Chaos Necrons?

[Necron2.0]

This is something that's been on my mind for awhile. I read a story, in which a Standard Template Construct system that produces Iron Men is found. The planet it was found on, however, has been under the influence of Chaos for some time, and when the STC is switched on, it immediately spits out a decidedly demonic Iron Man.

This got me thinking of the Necrons. Now, as I understand it, the entire Necron race was created before any of the chaos gods had arisen, so they couldn't have been built with explicit defenses against taint - they wouldn't have known about it. Added to this, the fluff regarding the C'tan and the Necrontyr indicates they simply cannot fathom the warp.

So, the question I have is, could a Necron be tainted? What would happen if one of the worlds sucked into the Eye of Terror were a Tomb World? Could you have an army of Chaos Necrons, lead by a Nightbringer style greater deamon emerge?

[Fellend]

If you want to make that army, sure you can!
But fluffwise I think it's impossible, the necron warriors aren't sentient enough to be tainted and the C'tan are I'd assume immune due to immense power.
Human machine spirits (aka) AI can be tainted so maybe it's not impossible, the question is exactly what kind of intelligence does a necron warrior actually have?

[gcsmith]

well yes they could, after all a necron is a soul construct and a soul can be corrupted according to warhammer, tho due to no psychic glimmer, like tau it would be like a wave trying to erode a cliff. Long and boring, tho not impossible, and time can be bent in the eye of terror.

[Grailkeeper]

Machine spirits aren't AI- they're organic growths. AI is banned in the imperium after a robot rebellion in the past. But these Iron men are robots from that era, so I suppose it is posible for AI to be corrupted

[sneakyben]

So what exactly is the machine spirit?

Servitors and other Imperial stuff uses the computing power of a labotomised human brain (?)

So do Land Raiders, Titans etc have extra bits of labotomised human brain knocking around inside them?

[FTE-Charge!!!]

Its a good point- there isn't much out there that explicity states they couldn't be corrupted. We see stories alll the time about how the mere presence of chaos taints objects around it. The warp in constant contact with living metal could have an effect.

Then there is the point of their souls- which they had none, but now do, kinda, sorta.... oh wait, do we have c'tan gods anymore? Hmmm um, well at least the imperium can set there watches to timely Necron invasions. Because thats how one of the most terror- inducing armies in the galaxy works. (Thank you 40k rulebook for singularly crapping on Necron fluff)

Do the conversion, it sounds pretty interesting. I would be interested to see how you mold the Necron bits with other chaotic bits :)

[Necron2.0]

So what exactly is the machine spirit?

I've always taken "Machine Spirit" to be anything that causes a machine to move. As such, "everything" has a machine spirit, unless it truly is just a hunk of metal.

My understanding of the 40K universe is that humanity has completely collapsed into ignorance and superstition, much like what literary sources claim how Europe was after the collapse of the Roman Empire. There is technology everywhere, but literally nobody understands any of it, not even the Adeptus Mechanicus. Indeed, outside of the AM, even to attempt to understand it would be condemned as heresy. The only reason why any of it works is because all the remaining technology is so highly automated and self-maintaining, from the factories that produce lasguns, to the process for creating Space Marines, right through to the machines that lobotomize and turn "heretics" into servitors. Some within the AM have managed to combine existing elements of technology into "new" things (sort of), but that's not the same as understanding what the base technlogy is. That's why they worship it all as an aspect of a god.

As for "Machine Spirit" as a 40K rule, probably what we're really talking about is an AI, and not another lobotomized half-human construct. Sure, the fluff says man is forbidden from creating machines in the likeness of the human mind, but that belies the reality. Man cannot actually create ANY machines, and wouldn't be able to differentiate a machine intelligence from an organic intelligence even if told what to look for.

And yes, this does mean that Orks are smarter than 'ummies.

As for the forces of Chaos and what they can taint, my understanding is they corrupt the very fabric of reality itself, which doesn't really require the presence of a soul. It is just easier if there is a soul there, because the soul is a defacto pre-existing link to the immaterium.

[Drew da Destroya]

Orkz is always smarter den Hummies. Orkz is best!

I guess a Necron could be Chaos-corrupted, especially their body. Although would their Necrodermis actually accept the "gifts" of Chaos? Or would they repair themselves and remove any tentacles/claws/googly eyes/extra heads/glitter that the Chaos gods had "given"?

It would be pretty funny for a Necron Lord to have his body corrupted, but his "mind" left intact. I imagine the Lord being fairly annoyed at the various tentacles (etc...) sprouting from his body.

