Grey Knight Librarian Tactica

[Herr Major]

Given how amazing the librarians powers are for a small army count like grey knights, it seems like a "mandatory" HQ choice, or at least that's what everyone keeps saying.

My huge problem with this unit stems from my local gaming group. There is an Eldar player who has, with great joy, changed his lists to always include that rune on his farseer that makes you roll psychic tests with three dice (forgot what it was called, and it's exact ability), and will have it camp in a holo-falcon all game zipping around for cover saves.

Needless to say, I'm a bit frustrated by this and really don't want to play at his game by arranging my list, so my question is thus.

Is the psychic hood on the librarian good enough to counter that ability, or is it static? Does psychic hood save you from things like shadow in the warp too or not? I'd really like to use this unit, especially since I'm making my own, but if this is a losing uphill battle then I'll have to rethink my list ideas.

Thanks!

[dark_phoenix]

psychic hoods don't work against eldar runes or shadow in the warp anything like that. All they do is attempt to stop the opponent getting their powers off.

So your eldar friend is going to make you roll your psychic tests on 3d6 now until you kill the farseer. I play eldar and always take the runes of warding as they are called. They are near enough mandatory gear now against most opponents.

[Herr Major]

Then is the risk worth it? Shrouding and quicksilver seem like really really important tactica for such a small army size...

[MaltonNecromancer]

Surely enough Vindicare assassins will hush his yap?

[Herr Major]

He's keeping it locked inside a Holo-Falcon, even with the massive pen he's zipping around the board getting a cover save. Vindicare helps but is by no means a guaranteed solution >< far as I can tell at least

[plawolf]

Well, with all the psycannons you should be taking as standard, a halofield falcon really shouldn't be too much of a bother, especially if you take psybolt ammo with them (does that still add 1 to S?).

GKs are a shooting army mostly before, and seems to have kept that flavor after the revamp of the codex. Their main strengths lies in mobile firepower from stormbolters. NFW being actual force weapons as well as powers like hammerhand help make them an all rounded force, but they do not need to be in CC asap like BA.

The only power GKs really benefit from outside of CC are shrouding, but you should be able to deploy your force with as much cover as possible anyways to start off with, so just rely on cover saves for the first turn and focus fire with psycannons to bring down the Falcon and save a Vindicare round for the Farseer if he survives the crash.

If your entire army cannot kill a Falcon in a turn or two, you probably have bigger problems than runes of warding.

[SonicPara]

He's keeping it locked inside a Holo-Falcon, even with the massive pen he's zipping around the board getting a cover save. Vindicare helps but is by no means a guaranteed solution >< far as I can tell at least

You could throw down 4x Psycannon Purgation squads by the truckloads. Three of them will get you 48 shots that may not need line of sight (this is tough to pull off with the runes of warding). You'll be laying down S7 shots like Epic Meal Time does bacon.

[Herr Major]

Yeah, was taking as many psycannons as they could carry because of how versital they are so I'm glad to hear that is a step in the right direction. Are purgation squads really better than purifier squads with 4 psycannons? Is astral aim worth the extra cost per squad? I ask this mainly because I plan to run 2 Dreadknights normally, and maybe a landraider in anything above 2500 pts

[plawolf]

Yeah, was taking as many psycannons as they could carry because of how versital they are so I'm glad to hear that is a step in the right direction. Are purgation squads really better than purifier squads with 4 psycannons? Is astral aim worth the extra cost per squad? I ask this mainly because I plan to run 2 Dreadknights normally, and maybe a landraider in anything above 2500 pts

Well if you are taking twin dreadknights and an LR, you won't be able to take purgation squads because of FoC.

Astra aim is pretty interesting, as you can shoot pretty much anything in range not meched up, and from the wording could also be used to reduce a unit's cover save if its better than 4+, which is pretty cool, but everything you shot with this power get an auto 4+ save, and it is a psy power, so would be subject to Runes and Shadow.

Purifiers also rely on psy tests for Cleansing Flame, so they are in the same boat in that regard, but they would be more reliant on their power, since Cleansing Flame is much more central to them than Astra Aim is for purgation squads. That would be something to consider if you are facing Runes or Shadow or Hoods etc.

I think the biggest difference would be how you deploy the squads. Purgation squads are like your normal devastators in that they are a static shooty unit, and would be vulnerable to flankers or deep strikers just the same (since you are loosing NFWs for most of the squad to get psycannons etc).

