Shunt assault

[Fellend]

As I can't write over at the main page, I'll put it here.

Scout states this - Scouts are used to reconnoiter ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from the enemy.

Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction.

Personally I don't see how this is at all possible, I think the rules state quite clearly that any scout can make a normal move, key word being normal.
Not using a specific wargear to teleport.
Of course following sentence comes along with This is done exactly as their movement phase bla bla bla.

Even in the quoted personal teleporters information it says instead of moving. So basically you are doing this by forfitting your normal move, how is this a normal move according to the rules of the movement phase?
If you look at the wording of Turbo boosting it says that they may move up to 24" in the movement phase.
Saying that yes, your normal move is now this much.
Quite different from , Instead of moving.

Rant over: My point is, in what possible way is teleport shunting a normal move? which is all that scouting allows.

[BuFFo]

The only wording that can possibly prevent this goes as follows.

1) You are allowed to use the personal teleporter ability once per GAME.

2) Each Deployment tells you that the GAME BEGINS after you are done with deployment. By the rules, a game does not actually start until after deployment.

Some people claim the "Start the Game!" clause in each Deployment Scenario means something other than actually starting the game, but we play by RAW, and start the game means exactly that; Starting the Game.

- The game has not started
- You cannot use abilities that restrict the use "during the game" yet
- The Game Starts!
- Turn 1 starts, and there you go, now you can Shunt away!

The idea is you cannot do something "during the game" if the rules tell you the game has not even officially started yet.

Remember, turbo boosting does not have this "do it during/per game" clause, so you can use it freely with scouting, hence why this issue never came up before.

[DrWobbles]

exactly what buffo said. key words in shunt move, 'once per game' and game hasn't started yet.

[Fellend]

Okay, I can agree with that, but why, Is my point invalid?

[DrLove42]

I don't think your point is invalid.Ii think what we have is 2 seperate reason why it cannot be done.

As someones said in the comments on the post, trust someone to be developing cheesy game breaking plays before its even out...

[AngelsofDeath]

Just asking, but are these Grey Knights unit choice considered scouts/infiltrators anyway? I have glanced over the codex but could not really read it due to people waiting to look at it as well.

[DrLove42]

They can be given scout from the Grand Masters power, which is conferred onto squads before deployment.

[AngelsofDeath]

They can be given scout from the Grand Masters power, which is conferred onto squads before deployment.

I would concur with BuFFo and normal movement. But just think, you can scout them 6in forward, and then if you win the roll to go first teleport them 30in. Thats 36inches right off the bat that you can use to claim objectives and it gives your opponent something to really worry about.

[DrLove42]

THAT is legal. But when you shunt you can't assault

The "Shunt Punch Scout Doucebaggery" as it shall henceforth be called in my head allows a first turn assault. Which isn't so good. Tau players may as well not bother setting up on the table...

[isotope99]

My personal view on this is that, the phrase 'exactly as in their movement phase' is more specific than 'normal move' and so trumps it. The when does the game begin argument feels a little ambiguous to me as the scout takes place in the limbo after deployment but before first turn.

I expect the FAQ (when it arrives) will specifically disallow this for the reasons discussed below.

12" Scout + 12" move + 6" assault gives you a 30" first turn charge already, so be happy with that.

[bonedale]

GW needs to FAQ the big book and NOT the grey knight book. If they FAQ'd the definition of the term "game" etc. then it would be clear for all units. Then if they wanted they could FAQ turbo-boosting bikes with a "during the game" if they wanted.

[BuFFo]

There is no reason for GW to roll out a house rule about when a game starts when in the actual rules we are told when the game starts.

[Lemt]

My personal view on this is that, the phrase 'exactly as in their movement phase' is more specific than 'normal move' and so trumps it. The when does the game begin argument feels a little ambiguous to me as the scout takes place in the limbo after deployment but before first turn.

I expect the FAQ (when it arrives) will specifically disallow this for the reasons discussed below.

12" Scout + 12" move + 6" assault gives you a 30" first turn charge already, so be happy with that.

I think that 30" turn 1 assault is more than enought without having to resort to rules interpretations.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

The only wording that can possibly prevent this goes as follows.

1) You are allowed to use the personal teleporter ability once per GAME.

2) Each Deployment tells you that the GAME BEGINS after you are done with deployment. By the rules, a game does not actually start until after deployment.

Some people claim the "Start the Game!" clause in each Deployment Scenario means something other than actually starting the game, but we play by RAW, and start the game means exactly that; Starting the Game.

- The game has not started
- You cannot use abilities that restrict the use "during the game" yet
- The Game Starts!
- Turn 1 starts, and there you go, now you can Shunt away!

The idea is you cannot do something "during the game" if the rules tell you the game has not even officially started yet.

Remember, turbo boosting does not have this "do it during/per game" clause, so you can use it freely with scouting, hence why this issue never came up before.


The only problem with that argument, Buffo, is that Smoke Launchers also say "Once per Game" in the description. Yet GW has Faq'd/Clarified that you can use your Smoke Launchers during your Scout move. As well as do things that would normally happen "during the game".

