Can I Even AFFORD this hobby anymore?

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

The new Grey Knight releases are looking brilliant. I want some. But can I remotely afford them? Unlikely. Let's see - £20.50 for five Grey Knights. I'm thinking I'll need at least 20, so that's £82. Terminators? Probably squad of Paladins and standard ones, so that's £55. Total so far? £137.
Then Dreadknights? Well, two of those at £33 is £66. We're at £203. Character models? Well I have a perfectly good Stern, but then there's a £13.80 Lord Kaldor Draigo. £216.80...

Ok, so I know there will be budget versions of this army - hell, I've already got some of the old minis, but why are these models so very very expensive? I just think ok, you gotta make a decent profit on your investment GW, but if you maybe made them a little cheaper (especially the character models, they really take the biscuit), then you'd sell even more?
I just can't afford any new minis - it'll be Xmas before I start a new army of Grey Knights.

[Grailkeeper]

I can't afford it either- so I'm mostly internet based these days. I do play necromunda as all you need is the equivalent of a squad

[Gir]

Don't complain. The army you showed is $575 Australian, which is the equivilant of 356 pounds.

[Lemt]

The new Grey Knight releases are looking brilliant. I want some. But can I remotely afford them? Unlikely. Let's see - £20.50 for five Grey Knights. I'm thinking I'll need at least 20, so that's £82. Terminators? Probably squad of Paladins and standard ones, so that's £55. Total so far? £137.
Then Dreadknights? Well, two of those at £33 is £66. We're at £203. Character models? Well I have a perfectly good Stern, but then there's a £13.80 Lord Kaldor Draigo. £216.80...

Ok, so I know there will be budget versions of this army - hell, I've already got some of the old minis, but why are these models so very very expensive? I just think ok, you gotta make a decent profit on your investment GW, but if you maybe made them a little cheaper (especially the character models, they really take the biscuit), then you'd sell even more?
I just can't afford any new minis - it'll be Xmas before I start a new army of Grey Knights.

Buy at Waylands, Maelstrom, or any other online shop with high discounts over the normal price. It's what I do.

[RedWidow]

Start playing at smaller points level...the idea that you have to go buy 2000+ points the day you start the army is (however common) not truth. Most will argue that the game is not fun at 500 points (I disagree) but 750 points is actually a fun and relatively quick game.

I am excited to star them. I just want to build and paint a dreadknight!

[Sinnis]

Sell one of your kidneys maybe ?

You say that you already have some "old" models but you seem to want to buy all the new ones. Why ?
A nice thing about old models is that most never get obsolet. A base size is sometime needed but that's all most of the time. Ok, maybe a weapon swap or two sometimes.
Stop being an "I want them all right now" and learn to compose with your available budget...
See the difference between building (slowly, one piece at a time, with thinking put in each buy) and buying an army in one go to be part of the bandwagon of the trend of the day.

[Whoop!]

I too look at an army as a slow build. If you buy, build, and finish paint each unit before buying the next it is not too expensive. Sometimes we can not have all we want right now. You can always proxy other units until you have all of the army you want.

On the otherhand it is free to play, and fills so many hours with enjoyment that I think it is a worth while investment. $500 for a years modeling and painting and many years of kicking my friends teeth in? Priceless!

[RebelGrot]

Ah, the joys of falling foul of the new shiny models (literally in the metallic GK case).

I've finally managed to get a bit of control over the urge to buy everything at once and have a vague monthly 'limit'. There's some good advantages:
*You can afford it without having to sacrifice food/rent/beer
*You can play through some smaller games, as mentioned above, and learn what units work well and what you need to add. That way no wasted ££ when you realise you've got to much PAGK or something that you don't end up liking (no harm in some proxy testing)
*You are much more likely to manage to have a painted army - you don't get painting burn out.

If the points costs seen so far are correct then you might not even need to go all out that much. I have 10 old PAGK's and an Inquistor and Retinue - I'll be using that as a base and working up the other stuff over this year. Release day I'm getting the regular Grey Knight box and they're becoming a Librarian and Honour Guard for my regular army, hopefully that'll sate my cravings for the time being too.

