Some argued Core rules and IG / Chaos SM / BA codex questions

[Wildcard]

Hi!

I am a former lurker and now a new member :)
I am a huge fan of BoLS with all the cool rumors, articles and rules interpretations!

So, now to the questions that have risen in our small gaming group. I hope that answers do not just come in form of "RAW", as we are not native English speakers, and as such, many of the rules we "use" are because of the different interpretations and different levels of understanding English.

1. How much you must see from a vehicle to be able to shoot it
- Wing tip of a flyer?
- Furthermost piece of a track of the tank, just barely visible from behind a building? <|
( < is the tip of the track, and | is the wall)
- Can a Land Raider fire its sponson, if the tank itself is fully in cover behind a building? O|
( O is the sponson and | is the wall)
-- And if the LR is able to fire, can it be fired back? (since we have understood, that you cant just target and fire sponsons / turrets)

2. Does Company Commmander come IC after all veterans / advisors etc have died?
-If the CC is regular, nameless dude.
-If he is named hero,Castellan Creed for example.

This is an issue, because of all the talk about retinues etc. I know that doesn't state anywhere in the IG dex that Company Commander has retinue, but i feel that i have read on some forums (most likely here on BoLS) that they would become ICs after the dead of the other members of the squad?

3. Units in a base size different than "intended"
- I have put missile launcher(s) on a single small base, and to accompany them a weapon carrying models. I have created a models that clearly show they are part of the HWT (i.ex, carrying ammo, or work as a spotter..). The "assisters" do not shoot or hit in cc, they are merely a "Wound markers".
-I have heavy bolters / lascannons / autocannons on large "appropriate" bases,
- The reason I feel that the Missele troops are "legit" is because of the model range available at games-workshops website (tallarn heavy weapon troops in particular.)

4. Stormraven bloodstrike missiles
- Can they be fired at any direction, measuring from any point of the model / hull, or are they 2+2 on the points of the models missile weapon mounts? And can they be fired, say from the right wing to the target at left of stormraven (kinda through the hull of the skimmer)?

5. How to determine which units are demons in Chaos Space Marine army, since there is no "Demon" unit type.

6. Multiple barrage
-How is it determined that which weapons are this type? I know that in the rulebook an example of mortars is being used in the matter. But is a manticore a multiple barrage -type? - squadron of leman russes or basilisks? (i know Leman Russ dont have a barrage weapon, but squadron still fires multiple large blast -markers)

7. Lumbering Behemot special rule: Does it allow Russes to fire all of its weapons even if it moved combat speed, or does it just allow the 1 weapon fired to be "ordnance"

8. Is Psyker Battle Squads weaken resolve a "negative modifier" or a ability that sets the LD stat to a particular level?

Whats your opinion in these -our- issues?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

-Wildcard-

[Denzark]

Hi!

I am a former lurker and now a new member :)
I am a huge fan of BoLS with all the cool rumors, articles and rules interpretations!

So, now to the questions that have risen in our small gaming group. I hope that answers do not just come in form of "RAW", as we are not native English speakers, and as such, many of the rules we "use" are because of the different interpretations and different levels of understanding English.

1. How much you must see from a vehicle to be able to shoot it
- Wing tip of a flyer? No, wings aerial weapons don;t count, must be the hull, if only a little bit.
- Furthermost piece of a track of the tank, just barely visible from behind a building? <|
( < is the tip of the track, and | is the wall) yes because the track attaches to the hull.
- Can a Land Raider fire its sponson, if the tank itself is fully in cover behind a building? O|
( O is the sponson and | is the wall) yes, this would be tactically good.
-- And if the LR is able to fire, can it be fired back? (since we have understood, that you cant just target and fire sponsons / turrets) It would be very hard to see only the sponson to return fire, if you were directly in front of it. I would allow shots at sponsons, but not say at just a stormbolter on a post on top of the tank if you can't see the hull.

2. Does Company Commmander come IC after all veterans / advisors etc have died?
-If the CC is regular, nameless dude.
-If he is named hero,Castellan Creed for example.

