Plastic models only?

[sneakyben]

Will there ever be a time when GW only does 40k minis in plastic?

With plastic minis being so detailed these days, and much much easier to assemble and kit-bash, will GW ever stop doing doing metal models?

I hope there is a day when I no-longer have to super-glue metal models :-)

[wittdooley]

Will there ever be a time when GW only does 40k minis in plastic?

With plastic minis being so detailed these days, and much much easier to assemble and kit-bash, will GW ever stop doing doing metal models?

I hope there is a day when I no-longer have to super-glue metal models :-)

I think they'll eventually be there with troop models, or any model in which you could have a great number of.

Characters should always stay either metal or, and this would be my preference, resin. Resin would make it easier to customize a bit, but I know the costs are bit more than metal.

[isotope99]

For squads, tanks and monsters, I think we are well on our way.

Characters are going to be stuck with metal, as it seems are some of the mid range monsters (like the new clawed fiend).

For most dexes, GW have a mix of popular squads that need replacing and new units. With 3-4 plastic kits per release, it's going to be a while.

My top metal to plastic wishlist:

Space marines: Mostly plastic already, Sternguard
GKs: Hard to know until new codex is out, so I'll go with plastic assassins (a two man box like the fantasy battle wizard)
Chaos SM: Plague marines & obliterators
Dark Eldar: Talos/Cronos
Eldar: Wraithguard + Any of the aspects, but it's hard to pick one stand out candidate
Imperial guard: Storm troopers (would also make good veterans)
Necrons: Immortals/pariahs/spyders
Orks: Mega Nobz
Tau: Broadsides
Tyranids: Hive/tyrant guard
Witchhunters: Pretty much everything

[DrLove42]

My personal wish for plastic kits is an Eldar Autarch plastic box, in a similar vein to the Plastic Chaos terminator lord/sorceror box.

Currently to get the autarch you want requires buying 2 blisters and smashing them together...

[Whoop!]

I've worked with both plastic and metal, and prefer plastic so much. Is there a specific reason why some are plastic and some are metal? Why are all the special characters all made of metal? Why are there so many things I am so ignorant about?

[DrLove42]

I think in the old school days of GW they could get much better detail out of metal than they could out of plastic.

So metal miniatures were used for the highly detailed HQ's, and special pieces. Or models that would need an awkward mould

But now plastics caught up, so people want more in plastic cos its cheaper to buy, easier to convert, doesn't damage as easily etc etc

Look at the new beastmasters for DE. They're metal...but in plastic they'd have cost 30% of what they do now...

[isotope99]

I believe it is a simple cost question,

Metal is the more expensive material but is much easier and cheaper to get the mould produced, hence special characters that are much less likely to be repeat purchases, and more niche unit selections (like the beasts) tend not to get the plastic treatment whereas troops are, or soon will be, all plastic.

[wittdooley]

I believe it is a simple cost question,

Metal is the more expensive material but is much easier and cheaper to get the mould produced, hence special characters that are much less likely to be repeat purchases, and more niche unit selections (like the beasts) tend not to get the plastic treatment whereas troops are, or soon will be, all plastic.

I believe this is the case. I think resin could replace the metal in the future, as resin is dirt cheap. The molds are more expensive, however.

I think our Eldar solution is two plastic Aspect Warriors boxes: One for three of the aspects, another for the other three. I think the basic armor design is close enough that they could just be equipment swaps. Additionally, because the eldar models are so slender, I can't even begin to imagine the wealth of stuff they could fit on a sprue, particularly when you look at how much they can cram on new marine sprues, despite the bulkier frame of the marines.

I don't play eldar, but I'd buy at least a box of each to paint up one of each aspect.

[DrLove42]

Resin isn't cheap, which is why FW costs so much more

Its also lots harder to work with, particularly to beginners.

As for the "put all the aspects in 2 boxes" i'll just say this...why don't they just put tactical squads, assault squads and devastators in one box? Maybe put some CSM in there as well....they're all pretty similar! More similar than eldar aspects are to each other at least....

