Stuff competitive I want fun!!!!

[GeordieGenius]

OK guys, I play IG and my mate is a CSM player. I believe that it is nigh on impossible for him to beat me, not because he doesn’t know what he is doing but because the IG are just so devastating against an army that is basically all combat (compared to the IG) and has very little mobility (they should have drop pods, I don’t understand why they don’t). It just feels for everyhting he can do my lists have an answer, the Master of the Fleet, messes with reserves, my auto cannons pop rhinos, the melta vets pop LRs and large blasts kill everything.

SO I ask you all this, what two armies are the most fun to play against each other, I don’t care about them being the most competitive, as we live in Thailand and we are the only 2 players there ain’t gonna be any tournaments. We are going to buy 2 more armies to play as it’s dull now, it’s like 16-3 to the IG.

So people what do you think??????

I was thinking Tyranids and Orks…..but don’t play them so don;’t really know.

[HsojVvad]

Tyranids and Orks... that can be a potential lots of minis on the table. As a guard player you should know that.

Orks seem fun, but never played them. Tyranids I enjoy, but it takes more work to play with. This might or might not be something you want. It's not so easy as SM or IG. At least it will be a different play style for you.

[GeordieGenius]

I know dude, but we want, fun......carnage, not just me destroying my friend by turn 3......I want two armies that are comparative and fun, we want to never know who is gonna win....turn 5 being an unknown....that's gaming not something that is over by turn 3 and then it's just mechanics..... so what do you think??? Are there 2 such armies???

[BuFFo]

What two armies to use?

How about IG and CSM?

Seriously. I know I am going to sound insulting, but why don't you stop making lists that just counters his?

how about you take other units, like sentinels, Ogryns, less vehicles, conscripts?

Because honestly, my friend is a chaos player, and he can cream most IG lists just fine. I don't know what models you guys own, but either your friend does just suck, or your list just counters his and you guys don't change it up, or you guys use the models you have, and can't use anything else.

1) he sucks. He'll suck no matter the army.
2) Your list counters his. Stop doing that!
3) You are limited by your models. Um, instead of buying new armies, just expand what you have with models you don't use?

Just make two lists that the two of you will enjoy battling each other with. There is actually ZERO reasons you guys can't make lists that will be fun to use against each other.

[Rapture]

I understand that it is fun to get a new army. Consider the Dark Eldar or Eldar. I enjoy playing against both of them. I play Tau and Space Marines. Some of the matches are really close (some are no contest as well).

If you are good with the armies you have now consider a handicap. Play 2000 vs. 2500. It will be fun for you because it should add a challenge. It will be fun for him because he will be able to compete.

[GeordieGenius]

Dude, we've got everything, I've played different lists every time, all infantry, I think I've meched up twice and found it boring, Orgyns have been used on numerous occasions and I don't know what he's using before I get to the table.

For instance I'm going to use a special forces list next week all vets with forward sentries, storm troopers and ....NO tanks at all, but that still equates to over 200 lasgun shots a turn, I'm not afraid to charge and assault his troops (shot gun verts with 3 plasma guns, com and sgt both with powerfist and plasmapistol...). I've played Gaunts ghosts with the old WD rules and still every game equates to a slaughter.

I've posted on sights all over the web and they all comeback with the same answers, which appear to be CSM are not competitive against IG. So after all that and unless we run out of sink point lists, what do you suggest.

[HsojVvad]

For something quick, how about you become Chaos, and he becomes IG? This way you can have that change game, while making a new army for each other.

It's hard to say which 2 armies would be good agaisnt each other. Too many people say Tyranids suck. Then you have people coming in and say they clean up with them. The same goes for Tau. A few people say they wipe people up with Tau.

So before even thinking of starting a new army and spending all that time, and money, why not switch with each others armies. This way, you can see if you like the feel of 3+ saves with bolters and what not, and your friend can see if he likes to field alot of vehicles or less saves.

This way maybe he can go Ork vs Tyranids or Eldar vs SM. Grey Knights is coming out, so it will be hard to see what will be 50/50 win on turn 5. Maybe Tau vs Necrons right now?

Maybe Witch Hunters vs Eldar, 3rd edtion vs 3rd edtion. Since it's late at nite here, and a weekend wait a bit, you will get some good input in a few days. Then again, it's March Break here, not sure if the rest of the World has it, so it could be a week before some great input comes in.

Sorry I can't be of any help except for the You become Chaos, he becomes IG, you shouldn't know who wins right away. Try it and let us know what happens. :)

[GeordieGenius]

Here's my list from the last game.