[Lerra]

We'll see a huge expansion of Necron fluff with the release of the next codex, so I'd wait to see what it's store before deciding on how fluffy chaos 'crons are. With the current fluff, it's possible but it's a stretch.

That said, I'd love to see a Chaos 'Cron army. There's nothing wrong with "What-If" armies.

[gcsmith]

:p im so tempted to do a necron Chaos army with destroyers modified for oblits, and the lord having a daemon weapon, and a ctan being enchained by a sorceror :P

[Necron2.0]

I guess a Necron could be Chaos-corrupted, especially their body. Although would their Necrodermis actually accept the "gifts" of Chaos? Or would they repair themselves and remove any tentacles/claws/googly eyes/extra heads/glitter that the Chaos gods had "given"?


Well, that depends on the definition of living metal. We have "living metal" in our bodies ... we call them bones (calcium is a metal). In the body, there are two armies of cells constantly crawling throughout the lattice structure of each bone that are responsible for maintaining the bone's strength. The first group of cells secrete a powerful acid that dissolves the bone. The other group follows close behind and lays down fresh calcium. During your entire life, your skeleton is never more than 20 years old, tops. The reason your skeleton deteriorates with age is because as time progresses, the army that dissolves the skeleton begins to outnumber the one that rebuilds it. The idea that age related infirmity has anything to do with "wearing out" is a fiction. The processes that brought you from a single celled organism to full adulthood could conceivably continue indefinitely. The reason people grow old and die is because that's how we're programmed to go. All death is cell death.

As for Necrons, I see them being constructed similarly. Their metal bodies are literally swarming with nanites that constantly repair damage or rebuild missing parts, only they do it much, much faster than an organic system would. Chaos would corrupt this in the same way it would an organic - at the cellular/nanite level.

Of course, then you could have some real fun with things like Flayed Ones. Naturally there's the joyful horror of thoroughly evil, insane, demonic robots wrapped in screaming flesh, writhing with unnatural life. However, you could also go the Slaanesh route, and I think this could actually be more disturbing. I'm picturing something wearing the front half of a voluptuous nude corpse as a mask, but is all writhing, sickle-tipped tentacles erupting out the back. I also have Billy Idol's "Flesh for Fantasy" stuck in my head now.

[Morgan Darkstar]

sorry off topic,


The idea that age related infirmity has anything to do with "wearing out" is a fiction. The processes that brought you from a single celled organism to full adulthood could conceivably continue indefinitely. The reason people grow old and die is because that's how we're programmed to go. All death is cell death.

we are not programmed in any way shape or form to die cell death occurs because it is to damaged to go on functioning, not because it is programmed to die.

[Necron2.0]

sorry off topic,

we are not programmed in any way shape or form to die cell death occurs because it is to damaged to go on functioning, not because it is programmed to die.

Actually, we are ... just like most organisms. Consider Werner Syndrome, where people, some chronologically in their teens, die of extreme old age with all the attendant maladies of someone physically in their 80's and 90's. And then there is the Hayflick limit - a hard limit on the number of times a cell population will divide before cell division stops. When that limit is reach ... well you can guess what happens. Certain species of plant can be kept alive indefinitely by simply cutting off their flower stalks before they bloom. Once they do bloom, however, the plant dies almost immediately. Again, everything has its day in the sun, and when that day is over, it's over. If it were not so, then you'd see health-food junkies living longer than junk-food junkies, but largely that is not the case. They live better, but not longer.

[FTE-Charge!!!]

:p im so tempted to do a necron Chaos army with destroyers modified for oblits, and the lord having a daemon weapon, and a ctan being enchained by a sorceror :P

HERETIC!!!

haha, just remember, that even though you can turn a C'tan into a spawn they eventually find a way to break out (and then get really mad)! It was FAQed, so you know its legit! lol

[Lerra]

Necron 2.0 is right about the biology here.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmed_cell_death

[Morgan Darkstar]

sorry off topic,



we are not programmed in any way shape or form to die cell death occurs because it is to damaged to go on functioning, not because it is programmed to die.

sorry i should have been a bit more specific, yes cells do stop functioning i.e. die to prevent uncontrolled growth e.g. cancer etc.

the point i was trying to make is that we are not programmed to die there is nothing in our genetic makeup that dictates when we die. no one dies of old age only the diseases/conditions associated with old age.

[gcsmith]

so wat about old people who die of no observible disease?

[Morgan Darkstar]

so wat about old people who die of no observible disease?

Such as? i dont think i have seen a report that has listed a cause of death as old age ever.

always heart falure, kidney falure etc.

this is oversimplified but if we were programmed to die then we would all die around the same time but we dont 150 years ago the average life expectancy for a man in the uk was 45, now its around 70 due to better healthcare, and the latest thinking is that someone who is 45 today has a good chance to live to 125-150 with continued advances in medical science.