Thus, while you may not agree with the idea, GW has set precedent that "Once per Game" items/abilities/etc may be used.

See below for many things that can happen during a Scout Move and examples of a Scout Move still counting as part of the game:

Q: During the first turn of the game does a scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat
against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Q: If a unit with the Scouts special rule is embarked in a
vehicle, also with the Scouts special rule, can they
disembark after the vehicle has moved as part of their
Scouts move? (p76)
A: Yes, as long as disembarking would be allowed during a
normal Movement phase. For example if the vehicle has
moved flat out they would not be allowed to disembark
(unless specifically stated otherwise)

Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its
Scout move? (p36)
A: Yes.

[Image]

2) Each Deployment tells you that the GAME BEGINS after you are done with deployment. By the rules, a game does not actually start until after deployment.



Scouting occurs after deployment. By your determination, the game has begun.

[wittdooley]

The "Shunt Punch Scout Doucebaggery" as it shall henceforth be called in my head allows a first turn assault. Which isn't so good. Tau players may as well not bother setting up on the table...

Wonderful. In order to save us the trouble of coming up with equally great names for future codex releases, I think we should have an umbrella term, such as the "Goatboy Douchebaggery Equivalent" or something.

God, I'm glad the people I play with play this game to have fun...

[Connjurus]

Solution to the shunt assault:

1) Your opponent declares he is going to teleport for his scout move. He does so. He has first turn. You nod calmly.

2) Your opponent reaches forward to grab his first-turn charging Dreadknight "Yo dawg I heard you like power armor" model.

3) You hit said model with a hammer, and point to the rulebook saying nothing about disallowing you from hitting your opponent's models with a hammer.

[addamsfamily36]

3) You hit said model with a hammer, and point to the rulebook saying nothing about disallowing you from hitting your opponent's models with a hammer.

HAHAHA wow!

[Bean]

Solution to the shunt assault:

1) Your opponent declares he is going to teleport for his scout move. He does so. He has first turn. You nod calmly.

2) Your opponent reaches forward to grab his first-turn charging Dreadknight "Yo dawg I heard you like power armor" model.

3) You hit said model with a hammer, and point to the rulebook saying nothing about disallowing you from hitting your opponent's models with a hammer.

Yes, and then you're charged with destruction of property, you pay for his model (and most likely the time he spent assembling and painting it) and you end up with a misdemeanor on your record. Seems like a good plan.

Smashing other people's models with hammers isn't against the rules, but it is against the law, and (as such) is not recommended.

[Connjurus]

I don't have a sense of humor.

I'm sorry, old Bean.

[Bean]

Yes, because: "if someone annoys you, break their things," is such outstanding comedy. How could I have missed that? :rolleyes:

[Connjurus]

Only Buzz Killingtons point out logical fallacies in jokes that clearly aren't serious.

And you seem to be quite the spinner of the hum'rous yarn.

[wittdooley]

Yes, and then you're charged with destruction of property, you pay for his model (and most likely the time he spent assembling and painting it) and you end up with a misdemeanor on your record. Seems like a good plan.

Smashing other people's models with hammers isn't against the rules, but it is against the law, and (as such) is not recommended.

When this happens, please let me know, call me, and put me on speakerphone so I can listen to the hilarity bound to ensue from an attempted prosecution of this.

Cop: "He broke your what, sir?"

Broken Dreadknight Guy: "My plastic model of a dude in a mech suit."

Cop: "Your what?"

Broken Dreadknight Guy: "See here. My plastic model of a dude in a mech suit."

Cop: "Should I call your mom, or is it okay if you just claim your dad can beat up his dad?"

[Connjurus]

When this happens, please let me know, call me, and put me on speakerphone so I can listen to the hilarity bound to ensue from an attempted prosecution of this.

Cop: "He broke your what, sir?"

Broken Dreadknight Guy: "My plastic model of a dude in a mech suit."

Cop: "Your what?"

Broken Dreadknight Guy: "See here. My plastic model of a dude in a mech suit."

Cop: "Should I call your mom, or is it okay if you just claim your dad can beat up his dad?"

I like you.

[Bean]

When this happens, please let me know, call me, and put me on speakerphone so I can listen to the hilarity bound to ensue from an attempted prosecution of this.

Cop: "He broke your what, sir?"

Broken Dreadknight Guy: "My plastic model of a dude in a mech suit."

Cop: "Your what?"

Broken Dreadknight Guy: "See here. My plastic model of a dude in a mech suit."

Cop: "Should I call your mom, or is it okay if you just claim your dad can beat up his dad?"

Though this discussion is more than pointless, do you really think that it's okay to destroy other people's property as long as that property is something a police officer is likely to find a little silly? Do you really think so little of police officers as a class that you expect them to think that way?