Failing all of the above, go get a second job, sell anything which isn't essential in life and get saving!

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

I would start small also. Buy and paint a sqaud at a time. that way you dont have hundreds of minis to paint and get bored from the painting for hours and dayd on end. I inherited about 5k orc army and have yet to paint a single modle and just the thought of painting all those models makes me wanna punch my own face

[mathhammer]

more like the joy of being in a country with a weak currency.

welcome to the next 25 years

[Brass Scorpion]

It's not just the Grey Knights. Orc Warriors just went up about 57% in US pricing as of last weekend. The old box of 19 Orcs for $35 was quietly replaced with a box of 10 models for $29 to match the new Savage Orcs which also are 10 for $29. GW may finally be pricing themselves out of the market. I've been expecting this for about 15 years, but every time I thought it would happen before it did not, customers stayed with it. But I'm starting to see signs that they have hit that point the past few years as there are some sets that just do not sell because of their price points. And the number grows each time they push the frontiers of what customers will pay. And with the economy of the past few years those of us in the disappearing middle class are getting a lot more careful with how much of this stuff gets purchased in a year and which items. Those items that seem too far out in their pricing to the majority of customers (e.g., Great Swords, Nazgul On Fell Beast) just languish on the shelves and in the warehouse at GW HQ. They are beautiful models, but simply too expensive in the eyes of most customers.

[Old_Paladin]

I'm just angry that the company seems totally ignorant of current currancy trends.
The Canadian Dollar is 4% stronger then the 'greenback' but I pay a 17% mark UP here, compared to the US.

How does that even work?
The british pound is about equal to 160% of the Canadian Dollar, meaning I still pay a 25% mark up from the Brit's. It looks like the world is milking Canada's strong, stable economy; while complaining about 'how expensive' everything is.
Except the Aussie's, they get the shaft worse then me. But at least they can say it's all shipping cost; shipping cost comparing New York and Toronto or Ottawa cannot be an extra 15%.

[Brass Scorpion]

It looks like the world is milking Canada's strong, stable economy; True, but look at the bright side, you get to live in Canada! Canada, home of SCTV, Kids In The Hall, The Guess Who and free health care. So if your GW stuff is more overpriced there than most places, it's a small price to pay.

Kids in the Hall -monologue America-KITH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUOJbF_wzrM

[MaltonNecromancer]

GW may finally be pricing themselves out of the market. I've been expecting this for about 15 years, but every time I thought it would happen before it did not, customers stayed with it.

My friends and I have been having this conversation since 1990. I now genuinely believe that GW will never price themselves out of the market. Unless they saw a sudden and significant drop as the result of, say, an internet campaign or some other thing, they'll just keep putting their prices up. Even then, they'd probably just put the prices up.

Seriously, I cannot remember them ever cutting their prices, and the closest thing we had to a sale was the release of the Apocalypse boxed sets that required a massive outlay of cash and only lasted all of three months. I thought they were permanent at the time. I wish I'd known; I'd have bought more :( But otherwise, GW prices have never seen a cut in the twenty-two odd years I've been playing. Never.

[Brass Scorpion]

I cannot remember them ever cutting their prices Sorry, the bunk-o-meter just went off. Every time I see the statement that GW has never dropped prices it goes off. There have been many instances where prices dropped. When the first plastic Regiment/Squad boxes appeared in the 1990's they were significantly cheaper than the existing models at the time. Core sets were about $80 till Macragge, Macragge was only $45 when first released, Chaos Knights went from $55 to $22 when Warriors of Chaos was first released, army books years ago were $25, then got rolled back well below that, then crept back up over recent years, paint brushes are now cheaper than they were a few years ago, the Warhammer Fortress when first released about 15 years ago was $110, then dropped to $80 a few years later, when the current Tau Battleforce was released all Battalion and Battleforce sets at the time were reduced to $90, and on and on. GW has gotten very expensive lately, but there have been many times prices were lowered. Criticize GW when it's deserved, but let's not fabricate false evidence to support it.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to play and get a new army. I agree that it can be daunting painting a huge amount of miniatures, especially when you work and have a wife and kids to entertain - which is why I was looking forward to the Grey Knights, as you're likely to need less miniatures. However, massed lasgun fire is no way to die, my friends...and I should know...

