Trapped!!

[wkz]

Here's an interesting one, courtesy of SpaceCurve's latest class: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/spacecurves-tactics-class-assisted.html

Relevant rules from the Big Rule Book: Pg 45, Fall back. Especially the following:
Paragraph 4 "... Each model in the unit falls back directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route... if playing... no 'own' table edge, models fall back towards the closest table edge instead."

Trapped: "...The models in the falling back unit may move around these obstructions in such a way as to get back to their table edge by the shortest route, maintaining unit coherency.

If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see diagram below)"

(Note: I was about to say something completely opposite, but after some research I realized I was wrong)

Interesting... there are 2 points of note:
- The rules keep saying "Route", as in "shortest possible route", instead of a mandatory direction.
- The bolded point up there. Specifically "in any direction": indicating a straight line (direction usually means "point, and draw a line"). So, I do believe it means: "Draw a straight line in any direction. If it bounces back from any obstacle before reaching the full fall back distance, the unit is destroyed"

Think of a mouse in a maze. The shortest possible route out of a maze can be in ANY direction, and zig-zag crazily, but it is still a singular AND closest route to the destination.

But if the same mouse is trapped in a box too small for it to make its full movement, it'll slam into a wall no matter what direction you take. That would be our "Trapped!" condition I guess.

Curiously enough, it also means this: you CANNOT create a trapped situation if the enemy can use their models to make a gigantic box, simple because the fleeing models inside CAN make their full move (even if that full move is going nowhere fast)

...
Congrats Spacecurves... you've just caused me to revise my earlier position on the fallback rule. And knowing the correct rules is always a good thing to have...
(Of course, feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

[Paintraina]

Looks pretty good to me. Its nice to see that your opinion on rules can change after reading it again with fresh eyes. Unlike some people we may know.....

[Morgan Darkstar]

Looks pretty good to me. Its nice to see that your opinion on rules can change after reading it again with fresh eyes. Unlike some people we may know.....

I wonder who? :D

[BuFFo]

Nothing in the rule indicates a straight line. If the shortest route possible is a curved line , then that is the shortest route possible.

Moving through an object you cannot move through it not the shortest route possible. Nothing ins the rule suggests that you can magically move through impassible terrain or other units (normally).

I don't understand what your point is here, but Space Curve's article is flawless. You can most definitely fall back away from your table edge if that is your shortest route TO your table edge.

[Paintraina]

Buffo makes a good point. I always assumed that the shortest distance between two points (the unit and the table edge) would be a straight line, but in the case of obstacles you may have to make some turns.

[Xas]

I either dont understand your point or you are reading to much into it.

Another way to say what the trapped rule is is saying would be:
If a unit falls back look for the shortest route (as in straight, curved or even fractal if it is the shortest which it most likely wont be) to any point on the desired table edge.
If a route exists move your retreat distance along that route and be done.
If no such route exists look if you can move your retreat distance in any direction.
If you can, choose the final point that is nearest to your table edge and move along it. If not the unit is destroyed.

[JxKxR]

I either dont understand your point or you are reading to much into it.

Another way to say what the trapped rule is is saying would be:
If a unit falls back look for the shortest route (as in straight, curved or even fractal if it is the shortest which it most likely wont be) to any point on the desired table edge.
If a route exists move your retreat distance along that route and be done.
If no such route exists look if you can move your retreat distance in any direction.
If you can, choose the final point that is nearest to your table edge and move along it. If not the unit is destroyed.

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time trying to understand this one. I thought if you moved north any then the unit was destroyed but you all seem to think not. In the space curves I thought that his unit would be destroyed because they were caught in a bowl by his own units. The only way for his unit to get to the table edge would be to "double back" by going North East or North West. Does doubling back not mean what I think it does?

[addamsfamily36]

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time trying to understand this one. I thought if you moved north any then the unit was destroyed but you all seem to think not. In the space curves I thought that his unit would be destroyed because they were caught in a bowl by his own units. The only way for his unit to get to the table edge would be to "double back" by going North East or North West. Does doubling back not mean what I think it does?

Compass directions?

Do you play your games on an ordanance survey map?

[zenjah]

Does doubling back not mean what I think it does?

I believe that is indeed the source of confusion.

In my opinion doubling back only refers to when a model moves over the same spot twice in the same move. For example, if someone tried to move 3 inches forward and then 3 inches back and call that 6 inches of movement they would be guilty of doubling back.

The "cup" shaped obstacle will not lead to any doubling back because the fleeing units will not enter the cup. Entering the cup and then turning around would not be the "shortest distance."