This is an issue, because of all the talk about retinues etc. I know that doesn't state anywhere in the IG dex that Company Commander has retinue, but i feel that i have read on some forums (most likely here on BoLS) that they would become ICs after the dead of the other members of the squad?

3. Units in a base size different than "intended"
- I have put missile launcher(s) on a single small base, and to accompany them a weapon carrying models. I have created a models that clearly show they are part of the HWT (i.ex, carrying ammo, or work as a spotter..). The "assisters" do not shoot or hit in cc, they are merely a "Wound markers".
-I have heavy bolters / lascannons / autocannons on large "appropriate" bases,
- The reason I feel that the Missele troops are "legit" is because of the model range available at games-workshops website (tallarn heavy weapon troops in particular.)

I believe GW tournaments (in UK) rule you can use the base provided - ie old terminators on small bases. If it is old tallarn with small bases this would be OK. should you go against pissy players or tourneys I would have a magnet onto a larger base for the wep team.

4. Stormraven bloodstrike missiles
- Can they be fired at any direction, measuring from any point of the model / hull, or are they 2+2 on the points of the models missile weapon mounts? I would say from the wepon mount and out at 45 degrees like a fixed weapon, ie vindicator And can they be fired, say from the right wing to the target at left of stormraven (kinda through the hull of the skimmer)? no this would be a bit naughty

5. How to determine which units are demons in Chaos Space Marine army, since there is no "Demon" unit type. Daemon princes, greater daemons, lesser daemons, possessed.

6. Multiple barrage
-How is it determined that which weapons are this type? I know that in the rulebook an example of mortars is being used in the matter. But is a manticore a multiple barrage -type? - squadron of leman russes or basilisks? (i know Leman Russ dont have a barrage weapon, but squadron still fires multiple large blast -markers) multiple barrage would be shots from a Squadron of barrage weapon firers, so not LR.

7. Lumbering Behemot special rule: Does it allow Russes to fire all of its weapons even if it moved combat speed, or does it just allow the 1 weapon fired to be "ordnance" I thought it to be one more than normal but haven't got the codex to hand.

8. Is Psyker Battle Squads weaken resolve a "negative modifier" or a ability that sets the LD stat to a particular level? I think this has been done to death and the consensus is it doesn't work against stubborn, so modifier?

Whats your opinion in these -our- issues?

Thanks in advance for all your help!

-Wildcard-

Hey Wildcard, I'll give you my considered opinion, with the caveat that there are better rules lawyers here, but heregoes in red above.

[Demonus]

5. How to determine which units are demons in Chaos Space Marine army, since there is no "Demon" unit type

Avatars from the Eldar are also considered Daemons, in case you happen to fight those :)

[Tynskel]

things like IG questions about company commanders becoming ICs. Does it say IC in their profile? If not, then they cannot become an independent character.

Things like weapon mounts: Is the weapon a sponson, turret, or fixed? This is usually clear on a model. For the Stormraven, the "multi-melta" and blood strikes are fixed. The most those weapons can 'swivel' is the small firing arc. The Hurricane Bolters are sponsons, and can only swivel as far as the mount will allow it. The Assault Cannons are a Turret, and can pivot a large radius, once again, limited only by obstructions.
Pretty much, what the weapon looks like it can do.


Also, questions about what to shoot on a tank: Read the section on targeting a model. For 'infantry' it is the core body. For 'vehicles' is is the 'hull'.

As for barrage weapons/blast weapons. Read the section on blast weapons and barrage weapons. The rules are clear how these weapons fire.

[Wildcard]

Thanks for your replies!



Things like weapon mounts: Is the weapon a sponson, turret, or fixed? This is usually clear on a model. For the Stormraven, the "multi-melta" and blood strikes are fixed.

The issue concerning this escalated into such a furious state it almost ended the game :)
The owner of the stormraven was confident that the missiles on the wings were just a "decorations" and he had the liberty to put them where ever he wanted (used normal Hunter-Seekers as an example, an many pictures where the missiles could have been put on turret / hull and they could point in any direction..)

As such, he claimed that it wasn't stated anywhere in the codex that there are 2 Bloodstrikes on each wing and they are pointing straight forward with 45 degree firing arcs.