HQ CC – Straken, 3 plasma guns, Medic and 2 bodyguards all laspistol upgrade where applicable in Vendetta

CC – plain as youlike

Elite – 5 stormtroopers 2 meltas
– 9 psykers in chimera
– 10 ratlings

Troops – Vets with Harker and 3 plasma guns
– Vets with 3 melta in chimera ( I know it’s mean but their just so good against LR)
– Vets with demolitions, so all with melta bombs and 1 demo charge (suicide bomb) these dudes in a Vendetta

– Infantry – PC with Commissar and Platoon commander both with PP and PF
– 5 x 10 man squads with autocannon hw

Fast Attack – 2 x Vendettas

Heavy Support – 1 x LRBT with lascannon and hb sponsoons and camo

– 1 x LRBT with lascannon

There 2000 points or just under. Now deepstriking, well hit and miss, he’s tried it with very little success (there’s just very little space with all those little men about). Zerks, gotta get them across the board, Rhinos pop at the sniff of an auto cannon and then its blood for your own blood god, and landraiders are confronted head on and usually blown up. His deamon prince, is usually plasma goo before turn 3 at most, 3 times now he’s been dead by turn 1…….

So what can he do, what would you do. Would you beat this list with CSM, or is it just that IG are just so overpowered ( i mean put out a list and expect to win, not with the luck of the dice gods as on their day anyone can win)!!!

He played

DP with Lash

Abaddon with 4 terminator champions with duel power claw things and mark of khorne in a LR

Chosen 5 meltas in a Rhino infiltrate (got in turn 4)

4 Termies with Combi melta deep striking (got in turn 5)

3 x 10 men CSM with mark of khorne and melta in each in rhinos

3 bikes with stuff

defiler

vindicator

I think that was it.......

he made it 2500 and I added a manticore and a banewolf and an auto cannon hw team.

Dawn of War annihilation and by turn 3 DP dead (3 direct hits with manticore also took out 7 CSM with the same attack) all his mobility was shot to **** and he had to foot slog to me. So it was all over really.... from turn 4 it was clean up and he was trying to catch up in KP...I picked of what was left and the game was over!!

[fade_74]

Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. Every try killteam? 200 points worth of models, no squad coherency rules, small table. It's in the mission book. A TON of fun and really fast games. Also, as an IG player....you could dig up the old rules and use Col. Schaeffer and the Last Chancers. It's a single squad vs. the opposing players army. Each model has its own special rule and equipment...one guy could kill sentries...one could jack vehicles...etc. Really fun for some serious mission play. I think GW still sells the models too.

And if you just have to have 2 whole armies....how bout SM and Orks. If you got SM and he got orks...you would each have a horde style army and an "elite" army.

[BuFFo]

Your friend has everything, right? Have him take 9 Obliterators. Your list just became invalidated.

Your friends list is just terrible. Even from a fluff stand point, it is just so everywhere the only thing I could do is scrap it and start from the beginning. That is the kind of list I see at my local store from a new person to the store. I just roll my eyes because I know I will have to pull my punches while playing him to make the game fun for him.

Just because your friend can't beat you does not make IG an auto win against Chaos. neither does reading crap on the same 3 40k sites that spout none sense about army power rankings.

One of last year's 'Ard Boyz Champions? Chaos Space Marines. Ran over IG mech builds like they were his female dog. 'nuff said. Case closed. Move on.

Or... You guys can get into two new armies, and you'll be back here with the same old song and dance. If you are just a better player, you will always be a better player. The armies you guys play won't make a lick of difference.

You might be in the same position many veteran players find themselves in - make weaker lists or flub your plays so you can be equal with your opponent's skill level.

[Connjurus]

That is one piss-poor Chaos list, man...I'm with BuFFo here. That list needs to be scrapped and started over from the beginning.

I can't even offer any advice on that list, and I like to consider myself a pretty damn good Chaos Space Marine player...I mean, Mark of Khorne on regular Chaos Space Marines?

I mean, a bit of this sounds like it's up to some crappy reserve rolls, but even if he wants to run a more "for-fun" list than a super-competitive one, have him at least take an Obliterator or two.

3 bikes with "stuff"? No no no...did he even give them a Mark? What is this?

The Chosen and the Terminators are solid, if rather a throwaway unit. The Abaddon deathstar is powerful, but tears through a single IG squad way too easily.