[wittdooley]

Resin isn't cheap, which is why FW costs so much more

Its also lots harder to work with, particularly to beginners.

As for the "put all the aspects in 2 boxes" i'll just say this...why don't they just put tactical squads, assault squads and devastators in one box? Maybe put some CSM in there as well....they're all pretty similar! More similar than eldar aspects are to each other at least....


Resin molds are more costly to make. Absolutely. The resin material is not nearly as expensive. Resin can attain finer detail than metal. Resin is lighter than metal. Resin is easier to convert/modify than metal. Resin, in this industry, is also a bit "designer." All those aspects add into the cost. FW costs more because it is the "Premium" GW line.

As to your argument about the marines: again, it doesn't make any sense in this discussion. Guess what? The devastators and the tac squads DO USE the same body sprue. The secondary sprues are different. Futher, they're already in plastic. The assault marines have different bodies than the 'regular' marines. They have different legs as well.

So guess what? They are essentially doing exactly what I suggested for the Eldar aspect models. Big difference? The Eldar Aspect models are all in metal. Take a look at the models. There is absolutely no reason Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, and Warp Spiders, as is, couldn't have the same legs and torsos. They are all relatively stagnant poses as those models use heavier ranged weaponry. In that same respect, the Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Swooping Hawks all have aggressive, more 'in action' poses. Thus, those three could very easily share legs and torsos. Again, with the amount of stuff GW is able to cram on a Marine sprue, there is NO reason this couldn't be done. The give you three options for 5 warriors at $33 (like the Sang Guard) or, as the Eldar models are more slim, do those three options to build 10 warriors at $40-45 dollars. Either way, it gives you plenty of hobby options and is no way unreasonable.

I think that you're being contrarian just to be so. Its not terribly becoming.

[Lane]

Is there a specific reason why some are plastic and some are metal? Why are all the special characters all made of metal?

At one time GW claimed a typical plastic kit (tank or troop sprues) took 400 hours and cost $100K to make the mold. Recently they switched to CNC machining the molds reducing time to about 40 hrs, no mention of cost though. This explains the recent increase on both the number of new plastic kits and the quality of the sculpts. Producing the minis is much cheaper though, molds are good for about 100k uses and a troop mini is about $.05 -.10 each.


Metal minis OTOH have lower mold cost but higher production cost. The spin casting molds are about $100 each and make about 8-10 troop size minis per casting. Typical procedure is to make a master mold then use those castings to make production molds. Thus a metal mini can be in production for about $200 in mold cost. Material cost is probably in the $.25-.50 range for a typical troop mini.The big down side for metal minis is mold life, about 200 castings before it wears out.

Labor is another big factor. Plastic kits can be pumped out at 100+ per hour. Metal minis (IIRC) are about 10 spins per hour, making roughly 100 minis. That means labor for metal minis is about 10 times as much as a plastic kit.

The end result is that basic troops, the kits that sell the most, get made from plastic. Characters and specialty models, the ones that only sell a hand full to each customer, are made from metal and cost a lot more per mini.


I think resin could replace the metal in the future, as resin is dirt cheap. The molds are more expensive, however.


Resin is expensive for both molds and the resin itself. Labor is a lit higher.

A mold for a character mini would cost at least $1.00 just in materials. Labor to make the mold is probably 1/4 the time of making a spin casting mold . From that mold you get between 10 and 50 castings with 25 being most likely. Each mold can only make about 4-5 casts per hour, though the caster can pour another mold while another is curing. Producing 20 individual models per hour is probably a good rate. The cost of resin is also fairly high as there tends to be a lot of waste in the sprue.

As a rough estimate plastics are about $.20 per mini, metal about $.60 and resin about $1.75 - $2.00 per troop size mini.

[wittdooley]

The cost of resin is also fairly high as there tends to be a lot of waste in the sprue.