(Eventually he said that he will rip off the missiles from the wings and put equivalent missiles to turret or under the hull to the fan formation, so that he would be able to cover ~180 degrees with them.. -this story is irrelevant though to the original problem tho-)



Also, questions about what to shoot on a tank -- For 'vehicles' is is the 'hull'

Now this. I (and my gaming group) know that the "main lump" is the "hull".. however, even though it might be a bit meticulous approach, it has caused some fights in our gaming group. (A problem when group consists of a "nice guy" , "stubborn" , "easily irritated" and one who "plays only to win" gamers :) )

Hence the track-question.

The definition for word hull: The body or frame of a vessel such as a ship or plane.
(Yes, we even go that far most of the time to check the dictionary)

So, practically tracks aint hull, as aren't wheels etc. But they aren't "wings", "sponsons", "antennae" or other appendage that has been clearly stated in the rules.

Original scenario was this: my opponent had parked his vehicle (Rhino chassis if i remember right) behind a bastion, so that only a fraction of the front track was visible. I was however able to point the tiny dot of a laser pointer to the "tip of the track".. First ~30min debate was whether or not i was able to fire, and after that another 30mins what would the cover save be :) That debate included RAW - talk of 4+ save, since i could see less than 50% of it. A voice was raised for a 2+ cover save as well, to represent an almost impossible hit..




As for barrage weapons/blast weapons. Read the section on blast weapons and barrage weapons. The rules are clear how these weapons fire.

on p.32 weapon rules section: "Multiple barrages: If a unit has more than one barrage weapon--"
The unit this particularly concerns is the Manticore. Since it has only 1 weapon (p. 54 IG dex - "Note that only a single rocket can be fired by a manticore launcher each turn) , that still can "produce" up to 3 large blast markers. (I just expanded my question to affect other units in case it would have lead to some (or any) contradictioning situations.

[DarkLink]

1. How much you must see from a vehicle to be able to shoot it
- Wing tip of a flyer?
- Furthermost piece of a track of the tank, just barely visible from behind a building? <|
( < is the tip of the track, and | is the wall)
- Can a Land Raider fire its sponson, if the tank itself is fully in cover behind a building? O|
( O is the sponson and | is the wall)
-- And if the LR is able to fire, can it be fired back? (since we have understood, that you cant just target and fire sponsons / turrets)

LOS is drawn from the firing weapon to any point on the enemy unit/vehicle. So if your land raider is completely hidden behind a wall, but one sponson is sticking out, the land raider can fire that sponson at anything that that sponson can see. This may prevent you from firing the land raiders other weapons if the wall prevents them from being able to draw LOS to anything.

If you can see any part of an enemy vehicle's hull, then you can shoot it. You ignore extraneous bits like weapon barrels and antenna, and the rule could be a little bit more clear about what you do and do not ignore, but if you can see the other vehicles tracks or something similar, you can shoot it.

Following these rules, it is not necessarily true that just because a land raider can see and shoot a predator the predator can shoot back. The predators weapons may be positioned in a way that prevents them from drawing LOS to the land raider, but still exposes the predator to the land raider's shooting.



2. Does Company Commmander come IC after all veterans / advisors etc have died?
-If the CC is regular, nameless dude.
-If he is named hero,Castellan Creed for example.

No, in both cases I believe. For a character to have the IC special rule, there must be something that grants it to them. If they have it listed in their statline, or have a special rule that grants it to them, then they are an IC. If they do not, then they are not ICs. I don't believe any imperial guard units are independent characters other than the commissar lord.



This is an issue, because of all the talk about retinues etc. I know that doesn't state anywhere in the IG dex that Company Commander has retinue, but i feel that i have read on some forums (most likely here on BoLS) that they would become ICs after the dead of the other members of the squad?

There used to be a set of rules for retinues. Now, they no longer exist. If you don't see a rule in your codex or cannot find an applicable one in the rulebook, it isn't there. The whole retinue thing is pretty much all fluff now.



