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Lemt
03-18-2011, 03:29 PM
DISCLAMER
This review is done reading the final codex. I won't give details about the codex itself, and I don't have any way to let you see the codex. If you want to see it, go to your local GW store, or pre-order it!
In this review I'll write about each unit and my thoughts on them, so your opinions may differ somewhat from mine. Feel free to discuss anything you want!


HEADQUARTERS
Lord Kaldor Draigo: A very expensive HQ choice, his biggest strength is turning Paladins into Troops. However, Paladins are expensive, and spending more than the cost of a Land Raider to make costly units troops in an army that already has scoring Terminators may be overkill. However, he can be a nice option for cheap armies, as you will need very few miniatures to fill any list. For the cost of the Deceiver you can have 5 Paladins that hit fast and hard with Master-Crafted weapons, and for a bit more you can make their attacks inflict Instant Death and have extra attacks. So don't ignore this guy.
Grand Master Mordrak and Ghost Knights: Now this is something else. He's also expensive, costing as much as a Storm Raven. However, he has quite a lot of uses. He can buy a retinue of Ghosts (at the same cost as normal Terminators). He can also arrive like a non-scattering drop pod on your first turn with his whole unit. Consider him a 400+ point Deathstar. The Ghosts are just as good as Termies, except they don't have the option of taking heavy weapons. But they prevent Mordrak from being focused in CC, and are the only way to get him inside a unit since he's not an IC. However, if you give him Ghosts then you can't make them scoring. If he's in a group of Ghosts you can wound him to try to get more of his buddies. The rules for this seem to imply that if he takes more wounds at once, you have better chances of getting more Ghosts. Ideally you want to give him 3 wounds, so he'll live to tell the tale but you'll get 3 Ghosts out of the trouble.
Brother-Captain Stern: I don't think there's any reason to pick him over other HQ choices. He costs as much as Mordrak, but doesn't have the advantages of a Grand Master (AKA making anything scoring). His stats are worse that that of a Grand Master too, so I'd ignore this HQ completely. Even his pecial rules can hurt you as much as the enemy.
Castellan Crowe: Damn I wish he was any good. He makes Purifiers Troops choices, and Purifiers are awesome. However, he isn't an IC, and he gives any enemy that assaults him Furious Charge and then some. I think he's OK, but I wouldn't take him under 1500 points. Or I'd hide him inside a Razorback or something. With him only having 2 wounds don't expect to see him last long in a fight.
Grand Master: Hell yeah. Grand Masters have sweet rules, and great gear options to boot. Expect to see this bad boy a lot, and even two in 2k+ games. Remember that, although his rule allows you to make Walkers counts as Troops, 5th edition rules specify that vehicles can't be scoring even if they ARE troops (page 90 of the 5th ed. rulebook). In Annihilation games he can also be a great asset, giving units counter-attack or the scouts special rule. Re-rolling 1s to wound isn't that useful, unless you want to make sure a unit with all fists and hammers gets those wounds on an enemy. And he can also let you modify reserve rolls, albeit only your own.
Grey Knight Brother-Captain: For a few more points you have a Grand Master. That'll give you better stats, better rules, and the option to be a better Psyker. So scrape some points off and get a Grand Master.
Brotherhood Champion: This, and not Brother-Captains, is the cheap alternative to Grand Masters. Champions are better melee fighters than GMs, and cost a ton less. So if you don't want (or need) the extra rules the GM provides, this is a great HQ choice. Note, however, that he has a single wound so he WILL die. I'd say the best way to use him would be in a unit with Halberds. Assault, hit first, and hope to wipe out the enemy, with a little help from the rerolls he grants the unit. If you get close to an enemy miniature that you really want to see dead (like an MC, an HQ choice or a Dread), remember you can suicide the lone Brotherhood and have a good chance of killing it off. If you assault and die, you will likely get to instagib the enemy on a 3+, and you can reroll if you miss. You can also use this "Heroic Sacrifice" rule to deal with pesky vehicles. Get in melee with an enemy unit, but make sure you are also in base contact with the vehicle. And when you choose the target for your sacrifice, choose the vehicle!
Librarian: He can cast 2 powers per turn, and he's your only way to get psychic hoods. You have access to some interesting powers too, however remember you have to pay for them. If you take Dreadnoughts with Reinforced Aegis you won't have so much need for hoods, so it's not as important as in other SM armies. However, hoods are never bad to have. Upgrading to using 3 powers per turn makes him very expensive, so I'd skip that upgrade. You can rely on other units to inflict Instant Death, so make good use of his powers instead of activating his Force Weapon.
Inquisitor Coteaz: Probably the best HQ choice you could have, unless you are a puritan SM player. He turns Henchmen into troops, gives you the effect of old Mystics, and allows you to reroll Seize the Initiative tests. Oh, he's also dirt cheap (as far special HQs go). He's also a Psyker with some good powers, including giving your unit +1 strength and making enemies consider all terrain as both difficult and dangerous during the assault phase.
Inquisitor Karamazov: He's kind of expensive for a unit that can be instagibbed by S10 and can't get into transports. However, he has one of the most hilarious rules in 40k, AKA shoot an Orbital Bombardment on your own units, even if they are engaged in an assault. That alone could make him viable, as if you can tie up a horde with something tough (Nemesis Dreadkinght?), you can then shoot them to oblivion. Plus since he can shoot weapons that don't ignore 3+ and 2+ armor saves, playing him could be a nice option.
Inquisitor Valeria: She's more expensive than Coteaz and not even half as cool. She has a ton of weird items in her inventory, but she's hardly worth it. If you want a character that can instagib enemies, Brotherhood Champions have a better chance of doing it. If not, I already mentioned Coteaz.
Vanilla Inquisitors: They now come in three flavors: Xenos, Hereticus and Malleus! Each has unique equipment available, but they are all extremely cheap. Ordo Xenos Inquisitors can get a piece of wargear that makes any Plasma weapons within 12" mostly useless, so he's a good option if you want to field many 2+ or 3+ armored men. Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can get a Psycannon, but since they also need to pay for Terminator Armor it gets a bit expensive.

ELITES

Techmarine: A Techmarine that at first glance seems like any other Techie in the 40k universe. However, there are some things making them unique in this Codex. First, they are Psykers, as is everyone and their mother in this codex, making them even better at repairing vehicles. Second, they have much better equipment options. In particular, Conversion Beamers are quite cheap. And they can take Orbital Strike Relays, allowing you to carpet bomb the whole battlefield. Sure, they're imprecise weapons, but that's solved somewhat by smart Servoskull placement. Since Servoskulls are markers, not units, you don't have to worry about giving out free KPs, and placing them on rooftops and other hard-to-reach places make them very good at precise attacks. Another alternative is fitting him for melee combat, with Psychotroke and Rad grenades. You can even give him a Nemesis Warding Stave to make him harder to kill in melee, but after you assault you shouldn't really mind if he dies or not.
Purifier Squad: These guys are boss. Not only do they have great weapon options, but they decimate Hordes like few other units in the game. I mean really, free S6 Flamers? Psycannons at the cost of Missile Launchers? These guys are the only reason to pick an HQ as bad as Crowe. They have great firepower, and are just as good at melee. However, they are expensive, so don't go overboard on the upgrades. 10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons and 6 Halberds come at over the cost of a Land Raider, but is a force to be reckoned with. However you'll need to get them a transport, because if they try to walk up to the enemy they'll get shot up a lot.
Venerable Dreadnought: Only pick this guy if you have no HS slots available for a normal Dreadnought. The extra cost is not really worth it otherwise. You get better weapon and ballistic skill, true. But since all vehicles have the Fortitude power, the Venerable rule is not as useful.
Paladin Squad: EXPENSIVE. That's what defines these guys. They each have 2 wounds, however, so that's nice. But since there are so many good Elites choices I'd only pick these guys in an army with Draigo. If you do play them, make sure you dress them up pretty to play Wound Allocation Musical Chairs. The Apothecary is expensive, but can be very worth it as FNP helps protect against bad rolls. I'd also consider investing in a Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with a Plasma Syphon, as plasma weaponry is the bane of Terminators everywhere. Of course, these options will make an already expensive unit even more expensive...
Temple Assassins: Man assassins are alluring. They are unique, however, so you can only field one of each. But they bring quite a lot to your army. They are quite expensive, so there's only two I can really recommend. Culexus Assassins have a buckload of shots thanks to the amount of Psyker units in the codex, so they can be viable. But the best, by far, are Vindicare Assassins. They can break Storm Shields, put a dent on any MC, and they can turn vehicles into junk easy as pie. The only vehicles that can really stand against them are Necron Monoliths, that are immune to your ammo, and things with cover saves such as Tau vehicles. Their ability to choose what miniature recieves the wounds they inflict makes them extremely good at picking out Power Fists and heavy weapons from squads. To get the most bang for your buck aim Vindicare Assassins at vehicles, since it's not that hard to get well over your point's worth in a single shot.