I don't really like little. small points games. When I go to my gaming club, I like to wield armies with at least a couple of HQ choices, and have a game that lasts the evening. I've tried playing little games and they're never as much fun for me. So I like to have a full army of 2000 points or over and learn via baptism of fire how best to use them. That's how I did it with my daemons and had a lot of fun (and made a lot of friends by losing!) and now people find it hard to beat them.

GW really do need to look at what they are doing with regards pricing and value for money - they have NEVER had a sale in the UK and don't do much in the way of bundles.

[Brass Scorpion]

GW really do need to look at what they are doing with regards pricing and value for money - they have NEVER had a sale in the UK and don't do much in the way of bundles.GW no longer has sales in the UK, US or anywhere else from what I can tell, but it's not true they've never had a sale there. They used to have awesome sales there and in the US up till 2003. They were having a massive week-long chain-wide sale there in the UK during my one visit there in 1995. I bought a pile of stuff thanks to that. GW stopped having sales after 2003 and went to a NO sales policy since then, with minor exceptions here and there like the occasional Grand Opening coupons in White Dwarf for a specific store.

I agree with you on the need to look at what they are doing. I had that chat with a friend the other night, one that used to work for GW from about 1993 to 2004. They keep making the rules trend toward encouraging players to play larger games with more models, but the price increases on core tropps are getting astronomical now each time an army is revised. The increase last week on basic Orc Warriors is just one example of that trend. Core troops needed in quantity should be the most affordable thing for building a large army. Years ago they actually started producing those basic troop plastic sets with affordable pricing in mind, but it seems that philosophy is completely out the window these days.

[fuzzbuket]

and thats why i hope a dragiowing will only need 10 models!

oh and with the amount of spare parts you could almost buy 5GK's and then use spare parts to convert blackreach/regular marines!

[DarkLink]

Anyone ever heard of inflation?

Before this thread goes downhill, read through this Friday Internet Fight Night (http://bloodofkittens.com/dickmove/2011/01/07/friday-night-internet-fight-round-45/). This is what happens when people start talking about GW's finances. It's not pretty.


The new Grey Knight releases are looking brilliant. I want some. But can I remotely afford them? Unlikely. Let's see - £20.50 for five Grey Knights. I'm thinking I'll need at least 20, so that's £82. Terminators? Probably squad of Paladins and standard ones, so that's £55. Total so far? £137.
Then Dreadknights? Well, two of those at £33 is £66. We're at £203. Character models? Well I have a perfectly good Stern, but then there's a £13.80 Lord Kaldor Draigo. £216.80...


How is any of this any different in any way whatsoever from any other army in 40k?

[rbgm01]

Just imagine i live in Mexico were you pay 12 pesos per dolar believe me its hard but not imposibble

[DarkLink]

Yeah, exchange rates can suck sometimes.


Incidentally, here's an exerpt from that FIFN:



GW prices rising by 5-6% per year? Surely you didn’t just make that up did you? ~oh snap, the gauntlet has been thrown

To take one example. The Grey Hunters pack was first released 18 years ago and at the time cost £12.99. The modern equivalent is the Space Wolves Pack boxed set which costs £23. If you work it out that would represent a year on year price rise of 3.2% ~and tada we have the US rate of inflation. Hold on let me look something up…… and well I can’t find the data, but it looks like UK inflation since 1750 has floated mostly from 2-3 percent, so we’ve got about the same rate. Add in increasing materials costs and it looks like GW is actually giving us a discount. Woohoo! for the last 18 years.

Don’t just make up numbers off the top of your head and spew them out as misguided fact. ~words to live by

[Brass Scorpion]

Just for the record, the increase on Orc Warriors last week was 57%. They went from 19 models for $35 to 10 models for $29 US.

[scadugenga]

They did the same thing to the IG Cadian box.


Used to be $35.00 for 20.

Now it's $24.75 for 10.