3. Units in a base size different than "intended"
- I have put missile launcher(s) on a single small base, and to accompany them a weapon carrying models. I have created a models that clearly show they are part of the HWT (i.ex, carrying ammo, or work as a spotter..). The "assisters" do not shoot or hit in cc, they are merely a "Wound markers".
-I have heavy bolters / lascannons / autocannons on large "appropriate" bases,
- The reason I feel that the Missele troops are "legit" is because of the model range available at games-workshops website (tallarn heavy weapon troops in particular.)

You base models using the base they come on, or based on what the current production model is. If you buy some really old Terminators, they'll come with small bases. If you convert a carnifex, though, it had better be on the same size base as a normal carnifex.

In your case, hwts should be on a large base. The IG codex changed the rules on how hwts work. They are no longer a heavy weapon and a separate "assistant". They are a single, two wound model on a large base. If you bought an older set of models that do not allow for this setup, then you can go with it. But if you are using a new kit, you must use a large base for heavy weapons.





7. Lumbering Behemot special rule: Does it allow Russes to fire all of its weapons even if it moved combat speed, or does it just allow the 1 weapon fired to be "ordnance"

It allows you to fire whatever you would normally be able to shoot, plus the ordinance weapon. If you move, you would not normally be able to fire all of the Russ's sponson, so the rule does not allow you to fire all of them.

[Wildcard]

Thanks alot! you have been really helpful so far :)


You ignore extraneous bits like weapon barrels and antenna, and the rule could be a little bit more clear about what you do and do not ignore, but if you can see the other vehicles tracks or something similar, you can shoot it.

What about sponsons in general then? if i can draw LOS to a sponson armor plating (like leman russ sponson), or to the core component of the weapon system (Hurricane bolter - or its mounting - or armor plates that might be protecting it). Can those be fired at?

Or what about BaneBlades sponsons, that are kinda as big as stormravens turret?
Or BaneBlades turrets on top of sponsons? :)

Since those targets contain much more than just barrels or antennae, dozer blades etc. is mentioned in the rulebook.

However, rulebook says only viable "target points" are "hull" or "turret", and then what to ignore..

i have begun to understand what you meant by saying that the rules could be a bit more clear.. :)

-Wildcard-

PS. on page 59 on rulebook, vehicles rule section, 4th bullet point, it seems to me that its all about pintle mounted weapons, so when stated about the firing arc on those weapons that are mounted to a hull, does it really mean that f.ex rhinos pintle mounted weapons can only fire on a 45 degree arc? I know that hull mounted weapons like demolisher cannon on vindicator act like this (but its already covered on 2.nd bullet point).. So what about this?

[DarkLink]

Unfortunately the rules for what you do and do not ignore are a little vauge. It's easiest just to agree on things with your opponent. Generally, though, as the weapon sponsons aren't part of the hull of the vehicle, they don't count.

[steelmage99]

Hi!

I am a former lurker and now a new member :)
I am a huge fan of BoLS with all the cool rumors, articles and rules interpretations!

So, now to the questions that have risen in our small gaming group. I hope that answers do not just come in form of "RAW", as we are not native English speakers, and as such, many of the rules we "use" are because of the different interpretations and different levels of understanding English.

1. How much you must see from a vehicle to be able to shoot it
- Wing tip of a flyer?
- Furthermost piece of a track of the tank, just barely visible from behind a building? <|
( < is the tip of the track, and | is the wall)
- Can a Land Raider fire its sponson, if the tank itself is fully in cover behind a building? O|
( O is the sponson and | is the wall)
-- And if the LR is able to fire, can it be fired back? (since we have understood, that you cant just target and fire sponsons / turrets)

A vehicle can only be fired at if you can draw LOS to the hull.
How do you define "Hull" when it comes to different vehicles? Well, the rules aren't very good at defining it, so you have to work it out with your opponent.

And yes, a Land Raider can fire its sponson-weapon if the sponson is exposed in such a way that LOS can be drawn from the mounting of the weapon (along the barrel) to the target.
And no, this does not automatically mean that the Land Raider can be fired back at (simply by virtue of having fired in the turn before). You have to determine if you can actually draw LOS to the hull of the Land Raide, in order to fire at it.

Yes, this means that the Land Raider can put itself in such a position (depending on circumstances, of course) where it can legally fire at a given target and that target is not allowed to fire back.