As a rough estimate plastics are about $.20 per mini, metal about $.60 and resin about $1.75 - $2.00 per troop size mini.

Well hmm... I was of the understand that actual resin material wasn't that expensive, though that was based simply on information I'd be given via someone that does resin casting for miniature bases. I also didn't think the mold degredation was that severe.

Color me wrong, or at least illinformed, then.

Any idea on the degredation levels of the other materials?

[Kawauso]

I would really hate for resin to become a material used by GW.

Don't get me wrong - I have some FW items (dreadnoughts, mostly), and the amount of detail that can do into a resin mini is AMAZING (Hector Rex, anyone?).

That being said, I loathe how brittle resin is. Sure, you can get incredibly fine details on it, but I cringe whenever I think about my venerable Space Wolf dreadnought - I just know one day that banner is going to snap, no matter how careful I am with it.

That, and resin is super heat-sensitive. It's really easy for it to bend or warp if it gets too warm. This really isn't a huge concern (because why would you leave your mini in direct sunlight on a hot day, anyhow?), but it's still something worth thinking about, and I'm tired of having to 'fix' warped resin pieces after receiving them in the mail.

[DrLove42]

Resin molds are more costly to make. Absolutely. The resin material is not nearly as expensive. Resin can attain finer detail than metal. Resin is lighter than metal. Resin is easier to convert/modify than metal. Resin, in this industry, is also a bit "designer." All those aspects add into the cost. FW costs more because it is the "Premium" GW line.

As to your argument about the marines: again, it doesn't make any sense in this discussion. Guess what? The devastators and the tac squads DO USE the same body sprue. The secondary sprues are different. Futher, they're already in plastic. The assault marines have different bodies than the 'regular' marines. They have different legs as well.

So guess what? They are essentially doing exactly what I suggested for the Eldar aspect models. Big difference? The Eldar Aspect models are all in metal. Take a look at the models. There is absolutely no reason Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, and Warp Spiders, as is, couldn't have the same legs and torsos. They are all relatively stagnant poses as those models use heavier ranged weaponry. In that same respect, the Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Swooping Hawks all have aggressive, more 'in action' poses. Thus, those three could very easily share legs and torsos. Again, with the amount of stuff GW is able to cram on a Marine sprue, there is NO reason this couldn't be done. The give you three options for 5 warriors at $33 (like the Sang Guard) or, as the Eldar models are more slim, do those three options to build 10 warriors at $40-45 dollars. Either way, it gives you plenty of hobby options and is no way unreasonable.

I think that you're being contrarian just to be so. Its not terribly becoming.

Firstly i'd like to apoligise if i'm coming across as argumentative. Its just that I seem to be disagreeing with all your posts today :P

Resin material (the stuff the models are) is cheaper than metal yeah. But the moulds used are more expensive and have a shorter life expenctancy, and need to be remade more frequently. I remember hearing that the moulds for a Manta are only made when they get an order for it cos they're so specialist.

Also i would say it is harder to work with...particularly for beginners. Yes its easier to stick, but it needs washing properly, its more likely to be deformed (due to heat) and need resetting. Painting it can also be trickier if you don't know what you're doing. My first FW models i got help from my more experienced friends cos i didn't want to ruin it.

As for the Eldar things i just don't agree with that. If you've painted them (like i have) the legs are very different between say Spiders and Reapers. Scorpions are unique as they have the best aspect armour save. The difference between aspects isn't just heads and guns. Might be a cheaper option in the way you suggested but they'd lose a lose of individuality, there'd be a lot more spare components (as you suggest 5 in a box, 3 aspect to a box would give 10 spare heads, 10 spare guns/weapons). Plastic aspects as it is give more torsos and arms than legs.

And again, I apoligise if you've taken any offense to my contribuations to our discussion. Just my £0.0143

[wittdooley]

Firstly i'd like to apoligise if i'm coming across as argumentative. Its just that I seem to be disagreeing with all your posts today :P

Resin material (the stuff the models are) is cheaper than metal yeah. But the moulds used are more expensive and have a shorter life expenctancy, and need to be remade more frequently. I remember hearing that the moulds for a Manta are only made when they get an order for it cos they're so specialist.