[Necron2.0]

Well, as has been stated, this has gone off topic, and I'm a little sorry I brought it up, but ....

It's a very fine hair to split - whether someone dies of old age directly, or because of diseases that only affect people in "old age." As with someone suffering from Werner Syndrome, old age is relative. At twenty chronological years they suffer from all the diseases and afflictions of someone in their 80's or 90's. There has been a ton of research into this, and it all points to aging being almost entirely down to the setting of your internal clock, and not so much your actual chronological age or the toxins that might accumulate over time. Your internal clock is in your cells, and when the cells believe they are old, you show signs of being old. That is what happens in Werner Syndrome. The cells prematurely become "old." Research suggests this is due to the telemere strands in the cells shrinking prematurely, although (as I understand it) it is not conclusive yet.

+++++++++++

Now, with respect to Chaos Necrons, as someone has mentioned I'd expect C'tan would be immune to the effects of chaos, just because they're already gods in their own right. However, seeing as there are only four C'tan in existence, I'm certain there are many, MANY tomb worlds in the galaxy without a resident C'tan. If one of these worlds were sucked into the Eye of Terror, the world itself would become a mesh of Chaos and Necron horror, and I could see demons arising on the world taking on aspects of the C'tan.

[gcsmith]

Yh telmere strands, :) seen in a book series written by a physist that uses theoretical science in possibly ways, such as telmeres to prevent death :) and using it to cause almost instant death.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

well yes they could, after all a necron is a soul construct and a soul can be corrupted according to warhammer, tho due to no psychic glimmer, like tau it would be like a wave trying to erode a cliff. Long and boring, tho not impossible, and time can be bent in the eye of terror.

Are you certain they are a soul construct? As I understand it, when the C'Tan tricked the Necrontyr into giving up their organic bodies they feasted on the lifeforce/energy. All that was transferred across were the minds, which can be replicated via synthetic neural architecture (or whatever the Necrons possess in their living metal bodies. In which case, the Ruinous Powers cannot affect them. Anyway, I thought the Necrontyr had no presence in the Immaterium, and hence no souls.

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Being 'built' before the rise of chaos, and their influence (based off of which of the remaining C'tan which are remaining) being pretty much controlled by the c'tan, I don't think it's possible. Even if their c'tan was consumed by another, I do believe that they would follow whatever brainwashing was their last (being c'tan). The Necrons were pretty much built to do so.

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Are you certain they are a soul construct? As I understand it, when the C'Tan tricked the Necrontyr into giving up their organic bodies they feasted on the lifeforce/energy. All that was transferred across were the minds, which can be replicated via synthetic neural architecture (or whatever the Necrons possess in their living metal bodies. In which case, the Ruinous Powers cannot affect them. Anyway, I thought the Necrontyr had no presence in the Immaterium, and hence no souls.

This is also a good point. No presence in the warp would mean that they are TECHNICALLY not consumable by whatever happens to be in the warp.

[gcsmith]

um I point u to firewarrior novel, The tau have no presence in the warp, either due to 'eldar' gentic engineering or natural evolution in the 40k universe, eitherway the lead tau eventually cries blood for the blood god while trying to annialate this khorne bloodthirster, that and the forces of chaos mention that while its possible, its too impracticle to corrupt them, and due to theorised pheromone control even if a whole army goes chaos, one etheral just goes stop and the army goes back to the greater good.

Also from what ive known, when the Necrotyr pledged their alligence their souls were transferred to the necron bodies.

[Necron2.0]

Having a defined warp presence is not required for Chaos corruption. Either that, or there is serious amounts of confusion among the ranks of 40K writers. As I'd mentioned at the start, there is a book by Dan Abnett in which an STC is corrupted and produces demonic Iron Men. Neither an STC nor an Iron Man has any presence in the warp. So if an Iron Man can be corrupted, surely a Necron could be ... they're practically the same thing after all.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Also from what ive known, when the Necrotyr pledged their alligence their souls were transferred to the necron bodies.

Where does it state that? I am not saying I don't believe you, as I am genuinely interested. According to the Necron codex (pg 25), when the Necrontyr were made into Necrons, their husks were devoured by the C'Tan. Page 63 (one of the best reads in 40k Lore history, in my opinion), notes that the C'Tan consume the soul energy of those they harvest. Hence, it's likely that no souls were transferred - and why would that be the case, given that the bodies are powered with another energy source, and their minds are mechanical? (That is, using the belief that minds don't equate to souls.)