We all know that, though these little plastic toys seem can seem quite silly and worthless to outsiders, they're not worthless to us or to other people who participate in the hobby. A well-painted model of that type could easily have a fair market value of a hundred bucks. If someone stole a hundred-dollar stereo from you, you would expect the law to back up your claim for redress--a plastic toy is no different.

I mean, what if it were a Reaver Titan--they're far more overpowered than a first turn assault from a Dreadknight, and a painted Reaver Titan can easily be worth more than some cars.


I know he wasn't being serious. His "joke," though, just wasn't funny. It was stupid if you take it seriously, and it was stupid if you take it as a joke. Frankly, your attempt to defend it as if it were serious is even more stupid still. Your position, here, is obviously wrong.


Go for it. Go and smash someone's model with a hammer. Give me a call, and let me know how it works out for you. I'll be the one laughing.

Also, Connjurus, I didn't point out a "logical fallacy" (though it's cute that you apparently don't know what that means). Your joke just wasn't funny. It seemed to cry out for a mocking, and I obliged. You're welcome.

[Connjurus]

You need to lighten up, man. So you thought the joke wasn't funny, that's cool. Humor's weird in that different people are amused by different things. I'm sure others will find it to not be amusing as well, but I'm willing to bet most of them will think to themselves, "Well that's not very funny," and then go to another thread.

[L192837465]

The only problem with that argument, Buffo, is that Smoke Launchers also say "Once per Game" in the description. Yet GW has Faq'd/Clarified that you can use your Smoke Launchers during your Scout move. As well as do things that would normally happen "during the game".

Thus, while you may not agree with the idea, GW has set precedent that "Once per Game" items/abilities/etc may be used.

See below for many things that can happen during a Scout Move and examples of a Scout Move still counting as part of the game:

Q: During the first turn of the game does a scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat
against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes.

Q: If a unit with the Scouts special rule is embarked in a
vehicle, also with the Scouts special rule, can they
disembark after the vehicle has moved as part of their
Scouts move? (p76)
A: Yes, as long as disembarking would be allowed during a
normal Movement phase. For example if the vehicle has
moved flat out they would not be allowed to disembark
(unless specifically stated otherwise)

Q: Can a Baal Predator use smoke launchers during its
Scout move? (p36)
A: Yes.

100% agree. I also find it cute that Buffo hasn't responded to your rebuttal. Probably because it's entirely correct.

[gcsmith]

I think the main argument of special move vs normal move is the best reason against it

[wittdooley]

Though this discussion is more than pointless, do you really think that it's okay to destroy other people's property as long as that property is something a police officer is likely to find a little silly? Do you really think so little of police officers as a class that you expect them to think that way?

We all know that, though these little plastic toys seem can seem quite silly and worthless to outsiders, they're not worthless to us or to other people who participate in the hobby. A well-painted model of that type could easily have a fair market value of a hundred bucks. If someone stole a hundred-dollar stereo from you, you would expect the law to back up your claim for redress--a plastic toy is no different.

I mean, what if it were a Reaver Titan--they're far more overpowered than a first turn assault from a Dreadknight, and a painted Reaver Titan can easily be worth more than some cars.


I know he wasn't being serious. His "joke," though, just wasn't funny. It was stupid if you take it seriously, and it was stupid if you take it as a joke. Frankly, your attempt to defend it as if it were serious is even more stupid still. Your position, here, is obviously wrong.


Go for it. Go and smash someone's model with a hammer. Give me a call, and let me know how it works out for you. I'll be the one laughing.

Also, Connjurus, I didn't point out a "logical fallacy" (though it's cute that you apparently don't know what that means). Your joke just wasn't funny. It seemed to cry out for a mocking, and I obliged. You're welcome.

Dude, lighten up. The entire situation I presented is predicated on the extremely unlikely scenario that someone is going to purposely bust up your model in the first place.

If the situation happened, I'd be more likely to be prosecuted for assault, as I would puch said assbag in the face.

[addamsfamily36]

100% agree. I also find it cute that Buffo hasn't responded to your rebuttal. Probably because it's entirely correct.

Wow, give the guy a chance.

Also, Bean your reading way far in to the joke.

No one is actually smashing other peoples property with a hammer. It's like when comedians tell racist jokes or mock certain topics. It's not real. It's humor.

Also if someone did smash your model with a hammer, just take a hammer to their entire army, preferably a sledge hammer.

[Bean]

Sorry. I just get annoyed by the "break people's stuff when they do things you don't like" jokes that seem all-too-common in this sort of discussion.

[Connjurus]

It's cool, man. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

[Mycroft Holmes]

Sorry. I just get annoyed by the "break people's stuff when they do things you don't like" jokes that seem all-too-common in this sort of discussion.

Agreed; it's the same stupid joke I hear over and over from outside the hobby.

I expect more out of people in the hobby.

Mycroft

[Tynskel]

Though this discussion is more than pointless, do you really think that it's okay to destroy other people's property as long as that property is something a police officer is likely to find a little silly? Do you really think so little of police officers as a class that you expect them to think that way?