Now the nice thing about the new GK PA and Term boxes is they give you all the bits. Something they used to never do.

However, on the downside, you have GW continuing to price their product based on the value added to the game, and not the cost required to produce.

Which is still, and perhaps will forever be, one of GW's big failing points.

[BDub]

Start playing at smaller points level...the idea that you have to go buy 2000+ points the day you start the army is (however common) not truth. Most will argue that the game is not fun at 500 points (I disagree) but 750 points is actually a fun and relatively quick game.

I am excited to star them. I just want to build and paint a dreadknight!

I can totally agree with that. I love 750-1200pt games. Sometimes on a 4x4 table. It also seems less daunting to paint up models in 500-700 point chunks. Just pace yourself and use counts as to play till you get geared up. I also fund newer purchases by selling off old under-used models and bitz.

[Necron2.0]

The way I afford this game is I have a points based credit card with the crazy-barbarian-woman web store. I cycle all my monthly bills through it, and pay the balance off immediately (that is key - miss a payment once and you've hosed yourself for that month). Every couple of months I use my points to get a $25 gift coupon. Eventually I have enough to purchase whatever gaming supplies I want. Granted, it is a slow process, but it's the one and only way I could justify paying the grossly bloated prices GW demands (and trust me, as someone who's collected miniatures for almost 30 years, they ARE grossly bloated prices).

[Deathula]

... but it's the one and only way I could justify paying the grossly bloated prices GW demands (and trust me, as someone who's collected miniatures for almost 30 years, they ARE grossly bloated prices).




Very true, I just used to collect models to paint alone (still not that good) but when I can buy a decent looking white metal model for $5, and the GW equivelent(sp, sorry not fire fox at work :( ) is $15+ U.S. ... Just not right.

[The Madman]

I'll be collecting three dreadknights and will corrupting them to chaos for my 57th Host as count-as Defilers. Will be combining the torso with a defiler one as the terminator looks stupid just dangling there. that will cost me £99

[fuzzbuket]

I'll be collecting three dreadknights and will corrupting them to chaos for my 54th Host as count-as Defilers. Will be combining the torso with a defiler one as the terminator looks stupid just dangling there. that will cost me £99


your username is fitting :P 3 dredknights (£99)+3 defilers (105) an eldar titan is cheaper than that ! :P

[The Madman]

your username is fitting :P 3 dredknights (£99)+3 defilers (105) an eldar titan is cheaper than that ! :P

ah, but i got the defilers cheap from other players, two for £15 each and another for £12 so just over the price of a single new one.

also being a dedicated servent of the Ruinous powers does loosen the chains of sanity quite a bit. :D

[Whoop!]

And if GW was to lower their prices, and go out of buisness, we would all lose. They have been around for decades, and their business model seems to work. Why the hate? How many armies do you need? Too expensive, play hordes or warmaachine, and see how their prices are IF they around in ten years. a good business makes money, if it doesn't it closes, and we will have to go back to playing with little green army men. Uncool!

[HsojVvad]

Well it's really hard for me now for GW. Closest GW store closed down, no job still, really hard to stay in the hobby now.

[Necron2.0]

It's a specious argument, stating that GW would go out of business if they charged reasonable prices for their products. There are numerous miniature manufacturers whose longevity is similar to GW (aka Citadel Miniatures), and whose quality has (until recently) always been higher, but that charge half the price per miniature than GW. Most of these don't have the excuse of a dedicated game as incentive to buy their miniatures either. On the flip side, there are several companies who've tried to follow the GW business model and have ended up out of business with their office furniture auctioned to the highest bidder (Rackham most recently).

As for what I should or should not be allowed to play, bear in mind that GW needs the players, not the other way around. The game does not require Citadel Miniatures in order to be played. Heck, the original Rogue Trader had paper chits in the back for playing Orks vs. Marines. Additionally, the game does not need the most recent codex in order to be played either. I know of folks whose entire armies are printed on card stock, or are hand made, or are composed entirely of miniatures from other manufactures. There are people out there who play primarily from fan codices. No, GW's bloated prices do not benefit the gaming community. They only benefit GW.

