Drawing a line with Eldar

[Bedroom General]

Hiya Blosketeers,
I am about to re launch my Eldar, repainted and all mysterious like.
well anyway I had this idea....
Three individual vibro cannon heavy support platforms, each with an attached warlock (embolden) for the BS4 sets me back 240 pts.
These guys can be totally hidden and can draw a 36" line anywhere on the table. when fired in single units this is st4, does a D6 wounds to every non vehicle unit hit by the line (including those in H2H!) and Auto glances!!! every vehicle hit!!!
One of these platforms will create a large bubble of ,I suppose, a mild threat, but three, I can see them being a real pain, especially with the list I'm working up (1500pts)
Any comments or experiences?

I just think its nice that Eldar have a wrinkle or two yet to be exploited.:)

[DrLove42]

Embolden doesn't affect BS, only WS (i think)...unless i'm thinking of the wrong thing

Also those 3 will fill your Heavy Supports, limiting you to other long range. And its very hard to glance a vehcile to death...

[scadugenga]

DRLove's right on the embolden, but wrong in thinking that's how you get a BS4 shot. :)

The warlock is BS4, so he shoots the gun.

You don't actually need to take a power for your warlocks. It's not mandatory.

That being said, you really do handicap yourself in the HS choices by having 3 separate st.4 vibro cannon. By combining them, you get 1 str 6 shot, but 3 chances for it to hit.

[Bedroom General]

Wow I never realised that warlocks didn't have to take a power! I'll still take embolden though 'cos its cheap, and usefulish. Glancing is a good thing. Every Warlock attached to an Artie piece can use its BS so I'll take 3 x BS4 and the three potentials for glancing over one chance with a unit of three, despite the s6. Which doesn't matter with the auto glance. I'll definitely try this out. At 1000pts this would be a laugh!

[eagleboy7259]

DRLove's right on the embolden, but wrong in thinking that's how you get a BS4 shot. :)

The warlock is BS4, so he shoots the gun.

You don't actually need to take a power for your warlocks. It's not mandatory.

That being said, you really do handicap yourself in the HS choices by having 3 separate st.4 vibro cannon. By combining them, you get 1 str 6 shot, but 3 chances for it to hit.

Can you get me a codex or rulebook quote on this? My understanding has always been:

Each Warlock must take 1 warlock power. They cannot have more than one, nor do they have the option of taking extra powers.

I don't see how the Warlock can shoot the artillery, the unit rules in the 40k rulebook state that it can only be fired by a crew member - aka the Guardians. Same way that support platforms can only be fired by the two crew models in the squad. Independent Characters or other models joining the squad cannot fire artillery.

-and artillery units can't run in the shooting phase.

[Frankio9]

Sure, Vibro cannons anti-tank? Good luck with -3 on the Vehicle Damage chart.

[davel]

embolden is a good choice as it stops them running off the board ( REROLL FOR MORAL not BS or Ws boost)

a farseer with guide ( and doom as well) will help

the problem with artillery in 5th

1) dawn of war they have to walk on on not shoot in the first turn.
2) true line of sight means they are hard to hide and being guardians easy to kill.

I have tended away from artillery as I like thefast moving nature of my eldar force. How ever I concede that against armies with tanks hiding behind more tanks (chimera wall) it's potential to by pass this defense and supress tanks is tempting.

Dave l

[Bedroom General]

Frank, I'm happy with shaken,stunned,weap dest options.

[Frankio9]

Frank, I'm happy with shaken,stunned,weap dest options.

Alright, but you do need to roll high for not much damage. There are much more effective anti-tank units out there. And against infantry the Nightspinner is much more effective.

[Da Gargoyle]

BG - The Warlock can not confer his skill or fire some one else's weapons. Enhance improves initiative and WS but not BS and that is the closest you would get to that kind of thing. I think conceal is a better option to enhance but that is your choice. Finally he must take one option off the list and conceal gives you the best return for reasonable points for that unit. Like the other lads said, vibro cannon are definitely anti infantry but if you want to use them against armour you need 6's for weapon destroyed because of -2 for glance and -1 for no AP. And of course that only works on AV10, which has to be facing you I believe, (I could be wrong about that with Vibro) However if you want more chances to damage, field two batteries of two and keep the third slot open for another heavy.