We all know that, though these little plastic toys seem can seem quite silly and worthless to outsiders, they're not worthless to us or to other people who participate in the hobby. A well-painted model of that type could easily have a fair market value of a hundred bucks. If someone stole a hundred-dollar stereo from you, you would expect the law to back up your claim for redress--a plastic toy is no different.

I mean, what if it were a Reaver Titan--they're far more overpowered than a first turn assault from a Dreadknight, and a painted Reaver Titan can easily be worth more than some cars.


I know he wasn't being serious. His "joke," though, just wasn't funny. It was stupid if you take it seriously, and it was stupid if you take it as a joke. Frankly, your attempt to defend it as if it were serious is even more stupid still. Your position, here, is obviously wrong.


Go for it. Go and smash someone's model with a hammer. Give me a call, and let me know how it works out for you. I'll be the one laughing.

Also, Connjurus, I didn't point out a "logical fallacy" (though it's cute that you apparently don't know what that means). Your joke just wasn't funny. It seemed to cry out for a mocking, and I obliged. You're welcome.

Sounds like this guy got his models smashed by a hammer and decided to become a cop to stop model smashing.

[AngelsofDeath]

I just take a model as hostage if you try to cheat me...

"Hey have you seen my model?" Nope...:rolleyes:

[Bean]

Sounds like this guy got his models smashed by a hammer and decided to become a cop to stop model smashing.

Neither.

[wittdooley]

I expect more out of people in the hobby.

Mycroft

You're kidding, right? I've seen more pettiness in this hobby than in my wife's 4th grade classroom.

[Connjurus]

Sounds like this guy got his models smashed by a hammer and decided to become a cop to stop model smashing.

Come hug me, bro. I lol'd.

[DarkLink]

I gotta agree with Bean. I really don't find "jokes" about criminal acts funny. That's half the reason I can't stand Ward-whiners, because half the time the person is talking about how Ward should burn in hell for all of eternity and that his family should be burned at the stake because he ruined my game of war barbies, that jerk. Really? Not cool. Seriously, try something a little more tasteful. You can start with fart jokes. Work your way up from there.

[thecactusman17]

I gotta agree with Bean. I really don't find "jokes" about criminal acts funny. That's half the reason I can't stand Ward-whiners, because half the time the person is talking about how Ward should burn in hell for all of eternity and that his family should be burned at the stake because he ruined my game of war barbies, that jerk. Really? Not cool. Seriously, try something a little more tasteful. You can start with fart jokes. Work your way up from there.

You would be looked at strangely by most of the people I know in the hobby (I play frequently at three different stores and buy at about 5 in the San Francisco area). But a person is entitled to their own opinions, especially on this sort of subject. But the ultimate point remains: It was a joke. Maybe it was poorly received, but nobody is actually suggesting that anyone even attempt or consider damaging or destroying somebody else's property here. It's like getting mad at Jonathan Swift for proposing cannibalism of poor Irish children in "A Modest Proposal."

As to the original topic:

I am in full agreement with Venerable Rhadamanthus, unless and until such time as GW FAQs this ability to suggest anything else. Once per game abilities and abilities that would normally need to be performed during a game turn have ALWAYS been allowed during the scouts move. I suspect that were such an awkward situation to occur, you could even theoretically use the scout move to activate one of the "damage during movement" abilities of Reaver Jetbikes, Ravagers, and Raiders.

Remember that unlike in previous games, the current edition allows units to do any number of things to ultimately negate this ability. Including placing all of your units into reserve even if they have no specific alternate entry rules, tank shocking out of reserve, and deep striking during any normal game mission. Just because your opponent can potentially place units into your own backfield does not mean he is guaranteed a victory, or even a critical first strike. We are talking about Monstrous Creatures here, any number of placement scenarios prevents him from getting that assault off to begin with (unless you are one of those poor sops who only plays on hill, crater and forest terrain). Heck, in one third of all standard missions the player won't even be allowed to place the models in question on the board, much less give them a scout move!

[BuFFo]

100% agree. I also find it cute that Buffo hasn't responded to your rebuttal. Probably because it's entirely correct.

Wrong.

Those FAQ answers pertain to those FAQ answers for the Blood Angels Army only. I really am not even going to defend that statement any further if you don't understand that concept.

Also, I was watching porno all day. Some of us have lives outside this forum, you know.

[addamsfamily36]

Also, I was watching porno all day. Some of us have lives outside this forum, you kno

lol

[Fellend]

Okay, now we've wasted three pages, between two grown men arguing over a bad joke (bad because it wasn't really funny not because it's theoretically illegal). can you guys please continue that in private or in another thread?

To me, I still haven't seen anything that would allow you use a wargear which replaces the movement phase and call that a normal move.


Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving.

To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from the enemy.

To me this is quite clear. During your scout move you are allowed to make one normal move. Normal being the keyword. one move which follows the rules for the movement phase according to which type of unit you are, infantry, jump infantry, vehicle, bike and so on.