[Necron2.0]

But to go back to the original topic, especially in light of the recent news concerning an upcoming 6th edition - the best advice I could offer for making this game more affordable is for everyone to get their gaming groups together, pool their monies, and then buy ONE of the essentials (codices, core rules, etc.) to be shared within the group. Reuse your existing armies as much as possible. If your group isn't likely to play more than one type of army at a time, and it's something you cannot represent with existing armies, then as a group buy that one model/unit/army. If it's something you're really not going to use very often (especially codices) and there are multiple gaming groups in your vicinity that you frequent with, then two or more gaming groups could collaborate to buy a single communal set. If you really and truly want to limit the financial footprint this game has on your future, then going socialist is the only way.

[Whoop!]

It is the fluff and background that makes GW products unique. I'm not saying they don't charge more than I wish they would, but it's not like they are big oil holding entire economies hostage. We could play with what we already have, and it costs nothing. But I know you, Necron 2.0, are waiting for a new necron codex as much as I am. GW offers an AWESOME product, and charges what the market will bear. That is all that I am saying, that and all of our lives would suck just a little more if GW was to close. I just don't understand the anger coming out of people who are obviously big fans of the product.

[gcsmith]

The hobby is only expensive because of demand, other companies charge less than GW because they have to, if they charged the same why bother when u can buy citadel.

If Demand fell prices would.

Although if you wish to get prices lower we could all just buy shares IN gw and pull them together and have BOLS become the main shareholder :p

Then we could dictate prices :p

[Necron2.0]

I just don't understand the anger coming out of people who are obviously big fans of the product.

Oh, well that's easy to answer. As much as people love anything, they always love to complain about it more. :) Seriously though, it's like with Star Wars. I read an article that presented a rather profound revelation. Nobody really even likes Star Wars. Most of those who call themselves fans actually hate it, but they love the idea behind Star Wars and they love to argue about how poorly executed that idea was.

As for supply and demand, yes there is that, and GW has hit upon something people are willing to shell out their hard-earned cash for time and time again. At the end of the day, they're a business in the business of making profits. I get that, as do most of us I'm sure. Still, we all know they do things that aren't the most egalitarian - like the never ending splat cycle of revised editions, complete with updated codices. Sure, they're not the only ones that do it (I don't know of a single business that doesn't do it in some form or another), but they are one of the few who've codified it into a cold, cynically regimented, completely predictable company doctrine. When you buy the newest edition, you know at the outset that it has a shelf life of exactly four years. The next edition will have just enough changes to it to undermine the effectiveness of any army you've built under the current edition. Again, if I owned GW and I could get away with it, darn right I'd probably do the same thing. As a customer, however, I don't have to like it.

[HsojVvad]

"What the market will bear" So is Games Workshop selling Mercedes or Lamborginis then? So does that mean most of us who play GW or at least on the forums, with Middle class family or less, then really shouldn't be playing 40K then? Just like how a middle class family or lower do not buy Mercedes or Lamborginis, we are not GW market then.

I just find it funny how all these new GW stores are opening up in the middle of nowhere getting away from main malls and set up shop where Upper Class families usually do not go to. So why does GW set up shop where the middle class attend to, but we are not thier market then?

[Whoop!]

Middle class is the market.
Middle class families can afford one to two purchases a month @ $25-35. With this kind of consrvative buying you should have an army within 1 year.
Upper class families just buy master painted armies on ebay, play them once, then put them in the closet.
If you feel you need to buy the whole army over two months, and you are middle class, then your eyes are bigger than your budget.

On a side note I bought my 2500 pt space wolves army on ebay for $200, unpainted, unassembled. Shipping included. This is because I am personally too cheap to pay GW prices. If you can't afford new, then you do have other options. Buy a poorly painted army & strip it. I have a broke *** friend who proxies everything(It is awesome when he proxies a Land Raider with Lightning McQueen, from his kids toy box)

The problem I have is that a lot of you seem to look at this in such a short term view. I am just happy that GW is thriving and may be around putting this dope stuff out for a few more decades.