Purifiers are more about close range fire support and CC, so should be leading the charge into the heart of the enemy army. I would be more tempted to give them psilencers because you don't loose shots for moving.

Which you take would therefore depend on your FoC slots available from the rest of your army as well as how you like to play. But it is perfectly possible to take both if you have the slots and points, so it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'this or that' choice.

[DarkLink]

Keep in mind that he's probably spending 250+ points to hinder your 150+pt librarian, and it's not like the librarian is completely useless. You can just save the psychic powers for when you really, really need them, and just use him as a non-psychic HQ otherwise. Psycannons and rifledreads are just about the best means in the game for killing eldar skimmers now, so while 1/6 of his army is doing nothing but turbo-boosting around, you can kill the rest of his guys.

[plawolf]

Since all of your squads and vehicles have psy powers, he is doing a bit more than just hindering your Librarian.

Its also a dangerous game to play leaving the farseer and waiting to use powers till you need them the most, since you would actually need those powers at that point, so the costs to you when those powers don't work or worse, you suffer a perils attack is much more significant.

Something I forgot before is that if you are really concerned about Runes or Shadow, then as many Brotherhood banners as you can take is well worth the points since all psy tests are auto passed with the banners.

If you can get banners on your key squads and can play the rest of your army effectively without needing powers, ignore the holo Falcon and chew through the rest of his army and watch his farseer cry that he didn't see that coming.

[eagleboy7259]

Keep in mind that he's probably spending 250+ points to hinder your 150+pt librarian, and it's not like the librarian is completely useless. You can just save the psychic powers for when you really, really need them, and just use him as a non-psychic HQ otherwise. Psycannons and rifledreads are just about the best means in the game for killing eldar skimmers now, so while 1/6 of his army is doing nothing but turbo-boosting around, you can kill the rest of his guys.

You don't do Eldar without Farseers. Whether in a Falcon, Wave Serpent or Jetbike Council you know that Farseer is going to be protected somehow. Saying that he's spending 250+ points just to hinder a libby is like saying that he's taking a troops choice to hinder your claiming objectives. In reality he's spending 15pts to stop your libby. Don't count on your libby vs Eldar, your powers only have about a 50% chance of going off. Holo-field Falcons are dang hard to get rid of, and to make matters worse, the powers he's using out of it aren't shooting attacks so shaken and stunned rolls don't really stop him from casting. Then its still a 2 turn deal because you have to pop the transport and then kill the duders inside.

[Herr Major]

All really great advice, I appreciate it greatly! :)

Since my heavy support slot will be filled most of the time, and I probably won't be filling my elite slot all the time, I figure I'd probably run a venerable rifleman (if that works) being an elite choice, but should it walk in, or does the meta game dictate that it should be dragged in by a stormraven now, especially given the option?

[DarkLink]

Yeah, you can take a ven. rifleman. It's not worth the extra 60pts over a normal dread if you have an open heavy slot, though.


Since all of your squads and vehicles have psy powers, he is doing a bit more than just hindering your Librarian.

Grey Knights don't really rely on their psychic powers, particularly against eldar. Eldar don't have many multi-wound models to need to force weapon, and with T3 and small squad sizes GKs will cut them down in CC even without hammerhand. Cleansing Flame would be nice against Harlequins or the like, but that's later in the game anyways.



Its also a dangerous game to play leaving the farseer and waiting to use powers till you need them the most, since you would actually need those powers at that point, so the costs to you when those powers don't work or worse, you suffer a perils attack is much more significant.

Well you obviously kill the farseer if you get the chance. But with the exception of Cleansing Flame, Grey Knights likely won't have any desperate need of their psychic powers.



Something I forgot before is that if you are really concerned about Runes or Shadow, then as many Brotherhood banners as you can take is well worth the points since all psy tests are auto passed with the banners.

And considering you get extra attacks from it as well, it is well worth the points. But does it allow all their psychic powers to autopass or just force weapons?



If you can get banners on your key squads and can play the rest of your army effectively without needing powers, ignore the holo Falcon and chew through the rest of his army and watch his farseer cry that he didn't see that coming.

Pretty much. I don't think psychic powers will come into play too much against Eldar. Psycannons versus skimmers will likely be the determining factor.

[Whoop!]

Do Grey knight still have to roll to see if perils of the warp take them when using brotherhood banners?

[dannyat2460]

Do Grey knight still have to roll to see if perils of the warp take them when using brotherhood banners?