What kind of Defiler? Was the vindicator possessed? 7 Chaos Space Marines dead from a single manticore attack? I can see 2 or 3...4 a the most...but 7? And a dead Daemon Prince? Does he just have really bad rolls or something?

I don't know. I'm depressed now.

[GeordieGenius]

@ Connjurus
He hates obliterators as he has a knack for rolling snake eyes, hence the dead Daemon Prince...I agree with the Abbadon squad, it was massivle over powered for the IG, he took out 3 10 men squads dut that was only 180 pts and I always got a fierce amount of shooting on the next turn as he always wiped them out. It was 3 direct hits from the manticore, so he had to take 3 saves on the daemon prince and 21 saves on the CSM hence the amount dead CSM.

What list would you have played, he's getting really down hearted and if I just let him win he's gonna think I'm being an azz.

The daemon prince already had 2 wounds by the way!!

[GeordieGenius]

@ Buffo
Yeah he could take 9 olbits but 1. he hates them (always rolls double 1's), 2. variety is the spice of life!!!! and 3. does it really invlaidtae the list, yes the Vendettas would probably go down, but there is still alot of bang in the rest of the army. So what would you play, the list I put out was supposed to balanced and not to overpowering yet it smashed him.

What would your friend play in a 2000 pt game against that list I'm guessing DP and Oblit spam, but if that'sthe case then we are talking boring azz tourney lists which are no fun!!!

Arggghhhgghhhhhhhhhh well I think I'm gonna play as CSM and see if I woop him again, then it's just his fault!!!

[GeordieGenius]

T
3 bikes with "stuff"? No no no...did he even give them a Mark? What is this?

err stuff means I can't remeber, I think the had meltas and mark of khorne but I plasmad them turn 2 so they died.

The Chosen and the Terminators are solid, if rather a throwaway unit. The Abaddon deathstar is powerful, but tears through a single IG squad way too easily.

I got to make him reroll his reserve board edge and they got stuck into a single 60 pt squad with nothing to shoot at turn 4 and on turn 5 I returned with a heap of fire from two other squads and killed them.

What kind of Defiler? Was the vindicator possessed?

Standard defiler as it comes plain as youlike.....in other words I have no idea!!!

all his vehicals were possessed....

I don't know. I'm depressed now.

Help, what would you have played!!!!!

[Bean]

Help, what would you have played!!!!!

At 2000 points, presuming no Obliterators?
Tell him to try:

155: Daemon Prince, Warp Time
155: Daemon Prince, Warp Time
120: 3x Terminators, 3x Combi-Meltas, Chain Fist
120: 3x Terminators, 3x Combi-Meltas, Chain Fist
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
220: Land Raider
220: Land Raider

Your friends list is bad because it focuses on close combat way too much--which doesn't really matter against your guard. More guys with more fire support is the way to go. Really, that fire support should be Obliterators, but if you're not going to use those, I like Land Raiders because they're quite resilient to most of the Guard's long range firepower, and they can transport guys in a pinch. I went ahead and used two Daemon Princes, since they're very strong anti-tank in combat, and relatively cheap. Finally, a pair of small, optimized terminator squads--these can ride in the Land Raiders or Deep Strike off the Icons--either way, they deliver their round of Melta shots fairly reliably, and then can screw around and charge stuff--tanks, thanks to the chain-fist, or guys (since guard are basically pushovers in combat, and even a couple of terminators will beat whole squads).

Honestly, your guard list is also pretty lousy. I've been playing Chaos Space Marines for a while, but I recently helped a friend of mine build a good mech guard list (he'd played 4th ed guard and mech marines, previously, and had never really been able to beat me). With his new guard, he beats my Chaos pretty routinely, but it's usually close.

Good chaos is not terribly well matched against good guard, but it can produce good games. Terrible Chaos, like your friend's, would be crushed by good guard and, frankly, your guard would not be well matched against good chaos. Help him construct an effective chaos army, first, take a few losses, then work on making your guard army good later.

[GeordieGenius]

Good chaos is not terribly well matched against good guard, but it can produce good games. Terrible Chaos, like your friend's, would be crushed by good guard and, frankly, your guard would not be well matched against good chaos. Help him construct an effective chaos army, first, take a few losses, then work on making your guard army good later.

Dude, The whole point of my list was to not be over the top. I wanted to make it so I would engage combat and not overpower him by turn 2. The list I'm playing next week has no tanks at all, I'm trying too fluff it up, and add a bit of story too it, but it makes no difference, usually by turn 3 it's all over... That's the frustration, like you said the guard just seem to be 'not terribly well matched' so are they a chaos achilles heel?