[gcsmith]

I dnt no, I guess that they wouldnt be the same person tho, since a person is more than their memories, i mean if a person dies and you store their memories, that exact person wont be staring out of ur sesors :P

[Cyberscape7]

As far as I see it the necrons and chaos are two sides of the same coin. Where the Chaos gods have complete mastery over the warp the necrons are rulers of the material realm. Plus as its been mentioned the C'tan are "godlike" meaning they have complete control over their servants and themselves. Plus the necrons are "souless" there is no soul to be corrupted by the warp.

[Paul]

There were Chaos Androids though, a million editions ago (by that I mean like 4).

[Necron2.0]

I'm curious where people are getting the notion that only things with "souls" can be corrupted by chaos? As has been noted, there are many examples of soulless items having been corrupted - Iron men, weapons, armor, books, even (to some extent) the Eye of Terror itself. As I understand it, the only thing necessary for something (anything) to be corrupted is that chaos be present in sufficient force.

[JamesP]

Where does it state that? I am not saying I don't believe you, as I am genuinely interested. According to the Necron codex (pg 25), when the Necrontyr were made into Necrons, their husks were devoured by the C'Tan. Page 63 (one of the best reads in 40k Lore history, in my opinion), notes that the C'Tan consume the soul energy of those they harvest. Hence, it's likely that no souls were transferred - and why would that be the case, given that the bodies are powered with another energy source, and their minds are mechanical? (That is, using the belief that minds don't equate to souls.)

I don't have my codex in front of me so I can't reference this but I don't think it's that C'tan consume the soul energy of those they harvest, rather it's the 'life energy'.

There is a sidebar text in the Necron Codex in which a daemon describes to Abaddon how sacrifices are being made to the Void Dragon on Mars (it doesn't name him/it as the Void Dragon but later fluff confirms it) and that daemons are flocking there to devour the soul energy as it is not being consumed in the sacrifice.

The 'life energy' which the C'tan feed on seems to be the biological, rather than spiritual/soul, energy of living things. This includes the energy from the Necrontyr when they were transformed into Necrons. The C'tan were in a win-win situation: they got to devour the energy of their worshippers and keep them 'alive' as warriors and servants to further their domain.

This 'life energy' does appear to be altered somewhat in 'taste' by how a being has been treated, hence the text at the very end about the Outsider driving people mad then devouring them, the Nightbringer hunting and terrifying them before eating them, etc. Or maybe the C'tan just like being nasty to people.

Necrons, their technology and the powers of the C'tan are firmly based in the material world rather than linked to psychic abilities/ sorcery and the Warp. As such, I doubt that souls would even register with them. The C'tan live off the energies of things from the material universe - stars and living beings.

As you noted, I doubt that any souls were transferred. Not because they were devoured though, but because souls are outside the frame of reference of the C'tan and Necron technology. Also as you said, Necrons are mechanical/ technological and have their own energy source. They don't need souls.

This does of course beg the question, where did the Necrontyr's souls go? Are they still somehow 'attached' to the Necron Warriors and other types of Necron? Or were they cut lose when the Necrontyr were transformed into Necrons? If so, where did they go? Were they lost in the warp, to daemonic and other predation, destroyed by the Old Ones or did they somehow coalesce and are still lurking in the immaterium, millions of years later?

[JamesP]

I'm curious where people are getting the notion that only things with "souls" can be corrupted by chaos? As has been noted, there are many examples of soulless items having been corrupted - Iron men, weapons, armor, books, even (to some extent) the Eye of Terror itself. As I understand it, the only thing necessary for something (anything) to be corrupted is that chaos be present in sufficient force.



Absolutely. Resistance to corruption doesn't appear to be based on whether you are a living being or not, it's about resistance to psychic/ sorcerous / Warp-based phenomena. That seems to be based on a number of things - being a sufficiently powerful psyker, having the protection of a very, very powerful entity (e.g. faith in the Emperor), having little or no presence in the Warp (Untouchable, Pariah, Tau) or having some form of artificial protection (Ghost Helm, rune armour, hexagrammic wards, etc.) .

Physical strength does play a part, as does mental strength, as Chaos attacks/ corrupts on physical and mental levels. But its method of attach is psychic/ sorcerous and that's what you need protection again.

A Space Marine would be resistant to damage from conventional disease or radiation because of his enhanced physique and the shielding qualities of his power armour. Any resistance he had to Chaos mutation or Nurglesque diseases would come from mental and spiritual discipline plus any possessions which helped ward off Chaos. His physical strength and armour would play a much lesser role than when he was trying to resist conventional disease or radiation.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

I don't have my codex in front of me so I can't reference this but I don't think it's that C'tan consume the soul energy of those they harvest, rather it's the 'life energy'.