No they automaticaly pass there test so its an automatic result of 3-10 on the dice no perils but the test can still be stoped by psy hoods ext as its the same as them passing the test

[Herr Major]

I was under the impression the banner only auto cast the force power, though if it does work for any other psychic power, wouldn't it be a mute point if you could just attach the librarian to some unit that has the banner to get the benefit? or does it not spill over to any IC attached to the squad?

[plawolf]

All really great advice, I appreciate it greatly! :)

Since my heavy support slot will be filled most of the time, and I probably won't be filling my elite slot all the time, I figure I'd probably run a venerable rifleman (if that works) being an elite choice, but should it walk in, or does the meta game dictate that it should be dragged in by a stormraven now, especially given the option?

If you are going with a rifleman build, then there is no question you should be walking it.

Since your rifleman is built for range, it gains no benefit and instead looses out on a lot of shooting turns if its stuck in the hold of a SR.

Only BA seem to greatly benefit from the SR as they have dedicated CC dreds. GK dreads are more of an overall support unit with some decent ranged options (really annoyed they don't have any GK specific weapons choices. I mean would it be too much to ask that they at least give GK dreds a heavy or TL psycannon option?) and reinforced aegis for ven ones. Plus with ignoring shaken and stunned, they are very effective fire and psyker support choices.

[plawolf]

Yeah, you can take a ven. rifleman. It's not worth the extra 60pts over a normal dread if you have an open heavy slot, though.

Depends very much on who you are fighting.


Grey Knights don't really rely on their psychic powers, particularly against eldar. Eldar don't have many multi-wound models to need to force weapon, and with T3 and small squad sizes GKs will cut them down in CC even without hammerhand. Cleansing Flame would be nice against Harlequins or the like, but that's later in the game anyways.

GKs would not be hopeless without their psy powers, but their effectiveness would undoubtably be diminished if their powers were effectively shut down.

While the bulk of GK's offensive umph comes from CC powers, all GK units have some decent defensive powers as well, which would come in handy from the start.


Well you obviously kill the farseer if you get the chance. But with the exception of Cleansing Flame, Grey Knights likely won't have any desperate need of their psychic powers

Shrouding, aegis (the power that allows GK vehicles to ignore shaken and stunned), summoning are all powers you would want working every turn.

If you are fighting Eldar, their farseer is a top priority target. If you do not actively try to kill him/her off early, you are putting yourself at an unnecessarily disadvantage.

It would be like fighting space puppies and deliberately ignoring his long fans because they are in cover and it will be a pain to shift them.

Will you auto-loose if you ignore them? Probably not. But will you be in a better position if you took them out early? Absolutely.


But does it allow all their psychic powers to autopass or just force weapons?

I have not have a chance to read the wording in the codex myself yet, but that's what I have gathered so far from others.

[DarkLink]

Depends very much on who you are fighting.

Think of it this way: for every two ven. dreads you take, you can get three normal dreads. I'll take the three normal dreads. Three normal dreads are tougher than two vens, and can put out a lot more firepower.

I stick by my statement that, if you can, save points on a normal dread over a venerable. If the only way to get a rifleman into your list is to take a ven, that's fine. But the 60 extra points aren't worth it otherwise.

Now for a frontline dread, that may be a different story. If I want a psycannon dread backing up my guys and providing Reinforced Aegis coverage, then the extra durability might be worth it, since I'm much more exposed and not as likely to be getting cover.



While the bulk of GK's offensive umph comes from CC powers, all GK units have some decent defensive powers as well, which would come in handy from the start.

Librarians have some decent defensive powers. Aside from Librarians, essentially every GK psychic power is CC oriented, and won't likely come into play until later in the game. I'm not disagreeing that psychic defenses will be annoying, but against Eldar there will be far more important things that will come into play.



Shrouding, aegis (the power that allows GK vehicles to ignore shaken and stunned), summoning are all powers you would want working every turn.

Fortitude is the power that lets GK vehicles ignore shaken and stunned. But aside from that, all the other powers are on the Librarian. If you don't have a Librarian, that's a lot less to worry about for you.



If you are fighting Eldar, their farseer is a top priority target. If you do not actively try to kill him/her off early, you are putting yourself at an unnecessarily disadvantage.

And this is actually what I'm really trying to say, I guess. I'm not worried about a farseer because he has runes of warding. I'm worried about a farseer because he has Fortune and Guide. I don't really care about Doom because he can try to pass his ld6 psychic test for targeting my dudes if he wants too. Reinforced Aegis is awesome.

[quinn]

The Brotherhood Banner only applies to Force weapons, no other powers.