Hence the whole I want fun, and now it's no fun to either of us as the IG just seem to be so overpowered in those first 2 turn.

And what am I meant to do, not try and kill him???

As a chaos player, who would you say is the most evenly matched with chaos.

[doom-kitten]

Has he tried the Mark of Nurgle yet, man that really puts things into perspective that mark Xd, T 5 marines with FNP, on of my buds runs Death Guard I've beaten him but it's damn hard and always a fun game :D

[Bean]

Dude, The whole point of my list was to not be over the top. I wanted to make it so I would engage combat and not overpower him by turn 2. The list I'm playing next week has no tanks at all, I'm trying too fluff it up, and add a bit of story too it, but it makes no difference, usually by turn 3 it's all over... That's the frustration, like you said the guard just seem to be 'not terribly well matched' so are they a chaos achilles heel?

Hence the whole I want fun, and now it's no fun to either of us as the IG just seem to be so overpowered in those first 2 turn.

And what am I meant to do, not try and kill him???

As a chaos player, who would you say is the most evenly matched with chaos.


You are supposed to try to kill him, and I would definitely not make your guard army better until he's made his chaos army better--I was just pointing out that your guard army isn't actually all that good, and that if he starts playing a good chaos army, your situation could easily swing the other way, with you being heavily outmatched by him--also not a good situation.


Chaos aren't particularly well-matched with guard because their long ranged anti-tank options are limited, and a lot of their good stuff and upgrades are geared towards being stronger in close combat--something you don't really need against guard. Chaos Marines beat the snot out of guard in combat--and kill guard tanks pretty easiliy with krak grenades--but so do regular space marines, and regular space marines have more and better long ranged anti-tank options.

Chaos can certainly compete against guard, but the things that make the Chaos codex stand out against so many other codices (the marine codex in particular) aren't really of much value against guard. Chaos are particularly well matched against normal marines (where each has slightly advantages over the other) or Space Wolves (where the differences are even more slight).

[Connjurus]

At 2000 points, presuming no Obliterators?
Tell him to try:

155: Daemon Prince, Warp Time
155: Daemon Prince, Warp Time
120: 3x Terminators, 3x Combi-Meltas, Chain Fist
120: 3x Terminators, 3x Combi-Meltas, Chain Fist
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
255: 10 man CSM squad with double meltas, powefist champion, and Icon of Glory with Rhino
220: Land Raider
220: Land Raider



This is a good list. I like this list. I endorse this list.

I would, however, maybe drop a Terminator Squad to make the points to take Plaguemarines instead of regular Chaos Marines. Plaguemarines are just...they're just mean against Guard.

Edit: Now that I think of it, I'd drop the Land Raiders, too. Land Raiders aren't all that good, really, compared to other things. So, if he doesn't like Obliterators, tell him to take some havocs. One Lascannon Squad or Missile Launcher Squad, and one Autocannon Squad. Autocannons tear Chimera-chassis tanks to pieces. You don't even have to give'em a mark, really. Park'em in cover on turn 1, and you should be good.

[doom-kitten]

This is a good list. I like this list. I endorse this list.

I would, however, maybe drop a Terminator Squad to make the points to take Plaguemarines instead of regular Chaos Marines. Plaguemarines are just...they're just mean against Guard.

Their just mean against anyone XD

[Connjurus]

Their just mean against anyone XD

Eh. ;)

A thought occurs for this list, in regards to my last post - drop one of the Daemon Princes...they're close-combat. What's the point? Bring another Autocannon or Missile Launcher Havoc Squad.

[Bean]

This is a good list. I like this list. I endorse this list.

I would, however, maybe drop a Terminator Squad to make the points to take Plaguemarines instead of regular Chaos Marines. Plaguemarines are just...they're just mean against Guard.

Yeah, Plague Marines are pretty awesome--I just can't stand them, aesthetically, so my list writing habits tend to exclude them. Each is 8 points more expensive than a regular marine, which means you can cut three and the Icon from each squad, upgrade the remaining seven to plague marines, and come out only one point more expensive per squad. Do that to all four, and you can drop one chain fist for a regular power fist to make up the difference.

You'd have to cut 320 points to upgrade all forty guys to plague marines, though, which is quite a lot. A termie squad and a Raider--and I'm not sure that's quite worth it. Also worth noting is that Plague Marines are no better protected against battlecannons (and demolisher cannons and manticore rockets and some of the other heavy anti-infantry stuff in the guard codex) than regular marines. Now, the straight up battlecannon doesn't have much of a place in current competitive guard lists, but this guy does play two of them--so Plague Marines might not be quite the right way to go.