ELITES - INQUISITORIAL HENCHMEN
These guys need a section for themselves, as there are just so many different ones you can use. Remember that each unit can have any mix of henchmen you want, too!

Arco-Flagellant: A CC specialist, but there are other, better options for that. If you have some, however, there's no need to throw them away, but consider them mostly as extra wounds for the unit. However there are other, better options to use as extra wounds.
Banisher: Not worth taking them vanilla, but with an Eviscerator they aren't half bad. However, unless you expect to go melee against walkers I'd get Melta Warriors. Still a good option if you want some redundancy against vehicles, or know you'll be facing MCs. S6+2D6 to penetrate armor seems very good, but you won't get many attacks for it to work. And if you're going against transports, you probably want to pop it open and assault the juicy insides. Another reason to play one somewhere in your army is that his "Aura of Faith" special rule hurts Daemons quite a lot.
Crusader: They are cheap, have power weapons, and a 3++ save. What more do you want? They strike after most Space Marines, but you'll probably just want a few to use as wounds, since their Shields makes them hard to kill.
Daemon Host: These asre slightly cheaper than Death-Cult Assassins, but not nearly as good. Daemon Hosts have less attacks, and no power weapons. The special abilites you can get from their daemonic nature are too random and unreliable. To make matters worse, they have half the initiative of DKAs, and a little over half their WS. For a few extra points, DKAs are superior in every way.
Death-Cult Assassin: God-Emperor these guys are beasts. A TON of PW attacks, good WS, high Initiative, and a 5++ save. Cheap too, so get these if you want to dominate the assault phase. Thay are also stronger than your common guardsmen, so wounding isn't that hard. I'm not sure if the extra attack from two weapons is included in the profile, so waiting for the FAQ/Errata would be a good idea. But either way they pack a punch.
Servitor: Unreliable, to the point of being useless if they don't stick with an Inquisitor. But they do provide a good amount of cheap firepower. I recommend Plasma Cannons, as then you won't care as much about their low BS. Just remember Plasma Syphons affect you as well as the enemy!
Jokaero Weaponsmith: Monkeys! They are like CSM Oblits, only easier to kill. And cheaper. And can be made troops. They improve any unit they are in, but they don't work well in high numbers. 2 seems to be the sweet spot, and if you get 5 or more you won't get any improvements at all. there's much fanfare about how they provice an army with cheapish Lascannons, but they have low Ballistic Skill. So using them as Heavy Flamers instead may not be such a bad idea!
Mystic: These are ONLY beacons. If you want the old-school Mystic's effects (shooting at enemies coming from reserves and DS) you'll need Coteaz instead.
Psyker: Similar to the Psyker Squads in IG armies, but if you suffer Perils of the Warp you pretty much lost all of them. However, a single Psyker in each squad can shoot a nice anti-horde blast. This gives decent utility without risking many points on something that can be shut down easily by hoods.
Warrior Acolyte: Special Weapon Spam festival is here! Flamers, meltaguns, plasmaguns, combis, PFists, you name it. Only 3 Warriors can take special weapons per squad. Still pretty good, however, they just need some support. You can use 3 Warriors with meltaguns in an assault unit and use them to pop transports open, or give them plasma to deal with MEQ. If you want a Power Fist Banishers are a better option, and if you want Storm Shields Crusaders are cheaper. If you want both on the same miniature, well, expect to pay the price.


TROOPS

Grey Knight Terminator Squad: They are Terminators and they are troops. However, you don't have the option to get Storm shields, Cyclone MLs, dedicated LRs, or most of the other goodies you'd espect from termies. That's why I'm not really sold on them. If you want a Terminator army, go for Draigo's Paladins.
Justicar Thawn: There's one reason to get Termies however: this guy. He's an upgrade character for the Terminators, and he's unkillable. Sort of. He has a 50% chance of getting back up if he was removed as a casualty, and he can keep rolling every turn. Best of all, he only awards points if he's dead when the game ends, and only one point no matter how many times he died. Key word; "removed as a casualty" (not a word, but sue me). So even things that "remove" instead of killing or destroying allow you to get back up. So he's like a Necron, only better. He can cast two powers per turn, allowing him to use Hammerhand AND activate his halberd.
Grey Knight Strike Squad: At first glance they are slightly more expensive SMs, but you get SO much for the extra cost. They mess around with enemy deep striking, have storm bolters and Force Weapons, and they can Deep Strike. So a very solid Troop choice if you don't want a fancy army. You can't give them melta, plasma, and Missile Launchers, so keep that in mind when building your army.


DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Rhino: More expensive than normal Rhinos, but it's a Psyker vehicle, so hurrah. Or something. Not that being able to ignore crew stunned/shaken results is bad.
Razorback: WOW. S7 Assault Cannons and S6 Heavy Bolters, that's all I'm saying. A bit more expensive than normal Razorbacks, but so very worth it for the extra firepower.
Chimaera: See Codex: Imperial Guard.


FAST ATTACK

Stormraven Gunship: Like the BA Stormraven, with two major differences. One, it's a Psyker. And two, the Missiles it carries are anti-horde instead of anti-tank. They are also great against Psykers, as they inflict Perils of the Warp to anything they hit. Thank god you won't have anything that counts as a psyker in your army, or misfires could hurt you quite a bit (oh wait). You can still fit it to deal with enemy vehicles however, by giving it S6 Heavy Bolter Sponsons and a S7 Assault Cannon. This, however, quickly becomes expensive, bumping it up to the cost of a Land Raider.
Grey Knight Interceptor Squad: These are the Grey Knight's assault marines. Only instead of flying around, they blink and teleport. They can use the normal 12" move other assault marines can, but once per game they can move up to 30". If they do this, however, they can't assault on the same turn. They have the same Warp Quake power as the Strike Squads, so you can use them as an anti-DS shield that can be quickly relocated in addition to counter-assault.


HEAVY SUPPORT

Purgation Squad: These guys sure pack a punch. For less than the cost of a Stormraven you get 16 S7 Rending shots at 24", 8 if you moved. Not bad at all! They also have a power that allows them to shoot without LoS, but then you grant a 4+ cover save. I don't doubt these guys will see play, even though they aren't the only good HS option. They can also pick Razorbacks, getting another Heavy Weapon platform in a single slot.
Dreadnought: And here we have the king of Riflemen. For quite cheap you get 4 TL S8 and two S5 shots per turn, and in addition to that you grant Reinforced Aegis to anyone nearby. However, he has to fight for HS slots with the other options in the codex.
Nemesis Dreadknight: The body of a Hive Tyrant, the armor of a Terminator, the cost of a Rifleman Dread. The weapon options are interesting, but quickly turn him very expensive. Stormravens can carry a Dreadnought behind, but not a Dreadknight. They can't go inside a Stormraven either, because the rules for Transports in the 5th edition rulebook specify transports can carry Infantry, so MCs are excluded. There are, however, several ways to use him. He's the only one that can wield a Heavy Incinerator or Heavy Psycannon, so you can use him to deal with hordes. A Librarian with The Summoning can call him anywhere on the battlefield, but you won't be able to assault on the same turn you move this way. I'd say he's best as a counter-assault unit and fire magnet, so you'll want to keep him cheap.
Land Raider: Other than being Psykers, thy're pretty much like every other Land Raider out there. It may be tempting to give a Crusader Psyblot ammo, but then the Hurricane Bolters don't count as defensive weapons. And making a Redeemer's flamers S7 is pretty much overkill, and too expensive.




