2 rules questions: AP and Str

[theirontower]

2 Questions from some newbs:

A.) How does Armor Save work against AP weapons, if the AP is the same as the armor save they don't get it, or they do? ie AP3 weapon against a standard Marine with 3+ save, do they get the save or not?
B.) How does the rules for Strength work in regards to denying armor saves, do they have to have more Str then the targets Armor save? ie If model A has Str4 and model B has armor save 3+ do they get the save?

Sorry, I know these are low lvl questions. A friend of mine and I are trying to figure the game out, sometimes its not easy.

Thank you for your time.

[Paintraina]

A. No armor save.
B. in WH40k Strength and Armor Save do not effect each other.

[theirontower]

What is the rule about Str and instant death? I know there is something in the rules about Str affecting wounds and whatnot.

[Lemt]

What is the rule about Str and instant death? I know there is something in the rules about Str affecting wounds and whatnot.

A weapon with strength twice or higher than the target's toughness will inflict instant death, regardless of the target's remaining wounds. So A S8 AP- weapon can inflict instant death on a SM Librarian (which has T4), but only if the librarian fails his save.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

A. if the Str of the attack(whether by gun or close combat) is double your toughness you dont get a armor save
B. If the AP of the gun is equal to or lower than your armor save you dont get a armor save

in either situation Invulnerable or Cover save can be taken unless the weapon negates cover ie flamer or ordanance

[BuFFo]

2 Questions from some newbs:

A.) How does Armor Save work against AP weapons, if the AP is the same as the armor save they don't get it, or they do? ie AP3 weapon against a standard Marine with 3+ save, do they get the save or not?
B.) How does the rules for Strength work in regards to denying armor saves, do they have to have more Str then the targets Armor save? ie If model A has Str4 and model B has armor save 3+ do they get the save?

Sorry, I know these are low lvl questions. A friend of mine and I are trying to figure the game out, sometimes its not easy.

Thank you for your time.

Some people in here have actually given you the wrong information...

A) Your assertion is 100% correct. You are playing that right.

B) Strength has NOTHING to do with Armor Save. The only aspect of a shooting weapon that ignores armor saves is it's AP value. In close combat, weapons either Ignore Saves (power weapons/Monstrous Creatures/and a few rare others) or allow saves (just about everything else). There is rarely middle ground here. Weapons will tell you if they are power weapons or not.

If a Marine with a 3+ save (toughness 4 of course) gets hit with a Strength 10 weapon with an AP of 4,5,6 or -, the marine will still get his 3+ save.

If a Marine with a 3+ save (toughness 4 of course) gets hit with a Strength 2 weapon with an AP of 3,2, or 1, the marine will not get his armor save.

[DarkLink]

And if a Marine gets hit with a Str 8 Ap 4 shot, he still gets his 3+ armor.

[Sam]

A. if the Str of the attack(whether by gun or close combat) is double your toughness you dont get a armor save
B. If the AP of the gun is equal to or lower than your armor save you dont get a armor save

in either situation Invulnerable or Cover save can be taken unless the weapon negates cover ie flamer or ordanance

Whoa, whoa, whoa. First off, Instant Death does not equal ignoring armor saves. If the strength of the attack is double the models toughness value or higher, then the model is removed regardless of its remaining wounds if and only if it also fails any save it is allowed. This includes its armor save so long as the AP of the weapon allows said save.

Second, ordinance does NOT cause a weapon to ignore cover. Even ordinance barrage doesn't flat out ignore cover, it just changes where cover is checked from. There are two reasons a shooting attack will ignore cover: 1. It uses the flame template, or 2. It explicitly states that it ignores cover.

[steelmage99]

Second, ordinance does NOT cause a weapon to ignore cover. Even ordinance barrage doesn't flat out ignore cover, it just changes where cover is checked from. There are two reasons a shooting attack will ignore cover: 1. It uses the flame template, or 2. It explicitly states that it ignores cover.