[JxKxR]

I'm just trying to be clear.

[JxKxR]

I believe that is indeed the source of confusion.

In my opinion doubling back only refers to when a model moves over the same spot twice in the same move. For example, if someone tried to move 3 inches forward and then 3 inches back and call that 6 inches of movement they would be guilty of doubling back.

The "cup" shaped obstacle will not lead to any doubling back because the fleeing units will not enter the cup. Entering the cup and then turning around would not be the "shortest distance."

But they are in the cup in the last picture.

...I feel dense.

[Lemt]

IMHO "doubling back" means moving away from your board edge. "Let's escape towards enemy territory" is generally a bad idea.

But yeah, I'd say it's unclear either way.

[Tynskel]

I wonder who? :D

The pendulum swings both ways...

[BuFFo]

IMHO "doubling back" means moving away from your board edge. "Let's escape towards enemy territory" is generally a bad idea.

But yeah, I'd say it's unclear either way.

Doubling Back means to retrace a course you have previously traveled. That is all it means.

Trapped! rule means exactly what it says. If you can't move your full Fall Back distance in ANY direction without being impeded by something AND while trying to move the shortest distance possible, you die.

Basically, you can only ever be trapped if you are literally encircled and cannot get out. Fall Back corridors are a thing of 4th edition, and do not exist anymore. It is much harder to destroy a unit by using the Trapped! rule.

This was even answered in the 40k FAQ.

[thecactusman17]

Here's a more important question for this rule. Remember, fleeing models have to move at least 1" away from enemy units.

My unit assaults an enemy unit against a piece of impassible terrain. They bubble wrap around the unit, but leave a 1.5" gap at the very end, enough for a model to pass through. However, every model must move within 1" of the remaining models in my unit to get to it. I win combat and force a run.

Are the models allowed to pass through the gap at the end, even if they must move within 1" of the models that defeated them to get to it?

//around my LGS, this is typically not considered a 'trapped' scenario because the only enemy models in question are the same unit that assaulted in the first place. However, I cannot tell why this ruling is in place, as it seems to be the scenario described in the rulebook.

[Bean]

Cactusman, check page 45, under the heading "Falling Back From Close Combat." It says, "Models falling back from a combat will move through all enemy models that were involved in that combat (these enemies have already missed their chance to catch the falling back unit!) If any models would end their move less than 1" from one of these enemies, extend the fall back move until they are clear."

Deals with the situation you describe pretty straightforwardly, wouldn't you say? ;)

[wkz]

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time trying to understand this one. I thought if you moved north any then the unit was destroyed but you all seem to think not. In the space curves I thought that his unit would be destroyed because they were caught in a bowl by his own units. The only way for his unit to get to the table edge would be to "double back" by going North East or North West. Does doubling back not mean what I think it does?Actually, the point of contention here is that the rules specifically uses the word "Route", instead of "direction".

All the rules say is to take the shortest route. A Route to a destination can be wavy and contradictory from the direction of the destination "as the crow flies"... As long as you can draw a line connecting your unit with the table edge, it is good enough for the units to survive (and run).


But they are in the cup in the last picture.
...I feel dense.
Maybe I am explaining to the converted/enlightened... but:

1) A straight line out of the cup, then a direction change to the table edge.

2) A straight line downwards towards the table edge, hit the bottom of the cup, go backwards to the original position, then out of the cup and finally a last direction change to the table edge.

Is "1" "the shortest route" to the table edge? Is that a legal retreat?

People who says Spacecurves is correct basically are saying "yes" to the above two questions.



@Buffo: Actually, my initial post agrees with you... for the most part. See the "mouse in a maze" analogy in my initial post again.

The problem here is what condition will have to occur to have the "Trapped!" situation pop up (a pretty small boxed-up area, to be honest). Thus the discussion of "direction", "full-move" and "doubling back" meanings in my original post.

For example: The enemy is surrounding one of my fleeing troops of 2 models, but have "drawn" a large circle (probably he just can't move fast enough to squeeze that circle tightly).

IF my models CAN DRAW A (tight) SPIRAL to use up the fleeing move distance without tracing over any spot they had moved over... are they trapped, or are they not??



The pendulum swings both ways...
The problem here is that you refuse to say the pendulum is swinging your way and insists it has never swung your way, even if the Wrecking Ball has and had hit you several hundred times in the face.

[BuFFo]

Here's a more important question for this rule. Remember, fleeing models have to move at least 1" away from enemy units.

My unit assaults an enemy unit against a piece of impassible terrain. They bubble wrap around the unit, but leave a 1.5" gap at the very end, enough for a model to pass through. However, every model must move within 1" of the remaining models in my unit to get to it. I win combat and force a run.