There is a sidebar text in the Necron Codex in which a daemon describes to Abaddon how sacrifices are being made to the Void Dragon on Mars (it doesn't name him/it as the Void Dragon but later fluff confirms it) and that daemons are flocking there to devour the soul energy as it is not being consumed in the sacrifice.

The 'life energy' which the C'tan feed on seems to be the biological, rather than spiritual/soul, energy of living things. This includes the energy from the Necrontyr when they were transformed into Necrons. The C'tan were in a win-win situation: they got to devour the energy of their worshippers and keep them 'alive' as warriors and servants to further their domain.

This 'life energy' does appear to be altered somewhat in 'taste' by how a being has been treated, hence the text at the very end about the Outsider driving people mad then devouring them, the Nightbringer hunting and terrifying them before eating them, etc. Or maybe the C'tan just like being nasty to people.

Necrons, their technology and the powers of the C'tan are firmly based in the material world rather than linked to psychic abilities/ sorcery and the Warp. As such, I doubt that souls would even register with them. The C'tan live off the energies of things from the material universe - stars and living beings.

As you noted, I doubt that any souls were transferred. Not because they were devoured though, but because souls are outside the frame of reference of the C'tan and Necron technology. Also as you said, Necrons are mechanical/ technological and have their own energy source. They don't need souls.

This does of course beg the question, where did the Necrontyr's souls go? Are they still somehow 'attached' to the Necron Warriors and other types of Necron? Or were they cut lose when the Necrontyr were transformed into Necrons? If so, where did they go? Were they lost in the warp, to daemonic and other predation, destroyed by the Old Ones or did they somehow coalesce and are still lurking in the immaterium, millions of years later?

Page 63, paragraph 6. It states that the C'tan are feeding off beams of "soul energy". Whether they fed off the Necrontyr's souls during the transferrence is another thing entirely, however.

Excellent post, by the way.

[JamesP]

Page 63, paragraph 6. It states that the C'tan are feeding off beams of "soul energy". Whether they fed off the Necrontyr's souls during the transferrence is another thing entirely, however.

Excellent post, by the way.

Thanks. I felt sure that there was some material in the Codex that suggested the C'tan fed solely on energy from the material world but probably got that wrong. I'll dig out my copy and have a look just in case but I'm sure you're right.

I do think that C'tan can survive solely on energy from the material world as we have seen Nightbringer going back to his unincarnated-in-living-metal roots and devouring a star (at the end of the Nightbringer novel) and I'm fairly sure that stars in the 40 universe don't have souls. Then again, if stars do have souls everyone is in big trouble as having a soul means that you can be corrupted or possessed by Chaos.

A daemon-possessed star... I've just had an idea for my Rogue Trader campaign (I know there's the Tyrant Sun in Dark Heresy but I came up with something different for that).

I'd still argue that the focus of the C'tan, the Necrons and their technology is in the material world and souls are (mostly) incidental to them, apart from being a yummy treat for the C'tan, compulsive people-eaters that they are.

[Anggul]

I don't think the Iron Men were corrupted by Chaos, I'm pretty sure it was the whole Skynet thing, AI became aggressive toward humans, so rebelled. The daemonic Iron Man you speak of was probably just possessed by a daemon in the same way that a Defiler is, rather than being corrupt and becoming evil.

I'm pretty sure the automatons which are the Necrons are immune to corruption due to their lack of much soul to speak of and their utter subservience to the C'tan. As the C'tan would never turn to chaos (they don't need it's help, and the warp is death to them), I don't think that they ever would. Whilst a Necron Lord is still far more conscious than a warrior, he is still completely subservient to the C'tan, so I don't think you could have an army led by a corrupted Lord either.

[Hive Mind]

If a soul is necessary how do you explain Predators, Vindicators et al with daemon possession? How do you explain daemon engines at all?

[bfmusashi]

The Necron design is very similar to an old 40k design called a Chaos Android, which was a daemon shoved in a robot body. It's unclear if these shells were made by the Dark Mechanicus or Chaos Squats or if they were salvaged sleeping Necrons.
It sounds like a fun army build.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think fluffwise it's impossible for reasons already stated - but that little forgotten niche of Chaos Androids seems like a good enough equivilent - and iv often thought of doing a Chaos Android force myself, much more interesting than the billionth deathguard or worldeaters army IMO.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/9/92/Chaos_Androids.jpg/300px-Chaos_Androids.jpg