UNIT COMBOS
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad and/or Psychostroke grenades and/or Plasma Syphon, joined to an assault unit.
For a bit more than the cost of a Razorback, the Inquisitor greatly enhances any unit he joins. The Plasma Syphon helps counteract a popular anti-2+ weapon. Specially good against plasma IG if that's popular in your meta.

Techmarine with Orbital Strike Relay and Servo Skulls in a shooty unit such as Jokaero, Servitors or Purgation squad.
This option specially shines if you play Coteaz, as then you can have Troop Jokaeros in Chimaeras. The amount of firepower this dishes out is overwhelming. Remember Servitors won't be able to shoot half of the time unless they are with an Inquisitor.

Purifiers/Purgators with a Razorback with a TL Assault Cannon and Psybolt ammo.
The razorback costs a bit more than two Termies, but gives you more firepower than a normal Rifleman dreadnought. The best part is, it won't occupy a FoC slot. Purgators can use it to go to their firing zone, or not be inside ever. Purifiers can follow the same plan, or just buy the Razorback as an independent weapon platform. You can buy them a LR or Stormraven to transport them instead.

Servitors wih an Inquisitor and maybe Jokaeros and Crusaders.
It's really the only way to be able to shoot Servitors reliably, and Plasma Cannons costing half as much as a Termie each are just too good to pass up. I recommend Plasma Cannons because then you're less affected by the low BS.

Karamazov, and either teleporting Dreadknights or a Thawn.
By any Means Necessary is a rule begging to be exploited. Karamazov provides a good boost to your troops, so he's a nice buy either way. But if your Thawn or Dreadknight is surrounded by hordes, a few Barrage Bombs will deal with the problem. You can also take one for the team by sacrificing a miniature to a Lance Strike to deal with a heavy vehicle. Get a miniature as close to the target as the rules allow, leaving the rest of the unit within coherency but as far away as possible. If done right, the Lance will hit the vehicle. Thawn is great for this, since he can get back up for another go! Just do it early in the game if possible, so he has enough time to get back up.



LIBRARIAN PSYCHIC POWERS
Librarians need to pay for their powers, so which ones should you buy? This section will help you make your choice, as well as giving tips on how to best use the powers.
Hammerhand: The base power of Librarians and pretty much every GK in the codex, this power gives +1 strenght. Very basic, but it's a free power! Plus you double the bonus if using Fists and Hammers.
Dark Excommunication: Not a typo! It's a power made specifically to hurt Daemons, so I'd skip it. You are already good enough against them, with Daemons being your Preferred Enemy.
Might of Titan: Same as Hammerhand, but cumulative with it AND you get an extra D6 to penetrate armor. With so many ways in the codex to deal with vehicles, Psycanons being a prime example, I wouldn't bother. And since against MCs you only really need to deal 1 wound, getting extra strength is overkill.
Quicksilver: This power makes you as quick as a screaming Eldar Banshee. That's very fast, in case you didn't know. A Librarian with Quicksilver in a unit with Falchions can be a real pain for the enemy, as they'll never know what hit them. Remember that Fists and Hammers will still hit at Initiative 1, so dont get too excited.
Sanctuary: An excellent power if you don't want to be on the recieving end of assaults, but GKs can usually still win. So unless you're going for some kind of gunline army I don't think it's really worth it.
The Shrouding: +1 to cover saves is nice, as is getting a 6+ save in the open. But it's nothing really exciting.
Smite: A bad anti-Terminator power, but nothing more than that. It may kill one Termie, sometimes. Sure, it CAN kill four of them, but killing one will be hard enough. There are other powers better than this.
The Summoning: This power is surprisingly good. You can't get allies out of melee, but you CAN get them away from danger before they are assaulted. You need to upgrade vehicles to use it on them, however, and the upgrade's cost quickly adds up if you give it to everything in your army. But don't underestimate this power.
Vortex of Doom: Don't. Pick. This. EVER. Normally failing a psychic test means just that, the power won't work. In the case of this power, it'll hit you. With full force. And it won't scatter. So you'll die a terrible death. And one well deserved for choosing this power.
Warp Rift: Jaws, only it's a flamer instead of a line. For the shorter range compared to the space doggies you can damage vehicles, and MCs don't get a bonus to escape doom. A really good power if you plan on playing an assault army.



I think I got everything down. Later I may do a review about army options and unit combinations.
Comment away!

EDIT: Fixed some errors. Specifically:
-Only 3 Warrior Akolytes per unit can use special weapons.
-Mordrak's Ghosts can't be made scoring.
-Added a note to remind that Walkers can be made troops, but they won't score objectives.

EDIT 2: Extended the description of a few Henchmen, mostly the Daemon Hosts (now I tell why I think they're bad instead of just saying they are.

EDIT 3: Extended a lot of things, and made a few fixes. Ordo Malleus Inquisitors require buying Terminator Armor to get a Psycannon, so that's not such a hot choice. I've also added a section on Librarian powers.

EDIT 4: Added two more unit combos.

EDIT 5: Deleted the Thawndrop. I forgot Mordrak isn't an IC.

wittdooley
03-18-2011, 03:56 PM
Really nice article man. A great primer for newbies, too.

Well done.

Cyberscape7
03-18-2011, 05:02 PM
I'm curious to see how the psychic vehicles are gonna work in game... Also despite the large cost of paladin squads I still think they are pretty decent.

geisthammer
03-18-2011, 05:30 PM
Very, very good lemt. Quick overview. Saved me a bunch of hassle. Until my copy gets here.

Tynskel
03-18-2011, 05:30 PM
uh. This is blah. Why, because without actually saying anything, the author just rants.

ex.
"Brother-Captain Stern: I don't think there's any reason to pick him over other HQ choices. He costs as much as Mordrak, but doesn't have the advantages of a Grand Master (AKA making anything scoring). His stats are worse that that of a Grand Master too, so I'd ignore this HQ completely."

You don't describe anything he does. What's the use of this?

Connjurus
03-18-2011, 05:41 PM
Two errors I spotted here, man.

First off, Jokaero are BETTER the more of them you have in a squad - 5 is the sweet spot, as it guarantees you get two effects from their little table.

Secondly, only three Warriors per henchman squad can take special weapons. You could give the rest stormbolters though.


Other than that, a lot of this is more opinion than fact. Try and stay neutral next time.

DarkLink
03-18-2011, 05:47 PM
Stern doesn't really do anything, that's the problem. He's just a very expensive Brother Captain with a psychic power that, while brutally good, also can hit you (everyone in 6" takes a test of some sort or dies, I don't recall the details). The power's only good situationally, and not worth the extra points you spend.


And you can't get 12 melta/flamer/plasma henchmen units, I believe. You're limited to 3 special weapons per squad.

Connjurus
03-18-2011, 05:51 PM
It's a strength test, I think. And Daemons reroll successful ones.

Edit: Also, for added Paladin hilarity, attach an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad 'nades and the Plasma Siphon to the squad. It's the cost of another Paladin, sure, but it makes it so that on the assault, the unit they charge is at -1 toughness, and basically removes the threat of plasma shooting to that 2+/FNP unit altogether.

SonicPara
03-18-2011, 07:20 PM
Can you take the Psybolt Ammo (+1 strength) upgrade on Godhammer LRs? AV14 vehicle with two TL Railguns that can shoot different targets? Expensive but throw a troops choice in it and sit it on a hot objective maybe?

plawolf
03-18-2011, 07:28 PM
Can you take the Psybolt Ammo (+1 strength) upgrade on Godhammer LRs? AV14 vehicle with two TL Railguns that can shoot different targets? Expensive but throw a troops choice in it and sit it on a hot objective maybe?