[Da Gargoyle]

So is my face red or what? :confused: I just read my codex and got a few things wrong in the last post.
Warlocks do not have to take a psychic power and conceal is more expensive than I thought. I still don't think embolden is worth it though. The cost of a warlock and his power, 30 points all up to re-roll moral. The casualties are likely to be so high that you wont have a chance to re-roll, after all there is just the Warlock and two guardians & the gun of course. Overall I am not sure what value a warlock is to the unit.

As for the Vibro cannon, I saw that any vehicle is auto glanced when hit and you are rolling multiple hits to damage unless you are unlucky. But you still need to roll 6 for any meaningful result and you need to hit the target first. So while one gun sounds attractive, you have a 50 / 50 chance of hitting anything. With two guns the odds to hit go up in your favour, i.e roll two D6 to hit. So if you are going to use them, I still say 2 guns x 2 units.

I also agree with earlier comments, at the risk of opening my mouth to change feet. Artillery is very vulnerable. If the gun is hit, it's rated AV10 and glancing or penetrating means the weapon is destroyed. So watch out for those S4 and up templates, something like a whirlwind or earthshaker or even an Ork lobba gets very dodgy for you.

[Bedroom General]

I'm pretty sure that you can use the BS of the Warlock, or I wouldn't take 'em.
I'd also be hiding 'cos they don't need LOS.

[Roadkill Zombie]

Page 55 of the main rule book, third paragraph says you CAN use the Warlock's BS when shooting one of the Vibro Cannons. So if you had a unit of three of them, you would shoot two with BS 3 and one with BS 4. If any of them hit then all of them hit. Once they hit you will auto glance any vehicle that crosses the line 3 times and take -3 off of the damage roll.

They are great for stopping IG mech from firing while inside their Chimeras. But they won't last more than one or two turns vs guard usually.

They are an unexpected trick to use if you play Swooping Hawks as you use those to cause a stun or immobilized result in vehicles and attack it next turn with your Swooping Hawks. All of their grenades will then auto hit and probably kill the vehicle. If your smart with your Hawks you can assult either a Squadron or multiple vehicles if they are close enough.

[scadugenga]

Page 55 of the main rule book, third paragraph says you CAN use the Warlock's BS when shooting one of the Vibro Cannons. So if you had a unit of three of them, you would shoot two with BS 3 and one with BS 4. If any of them hit then all of them hit. Once they hit you will auto glance any vehicle that crosses the line 3 times and take -3 off of the damage roll.

They are great for stopping IG mech from firing while inside their Chimeras. But they won't last more than one or two turns vs guard usually.

They are an unexpected trick to use if you play Swooping Hawks as you use those to cause a stun or immobilized result in vehicles and attack it next turn with your Swooping Hawks. All of their grenades will then auto hit and probably kill the vehicle. If your smart with your Hawks you can assult either a Squadron or multiple vehicles if they are close enough.

You are only partially correct.

Regardless of the number of guns in the battery, you only ever draw one line, not 3. The only area open for discussion is if you draw a line through a vehicle squadron--does the line only affect the vehicle/s it touches, or does it act like hitting a squad, and the squadron take 1d6 hits? I've played it both ways and there's still no concrete/clear answer.

[Astral Platypus]

I had a friend that used two units of vibrocannons in conjunction with either Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons, or Harlequins. When there is a unit coming in to assault the tanks afterwards this tactic is pretty efficient. For infantry killing I think you have better options.

[Roadkill Zombie]

You are only partially correct.

Regardless of the number of guns in the battery, you only ever draw one line, not 3. The only area open for discussion is if you draw a line through a vehicle squadron--does the line only affect the vehicle/s it touches, or does it act like hitting a squad, and the squadron take 1d6 hits? I've played it both ways and there's still no concrete/clear answer.

