1750 Dark eldar

[FallingCalamity]

Archon, huskblade. combat drugs, soul trap, phantasm and shadow field (170)
(9) incubi and the klaivex (213)
In a raider with flickerfield (70)

(10) mandrakes and a nightfiend (160)

(10) mandrakes and a nightfiend (160)

(10) wyches, hydra gauntlets, shardnet, Hekatrix with a Agonizer. In a raider with flickerfield (220)

(10) wyches, hydra gauntlets, shardnet, Hekatrix with a Agonizer. In a raider with flickerfield (220)

(10) warriors with a darklance (115)

(10) warriors with a Splinter Cannon in a raider with flickerfield and splinter racks with a disintegrator cannon (180)

Ravager with flickerfield and nightshields (125)

Ravager with flickerfield and nightshields (125) 172

1758 im 8 points over what do you guys think how to fix this

Thank you :D

[DrLove42]

Lose a mandrake.

Or maybe lose about 20.

Can give the hekatrix blast pistols. Maybe make the warrior squad not in a raider bigger, with a 2nd heavy weapon, to sit on home objectives...

[BlindGunn]

I would also free up some points and give Haywire Grenades to the Wyches. They can do double-duty and it helps them in the event you run into a dreadnought-heavy force.

I would also consider dropping the Disintegrator Cannon on the one Raider and go back to DarK Lance. You don't really have enough ranged AT ability in this list with only 2 Ravagers, 3 raiders with lances and one foot-Lance.

Good Luck!

[DrLove42]

I don't see why everyone insists on giving wyches haywires. Yes if they encounter a vehicle they can do something, but its a fair few points...and against a dreadnaught, you get 1 attack each, and need a 6 to hit...

[BlindGunn]

I don't see why everyone insists on giving wyches haywires. Yes if they encounter a vehicle they can do something, but its a fair few points...and against a dreadnaught, you get 1 attack each, and need a 6 to hit...
The issue is with walkers specifically. Wyches caught in close combat with a Dread cannot shoot it and are too weak to hurt it's armour otherwise. They get stuck in a grinding match they cannot win. As a result, it has become a favoured Marine tactic to throw Dreadnoughts into combat with Wyches. It was different when the Agonizer used to do Glancing hits on vehicles. I had Dreads avoiding me as they didn't want to die to a whip last codex.

With More Marines looking at Dreads (thanks to the Blood Angles), you're more likely to run into the situation.

With Haywires, yes, you'll need a 6 to hit (at first), but you'll be able to hit with enough numbers, and have a chance of destroying it (especially after immobalizing it and blowing all the weapons off, etc). You won't be completely helpless in the Dreadnought-Grinder with Haywire. If you're lucky, you'll be able to take the dread down in a turn or two with lucky hits and go on with your duties.

[somerandomdude]

I think you need a Cronos to give the Mandrakes any hope at all of doing something. The way they are now you'll probably have to send all 20 into a single squad and hope to overwhelm them with wounds to get a pain token for one of them.

[thecactusman17]

Well, the Mandrakes are the one that everyone will jump on. If you want them though more power to you. Just realize that they are not the absolute best units for doing their job.

What I would do is remove the Huskblade and soul trap from the Archon. The primary issue is that he is great against the first unaccompanied independant character you face, but unless you kill him in single combat all the Incubi will kill the model instead (or force a run) and your HQ who is costed more than an entire squad of Wyches will be left at S3 (unless you get a great Drugs roll).

Instead, give him an Agonizer. They're great, and when you match that with Haywire grenades you have a model who can potentially hurt everyone (including high toughness monstrous creatures like Wraithlords) a lot. For about 30-50 points less. Which you can use to spruce up the rest of your squads.

Oh, and the splinter warriors can't move more than 6 inches and fire their weapons from the raider. If you want a splinter weapon battalion, run 20 models together and drop them into cover. You'll do plenty of damage and you can even move and fire the cannons if you really need to back up for a turn.

[Necron2.0]

I don't see why everyone insists on giving wyches haywires. Yes if they encounter a vehicle they can do something, but its a fair few points...and against a dreadnaught, you get 1 attack each, and need a 6 to hit...