My only problem with this is as some people have pointed out there are cases where things are allowed to be done which would seem out of place with that interpetation. I would very much like a discussion on why or why not I'm wrong (so can you please keep the childishness in another thread? thank you)

[ArchonPhelps]

Those FAQ answers pertain to those FAQ answers for the Blood Angels Army only. I really am not even going to defend that statement any further if you don't understand that concept.

Also, I was watching porno all day. Some of us have lives outside this forum, you know.

I think BuFFo wins on that one since he is correct and the Vamp's FAQ.

I always thought of you as a beer drinker more than Porno

[SeattleDV8]

Wrong.

Those FAQ answers pertain to those FAQ answers for the Blood Angels Army only. I really am not even going to defend that statement any further if you don't understand that concept.
Oh irony, these two are from the BRB FAQ.
"Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move.
Q: During the first turn of the game does a scout move
count as the preceding Movement phase when working
out any saves from shooting, for example the 3+ cover
save from turbo-boosting, and the to hit rolls in combat
against vehicles? (p76)
A: Yes."

So who doesn't get the concept?


Also, I was watching porno all day. Some of us have lives outside this forum, you know.
Well of course, at least it was something important.

As to the smoke,what that shows us though is that 'one use per game' items may be used before the battle (first turn) begins.

BA FAQ or not the smoke launcher is a basic bit of wargear from the BRB.

Sorry kids,but this is alreadly a legal move, i.e. bikers with the scout rule.

[Fellend]

Bikers with scout is a different thing because of the wording of the turboboosting. already posted it so I won't do it again, basically it says, your normal move is now 24" if you wish.

So turboboosting is not really relevant, more relevant is smoke launchers and other simular pieces of wargear

[SeattleDV8]

Yes but that doesn't change the fact that turbo-boosting is a special rule.
Certain units can use it in their movement phase, just like a GK unit with the shunt.
The 'normal move' point is therefore moot.

[DarkLink]

It's like getting mad at Jonathan Swift for proposing cannibalism of poor Irish children in "A Modest Proposal."

Not really. "A Modest Proposal" is a satire that relies on reductio ad absurdum to argue a point. The whole point of a satire is to construe some social convention or argument in such a way that makes people laugh, yet think "wow, that's horrible".

A joke about physically assaulting someone is a joke about physically assaulting someone. Whether or not someone finds it acceptable depends solely on whether or not they find it funny.

If I were playing someone I didn't know well, and they said something to the effect of "if your guy makes one more armor save I'm going to smash it with a hammer", then tried to pass it off as a joke, I probably wouldn't be laughing.



Once per game abilities and abilities that would normally need to be performed during a game turn have ALWAYS been allowed during the scouts move. I suspect that were such an awkward situation to occur, you could even theoretically use the scout move to activate one of the "damage during movement" abilities of Reaver Jetbikes, Ravagers, and Raiders.


Yes. Seeing as Smoke is allowed to be used while Scouting, as mentioned earlier, precedent is set that you may Shunt while Scouting.

[hisdudeness]

To chime in and add a vote:

I believe it is possible to shunt as part of a scout move. But here is the catch, shunt counts as being used for the game. And as with smoke (gaining a cover save the first turn of the game) the shunted unit will not be able to assault nor be able to use shunt again that game.

The bonus/penalties are carried over, as shown by the smoke FAQ.

[L192837465]

To chime in and add a vote:

I believe it is possible to shunt as part of a scout move. But here is the catch, shunt counts as being used for the game. And as with smoke (gaining a cover save the first turn of the game) the shunted unit will not be able to assault nor be able to use shunt again that game.

The bonus/penalties are carried over, as shown by the smoke FAQ.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. scout move: shunt to 12" away from enemy model, turn one: 12" move, shoot, 6" assault.

[Skragger]

Solution to the shunt assault:

1) Your opponent declares he is going to teleport for his scout move. He does so. He has first turn. You nod calmly.

2) Your opponent reaches forward to grab his first-turn charging Dreadknight "Yo dawg I heard you like power armor" model.

3) You hit said model with a hammer, and point to the rulebook saying nothing about disallowing you from hitting your opponent's models with a hammer.

I have this argument with my brother a lot. I call it "the airbud clause" which states "if it doesn't specifically say you "cant", you can". Which is silly, otherwise the rulebook would be about 8X the size and 12X the price knowing GWs pricing strategies...

[DrLove42]

Personally i Hope it can't be done. Its just annoying

Personally i'm against the ability for a unit to offer no competition and destroy an important unit without any kind of resistance or trouble. Drop pods with sternguard that autocorrect so theres no danger in DS, valks with meltatroopers and now this. The ability to remove the lynchpin unit in an opponents army without any kind of defense just makes a game unfun for the guy who gets s*** it on in turn 1.

If you want to use it, keep it for competitve play. That way i never have to play anyone who'd be so douchy...

[hisdudeness]

I don't think anyone is arguing that. scout move: shunt to 12" away from enemy model, turn one: 12" move, shoot, 6" assault.


But some people are claiming some of what I said (not here but across the forum circuit) so I added it to this thread for reference and consideration.