Actually I am completely correct.

Read what I wrote again. I never said you draw three lines. However the vehicle DOES take three hits. One for each vibro cannon in the battery.

As far as squadrons go, since you divide the number of hits between the squadron as you do for regular shooting, each vehicle in the squadron would take one hit if you were using a vibro cannon battery with three vibro cannons and you rolled a hit result.

[scadugenga]

Actually I am completely correct.

Read what I wrote again. I never said you draw three lines. However the vehicle DOES take three hits. One for each vibro cannon in the battery.

As far as squadrons go, since you divide the number of hits between the squadron as you do for regular shooting, each vehicle in the squadron would take one hit if you were using a vibro cannon battery with three vibro cannons and you rolled a hit result.

Sorry, Roadkill, you're wrong. Wishful thinking, perhaps. You only get hit once, not three times. You just get three chances to hit to draw the single line.

Page 45: " If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single line* from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes suffers d6 hits."

Now onto the vehicle part: "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single* glancing hit"

Nowhere in the codex entry does having three vibro cannons entitle you to multiple hits for having more than one cannon in the unit. The only thing that having a multiple cannon unit does is provide a greater chance for the weapon to take effect (by rolling a successful to-hit) and increased strength of the attack against non armor-value targets.


* bolded/italicized for the reading comprehension impaired...

[Roadkill Zombie]

Sorry, Roadkill, you're wrong. Wishful thinking, perhaps. You only get hit once, not three times. You just get three chances to hit to draw the single line.

Page 45: " If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single line* from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes suffers d6 hits."

Now onto the vehicle part: "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single* glancing hit"

Nowhere in the codex entry does having three vibro cannons entitle you to multiple hits for having more than one cannon in the unit. The only thing that having a multiple cannon unit does is provide a greater chance for the weapon to take effect (by rolling a successful to-hit) and increased strength of the attack against non armor-value targets.


* bolded/italicized for the reading comprehension impaired...

See, your misreading it. Look at it again. it says "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit" I propose to you that you misread that as being the whole battery. It doesn't. It means one cannon because the battery can be one cannon, two cannons, or three cannons. Therefore if you were using one cannon then the vehicle with the armor value would only get hit once. If your battery included two vibro cannons then it would get hit twice because it specifically says " A vibro cannon" meaning singular, not plural.

However, since there are three cannons, the vehicle would be hit three times.

Again, A target with an armor value that is hit by "A" vibro cannon<-------single cannon here....always suffers a single glancing hit. So hit by two cannons means two hits, and hit by three cannons means three hits.

BTW, notice I'm not talking about on non Armor Value targets so in our discussion I am not discussing the d6 hits. Nor am I talking about the one line you draw from any vibro cannon if they do hit. I don't have to discuss that, we all know thats how it works.

However the target with the Armor Value does take a single glancing hit for A vibro cannon...and since there are three cannons, thats three hits.

Also note that it does not say "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a Vibro Cannon Battery always suffers a single glancing hit.

It says hit by "A" Vibro Cannon.

The reason it says "A single glancing hit" is because they didn't want people thinking that a vibro cannon battery with more than one vibro cannon would get more than one hit per vibro cannon.

And I'm not reading comprehension impaired. Your the one that doesn't seem to grasp the concept of the word/letter "A" meaning single, not plural. So I take your little comment at the end of your last post as being very rude and should have been directed at yourself.

[scadugenga]

See, your misreading it. Look at it again. it says "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit" I propose to you that you misread that as being the whole battery. It doesn't. It means one cannon because the battery can be one cannon, two cannons, or three cannons. Therefore if you were using one cannon then the vehicle with the armor value would only get hit once. If your battery included two vibro cannons then it would get hit twice because it specifically says " A vibro cannon" meaning singular, not plural.

However, since there are three cannons, the vehicle would be hit three times.