Also i would say it is harder to work with...particularly for beginners. Yes its easier to stick, but it needs washing properly, its more likely to be deformed (due to heat) and need resetting. Painting it can also be trickier if you don't know what you're doing. My first FW models i got help from my more experienced friends cos i didn't want to ruin it.



These are really good points that I didn't consider. I knew material was less and the casting cost was more, but I didn't realize that the difference in degredation of the moulds was so drastic. That changes a lot. As for the ease: totally valid. I think, when you've been in the hobby for a while, you lose some scope as to what is truly easy and what is not. I remember my first rhino took me about 3 hours to assemble. I can knock one of those bad boys out in about 20 minutes now. The washing aspect is huge. I've worked with quite a few inexperienced painters that don't wash their metal minis. It's funny, because as an experienced (though not as much as some, but close to 10 years is a lot) hobbiest, these things are second nature to me now, and I don't even think about it. Consequently, someone that was new wouldn't consider them either, but with negative results.



As for the Eldar things i just don't agree with that. If you've painted them (like i have) the legs are very different between say Spiders and Reapers. Scorpions are unique as they have the best aspect armour save. The difference between aspects isn't just heads and guns. Might be a cheaper option in the way you suggested but they'd lose a lose of individuality, there'd be a lot more spare components (as you suggest 5 in a box, 3 aspect to a box would give 10 spare heads, 10 spare guns/weapons). Plastic aspects as it is give more torsos and arms than legs.

This comes from my cursory glances. As an admitted whore of the emperor, I've actually never painted any of the metal Eldar aspect warriors, so I was going strictly on what I can see on the website. If they're that different in person, then fair enough. I just know one of the reasons I never got into eldar was because so many of the models were metal. I'd love to see some kind of plastic solution for these.



And again, I apoligise if you've taken any offense to my contribuations to our discussion. Just my £0.0143

Dude, no worries. There's a guy on here that literally stalks me and gives me sh*t on nearly every topic I post on. We're good. I shouldn't have been so testy, as your comments have all been relevant to the conversation and have made it better!

[Lane]

Well hmm... I was of the understand that actual resin material wasn't that expensive, though that was based simply on information I'd be given via someone that does resin casting for miniature bases. I also didn't think the mold degredation was that severe.

Color me wrong, or at least illinformed, then.

Any idea on the degredation levels of the other materials?

The resin, based on large volume (like 55 gal) pricing online is about $0.15 per cubic inch. I based my estimate on 1 cubic inch per mini to account for waste in mixing, sprue and gate and reject rate. The mold cost is an estimated 3 cubic inches per troop sized mini at $0.30 per cubic inch plus time to make the mold. Labor cost is the big question here. I have heard Armorcast was paying their casters about $15/ hr in the 90's. You could get it done for about $2/ hr in China but then 3/4 of the minis on the market would be unauthorized copies. Anyway, at $1 for RTV and one hour to make mold at $15 a mold costs $0.64 per casting. Casting the minis, at a rate of 20 per hour and $15 per hour adds $0.75 per mini. Total so far is $1.54. Add in disposable mixing containers, safety equipment and anything over $15/ hr and you get my initial guess.

Resin models could be made faster than the 20/ hr. Some people are spin casting resin (vs pressure) so production rates are closer to metal minis, not quite since resin has to cool proportionately more than metal before demolding and models are more fragile. OTOH I would assume there is a greater mold cost per mini.


Labor for resin casting is the major restriction in it's production cost.
For each casting you have to clean/ prep the mold, mix the resin, pour the resin then when cured remove it from mold. Most of the time you will also take step to remove pr prevent bubbles such as pressure casting, which adds time to close lid and pressurize. Since most resins have a 90 sec to 5 min cure time there is a limit to how much resin can be mixed and poured at a time.