I think Psybolts only work with ammo base weapons like all bolters, autocannons and assault cannons etc.

plawolf
03-18-2011, 07:30 PM
It's a strength test, I think. And Daemons reroll successful ones.

Edit: Also, for added Paladin hilarity, attach an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad 'nades and the Plasma Siphon to the squad. It's the cost of another Paladin, sure, but it makes it so that on the assault, the unit they charge is at -1 toughness, and basically removes the threat of plasma shooting to that 2+/FNP unit altogether.

Cool but unless you are taking Draigo, that's two of your three Elite choices in one squad, and very pricy.

You are better off sticking the =I= with a normal GKT squad since being able to ignore plasma will mean a lot more with only one wound each, it costs a lot less and doesn't take up two elite slots.

SonicPara
03-18-2011, 08:25 PM
I think Psybolts only work with ammo base weapons like all bolters, autocannons and assault cannons etc.

That is what I thought at first but Redeemers apparently get the buff to their Flamestorm Cannons?

Lemt
03-18-2011, 08:47 PM
uh. This is blah. Why, because without actually saying anything, the author just rants.

ex.
"Brother-Captain Stern: I don't think there's any reason to pick him over other HQ choices. He costs as much as Mordrak, but doesn't have the advantages of a Grand Master (AKA making anything scoring). His stats are worse that that of a Grand Master too, so I'd ignore this HQ completely."

You don't describe anything he does. What's the use of this?

You missed the point of the review. It's a review, not "here's what each thing does". Read the disclaimer. :p


Two errors I spotted here, man.

First off, Jokaero are BETTER the more of them you have in a squad - 5 is the sweet spot, as it guarantees you get two effects from their little table.

Secondly, only three Warriors per henchman squad can take special weapons. You could give the rest stormbolters though.


Other than that, a lot of this is more opinion than fact. Try and stay neutral next time.
Good catch on the Warriors, I mixed that up with the leaked codex.
Jokaero give you +1 on the roll for special mods for each monkey beyond the first. with five monkeys, you get a +4. If you roll 6+, you roll twice more, but ignore duplicates (including more 6+ rolls). That means you can roll anything between 5 (4+1) and 10 (4+6). A roll of 5 (natural 1 on the dice) will give you an invulnerable save. Any other result will do nothing at all. With 2 Jokaero, you get +1 to the roll. That means you will never get a roll of 1 (a useless roll, literally). However, you have a chance of gaining +12" range on your weapons, one of the best results. Since the extra range is gained by rolling a 2, having 3+ Jokaero means you CAN'T get that result at all.
You'll see in the disclaimer I said I'd write about my opinions on units. Writing about how well each unit actually performs in battle will have to wait a few months. ;)

It's a strength test, I think. And Daemons reroll successful ones.

Edit: Also, for added Paladin hilarity, attach an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Rad 'nades and the Plasma Siphon to the squad. It's the cost of another Paladin, sure, but it makes it so that on the assault, the unit they charge is at -1 toughness, and basically removes the threat of plasma shooting to that 2+/FNP unit altogether.

Woah, that sounds like a really GOOD plan.


That is what I thought at first but Redeemers apparently get the buff to their Flamestorm Cannons?
There's an upgrade for flamer weapons too (Psyflame ammo), but Psybolt ammo works with boltguns and other solid ammo weapons only.


Thanks for all the comments so far! I'll add a list of unit combos tomorrow if I can find the time. However, I have a M:tG tournament tomorrow AND a 40k tournament in 3 weeks, and I still have to paint a ton of minis!

Tynskel
03-18-2011, 10:19 PM
I read the disclaimer. However, reviews don't say "this sucks". They say "this sucks because unit does x, when it should do y".

plasticaddict
03-18-2011, 10:51 PM
"Grand Master: Hell yeah. Grand Masters have sweet rules, and great gear options to boot. Expect to see this bad boy a lot, and even two in 2k+ games. (Remember that, although his rule allows you to make Walkers counts as Troops, 5th edition rules specify that vehicles can't be scoring even if they ARE troops. (page 90 of the 5th ed. rulebook) "

Not quite, Grand Masters can make D3 units count as "scoring" not as "troops". You can in fact have your Dreadnoughts hold objectives. Also Codex trumps BRB.

DarkLink
03-19-2011, 12:12 AM
I played my first 1500pt game with the new GKs using a list I wrote from memory based on internet rumors. I won vs a good SW army, though JotWW nearly lost the game for me.

I had:
Grand Master (no wargear, couldn't recall point costs and the like)

10 Purifiers, 2 psycannons, 1 Daemonhammer, Hlaberds, Rhino

6 Paladins, 2 Psycannons, Brotherhood Banner and mix of swords, halberds and daemonhammers for wound allocation

2x 5 GKSS, 1 psycannon, Rhino

2x Psyrifle Dreads



My opponent had 3 Rune Priests in Grey Hunter squads, 2 Long Fang squads, a 4th grey hunter squad and a couple land speeders.

Basically, my Purifiers made a run for his objective, killing all the Long Fangs and the GH squad he left to guard it and claiming his objective. The rest of his army was trying to circle my Paladins as they marched forward, and my Dreads blew his Rhinos out from under him. He melta'd one paladin, caused one or two wounds, and killed 5 and the Grand Master with JotWW. Paladins killed a Rhino. They did keep him distracted, and I was able to contest the objective with one of my GKSS by the time he did manage to get there. Game ended turn 6, 1 objective to none in my favor.


What I learned:
Paladins are a great, but expensive, distraction. They're too slow to likely make it into CC against most armies, but at least they have lots of guns. They need a transport, but transports are very expensive. Keep these guys cheap and efficient. Otherwise, not all that great, and absolutely not broken.

GKSS are great. Cheap scoring units that can put out good damage at range. In small games a 5-6 man unit with a single psycannon is good, as your opponent has bigger things to worry about yet a psycannon and storm bolters can still do damage. In larger games a core of 10-man units will probably be a better choice.

Full squad with 2 psycannons and psybolts are awesome. Tons of mobile firepower. Purifiers are solid in CC, too. They can kill their points in vanilla marines pretty easily, and can handle some of the nastier enemy units out there thanks to I6 and psychic powers.

If you take a Grand master, you only need two troops, since you can just make stuff scoring.

Psyrifle Dreads are great, but won't live for more than a few turns against Long Fangs. They tore my opponent's Rhinos out from under him in two turns, though. Their psychic defense is great, though they'll attract so much fire that they likely won't survive late game. I might actually consider Venerables in the future because of this.

Lack of Fearless is annoying. Not that any of my stuff ran away, but just having to roll at all is almost insulting. What do you mean, I have to play the morale game like almost everyone else, now?

Morgan Darkstar
03-19-2011, 08:26 AM
Nice review i understand it's your personal view on the codex i will form my own opinions as soon as i have read it.

Regarding a certain person who seems to have a chip on their shoulder, just ignore them they just want attention. ;)

Lemt
03-19-2011, 08:35 AM
"Grand Master: Hell yeah. Grand Masters have sweet rules, and great gear options to boot. Expect to see this bad boy a lot, and even two in 2k+ games. (Remember that, although his rule allows you to make Walkers counts as Troops, 5th edition rules specify that vehicles can't be scoring even if they ARE troops. (page 90 of the 5th ed. rulebook) "

Not quite, Grand Masters can make D3 units count as "scoring" not as "troops". You can in fact have your Dreadnoughts hold objectives. Also Codex trumps BRB.

Well, the wording says they can "claim objectives as if they were troops". And since Vehicle Troops don't count as scoring, you can't claim objectives. :(

I read the disclaimer. However, reviews don't say "this sucks". They say "this sucks because unit does x, when it should do y".

That's... a good point. I'll go ahead and change it.