As far as the issue at hand, I fail to see where the problem is. Units can already move 12" away, normal move and then assault first turn, the only difference is that the move to the 12" bubble is 6" inches longer. And then only Interceptor Squads would be able to do it.

Just as with ever other new tactic, know and plan for it. Place your 'lynchpin' unit(s) in a way that the shunting unit can't get to it. The move still has to stay 12" away the entire 30" shunt move which is measured straight line.


Most of the reasons against were the same reasons against turboboosting. i.e. people crying about some new "overpowered" tactic that changes the way they have to play thier army.

[DarkLink]

Well, Dreadknights can do it, too.

[hisdudeness]

A Dreadknight can move 12" in the movement phase?!?

[Lerra]

If you buy the upgrade that allows you to shunt, the dreadknight can move like jump infantry. So yes, 30" shunt, then 12" move and assault.

[Tynskel]

And like just about any other monsterous creature, it is pricey to get it to fly.

[SeattleDV8]

If it takes the Teleporter upgrade it becomes (moves like?) jump infantry

[hisdudeness]

I thought the personal teleporter just gave the shunt ability? Can you be jump infantry and MC? Who does that work?


Edit: Just kidding, I was going to see if some one would bite on the stupid argument from other threads and forums that dreadknight can't be both. I forgot about Dreadknights and PTs.

[Tynskel]

uh. Dude, any monsterous creatures with 'wings' are 'jump' infantry.

[DarkLink]

If it takes the Teleporter upgrade it becomes (moves like?) jump infantry

I don't like how they word it, since Storm Ravens can transport Jump Infantry, and the rule makes it sound almost as if the Dreadknight becomes just plain Jump Infantry. Moves as Jump Infantry makes the most sense, especially considering that Monstrous Creatures are basically Infantry with a few extra rules.

[Tynskel]

you do not lose your monsterous creature status by gaining jump infantry.

[thecactusman17]

When an upgrade gives you a new unit type, no prior GW ruling suggests that you lose an old rule type unless specifically stated in the rule description. Some units can gain new unit rules, particularly Independant Character, by satisfying certain conditions mid-game.

[LittleBird]

I talked to one of the GK playtesters and he said that they did not playtest with a scout-shunt being possible. This doesn't mean that it won't be allowed in the end, only that the codex was balanced under the assumption that scout-shunts don't happen. No one really thought of it during the playtest.

[Lemt]

I talked to one of the GK playtesters and he said that they did not playtest with a scout-shunt being possible. This doesn't mean that it won't be allowed in the end, only that the codex was balanced under the assumption that scout-shunts don't happen. No one really thought of it during the playtest.

Figures.
:rolleyes:

Best playtesting ever?

[DarkLink]

The playtesters don't think of a lot of things that you can do with each of the new codices. There would be a lot shorter FAQs if they did.

Incidentally, on Bolter and Chainsword they've already put together a list of questions for GW. Before the codex is even released. Yeah...

Here they are:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=224872

Wargear

1: Do a pair of Nemesis Falcions give +1A (from thier special rule), or +2A (from thier rule plus using two 1 handed CCWs) in total?

2: What happens if you Master Craft a Template weapon, such as a Grandmaster Master Crafting an Incinerator? Currently, there are no rules for this so it would seem that MC has no effect on template weapons, and the purchase would be wasted. Is this correct? How about Master Crafting a Grenade?

3: How do Nemesis Doomfists work for the Nemesis DreadKnight? Not being a Walker, do these double the NDK Strength?

4: Do Servo Skulls reduce the scatter distance for Orbital Strike Relay blasts that land within 12" of them?

5: Do the effects of Servo Skulls stack? If a blast lands within 12" of two of them, or a Unit DS's within 12" of two (or more), is the Scatter reduced by additional 1d6's?

6: If an enemy unit deep strikes onto a servo skull is it a mishap or does the servo skull retreat? What about friendly units?

7: Can you Master Craft a Grenade? What about an Orbital Strike Relay? Silly, I know, but it says it's treated as a weapon. And listed with the rest of the Weapons.

8: Can the once-per-game 30" shunt move for Personal Teleporters be used as part of a Scout move? (i.e. using the Grand Strategy to give Interceptor Squads and/or Dread Knights Scout).

9: Does the Orbital Strike Relay weapon of a GKGM or Techmarine attached to a unit contiaining at least 1 Jokaero Weaponsmith bebefit from thier 'Inconceivable Customisation'? Can your Orbital Strike gain the Rending property from this ability?

10: Is the Orbital Strike weapon a Barrage weapon?

11: Personal Teleported description says that the unit can make a 30" movement in any direction instead of making a normal movement. Well, if an IC is attached we know that the normal movement allowed would be 6", instead of 12" (Limited to the slowest speed in the unit). But the special rule says nothing about not working with attached ICs (as, on the contrary, other rules do, like Heroic Intervention or Descent of Angels). Thus, it seems legal to attach an IC and make a 30" movement, instead of accomplishing a 6" normal one. Is this correct?