Mold degradation in Silicone RTV molds is variable based on several factors.
Undercuts - anyplace the mold has to stretch to release the casting. The deeper the undercut the worse for the mold.

Surface detail - fine detail tends to wear a mold faster than a slick surface. Deep narrow groves with sharp corners are bad as well.

Resin cure time -slower curing resins may allow chemicals to seep into RTV causing the surface to become brittle or fail to release the casting. Faster cure times may have more heat which may degrade mold faster.Baking the mold every so often can drive off the absorbed monomer but again adds labor time.

Silicone molds loose some of their natural release properties each casting. This can be reduced by coating with silicone oil and allowing to soak in, often while baking, but again adds labor time.

Mold release will extend the usefull life but adds time to prep.

A couple examples of mold degradation are the big tyranid models and the Manta.
I have heard the Hierophant Bio Titan orthe Harridan gets eight castings per mold. The spaces between the ribs have small pockets with undercuts, hundreds of them. The molds must literally rip themselves apart. The Manta troop seating, from what I hear, has such bad undercuts that it only get's a couple pulls before tearing.


Degradation of injection and spin casting molds I mentioned earlier.
The metal molds for injection molding last about 100,000 castings. Explains why Space Hulk was limited to IIRC 75,000 sets.

Spin casting molds get 200+ castings. I have heard over 300 is rare for high quality minis. Heat and undercuts are the major factors.

[wittdooley]

The resin, based on large volume (like 55 gal) pricing online is about $0.15 per cubic inch. I based my estimate on 1 cubic inch per mini to account for waste in mixing, sprue and gate and reject rate. The mold cost is an estimated 3 cubic inches per troop sized mini at $0.30 per cubic inch plus time to make the mold. Labor cost is the big question here. I have heard Armorcast was paying their casters about $15/ hr in the 90's. You could get it done for about $2/ hr in China but then 3/4 of the minis on the market would be unauthorized copies. Anyway, at $1 for RTV and one hour to make mold at $15 a mold costs $0.64 per casting. Casting the minis, at a rate of 20 per hour and $15 per hour adds $0.75 per mini. Total so far is $1.54. Add in disposable mixing containers, safety equipment and anything over $15/ hr and you get my initial guess.

Resin models could be made faster than the 20/ hr. Some people are spin casting resin (vs pressure) so production rates are closer to metal minis, not quite since resin has to cool proportionately more than metal before demolding and models are more fragile. OTOH I would assume there is a greater mold cost per mini.


Labor for resin casting is the major restriction in it's production cost.
For each casting you have to clean/ prep the mold, mix the resin, pour the resin then when cured remove it from mold. Most of the time you will also take step to remove pr prevent bubbles such as pressure casting, which adds time to close lid and pressurize. Since most resins have a 90 sec to 5 min cure time there is a limit to how much resin can be mixed and poured at a time.


Mold degradation in Silicone RTV molds is variable based on several factors.
Undercuts - anyplace the mold has to stretch to release the casting. The deeper the undercut the worse for the mold.

Surface detail - fine detail tends to wear a mold faster than a slick surface. Deep narrow groves with sharp corners are bad as well.

Resin cure time -slower curing resins may allow chemicals to seep into RTV causing the surface to become brittle or fail to release the casting. Faster cure times may have more heat which may degrade mold faster.Baking the mold every so often can drive off the absorbed monomer but again adds labor time.

Silicone molds loose some of their natural release properties each casting. This can be reduced by coating with silicone oil and allowing to soak in, often while baking, but again adds labor time.

Mold release will extend the usefull life but adds time to prep.

A couple examples of mold degradation are the big tyranid models and the Manta.
I have heard the Hierophant Bio Titan orthe Harridan gets eight castings per mold. The spaces between the ribs have small pockets with undercuts, hundreds of them. The molds must literally rip themselves apart. The Manta troop seating, from what I hear, has such bad undercuts that it only get's a couple pulls before tearing.