*snip*
Purifiers sure are awesome, aren't they? I'm a bit sad you didn't get Razorbacks with PsyAssault Cannons for your GKSSs, but those things are a points sink. Would you drop a Dread for that, or do you think it's not worth it?
As for Paladins, from what you say I'm not sure I'd play them. Around 400 points for a distraction is a lot, specially considering the huge amount of good, durable units in the codex. I mean, would a Knight or two have been as good at distracting? Cheaper, too.

bonedale
03-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Well, the wording says they can "claim objectives as if they were troops". And since Vehicle Troops don't count as scoring, you can't claim objectives. :(


I believe the codex does trump the rule book.

Lemt
03-19-2011, 09:03 AM
I believe the codex does trump the rule book.

It would if it said you could claim objectives. But it says you can score "as troops", so you follow the normal rules for troops scoring. And since vehicle troops can't score, well, yeah. :(

Morgan Darkstar
03-19-2011, 09:24 AM
what is it the grandmaster can do? i have heard 2 different things 1. makes d3 unts scoring. or 2. can give d3 units a USR i am more inclined to go with 1 as it's the one i hear about most.

Lemt
03-19-2011, 09:41 AM
what is it the grandmaster can do? i have heard 2 different things 1. makes d3 unts scoring. or 2. can give d3 units a USR i am more inclined to go with 1 as it's the one i hear about most.

Make units score as troops, re-roll 1s to wound, counter-attack or scouts. Always D3 units, all must be given the same bonus, and not all units are valid targets.

Connjurus
03-19-2011, 10:05 AM
I'd wait until an FAQ/Errata comes out before I say yes or no to scoring Dreadnoughts - since it says it MAKES THEM SCORING as though they were troops, not "makes them troops so they can score" or some similar rule-wording.

Also, I've been coming up with hilarious henchmen combinations, like IG in Terminator Armor (Jokaero rolling to get the Armor and Invulnerable saves to Warriors in Power Armor with Stormbolters and Power Weapons) and also, you can totally make a Counts-As Adeptus Mechanicus army with this codex. Make the Dreadknights Secutors (the Heretek hunters that are bigger than terminators and three times as nasty), take some counts-as Coteaz dude, and LOTS AND LOTS OF SERVITORS.

Also, Daemonhosts on their own may be kinda meh, but if you take 12 of them...holy crap. That's quite the potentially devastating unit - moreso than Death Cult Assassins, I'd say.

In terms of combos, after looking over the book yesterday, you were right about the Jokaero, much to my Chagrin, so 2-3 is the sweetspot. So I'd say the optimum build for for Henchmen squads is 2-3 Jokaero, 3 Melta/Plasma/Flamer Vets, a few Crusaders for the ablative wounds/3++, and a Mystic if you have deepstrikers, otherwise just fill in another Crusader. Or a bunch of Warriors with Stormbolters, it's up to you.

Lemt
03-19-2011, 10:15 AM
I agree with waiting for the FAQ/errata.

The henchmen unit you mention is really nice. For a melee henchmen squad, I'd gor for 3 Melta Warriors, an Eviscerator Banisher, 3-5 DKAs and fill in with some Crusaders. Daemonhosts could make for a fun Traitor army, but I just don't think they are as good as other options.

Connjurus
03-19-2011, 10:23 AM
Yeah, that's why I made sure to specify POTENTIALLY devastating. ;) Sad that their invulnerable save got nerfed after we were hearing about how they were supposed to get stronger.

Morgan Darkstar
03-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Make units score as troops, re-roll 1s to wound, counter-attack or scouts. Always D3 units, all must be given the same bonus, and not all units are valid targets.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. last time i was in GW the codex was being horded by a maniacal looking 16 year old gibbering away to himself so i just left it and him well alone.

zenjah
03-19-2011, 10:57 AM
Does each Temple Assassin use up an Elites selection, or is there some kind of a rule to let you take more than one as a single Elite selection?

Connjurus
03-19-2011, 11:00 AM
Each one is a single Elites choice, and you can only take one of each.

DarkLink
03-19-2011, 11:52 AM
I'd wait until an FAQ/Errata comes out before I say yes or no to scoring Dreadnoughts - since it says it MAKES THEM SCORING as though they were troops, not "makes them troops so they can score" or some similar rule-wording.


Seeing as the codex explicitly states "the unit becomes scoring", there's no issue here. The Grand Master MAKES THEM SCORING, thus they become a scoring unit. Doesn't matter if they normally can't score, the Grand Master allows them to do it.

Lemt
03-19-2011, 01:33 PM
Seeing as the codex explicitly states "the unit becomes scoring", there's no issue here. The Grand Master MAKES THEM SCORING, thus they become a scoring unit. Doesn't matter if they normally can't score, the Grand Master allows them to do it.

You're all forgetting the second part of the sentence. It says "can claim objectives as if they were troops". So they follow the normal rules for troops scoring, and vehicle troops can't score.

DrLove42
03-19-2011, 02:52 PM
The walkers section of it probably doesn't apply to the holding objectives....the walkers is more geared towards some of the other things that are applied...

But then obviously i haven't read the exact wording in a while...

DarkLink
03-19-2011, 07:45 PM
You're all forgetting the second part of the sentence. It says "can claim objectives as if they were troops". So they follow the normal rules for troops scoring, and vehicle troops can't score.

I'm not forgetting anything, since I haven't actually seen the codex;). I'm going off what you guys are saying.

Lemt
03-19-2011, 09:00 PM
I'm not forgetting anything, since I haven't actually seen the codex;). I'm going off what you guys are saying.

The Codex is pretty, I wish I had it (I've just seen it). I promised myself I wouldn't buy or preorder GK stuff until the FAQ/Errata came out. But I'm soooo tempted of getting the codex...

greenstuff777
03-19-2011, 10:57 PM
I dont know why people are arguing the Army Book ALWAYS trumps the rule book and the Grey Knights book is pretty f*** specific is says ...WALKERS ARE SCORING. THATS IT!!! Dreadnoughts can score and are very good at doing it..Sorry Im a dark eldar players and HATE S8 Autocannons

DarkLink
03-19-2011, 11:17 PM
I think it might end up being a moot point most of the time, as the very first thing my opponent killed in my game were my two dreads. Didn't stop them from killing all but one of his Rhinos by turn 2, though. They're awesome, but I don't think they'll survive the whole game too often.

plawolf
03-20-2011, 06:14 AM
Another reason why it might be worth finding the points for a venerable. But your dreds will already be a top priority target, best not to make them scoring and give your opponent another reason to want them dead - unless you want them to be preoccupied by them of course.

The best units to make troops will be something with staying power like the dreadknight, paladin squads land raiders; something fast that can cover huge distances for that last turn objective grab like interceptor squads and stormravens; or fire support squads who would need to be camped somewhere all game anyways, so it might as well
be on an objective. And here you have your purgation squads and rifledreads.

Of these stormravens and rifle dreads would prob not be worth while as they would be top priority targets already and would be unlikely to survive the game if you give your opponent the added incentive to kill them by making them troops.

Paladins and land raiders would be tough enough to have a decent chance to survive the extra attention being troops would cause them, but are pricy. But if you plan on taking an LR or paladin squad anyways, I say why not?

The dreadknight, SS/PW warriors and purgation squads would seem good choices at first. But with a dreadknight you would want them to be in the middle of the biggest fights on the field bashing face, not camping an objective taking pot shots. Similar thing with purgation squads since the paycannon range nurf really hurts them. Often you will prob be forces to choose between camping an objective or providing effective fire support. You would want these guys putting all those shinny psycannons to best use, not sitting around babysitting an objective. With SS/PW warriors you would want them tarpitting something so again it can often come down to claiming an objective or doing their job effectively.

I think one of the best choices would be interceptor squads because of their 30" shunt move. Brilliant for last turn objective grabs. They are not overly pricy and comes from the FA slot so are not forcing you to give up cool elites or useful HS units to use them. If you are taking a GM and have points to spare, I would def suggest taking as many of these guys as you can afford.