Again, A target with an armor value that is hit by "A" vibro cannon<-------single cannon here....always suffers a single glancing hit. So hit by two cannons means two hits, and hit by three cannons means three hits.

BTW, notice I'm not talking about on non Armor Value targets so in our discussion I am not discussing the d6 hits. Nor am I talking about the one line you draw from any vibro cannon if they do hit. I don't have to discuss that, we all know thats how it works.

However the target with the Armor Value does take a single glancing hit for A vibro cannon...and since there are three cannons, thats three hits.

Also note that it does not say "A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a Vibro Cannon Battery always suffers a single glancing hit.

It says hit by "A" Vibro Cannon.

The reason it says "A single glancing hit" is because they didn't want people thinking that a vibro cannon battery with more than one vibro cannon would get more than one hit per vibro cannon.

And I'm not reading comprehension impaired. Your the one that doesn't seem to grasp the concept of the word/letter "A" meaning single, not plural. So I take your little comment at the end of your last post as being very rude and should have been directed at yourself.

I'm misreading nothing, you're just interpreting the rules incorrectly/cheating to make the unit more powerful than written.

You can't seem to understand the concept of "a single line." The entire entry is clearly written to give you multiple chances to hit, and only 1 effect. Your intimation that you get to apply the effects three times against a single vehicle is cheating. I feel sorry for anyone you play who allows you to do this.

And while I had no specific intent to say that you are reading comprehension impaired, your response clearly shows that you do not have the ability to understand the codex entry. Either that, or you are intentionally cheating your opponents.

Either way, I'm glad I don't know you in person, as I would refuse to allow you to play that way.

[Roadkill Zombie]

I'm misreading nothing, you're just interpreting the rules incorrectly/cheating to make the unit more powerful than written.

You can't seem to understand the concept of "a single line." The entire entry is clearly written to give you multiple chances to hit, and only 1 effect. Your intimation that you get to apply the effects three times against a single vehicle is cheating. I feel sorry for anyone you play who allows you to do this.

And while I had no specific intent to say that you are reading comprehension impaired, your response clearly shows that you do not have the ability to understand the codex entry. Either that, or you are intentionally cheating your opponents.

Either way, I'm glad I don't know you in person, as I would refuse to allow you to play that way.

You keep harping on the "single line" thing just because I didn't mention it in my first post. I didn't have to. It's pretty clear that you draw a single line from whichever vibro cannon you choose to. But that has nothing to do with anything other than targetting.

you are completely misreading it as you still don't get it.

The codex entry is called a "Support Weapon Battery"

The whole entry reads" A vibro cannon uses resonant sonic waves to shake its targets apart and fling troops to the ground. When firing a vibro cannon battery {notice here they mention the whole battery}, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit {notice here they make a distinction between a vibro cannon and vibro cannons}, they draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon{again, they make a distinction between one and more than one} in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon {again, they make a distinction between one and more than one} in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannons {again, notice the distinction of more than one} rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit it touches takes d6 s6 hits.

A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a vibro cannon{notice this time they specifically mean one vibro cannon, not three, not two, but only one. If they meant more than one they would have said vibro cannons, not vibro cannon. Or they would have said vibro cannon battery} always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armour penetration."

So as you can finally clearly see, you get three hits with a battery of three, two with a battery of two, and one with a battery of one. And in all cases against anything other than a target with an Armour Value, you get d6 hits.

It's not cheating, its called knowing the rules. I don't cheat, you just don't understand the rules properly.

Anyway, since you won't change my mind and I won't change yours its back to that agree to disagree thing so common on the internet.

[scadugenga]

I tell you what, you want to prove me wrong--take the unit to Adepticon, 'Ard Boyz, or any other established and well run official tournament and try to play it your way.

Your opponent (if he has 1/4th of a brain) will call you on it. Then escalate it to a T.O. and get a ruling.

If they rule in your favor (without you having bribed them beforehand) get it in writing and/or youtube it for documentation.

Then go buy a lottery ticket, 'cause obviously it's your ridiculously lucky day.