2. Does Company Commmander come IC after all veterans / advisors etc have died?
-If the CC is regular, nameless dude.
-If he is named hero,Castellan Creed for example.


Only characters that are Independent Characters to begin with, will ever be (or become) independent characters.
So we are, when it comes to IG, talking about Lord Commisar, Yarrick, Primaris Psyker and inistorum Priest. These are the only Independent Characters in the IG army list.
Company Commanders and the like are simply members of their respective squads.


This is an issue, because of all the talk about retinues etc. I know that doesn't state anywhere in the IG dex that Company Commander has retinue, but i feel that i have read on some forums (most likeely here on BoLS) that they would become ICs after the dead of the other members of the squad?

An Independent Character does indeed lose (to some extent) his Independent Character status when he joins a Retinue (notice the use of capitals here) and regains it when he is the only one left (as he cannot leave his Retinue).
But this isn't a situation that will ever occur in IG armies as they don't have any units with the Retinue rule. Keep in mind that the Retinue rule is basically a leftover from 4th and isn't worth learnig the details about. I believe only Black Templars and Dark Angels still have them.


3. Units in a base size different than "intended"
- I have put missile launcher(s) on a single small base, and to accompany them a weapon carrying models. I have created a models that clearly show they are part of the HWT (i.ex, carrying ammo, or work as a spotter..). The "assisters" do not shoot or hit in cc, they are merely a "Wound markers".
-I have heavy bolters / lascannons / autocannons on large "appropriate" bases,
- The reason I feel that the Missele troops are "legit" is because of the model range available at games-workshops website (tallarn heavy weapon troops in particular.)


By the letter of the law (or the rules anyway) you must use the bases that the models were supplied with. I recommend keeping a few 60mm bases with the models so you can satisfy any hurt feelings.
Keep in mind that it is you that aren't following the rules (without accusing you of cheating or anything :)), so be prepared to play them the "right" way.
This becomes completely irrelevant if we are actually talking about Tallarn models (or the like) as you are then forced to use the bases THEY came with.



4. Stormraven bloodstrike missiles
- Can they be fired at any direction, measuring from any point of the model / hull, or are they 2+2 on the points of the models missile weapon mounts? And can they be fired, say from the right wing to the target at left of stormraven (kinda through the hull of the skimmer)?


You are SOL, my friend. GW promised us that they would define the placement/arc of fire of each individual weapon on each individual vehicle.
Unfortunately, they lied.
This means you will have to work it out amongst yourselves.



5. How to determine which units are demons in Chaos Space Marine army, since there is no "Demon" unit type.

Check the FAQs


6. Multiple barrage
-How is it determined that which weapons are this type? I know that in the rulebook an example of mortars is being used in the matter. But is a manticore a multiple barrage -type? - squadron of leman russes or basilisks? (i know Leman Russ dont have a barrage weapon, but squadron still fires multiple large blast -markers)

Which weapons are Barrage? Only those with Barrage written in their description (or having a "G" before the range, if in an older codex).
A Manticore is not firing a Multiple Barrage as only several Barrage weapons fired together counts as a Multiple Barrage. The Manticore is armed with a single weapon that fires several shots. It is a different thing.
A squadron of Basilisks? Now there are several Barrage weapons firing together.



7. Lumbering Behemot special rule: Does it allow Russes to fire all of its weapons even if it moved combat speed, or does it just allow the 1 weapon fired to be "ordnance"


I suggest a quick reread of the Lumbering Behemoth rule. There seem to be several misunderstandings here.
This rule allows the Leman Russ to fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it may fire.

So, what does this mean?

It mean that where any other vehicle would be allowed to fire one(1) Main Weapon (strength 5+) and any Defensive Weapons (strength 4 or less) when moving 6" or less, the Leman Russ is allowed to fire one(1) Main Weapon (say a hull-mounted Lascannon or a single sponson-mounted Heavy Bolter), any Defensive Weapons (like a Heavy Stubber or some such) AND whatever weapon is in the turret (regardless of the turret-weapons strength).

Normally when firing an Ordnance weapon you are not allowed to fire any other weapons. This restriction is lifted if the Ordnance Weapon in question is the one mounted in the turret.