Lemt
03-20-2011, 06:57 AM
I dont know why people are arguing the Army Book ALWAYS trumps the rule book and the Grey Knights book is pretty f*** specific is says ...WALKERS ARE SCORING. THATS IT!!! Dreadnoughts can score and are very good at doing it..Sorry Im a dark eldar players and HATE S8 Autocannons

No, the codex does NOT say it makes walkers scoring. Is says the units you choose "can claim objectives as if they were troops". So what it does is it virtually turns the unit you choose into a Troop choice. So it has to follow the normal rules for troops scoring.

And again, either way I'd wait for the errata.

DrLove42
03-20-2011, 07:09 AM
No, the codex does NOT say it makes walkers scoring. Is says the units you choose "can claim objectives as if they were troops". So what it does is it virtually turns the unit you choose into a Troop choice. So it has to follow the normal rules for troops scoring.

And again, either way I'd wait for the errata.

If thats the exact wording i go down on the side of them not being able to hold.

Other codexes have walkers in the troops slot (although only one that springs to mind is the new Wasp in the FW IA Book). Even though its a troop, doens't mean it can claim.

The FAQ bettter come soon...

Lemt
03-20-2011, 01:44 PM
If thats the exact wording i go down on the side of them not being able to hold.

Other codexes have walkers in the troops slot (although only one that springs to mind is the new Wasp in the FW IA Book). Even though its a troop, doens't mean it can claim.

The FAQ bettter come soon...

Orks can make walkers troops too, I believe. And yeah, I'm afraid that's the exact wording.
Then again, Dreadknights are fair game. :p

DarkLink
03-20-2011, 02:55 PM
The "as if they were troops" doesn't necessarily disallow walkers from scoring. It doesn't say "they become troops", it could be interpreted as saying "they score the way that troops can do". It's an ambiguous phrase that does not necessarily prevent scoring. Vehicles that are troops cannot score, but the rule does not make them count as troops.

This is exactly the same wording as Counter Assault. The rule states they "gain +1 A as if they were assaulting". If you assume that this means they're actually assaulting, then they benefit from Furious Charge (or GK Dreads wouldn't be scoring because they'd count as being pseudo troops). If you assume they're not actually assaulting, and the "as if" is just an example, then they do not benefit from furious charge (or GK Dreads would not actually be limited by the normal limitation of vehicles as troops scoring).

The rule is not clear, and it will need an FAQ. Incidentally, if GW rules consistently with their Counter Assault/Furious Charge ruling, GK Dreads will be able to score.


Another reason why it might be worth finding the points for a venerable. But your dreds will already be a top priority target, best not to make them scoring and give your opponent another reason to want them dead - unless you want them to be preoccupied by them of course.

The best units to make troops will be something with staying power like the dreadknight, paladin squads land raiders; something fast that can cover huge distances for that last turn objective grab like interceptor squads and stormravens; or fire support squads who would need to be camped somewhere all game anyways, so it might as well
be on an objective. And here you have your purgation squads and rifledreads.

Of these stormravens and rifle dreads would prob not be worth while as they would be top priority targets already and would be unlikely to survive the game if you give your opponent the added incentive to kill them by making them troops.

Paladins and land raiders would be tough enough to have a decent chance to survive the extra attention being troops would cause them, but are pricy. But if you plan on taking an LR or paladin squad anyways, I say why not?
.

You can't give Land Raiders or Storm Ravens any of the special rules. You can only give the rules to infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creatures and walkers. Now, scout does carry over to dedicated transports, but no scoring or outflanking Land Raiders or Storm Ravens.

greenstuff777
03-20-2011, 05:13 PM
FAQ IS due out mid-April and according to our bunkers managers ruling and the Regional manager in our state dreadnoughts and dread knights are Scoring just like they were troops. I hope This IS TRUE THREE Dread knights, Crow and Purifiers

Lemt
03-20-2011, 06:00 PM
*snip*

The Furios Charge example is good. I'm not so sure anymore. :/

DarkLink
03-20-2011, 08:16 PM
Yeah, unfortunately GW loves to use ambiguous language and phrases, and rarely defines stuff precisely, and little things like this pop up as a result.

Unzuul the Lascivious
03-22-2011, 06:33 AM
Sorry chaps, but walkers WOULD become scoring units. Feel free to interpret the sentence however you like but 'as if they were troops' means you ignore the type of unit and treat them as if they were an infantry troop choice. If you're going to read the sentence literally word for word and be pedantic...
The fact it is a walker has nothing to do with the argument at all. It has become a 'Troop' choice which can score, whatever the rulebook says about walkers. Also, let's think logically about the scoring rule anyway. Are you telling me a Dreadnought couldn't hold an objective from enemies anyway? Of course it could. I know it's a seperate issue but that rule is fricking clown shoes anyway...

So there is no real right or wrong on these rules - you have to agree with your opponent on any rule you feel is ambiguous, but that's my ten pence worth anyway.

I'm aiming for a 3000 point army - what are people's views on the usefulness of Storm Ravens? They are such an ugly model but if they serve a decent purpose then I'd consider one.

Lemt
03-22-2011, 04:01 PM
Sorry chaps, but walkers WOULD become scoring units. Feel free to interpret the sentence however you like but 'as if they were troops' means you ignore the type of unit and treat them as if they were an infantry troop choice. If you're going to read the sentence literally word for word and be pedantic...
The fact it is a walker has nothing to do with the argument at all. It has become a 'Troop' choice which can score, whatever the rulebook says about walkers. Also, let's think logically about the scoring rule anyway. Are you telling me a Dreadnought couldn't hold an objective from enemies anyway? Of course it could. I know it's a seperate issue but that rule is fricking clown shoes anyway...

So there is no real right or wrong on these rules - you have to agree with your opponent on any rule you feel is ambiguous, but that's my ten pence worth anyway.

I'm aiming for a 3000 point army - what are people's views on the usefulness of Storm Ravens? They are such an ugly model but if they serve a decent purpose then I'd consider one.

So you say orks can have scoring walkers?

As for Storm Ravens, they're good. Unless he's the only thing moving up to your army, then he's just a good distraction. However, GK Ravens being anti-infantry hurts them a bit IMHO.

Unzuul the Lascivious
03-22-2011, 05:25 PM
So you say orks can have scoring walkers?

Don't be facetious...:)

Tynskel
03-22-2011, 09:31 PM
I think the mindstrike missiles are worth it. A lot of big things are psykers. Mephiston would be screwed by a Stormraven, for example. You don't get cover saves from Perils of the Warp. Hive Tyrants will eat it, same with Tervigons. Daemon Princes that take psychic powers too.

Hellz, grey knights will get mucked up by mind missiles. Especially since you re-roll successful inv saves. A squad of paladins can get mucked up by 4 blast mind missiles. You might even kill some of them with the str 4 too.
Firing at psychic vehicles puts on auto-glancing hits.

DarkLink
03-23-2011, 12:42 PM
Actually, since only one model in the squad is actually a psyker at any given time for anything targeting psykers, GKs will just be rather annoyed at Mindstrike missiles. That one guy is screwed, but at least it's just one guy.

Lemt
03-26-2011, 09:38 AM
I've extended most of the review, fixed a few errors and typos, and added a section about Librarian powers.


Actually, since only one model in the squad is actually a psyker at any given time for anything targeting psykers, GKs will just be rather annoyed at Mindstrike missiles. That one guy is screwed, but at least it's just one guy.

Don't forget most vehicles in the GK codex are psychic too.

Crevab
03-27-2011, 12:27 AM
Sorry chaps, but walkers WOULD become scoring units. Feel free to interpret the sentence however you like but 'as if they were troops' means you ignore the type of unit and treat them as if they were an infantry troop choice.

By the BRB, to be a scoring unit you need to be:
A: in the FOC Troops section
B: not be a vehicle

Unyielding Anvil only makes a unit "claim objectives as if they were Troops". B still exists for Walkers, sorry.


But then again, the quality of specifics is rather low in this book is rather low, so FAQ needed.