[Connjurus]

I see your point - or at least not straight Plaguemarines. But it'll still offer more protection against just about everything else in the army.

I still say this is one versus list that definitely has a home for some Autocannon/Missile Launcher/MAYBE Lascannon Havocs. More so than a Raider.

Edit: Also, don't like Plaguemarines? Convert your own! Mine are more skeletons in power armor than anything else.

[Bean]

Eh. ;)

A thought occurs for this list, in regards to my last post - drop one of the Daemon Princes...they're close-combat. What's the point? Bring another Autocannon or Missile Launcher Havoc Squad.

Close combat, yes--but fast, fairly resilient, and exceptionally strong against tanks, which is something you want. It charges up there with the rest of your guys. It might die, but if it does it soaks up a bunch of shots. If it doesn't, it ruins tank after tank until they do kill it.

155 points buys you five havocs with four autocannons. That's pretty good--over the course of a six turn game, you'll blow up about three Chimaeras (and do a little bit of non-lethal damage in addition.) Certainly, it's not unreasonable. I'm not sure it's way better, though.

Also, yeah--I definitely thought about havocs instead of Raiders. I just like Raiders a lot. And, if appropriate, you can load a squad in them and use it to roll them up in the first couple of turns rather than shooting, which gives them a little extra utility.

Certainly, you could drop a little bit of stuff and throw in twelve missile launchers or autocannons, and that would be a reasonable army, too.

[Connjurus]

Close combat, yes--but fast, fairly resilient, and exceptionally strong against tanks, which is something you want. It charges up there with the rest of your guys. It might die, but if it does it soaks up a bunch of shots. If it doesn't, it ruins tank after tank until they do kill it.

155 points buys you five havocs with four autocannons. That's pretty good--over the course of a six turn game, you'll blow up about three Chimaeras (and do a little bit of non-lethal damage in addition.) Certainly, it's not unreasonable. I'm not sure it's way better, though.

Oh yeah, they're fast, but apparently the person has had a bit of bad luck with them. So I think maybe a bare minimum HQ choice might be the way to go here.

And one Havoc squad with Autocannons is a little meh. But three? Or two with Autocannons and one with Missile Launcher/Lascannons?

That's a lot of dead tanks.

[HsojVvad]

Again, switch armies. Instead of us telling you what he should pick for his Choas army, why don't you play Chaos, He plays IG, and then you can tell him what he should do with the Chaos army.

This way you will see how to handle against IG because you know how IG work. After a few games, and you can tell him better how to use the Choas codex better agaisnt you with IG then.

Again, switch armies. :)

[GeordieGenius]

Again, switch armies. Instead of us telling you what he should pick for his Choas army, why don't you play Chaos, He plays IG, and then you can tell him what he should do with the Chaos army.

This way you will see how to handle against IG because you know how IG work. After a few games, and you can tell him better how to use the Choas codex better agaisnt you with IG then.

Again, switch armies. :)

Definatley gonna do this, gret idea. But if I beat him he'll never forgive me.....:rolleyes:

[GeordieGenius]

Ok as we appear to be the only 2 gamers on the island, we've decided to no only swap armies, we are also going to buy 2000 pts each of Tyranids and Orks.

He's gonna buy the black reach set so I'm gonna take his Sm and buy a battle force. Think that'll be about a 1000pt of SM. So oh wise gamers, what should I buy wit my free 1000 pts of Space marines?

Black reach and the battleforce gives me, 25 tac marines, 5 assault marines, 5 termies, 5 scouts, a dred and a rhino oh and a Sm captain dude.... So 1000 points what do you think is a must?

[Connjurus]

Must be nice to have so much disposable income... :P

As far as 1,000 points of Space Marines, with what you have, TH/SS Terminators, Sternguard Veterans, Vindicators, and Autocannon/Lascannon predators are all solid choices.

[BuFFo]

Must be nice to have so much disposable income... :P

Yeah, it's called a job. Get one you hippy. :mad:

[Connjurus]

Oh, I have a job! I just can't go out and blow money on three armies at time.

[GeordieGenius]

Dude, I live in Thailand and my cost of living is very low, hence the disposable income...I don't drink or smoke gaming and mma are my only bad habbits, and yes it will be a hefty lump but hey who needs to eat!!!