Note that this does not make any weapon in the turret count as being Ordnance (as I get that feeling from your post), it simply lifts the restriction from firing any other weapons even if the turret weapon is Ordnance.




8. Is Psyker Battle Squads weaken resolve a "negative modifier" or a ability that sets the LD stat to a particular level?

It is a negative modifier. Is this a trick question?:)

[Wildcard]

Thanks again for the plentiful answers!


Keep in mind that it is you that aren't following the rules -- This becomes completely irrelevant if we are actually talking about Tallarn models

-Well this i feel is highly absurd (not to blame you - but the rulemakers ;) ) Although i have had a lot conversation about the issues this "downgrading" of bases brings (less scattering from blast markers can still more easily miss f.ex) i feel that it is stupid, if not even unfair, that if i wished a unit to operate the weapon by itself, i would have to buy a certain (if obsolete) model to do so, that its still however available on the IP-owners webstore O_o

TBH, i have not done this to bend the rules or anything, i still have all the other heavy weapon teams on 60mm bases.. it just feels stupid that a weapon size of a panzerschreck would need a bi-pod and a mate to help you operate it, on such a close proximity.

Also, on the gameplay side - IG is probably the only race that can't bring heavy weapons to certain IP-owner scenery products.. more specificly "Imperial Sector" the building set for cities of death + a normal game. The platforms of the building tiers are only 45mm and hence can't accommodate 60mm bases (of the IGs heavy weapons). Yet there are plenty of other factions that can "fit" into those buildings and bring on devastating fire. Devastators, havocs,noisemarines, tau troops in general, ork Lootas. Dont know about nids, necrons or eldar, cos i have never played against them..

Do you know if this is some kind of "balance" thing, or just something that haven't been thought throu? Or is it just another neglected setting for a spinoff ruleset?



I suggest a quick reread of the Lumbering Behemoth rule. There seem to be several misunderstandings here.
This rule allows the Leman Russ to fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it may fire.

This is the case where interpretation errors have occured due to foreign language :) At first we played it so, that russ was allowed to fire ALL of its weapons (turret, hull mounted, both sponsons, heavy stubber + hunter seeker, if it had those) if it moved at combat speed.. no wonder it felt a bit over powered back then.. but had only few games like it.. after that we decided it must mean that even if it moves it can fire ordnance, and so it has stayed - until now, apparently. This was a good one (as all the points have been).


Note that this does not make any weapon in the turret count as being Ordnance (as I get that feeling from your post)

A message not so intended. Just a bad choosing of words and a lack of skills in target language ;)




Quote:
8. Is Psyker Battle Squads weaken resolve a "negative modifier" or a ability that sets the LD stat to a particular level?
It is a negative modifier. Is this a trick question?

No tricks here.. I do not know if it is the way the IG codex is written, or is the codex that bad, or is it just purely me, but i find it really hard to understand some of the abilities in the IG codex - Weaken Resolve being one of them.

It just feels to leave so many questions (wich i found out on BoLS forums, after i had brought it up here).
It seems that there are two schools of thinkers in here.
- Others think it is a modifier, so it won't affect stubborn or fearless units.
- Others think it sets the base value of the LD to a certain level for a turn, and any LD tests you are forced to take that turn are used on that "new base value" with no negative modifiers due to casualties, special banners etc.. And fearless units don't get affected in any way (unless they are psykers that try to use psychic powers)

[Daemonette666]

A side sponson is basically a side mounted, limited arc Mini-turret. I would allow my opponent to shoot the tank if they could see the body work of the sponson, but not just the weapons barrel.

Remember the sponson is just an extension of the body. Behind the sponson is an open gap that leads into the innards of the tank, just as the main turret of the tank can be a valid target because an ammo explosion in the turret can cause the whole tank to explode. It is not as if the Imperial guard or Space Marine tanks have C.A.S.E. in their turrets and side sponsons to protect the rest of the tank from an ammo explosion. (Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment is a Battletech term for those who do not know).

[steelmage99]

@Daemonette666.

From a realism standpoint you may be right, but from a rules standpoint you are dead wrong.