Crevab
03-27-2011, 12:39 AM
Vortex of Doom: Don't. Pick. This. EVER. Normally failing a psychic test means just that, the power won't work. In the case of this power, it'll hit you. With full force. And it won't scatter. So you'll die a terrible death. And one well deserved for choosing this power.

So there's a 1 in 6 chance the blast will be centered over you. Still not as bad as you make it seem

DarkLink
03-27-2011, 01:09 AM
Actually a 1 in 12 chance of failing a psychic test at ld 10. Either way, Grey Knights don't really need ap 1 that badly. It's not a bad power, considering you can take it for 5 points and still take all the other powers you want. It's not a must-have, though.

Crevab
03-27-2011, 02:15 AM
1 in 12? I roll an 11, I fail. A 12, fail and Perils.

Lemt
03-27-2011, 07:38 AM
The odds of failing the test ARE normally low (1/12th is correct). But add in things like Shadow in the Warp and Eldar runes and it doesn't seem so low. Also, think of expected returns if the power hits compared to the effect if you miss the power. If you hit there's a 1/3 chance of the attack not scattering. At BS4, there's a 83.33% chance it will scatter beyond your BS, 72.22% chance that it will scatter too much to hit a vehicle or similar-sized target. So your odds of hitting what you want, assuming you target a high-value unit such as a vehicle or a unit of terminators, are not so hot. That's without counting the odds of the blast hitting your own units.

Compare this to other powers available. Warp Rift, for example, seems like a better choice. You auto-hit, and can cause real damage. Vehicles take an automatic penetrating hit! Other units need to pass an initiative test, so you have an 83% chance of killing a Carnifex (or other I1 miniature), and a 33% chance of killing any I4 miniature, saves be dammed.
The range difference isn't that big either. 12" of the Vortex is enough to be within assault range of the enemy, so you might as well get a bit closer and assault yourself.


TL: DR There are other, more powerful spells with lower risks in your arsenal.


1 in 12? I roll an 11, I fail. A 12, fail and Perils.

Here are the odds for you:
1 ways to roll 2 on 2D6 2,78% 2,78%
2 ways to roll 3 on 2D6 5,56% 8,33%
3 ways to roll 4 on 2D6 8,33% 16,67%
4 ways to roll 5 on 2D6 11,11% 27,78%
5 ways to roll 6 on 2D6 13,89% 41,67%
6 ways to roll 7 on 2D6 16,67% 58,33%
5 ways to roll 8 on 2D6 13,89% 72,22%
4 ways to roll 9 on 2D6 11,11% 83,33%
3 ways to roll 10 on 2D6 8,33% 91,67%
2 ways to roll 11 on 2D6 5,56% 97,22%
1 ways to roll 12 on 2D6 2,78% 100%

Taken from:
http://polyticks.com/home/Dice/TrivialApplet.html

So the odds of rolling 11 or 12 are 8.34%.

Murph
03-28-2011, 01:52 AM
Thank you lemt for your appraisal. While I dont necessarily agree with everything you say, I thank you for the effort.

I dont know why everyone is getting their panties all bunched up in a knot over scoring vehicles........why the bloody hell would you want a unit so frail as to die to one lucky shot be an objective holder?

I think that termies are better than paladins for two reasons. Troops and cost. To make paladins fast enough to be viable you half to invest in a storm raven or land raider, skyrocketing their already enormous tag price. And to make them scoring you have to through a grandmaster in the list. I challenge anyone to name a unit that paladins can destroy and not termies.

Thats what badlists in this book come down to. On the discussion premise of competitiveness and not theme, the downfall of so many lists lie in overkill. "im gonna take a unit of paladins, make them scoring, throw them in a bolstered building along with a techmarine and then cover them with shrouding from a librarian." "im gonna take 10 man strike squads with every option cuz it makes them dead killy." So youve just invested easily 350+ points on one unit? Why not take two squads half as small with the most minimum necessary? Use tactics to protect them and use them in support of each other. More units equals more options.

Gamers hammering out Grey Knight lists honestly come across as 8yr old girls dressing up barbie and ken.

Units I like

Ordo malleus inq. w/ termie armour, psycannon, mastery 1 @110pts
-3 wound model toting another relentless psycannon messing with the reserve game for 65 points less than a grandmaster. Yes, i did want that extra razorback in the list.

5x terminators w/ psycannon, 4 halberds, mastercrafted daemonhammer @ 230pts
-if youre desperate for another attack throw on the brotherhood banner which also helps with any Multiwound models you may run into. Bodyguard for the inquisitor listed above.

5x strike knights w/ psycannon, mastercrafted daemonhammer + raz with psybolt @ 175pts
-completely able to deal with most tactical situations. Coupled with the inquisitors, EVERY reserve tactic is rendered ineffective. Reduces your opponents tactical options consequently increasing your own.

5x purgators w/ 4 psycannons + raz with psybolt @ 230pts
-astral aim is one incredible power, instead of hopping out on the forward side of the tank being left open for retribution theyll just get out the back and be completely safe whilst dealing death in the 24" bubble.

Murph

celestialatc
03-28-2011, 09:28 AM
Thanks for your review Lemt. I am sure I will have this printed out with my Grey Knights Codex figuring out lists!

dethangel
03-28-2011, 09:56 AM
By the BRB, to be a scoring unit you need to be:
A: in the FOC Troops section
B: not be a vehicle

Unyielding Anvil only makes a unit "claim objectives as if they were Troops". B still exists for Walkers, sorry.


But then again, the quality of specifics is rather low in this book is rather low, so FAQ needed.

i really dont understand why people cant get this though they're heads.
1st the wording is "claim objectives as if they were Troops". this does not make them troops. it means they can score. period........
even though the BRB sayes vehicals cant score. the BRB also sayes Codex OVERIDES BRB(page 62 in the AoBR rule book look under smoke launchers bottom paragraph) i quote " as NORMAL, the rules in the codex take precedence." ... so that means YES GK DREDs CAN SCORE so stop crying about scoring dreds... i go through this same argument with my DA ravenwing scoring land speeders.

Lemt
03-28-2011, 10:48 AM
i really dont understand why people cant get this though they're heads.
1st the wording is "claim objectives as if they were Troops". this does not make them troops. it means they can score. period........
even though the BRB sayes vehicals cant score. the BRB also sayes Codex OVERIDES BRB(page 62 in the AoBR rule book look under smoke launchers bottom paragraph) i quote " as NORMAL, the rules in the codex take precedence." ... so that means YES GK DREDs CAN SCORE so stop crying about scoring dreds... i go through this same argument with my DA ravenwing scoring land speeders.

About DA, I take it you mean Ravenwing Attack Squadrons with Land Speeders, in an army with Sammael? Sammael makes those Land Speeders troops, sure. But that DOES NOT make them scoring. Nothing in the DA codex says it makes LSs scoring, it says it makes them TROOPS. Much different.
Back to GKs, the rules for the Grand Master makes them scoring AS If THEY WERE TROOPS, so they follow the normal rules for troops scoring. AKA vehicles can't score.

You seem to be bending the rules to justify an army you play, I'm afraid. And/or you're in denial. :rolleyes:

dethangel
03-28-2011, 11:14 AM
About DA, I take it you mean Ravenwing Attack Squadrons with Land Speeders, in an army with Sammael? Sammael makes those Land Speeders troops, sure. But that DOES NOT make them scoring. Nothing in the DA codex says it makes LSs scoring, it says it makes them TROOPS. Much different.
Back to GKs, the rules for the Grand Master makes them scoring AS If THEY WERE TROOPS, so they follow the normal rules for troops scoring. AKA vehicles can't score.

You seem to be bending the rules to justify an army you play, I'm afraid. And/or you're in denial. :rolleyes:
:mad:
actualy the DA codex says very clearly quote" much like combat squads. the squadron's attack bike and land speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always operate as comlpetely independant SCORING UNITS of one model."
this is for raven wing Land speeders only..
so how am i bending the rules? maybe if you take the book to someone that can read they can explain it to you...
"AS IF" does not make them troops. it allowes them to score. so how am i twisting that one?
just because you dont like the rule, doesnt mean it's wrong .

