing being next to useless against Arm11+ smacks of noobness. You do realize that you HALVE your opponents armor rating right?

So Khador Jacks at Arm20 become arm 10. That's dice -3. Odds are high you're gonna put some dmg on em. And as far as solo hunting goes... omg, yeah! This thing will wreck just about anything it hits in one shot given the avg arm of most solos hovers around the 14-18 mark (depending on the faction).

Armor piercing is an awesome ability whether it's a shooting attack (extra awesome most of the time) or in melee. It can really put the hurt on just about anything. Of course, if you could boost damage with them, that would be ridiculously awesome, esp @2pts a pop.

Or you could just take a bunch of those stupidly under-costed assassins

As of right now, I'm not really sold on the battle engines either.
As a cryx player who hates jacks outside of the chickenhawks, I really want the Wraith Engine to be awesome because I like the model.

But I'm extremely skeptical of that actually being the case. The odds are high that I'm just not going to buy the model at all b/c it'll be a waste of pts in my list.

But hey, who knows what'll happen. Could be that Battle Engines turn out to be great.

[FastEd]

Just for the record, Armor Piercing only halves the armor of medium and large base models. Against small base it just adds +2 to the damage roll. I also think you may want to take a look at the average armor of solos again. Considering that most solos are small base warrior models I think you'll find they tend to hover in the 12-14 range more often then not, with a few exceptions being higher (cavalry/dragoons, solo versions of multi-wound infantry, etc) and another few being lower (purely support solos, non-combatants, and the like).

Also, why so aggro? We're all friends here, and all share a common interest, let's act like it. K?

[Kovnik Obama]

Quantify that. I see that comment made a lot on gaming forums without any real detail.

After seeing the arcantrik force generator, I can certainly agree it's worth the time, effort and points. I just think for the price of the gun carriage you can get something more useful. That's not including the cost of supporting units, like mechanics, you might need to make it more survivable.

I don't think there is anything wrong with making something more powerful than a Jack. In fact, you could probably argue pretty strongly that the Gun Carriage is much more strong then most Jacks. If it weren't for the base size, I'd say it could potentially be one of the best buys in the game. Base size plus a few Battle Engine rules put's it more in the meh category. I'd take the Behemoth, more points and all, over the gun carriage almost anyday.

I'm more sold on the Arcantrix Force Generator. It supports it's army much better and provides more than just a large target on the tabletop.

Really?... 1 pow 16 AOE 4 or D3+1 POW 14 missile attacks beats 2 Pow 14 AOE 4, in your book? And even looking at the special rules, you get more bang for your points with the Gun Carriage. I do hope lots of my ret opponents think like you. I will be releived when I see a Arcantrik Force Generator being put on the table.

[FastEd]

Ignoring my thoughts on the subject at hand, you just quoted a post directed at somebody else asking them to quantify something, and responded to it without actually quantifying your feelings on the matter. I must admit, respectfully, that I got a little bit of amusement out of that. Also, why so aggro?


Back on to the subject at hand, I actually do prefer the Arcantrik Force Generator over the Gun Carriage, though they both have their own merit. I find myself leaning more toward the general toolbox that the Force Generator seems to be, instead of the Gun Carriage's apparent, comparatively, lack of options. I think the Force Generator brings a new set of tools to the table for Ret, where as the Gun Carriage mostly falls in line with what Khador already does. Admittedly that isn't necessarily a bad thing, in fact it may be a very good thing. I just think because of it you will see less Gun Carriages on the board then Force Generators in the long run if we base it on that reason alone.

As for the comparison between ranged attacks, at RAT 7 I do prefer the selection of shots the Force Generator has over the guns of the Gun Carriage at RAT 5, though they clearly serve a different purpose. At RAT 5, unless you are aiming at something big (read: low def) your really looking to deviate into troop formations to cause general havoc, where as at RAT 7 I think your more looking to hit a particular target and splash everything around it when using the AOE, or pound a small handful of targets with multiple shots, with the ranged slam being nice icing to help round out the edges while providing a tactical option to potentially clear something out of the way.

Lastly, on a quick related note, the Gun Carriage's Heavy Cannons are only POW 12, not 14, though it wouldn't actually make a difference in my thoughts on the subject.