Degradation of injection and spin casting molds I mentioned earlier.
The metal molds for injection molding last about 100,000 castings. Explains why Space Hulk was limited to IIRC 75,000 sets.

Spin casting molds get 200+ castings. I have heard over 300 is rare for high quality minis. Heat and undercuts are the major factors.


Really enlightening stuff. Thanks!

So based on this, let me pose this question: Is there any reason that GW couldn't do all the Character minis Space Hulk style? Obviously those were hightly detailed. You'd think that 100,000 copies of one character would be enough to sustain itself for quite some time. I realize if they did it as one sprue, then extra labor would be required to clip the pieces separately from the sprues. If they did them singularly in the little 3x4 plastic rectangles, that could also allow them to put every special character in a box with nice art, etc. That could be REALLY cool. Any idea if priting the boxes is cheaper than blisters?

[Lane]

So based on this, let me pose this question: Is there any reason that GW couldn't do all the Character minis Space Hulk style? Obviously those were hightly detailed.

They could but I doubt they will.

To make the existing characters in plastic they would have to optically scan the existing models, fix the 3D models from the scan, cut the model into multiple pieces, figure out how to position for best molding, fix any undercuts that result, add draft angles for injection casting then make sure the final model looks good. Most of this applies to models that start 3D as well and they do some new kits starting from greens. Designing a mold is not easy.

Making a big mold with multiple characters also limits them. If you spend a lot of time and money making a mold you would be reluctant to change the design later on.

Sales are another factor. Some characters simply may not have projected sales that justify making them in plastic.

Rather than make the existing characters in plastic I would like to see more multi option character kits.

[wittdooley]

Sorry for so many questions, but this is really great for information. So based on that, anything that is metal is still being done traditionally via green, whereas anything on a sprue is getting the CAD treatment?

[Lane]

A while back there was an article in WD talking about their new production methods of making plastic injection molds. IIRC it said the WHFB Giant was their first kit using the new method.

They mentioned that scanning a physical model is an option but expected most models to be pure 3D designs. I suspect some models will continue to begin as a green simply because people like to see a physical object at the concept stage. Also a 3D model would need textures and rendering to look as good as a green adding work at the concept stage. They could do a 3D print but suitable resolution prints are expensive.

My guess is that the new Dark Eldar started with a few greens to get approval of the designs. These would have been scanned into 3D models and used as the basis of entire line. Once the full line was designed, possibly even sprue layout done, they would have done renders of the completed models and maybe a single 3D print of the sprue. By making a print of the sprue they could check for any assembly problems that did not show up on 3D models.

[Grimstonefire]

Given the experience GW have in moulding and that they are highly susceptible to fluctuations in metal prices, I suspect looking ahead that they will move away from metal models as much as possible.

The problem with this is that many things will not be profitable quickly enough because of the cost of plastic moulds. Where does this leave them?

To me the answer is for them to invent a new way to cast resin that has a quick demoulding time and low(ish) degredation. With all the experience and money they have this should be possible.

I'm a bit surprised to be honest that they're still pumping out new metal models at all.

[FastEd]

I think the more logical progression would be to find ways to reduce the cost of plastic molds, or at least the cost per model cast. For instance, batch casting and manually separating each sub-sprue would be cheaper/more efficient then resin casting, and would be more newbie friendly.

[Lane]

The problem with multiple small sets on one mold plate is that all nee to have roughly equal sales.
Imagine if you had six figures on one mold plate, thus all six figures are case each time.
One figure sells 1000 per month, two sell 500/ month, 3 sell 200/ month.
That would mean either storing or trowing away 3400 figures per month.

I think metal minis for characters will be with us for a long time.

[jackidela]

If you want to buy plastic molds then can buy with the help of our company. You can buy these things within an affordable price online or from any store also.
______________________________
plastic injection molding companies (http://www.actionmold.com/)