Lemt
03-28-2011, 11:32 AM
:mad:
actualy the DA codex says very clearly quote" much like combat squads. the squadron's attack bike and land speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always operate as comlpetely independant SCORING UNITS of one model."
this is for raven wing Land speeders only..
so how am i bending the rules? maybe if you take the book to someone that can read they can explain it to you...

"AS IF" does not make them troops. it allowes them to score. so how am i twisting that one?
just because you dont like the rule, doesnt mean it's wrong .

Sorry, I missed that section in page 27 of the Dark Angels codex. I'll blame it on the rule being split into 4 differents part of the codex. :confused:
So yes, DA Land Speeders are scoring.

Still, you should see that's different from what it says on the Grey Knights codex. The DA version says "they are scoring." The GK version says "they can claim objectives as if they were troops." The first is a rule that overrides the normal rules for troops scoring. The second tells you to follow the normal rules for troops scoring, but allows non-troops to "count as" troops.
That's how I think you're twisting the rule. But please, no need for angry faces. I'm sort of like a bull, and I hate red. :D


EDIT: Almost forgot, and completely unrelated. I added two more "combos" to the review.

dethangel
03-28-2011, 12:29 PM
Sorry, I missed that section in page 27 of the Dark Angels codex. I'll blame it on the rule being split into 4 differents part of the codex. :confused:
So yes, DA Land Speeders are scoring.

Still, you should see that's different from what it says on the Grey Knights codex. The DA version says "they are scoring." The GK version says "they can claim objectives as if they were troops." The first is a rule that overrides the normal rules for troops scoring. The second tells you to follow the normal rules for troops scoring, but allows non-troops to "count as" troops.
That's how I think you're twisting the rule. But please, no need for angry faces. I'm sort of like a bull, and I hate red. :D


EDIT: Almost forgot, and completely unrelated. I added two more "combos" to the review.

sorry for the snippy remark but i don't cheat or bend rules to my favor so i was a little offended.:)
im glad you took the time to look up the DA codex rule. most people would just blindly argue.
back to the GK rule.
i believe from the few notes i jotted down the other day at the game store. under grand strategy rule it says D3 infantry, jump infantry, monstorus creatures,and WALKERS in your army.
one of 4 choises they all benefit from that one choise
A. reroll failed wounds of 1's
B. counter-attack
C. scouting
D. claim objectives AS IF they were troops.
im not 100% if it sayes scoring there anywhere.
if i can't claim objectives with walkers. why would it give me the choise to?
in 5th it says only troop choises can Score or Claim Objectives. Right?
yes it does go on to say that vehicals cant score. but the Gk codex overides the BRB by giving the Walkers the option to Claim objectives. do you see where im coming from?
Codex trumps BRB i even gave an example in an earler post. im not trying to cheat im following the logic. it could and should be better explained in the rules i agree. :)
Edit BRB page 90 quote" an army's scoring units come from its TROOPS allowance. the presence of other units may deny an objective to the enemy, but only TROOPS can control it. there are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of TROOPS does not count as scoring:
if its a vehicle. if its a swarm. if it has a special rule"
the key word TROOPS. this means TROOP VEHICLES can not score but the GK master never makes them troops so the vehicles cant score claus doesn't apply here only the claim objective part applies.

Lemt
03-28-2011, 12:48 PM
I'd say they wrote it that way just so it would be shorter. The way it's written, it would allow you to give walkers A, B and C, but they don't need to specify they can't claim objectives.
Then again, GW tend to write unclear rules, so I'll say what I always say: let's wait for the FAQ/Errata. As an example, the FAQ/Errata for the Tyranid codex says Shadow in the Warp doesn't work on embarked units, something not hinted at in the rules anywhere, and I'd say a change from the previous edition.

Mr.Pickelz
04-03-2011, 11:35 PM
codex trumps BRB? SWEET! my warboss can has LD31 thanks to mob rule...:rolleyes:

Walkers can score as if they were troops, if you give D3 units that ability. That makes sense. Even though the 41st Millennium isn't known for it's common sense, i think it's pretty clear here. Since that rule gives walkers the ability to score, which adds/overrides their current rules, That means your giving a unit the ability to score when they did not have the ability, to score, before.

Lemt
04-04-2011, 01:43 AM
codex trumps BRB? SWEET! my warboss can has LD31 thanks to mob rule...:rolleyes:

RAW, yes, you could say so. Enter the Errata/FAQ. There it specifies Orks can't go over Ld10.

jason84
10-31-2011, 08:45 PM
Hi Everyone

regarding the Lord Draigo and his 10 strength, because i am VERY new is anyone able to explain to me

why is that good at deamons?

i have linked stats for chaos deamon Bloodthirster

Bloodthirster

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Bloodthirster 10 4 7 6 4 5 5 10 4+

and you compare that to Lord draigo

Lord Kaldor Draigo

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Lord Kaldor Draigo 7 6 5 5 4 5 4 10 2+

can anyone explain with these stats how lord draigo can beat blood thirster?

repeat i am still new so pardon my question if you guys find it stupid

cheers

Hive Mind
10-31-2011, 09:11 PM
It's not the stats really, it's his weaponry. Because Draigo carries the Titansword (a Nemesis Force Sword) he only has to score one wound on the Bloodthirster to have a chance of killing it outright. Because the Bloodthirster is a Daemon, Draigo will wound it on a 2+. In addition, because the Titansword has the Daemonbane rule, if the Bloodthirster does suffer an unsaved wound from Draigo but is not killed outright it has to pass a LD test at the end of the Assault phase. If it fails, it's removed.

By the way, there is no such thing as a stupid question.

jason84
10-31-2011, 10:09 PM
thanks for that Hive Mind

much apreciate your reply

just one more question you were saying 2+ to wound that stat is only applies to deamons and pyskers

is that correct?

Bean
11-01-2011, 10:56 AM
It's not the stats really, it's his weaponry. Because Draigo carries the Titansword (a Nemesis Force Sword) he only has to score one wound on the Bloodthirster to have a chance of killing it outright. Because the Bloodthirster is a Daemon, Draigo will wound it on a 2+. In addition, because the Titansword has the Daemonbane rule, if the Bloodthirster does suffer an unsaved wound from Draigo but is not killed outright it has to pass a LD test at the end of the Assault phase. If it fails, it's removed.

By the way, there is no such thing as a stupid question.

Also worth noting: Titansword isn't a Nemesis Force Sword, it's just a force weapon (that's mastercrafted and has Daemonbane and that strength 10 thing).

Still, not a Nemesis weapon, which is important because it means he doesn't have a 2+ invulnerable in combat.

Denied
11-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Also worth noting: Titansword isn't a Nemesis Force Sword, it's just a force weapon (that's mastercrafted and has Daemonbane and that strength 10 thing).

Still, not a Nemesis weapon, which is important because it means he doesn't have a 2+ invulnerable in combat.

Very True, but he does have the 3+ Storm Shield so yeah still a total Bada$$

Hive Mind
11-01-2011, 02:04 PM
thanks for that Hive Mind

much apreciate your reply

just one more question you were saying 2+ to wound that stat is only applies to deamons and pyskers

is that correct?

The Titansword strikes at S10 against Daemons, Psykers and units that contain either a Daemon or a Psyker so usually it would be wounding on a 2+, yes.


Also worth noting: Titansword isn't a Nemesis Force Sword, it's just a force weapon (that's mastercrafted and has Daemonbane and that strength 10 thing).

Still, not a Nemesis weapon, which is important because it means he doesn't have a 2+ invulnerable in combat.

Noted.

Bean
11-02-2011, 09:33 AM
Very True, but he does have the 3+ Storm Shield so yeah still a total Bada$$

No kidding. I've been playing paladins, and at first I really figured he wouldn't be worth his immense cost. Now, I basically think he is. He's super hardcore, and that stormshield/eternal warrior combo saves paladins from lascannons and meltas and whatnot all the time.