The rules are clear; you must be able to draw LOS to the hull or turret to target a vehicle. If you are only able to draw LOS to a sponson, you may not fire.

[steelmage99]

@Wildcard

The smaller basses vs. larger bases is not a case of one being "better" than the other. Each one has its advantages and drawbacks.
While it may seem absurd, it is simply the rules.

Comparing the IG Missile Launcher to a Panserschreck is somewhat flawed.
I believe a more accurate comparison would be to the Carl Gustav, which do uses a bipod (can be fired without it though) and is crewed by a two man gunner/loader-team.

When it comes to ruins I don't have any problems. My teams balances just fine on the various ruins made by GW. Otherwise just invoke the "Wobbly Model" rule from the rulebook.

As to why GW changed to using a large base to represent a two-wound HWT model as opposed to two separate models.......well, the two-model solution had its own set of problems and this just happens to be the solution they use now. :)


Re. Weaken Resolve.

Well, both Stubborn and Fearless units gets effected....

BUT!!

Stubborn units might get their Leadership reduced, but when taking the test they still use their unmodified Leadership because that is what Stubborn tells us.

And Fearless units might have their Leadership reduced as well, but they automatically pass the test when required to take it (if required at all) whether their Leadership is 10, 8 or 2.....hell it might be a negative number. It doesn't really matter as they auto-pass.

[daboarder]

wow dude, you must play with the cheesiest buggers on the planet. Where do you get the "60ml base can't fit on the second level of a cod building" its nto in the rules thats for sure, hell Dreads and trygons can climb buildings.

[Tynskel]

@Daemonette666.

From a realism standpoint you may be right, but from a rules standpoint you are dead wrong.

The rules are clear; you must be able to draw LOS to the hull or turret to target a vehicle. If you are only able to draw LOS to a sponson, you may not fire.

That's not quite correct.

If you could only see the sponson, and if that meant if the sponson wasn't there, you could still draw LOS of the hull, you could shoot the target.
+++++++++++++
++Tank ++++++++
++------++++++++ <sponson
-----------------+++++
-----------------------++
-----------------+++++
++------++++++++ <sponson
|||||++||||| <---Hedge
+++^++++++++++
+++|++++++++++
+++|++++++++++
+++|++++++++++
++Shot+++

[steelmage99]

I am not sure what you mean, Tynskel.

Are you refering to if the sponson blocks LOS to the hull?
I don't seem to get your illustration. Could you try in Paint, please?

[Tynskel]

perpendicular. The shot is coming perpendicular to the side hull, but the only visible part of the tank is the sponson, due to obstructions. You can still shoot the tank, because behind the sponson is the hull.

[steelmage99]

Ah, I see what you mean.

I totally agree with you that that should be the case, and I will at any time play it like that.

The rules disagree with us though.

[Tynskel]

I disagree. The Sponson may not be a target, but it is apart of the vehicle, and 'extras' do not prevent one from shooting a target, just as a rock on the base does not provide cover.

[steelmage99]

The requirement to be able to draw LOS to either hull or turret in order to shoot is clear.

Here you are mixing three rules together;

1. The rule on page 16 concerning general use of Line Of Sight.

2. The rule on page 21 concerning scenic ricks and decorative elements placed on a models base and how it affects cover.

3. The rule on page 60 concerning how to target vehicles.


- Note that page 55 tells us that the rules for vehicles differ in a number of ways from the rules for other models.

3. tells us how to target and draw LOS to vehicles. This means that 1. is overwritten. Also keep in mind that 1. talks about elements you cannot target, while 3. talks about elements you must target.

2. is about coversaves and that isn't what we are talking about here. In any case 2. talks about scenic elements on the base which isn't relevant for vehicles.

*Should you feel a need to point out that some vehicles do use bases and that you could mount a piece of paper on a little arm extending from the base, keeping the paper in front of the model, in such a way that your vehicle cannot be targeted.....well, then don't.
That is about "modeling for advantage" and that is a different issue than what we are discussing here.*

It is like I said earlier.


I totally agree with you that that should be the case, and I will at any time play it like that.

The rules disagree with us though.