12: Can a unit with a Nul Rod cast psychic powers providing they don't affect there own unit? eg Smite

13: If a unit is firing plasma weapons at a unit with a psyker in it using the psyocculum within 12" of a plasma syphon, what's it's BS?

14: If an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor has a Nemisis Daemon Hammer and a Force Weapon does it get the +1 attack for 2 CCWs? Are Nemisis Daemon Hammers, force weapons or thunder hammers (or both) for working out whether they get an aditional close combat attack?

15: If an Inquisitor is armed with a Daemonblade but is not a psyker what is the effect of an 11-12 on the chart? If a model is armed with a Daemonblade and a special weapon (eg force weapon) do they still have to use the special weapon in close combat?

16: If a stubbon unit is assaulted by (or assaults) a unit with psychotroke grenades is their leadership modified by the 'They're Horrible' result? How does this interact with Ork Mob rule? Does the psychotroke grenades' 'The world is spinning' override Eldar Banshee masks? If 2 units, both with Psychotroke grenades assualt a single unit do the results stack.

17: Is the Initiative test for the brain mines taken on unmodified Initiative or do we factor in modifiers like FC, Psykout Grenades etc?

18: Since there are wargear items that modify leadership, is the leadership used for the psychic hood unmodified? This may have to be done on a codex by codex basis.

19: Are Pintle mounted Storm Bolters with Psycannon Bolts, main or defensive weapons? Their strength makes them main, but the rules list them as 'an additional defensive weapon'. Is the Basic storm bolter on the rhino considered to be pintle mounted?



Units

1: Do Henchmen made Troops by Inquisitor Coteaz's 'Lord of Formosa' rule take up a FoC slot? Or do they retain the Elite versions property of not taking a FoC slot?

2: What initiative step is the hyperstone maze performed at? At what point do you count the number of wounds the model has, so if attacks are made simultanously and cause wounds do they count? How many wounds do we count for combat res?

3: If units that arrive in a transport that used the deepstrike rule count as deepstriking can Coteaz's "I've been expecting you" be used to target the unit and can he target the unit and the transport or must he choose?

4: What happens to the Jokaero 'Inconceivable Customisation' ability when you have 6 or more Jokaero in the unit? When you have 6 Jokaero in a unit you are guaranteed to roll the 6+ option, when you roll again you have no other choice but to continually take the 6+ option which makes you roll again and you're stuck in a loop. If you ignore the bonus, then you can risk getting option 1 which is nothing happens, which is one of the reasons to take more than one so you don't get that option. What do you do then?

5: More 'Inconceivable Customisation' Questions. The improvement only happens at the deployment, does it affect the whole unit of henchmen or does it also affect ICs attached during deployment? Do those bonuses go away if the IC leaves the henchmen unit or do they stay? Does another IC joining the henchmen unit later on get these bonuses? Would it be able to modify a Daemon Hosts attacks? Would it be able to modify Psychic Barrage?

6: If you have multiple Grand Masters (including Mordrak and Draigo) in your army, can you use multiple 'The Grand Strategies'? Or are you limited on only one, regardless of how many Grand Masters you have?

7: As the Dark Eldar Cruicible of Malediction forces a Leadership test, are Grey Kngiht vechiles effected by this? If they are and they fail, are they removed from play? If the vehicle is also a Transport, what happens to any embarked units? Are they also removed from play?

8: Is the hunter killer missile on the chimera really BS4 or is that a mistake?
9: For the dreadknight's heavy incinerator do we measure the range from the gun on the model as suggested by the codex or the base as is normal with monstrous creatures?

10: The techmarine can take digital weapons, do the servo arms benefit from them?

11: If an enemy unit chooses to target, in the shooting phase, a culexus assassin, but fails their leadership test can they do any of the following; Run? Assault the assassin the following assault phase? Fire different weapons/weapon profiles than the ones they would have shot the assassin with? Split their fire differently (eg long fangs)? Use smoke launchers?

12: Is FNP considered a save for the purposes of Valaria's Rune's of destiny?

13: If Valeria rolls a double 1,2, or 3 with her 2 bonus attacks are they disgarded because she wouldn't have counted as hitting herself due to the WS chart? Do any wounds she causes on herself count towards combat res and if so to who's side?

14: Can the Calladius Assassin be deployed normally or must it use the Polymorphine?

15: Polymorphine: it states it can be used against any enemy "unit", which by RAW included vehicles. Which Arc would the hit go against? As the Callidus is placed after the hits are resolved, you can't use that as a basis.

16: Polymorphine: If the wounds from Polymorphine wipe out a unit, is the Callidus automatically killed since she cannot be placed within 3" of anyone? Or would she suffer a deep strike mishap, potentially coming back again next round on another unit? What happens if there are no enemy units on the board when she comes out of reserve?

17: If the brotherhood champion is in close combat with a unit of monstrous creatures and chooses the Rapier Strike stance can he only kill 1 model from the unit or are wounds allocated as normal? Can he use this ability to snipe out monstrous creatures out of units?