Are the models allowed to pass through the gap at the end, even if they must move within 1" of the models that defeated them to get to it?

//around my LGS, this is typically not considered a 'trapped' scenario because the only enemy models in question are the same unit that assaulted in the first place. However, I cannot tell why this ruling is in place, as it seems to be the scenario described in the rulebook.

Destroyed. The Fleeing models cannot move their full distance because they cannot come within an 1" of an enemy model/unit. This is exactly what the rule calls Trapped!.


@Buffo: Actually, my initial post agrees with you... for the most part. See the "mouse in a maze" analogy in my initial post again.

Thank you for the clarification. I felt quite stupid not really understanding what point you were trying state. I appreciate it you dumbing it down for me :)

As for your example, the fleeing unit is destroyed. Going around in circles/spirals is another definition of Doubling Back. If you tried to pull anything like that against any player with half a brain, they would give you a stupid stare, the bubble gum in their mouth would burst, they would just knock your models off the table with a tire iron,and continue giving you a zombie stare of idiocy.

To put it better, there is NO shortest route/distance that can be drawn to your table edge for the unit in the first place. They are destroyed. Which is the very definition of Trapped!.

:)

[JxKxR]

Yeah I got it now. Thanks guys.

[Rapture]

This confusion made me review the rule section for Trapped!.

They could replace that whole explanation with: "This will never happen."

[JxKxR]

This confusion made me review the rule section for Trapped!.

They could replace that whole explanation with: "This will never happen."

HA! That's sort of what I thought once I got it.

[wkz]

Destroyed. The Fleeing models cannot move their full distance because they cannot come within an 1" of an enemy model/unit. This is exactly what the rule calls Trapped!.
Actually, I have the separate impression: thecactusman17 specifically said that the "too narrow" gap all enemy models have to flee through is specifically caused by the assaulting models.

And as Bean already said: page 45, under the heading "Falling Back From Close Combat." It says, "Models falling back from a combat will move through all enemy models that were involved in that combat (these enemies have already missed their chance to catch the falling back unit!) If any models would end their move less than 1" from one of these enemies, extend the fall back move until they are clear."




As for your example, the fleeing unit is destroyed. Going around in circles/spirals is another definition of Doubling Back. If you tried to pull anything like that against any player with half a brain, they would give you a stupid stare, the bubble gum in their mouth would burst, they would just knock your models off the table with a tire iron,and continue giving you a zombie stare of idiocy.

To put it better, there is NO shortest route/distance that can be drawn to your table edge for the unit in the first place. They are destroyed. Which is the very definition of Trapped!.

:)Here's another interesting question/scenario: What if the opponent draws a rectangle 3 feet long by 3 feet wide? Will the fleeing units instantly get trapped and destroyed, because technically "there is NO shortest route/distance that can be drawn to your table edge" ??

I do believe this is the reason why the last sentence is why it is written as so: "If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see diagram below)"

But that comes back to the earlier scenario: Can you do L shapes within the 3 feet long by 3 feet wide box? Can you do that same L shape if you had slammed right into one of the edges of that 3 feet box? What if it is a 8"x8" box instead, and you flee into the furthest edge and only needing to burn one more inch of movement, can you do an L shape then?

My interpretation of that last paragraph... well, you can see it in my original post. Direction = straight line. If you can draw that line, you can run.
...
...
Then we bring up the Space Hulk table featured a while back (not being able to easily draw long, straight lines in ANY direction) for extra **** and giggles...

[BuFFo]

Here's another interesting question/scenario: What if the opponent draws a rectangle 3 feet long by 3 feet wide? Will the fleeing units instantly get trapped and destroyed, because technically "there is NO shortest route/distance that can be drawn to your table edge" ??

Yes.


This confusion made me review the rule section for Trapped!.

They could replace that whole explanation with: "This will never happen."

Agreed. I have never seen it happen in 5th edition, and I have personally played over 150 games since its release, not to mention the games I have witnessed.

[Tynskel]

Unlike most of the videos I have seen on BoLS, my group usually play with terrain that saturates the board. Between impassable terrain and enemy units, it happens occasionally. Basically, the diagram that appears in the book.

[BuFFo]

Unlike most of the videos I have seen on BoLS, my group usually play with terrain that saturates the board. Between impassable terrain and enemy units, it happens occasionally. Basically, the diagram that appears in the book.

Ahh... At my store, we play with just about 90% Area Terrain. We rarely mess around with Impassible Terrain.