And Ordnance doesn't either. ;)

[dannyat2460]

These simple questions is why most people read the rule book

[SotonShades]

And Ordnance doesn't either. ;)

I'm a little unsure as to where you are getting this information. Ordnance weapons are mentioned on pages 29, 58 and 60 of the rulebook, and it never mentions ignoring cover. I can only concieve that you are confusing the fact they usually use a large blast template (which should be referred to as a marker more accurately) with the template characteristic, which applies to weapons that use the teardrop template.

[phoenix01]

These simple questions is why most people read the rule book


"There's an old Earth saying: 'A hundred travel guides aren't worth one real trip.'"

There's a lot of rules to WH40K. To a new player, it can be seriously overwhelming. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions about something you don't understand.The best way to learn the game is to play the game and ask the questions about the things that you don't understand.

[Porty1119]

These simple questions is why most people read the rule book

The densely, poorly-written rulebook? I'd rather ask for help from a few thousand players of the game than try to comprehend a potentially-confusing concept.

To the OP, did you play Fantasy or a similar game with save modifiers before starting 40k? It sounds as if that's what you're talking about. I personally find the concept to add a slight degree of complexity, but also represent the fact that armor protection is not a binary, on/off affair. Different weapons penetrate armor to different degrees, it is not simply a factor in protection or of no consequence. I use save modifiers in Animal Wars, and it works great because something like a Terminator-armored Leopard Gecko still gets chewed up pretty nicely by an Apache attack helicopter flown by mice, even though only one of its weapons would punch through their armor in a game of 40k.

[Culven]

I'm a little unsure as to where you are getting this information.
Steelmage99 wasn't claiming what you seem to think he was. He was alluding to the use of "Ordinance" (i.e. a statute or law) instead of "Ordnance" (notice the lack of an "i", which refers to weapons). However, pointing out the incorrect inference many make because they mistakenly believe that the Blast Markers count as Templates (typically due to common usage, but not correct by the rules).

As to the original simple questions, it would be better to refer the original poster to the relevant page in the rulebook. This makes them more familiar with where the rules can be found as well as preventing simple rules fishing from those without a rulebook. In that vein:

AP: Refer to page 20, right-hand column, the two bullet pointed items.
Instant Death: Refer to page 26. Note the reference to "unsaved wounds". This means that Instant Death is only triggered after the model has suffered a wound from an appropriate weapon.

[steelmage99]

Yep. Like Culven said it was an (obviously failed) attempt at levity. :)

I am not confusing Blast Makers and Templates. :)

I agree with Sam (whom I quoted); Ordnance weapons does not, by virtue of being Ordnance, ignore cover saves.
Ordnance Barrage have, as we all know, some special rules regarding how to determine the presence or absence of a cover save, but OB does not ignore cover altogether.


The following is a copy-paste from a document made back in the beginning of 5th. when this was discussed extensively.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are three different Ordnance characteristics with attending drawbacks.

A. The ability to roll two dice when penetrating armour and picking the highest, with the drawback of being disallowed to fire any other weapons.

B. Always using the large blast marker.

C. Gaining the option of firing indirectly (with an imposed Pinning Test at -1 and determining cover save from the point-of-impact), with the drawbacks of having to remain stationary and not using BS to reduce scatter if target is out of LOS.


"Ordnance" has A.

"Ordnance Blast" has A + B.

"Ordnance Barrage" has A + B + C.

All of this can be modified with specific exceptions.

[SotonShades]

Sorry, my bad. I've just had a few people I've played against recently that have made that mistake, and didn't want theirontower picking up other people's mistakes. Just hope they don't pick up mine now lol

[steelmage99]

Hehe. No problem, mate. :)

[Porty1119]

If all blast weapons ignored cover, I would be pretty danged happy :D:D:D
(I have 8 large blast weapons in a 1000pt IG army. Yes, Air Cav).

[Xas]

all my venom cannon equipped tyrants and carnifexes would be happy if double strenght ignored armor save...

oh yes would a 3" lascannon template be fun :D