To add to what BlindGunn said, unless you're unlucky or out maneuvered, chances are you'll be hitting on a 4+. Either your Hekatrix will have immobilized it with her blaster, or else some other unit will have softenned it up first. As you've indicated, given a choice it would be unwise to assault a fully functioning dreadnaught. Also remember, it does not matter how far the Dread has moved in its movement phase. It only matters that it has been immobilized prior to your assault phase.

[FallingCalamity]

Thanks guys for the info had a game the other day fighting eldar with this list complely smashed him. Had so much fun playing this list the Harlequins were so fun to use and on the charge 41 attacks and rending is just somthing epic to roll in ya hands :D you guys can have a noisey at this list :D

10 Harlequins inc Troupe master, shadowseer, death jester, 9 kisses 276

Incubi, klaivex, Raider, Flickerfield 283

Mandrake, nightfiend 160

Archon, Huskblade, combat drugs, soul trap, Phantasm, shadow 170

Wyches, Hydra,hydra, Hekatrix,Agonizer, raider, Flickerfield 220

Wyches, Hydra, hydra, Hekatrix,Agonizer, raider, Flickerfield 220

Warriors, splinter cannon, raider, flickerfield 170

Ravager, night shields, flickerfield 125

Ravager, night shields, flickerfield 125

1749

[newtoncain]

This is going to sound like a broken record; All DE armies (that are competitive) should start with:
Baron
Hellions x 15-20

345-425 for this core. +1 to go 1st, +1 cover save on jump troops (that count as scoring units), hit and run,.....:eek:

[blackarmchair]

It's true.

Baron and Hellions are too good to be true. My personal flavor is to run them in a webway list but they're an all-around great unit.

[crazy_irish]

This is going to sound like a broken record; All DE armies (that are competitive) should start with:
Baron
Hellions x 15-20

345-425 for this core. +1 to go 1st, +1 cover save on jump troops (that count as scoring units), hit and run,.....:eek:

This may sound like a blow against the record player; There are loads of Units to be competitive!
Whats with the 90P for 3 Troop choices?

It may be a good combo, but it ain't a must have unit to be competitive.


FallingCalamity: So you played against Eldar with 10 Lances at 1750P, and it was enough to get though their stupid vehicle amour? Would like to here something about that, but *thumbs up* for showing our cousins who is boss around here ;-)

[blackarmchair]

Dark Eldar - interestingly enough suffer from an issue that is much more common in older codexes: they have very few GOOD choices in each slot namely in troops, fast attack and heavy support (their HQs and Elites are pretty good).

Tarpit wyches aside, DE have AWFUL troops. So anything that lets you take other units as troops (wracks and hellions) are dynamite. That's why newtoncain was saying that hellions are necessary for competitive play.

[eldargal]

That is absurd, one of the most bizarre statements I've ever seen, even on Warseer. DE warriors are excellent, De Fast attack is excellent, DE Heavy support is excellent. The only vaguely lacklustre unit are Mandrakes, in the elite slot, and even then I've had a lot more success with them than people seem to expect.

[DrLove42]

Quins are a little laclustre, just cos Brides do as good a job...

And agree with Eldargal on this one...the entire codex is awesome. You stick a unit of warriors with a cannon and a lance, with a hemonc in cover on your home objective and its going to be hella hard to shift them without a dedicated assault unit...even then they'll have to withstand around 42 poisoned shots a turn. They're one of the few troops choices in the game that Wraithlords, Nid Big Bugs and the soon to be released Dreadknight should be worried about.

[somerandomdude]

Dark Eldar - interestingly enough suffer from an issue that is much more common in older codexes: they have very few GOOD choices in each slot namely in troops, fast attack and heavy support (their HQs and Elites are pretty good).

Tarpit wyches aside, DE have AWFUL troops. So anything that lets you take other units as troops (wracks and hellions) are dynamite. That's why newtoncain was saying that hellions are necessary for competitive play.

That is HILARIOUS. First, if you think Warriors are awful, just say so. Don't go around your opinion. Second, change your opinion. Very cheap for what they bring, are not dictated by your HQ, and several viable options for loadouts/squad size.