18: Does the hammer of righteousness ability affect both shooting and close combat attacks?

19: Can the grand master's grand strategy affect assassins, Crowe, and Mordrak (if he doesn't take any ghost knights), who are listed as characters but not Independent ones? What about allies?

20: Do we use the clarifications on combat squads from the space marine FAQ?

21: If an IC is joined to a unit with the brotherhood banner and the banner activates the force weapons, does the IC have to activate his? At what Initiative step is this performed, the IC may have a higher or lower Initiative? What happens if the IC has run out of powers he can cast for that turn?

22: Is Mordrak considered to be the justicar in his unit of ghost knights or is it always randomly determined? If so can he cast a different psychic power to his unit?

23: If Justicar Thawn is taken, can he use psychic powers separate to his unit? He's mastery level 2, but both psychic powers he has are normally squad based ones.



Psychic Powers

1: Do squads deep striking by being targetted by 'The Summoning' scatter? If so, are they effected by Teleport Homers, as they aren't explicitly listed as DSing by means of Teleoprtation?

2: Can you cast the summoning on units that are falling back? Can you cast it on your own unit?

3: It is written that The Summoning power has to be used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. Does it refer to the Librarian movement, and consequently it is usable immediately after a Deep Strike deployment of the Librarian, or to the Librarian player movement phase, and consequently it is not usable in the turn in which the Librarian arrives through Deep Strike?

4: For the psychic power Dark Excommunication, what exactly qualifies as "Daemonic Gifts"?

5: Astral Aim: The wording states that the enemy unit "has a 4+ cover save that cannot be modified". If I used an incinerator (within range), would the incinerator template effect still ignore the cover save (does "ignoring" a cover save count as "modifying" it)? Would the entry that the enemy unit "has a 4+ cover save" override better covers saves - ie from bolstered ruins or from turbo boosting?

6: Astral Aim allows a Purgation squad to ignore LoS. Can a Purgation Squad embarked on a vehicle use Astral Aim to shoot more wepaons than would be allowed by any Fire Points?

7: Can you intentionally use the 'Astral Aim' psychic power to reduce cover saves of units you have a clear line of sight to?

8: Can we stack psychic powers like the 'strength of titan' meaning our units could possibly receive a +3S & +3D6 for vehicle penetration?


9: Does the shrouding psychic power affect vehicles and/or monstrous creatures? Currently vehicles need to be obscured to get a cover save which the power doesn't state, and it doesn't appear to override the 50% rule for MCs.

10: I assume the psker's Psychic Barrage cannot go above strength 10 or below ap1. But if you have additional psykers in the unit are they forced to contribute to the attack? Also if more than 1 psyker is in the unit can any additional models fire their laspistols or are they all considered to be firing a weapon? Which psyker is used to measure to see if a psychic hood is in range? If the unit is in a rhino/chimera is the number of psykers contributing limited to fire points?

11: What initiative value do you use for the warp rift psychic power, is it the majority or the best?

12: If a psyker has mastery level 2 or more can they cast the same power more than once per turn, assuming they aren’t shooting attacks, if the first casting was unsuccessful?



Definitions

The following things need official definitions of what they are.
1: Psykers
2: Daemons
3: Daemonic Gifts
4: Open Terrain (for the sanctuary power)
5: Plasma weaponry (for the siphon)



Layout

1: The multi laser's stat line is missing from the quick reference.



Answered Questions

1: Does a Vindicare Shieldbreaker round remove all Invulnerable Saves granted by wargear, or one per shot? For example a Space Marine Captain with both an Iron Halo and a Storm Shield.

It removes both ‘the model loses all invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear’.


2: Can you define what a character is for the purposes of the Hyperstone maze? Could it for example affect Bjorn the Fell Handed or Mephiston?

Page 47 of the rulebook defines a character as any model with the IC special rule or squad sergeants.


3: Can units embarks in Transports be summoned with 'The Summoning'?

From the Rulebook FAQ:
Q: Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport? (p50)
A: For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported


4: Does Mordrak's squad and Mordrak each count as a kill point?

No, Mordrak would be worth an additional kill point if he was an IC and his unit was a retinue. However because he lacks the IC special rule he is merely treated as an upgrade character for his unit. If you think of him more like the warlock for an eldar guardians unit, except instead of having an option of buying the warlock (Mordrak) to go with the guardians (ghosts) it works in reverse, you buy him first then his unit is the optional part. (Sorry about using the Eldar as an example, but I was struggling to find anything power armoured to use)


5: How does Quickening Initiative bonus work with tyranid Lash whips? How does Nemesis Force Halberds Initiative bonus work with tyranid Lash whips?

From the Tyranid FAQ:
Q:If a model with Lash Whips is attacking a model with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee Mask, etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified?
A: The Lash Whips will reduce an enemy model’s initiative to 1 before any other modifiers are applied. So, a model with Furious Charge that assaults a Tyranid with Lash Whips will strike at Initiative 2