And I assume by "very few GOOD choices" you mean "a whole lot of great choices, no good ones"?

Obviously Ravagers will overshadow other Heavies that people don't take the time to look at, but Razorwings are fantastic, and the Cronos is an opportunity to take advantage of the biggest exploit in the book. What's that, 100 points to give out USRs every turn, based on how the battle is going? Sure, a lot of armies will default to Ravagers, but the other planes can be great at higher point games.

As for Fast Attack choices... seriously? The only bad choice is Hellions (as a FA, not as a Troop). Deepstriking Haywire Blasters with a lot of splinter fire, more morale checks in the movement phase, or the most dangerous unit to exit a WWP? I see a lot of people comment about how horrible Reavers are compared to before, but the reason for that isn't because they got worse, it's because the FA choices for SO MUCH better.

If anything, the Elite slot is overfilled. It's tough to justify taking anything other than Trueborn in an effort to be "competitive". The other choices are good, sure, but I'd make an argument that the Elite choice is a bigger no-brainer than any other spot in the book.

[BlindGunn]

The only complaint I've got for the DE codex is that they haven't released the Venom, Razorwing or Voidraven models yet! The rest of the models I'm not in as much of a rush for, but would like to see sooner than later...

[newtoncain]

Warriors are ok, I perfer 1 unit of hellions and 2 units of wracks. Sure you need the baron and a Heamo, but if they both start with the hellions = FNP/+3 cover right of the bat. Assault something, hit and run (with rerolls) on your opponents turn 3d6 across the board. Re-assault the same unit to kill it or shoot it to death (pain token:eek:) with another. Ofcourse Heam leaves hellions on the 1st turn.
True born also rock in VENOM (Just convert a viper).
Ravagers and Razorwing FTR are nice. Nothing says "Alpha Strike" like 4 x STR 6 large blasts, 2 x STR 8 lances and 6 +4 posion shots from 36".
Venoms @ 65 just kill anything not in a "cracker box", 12 x 4+ poison shots.

As for warriors, 10 in a Raider with splinter racks can bring the rapid fire poison pain.

Wyches are also good for CC, but with having only 8 that are WYSWYG and not wanting to buy/paint more = I don't use them much.

I really love the beast units, but they are not as good now with the FNP nerf. Yes they might have been over the top before the nerf, but is that any different than free CA, Rune weapon that negates all pyschic powers on a 4+, pyschic powers that cercomvent eternal warrior? Or 75pt range 72 Str 7 4 shot twin linked ignoirs flat out cover saves? Or most of the BA stuff?

[blackarmchair]

So...paying double the cost for BS4 guardsmen is great now? That's news to me.
Yes, I realize you can give them nice guns but they'll survive long enough to shoot them once (twice if you get first turn). IG players have enough trouble keeping their troops alive and they get to put them in AV12 transports and they have commissars and orders to keep them from breaking and booking it. Kabalites just don't stand up to MEQs, if they were like 6pts I could see taking them but as it stands they're overcosted because you're paying for upgrades you won't use (i.e. I5, WS4). I mean anyone who sees a unit with T3 and 1 base attack and thinks cc needs to re-evaluate how they play this game.

Fast Attacks? Really? Hellions are alright in big squads but I count them as troops because if you're going to play DE competitively you're GOING to take Baron. Scourges are WAAAY overcosted 30+ points for a properly upgraded model with less survivability than a MEQ? For frame of reference a Long Fang with a Rocket costs 25pts and is WORLDS better (better ld, better T, better save, arguably better guns for cheaper). Beasts are meh. I look at them and think: I want these instead of more hellions....why? Clawed Fiends are interesting but are really just speedy Ogryns without Ripper Guns. Reavers CAN be pretty decent, but they're highly gimmiky and don't mean much to high ld/fearless armies (which are most armies these days) and cost FAR too much for what they do seeing as you almost have to take them in larger squads.

DE Heavies are crap. They have 1.5 good choices. Yes Ravagers are nice, very nice. Cronos are....almost nice; the pain token generation thing is great but when you consider that it has only 3 wounds, a 3+ save, poor cc skills compared to other MCs and no invuln I have to wonder how it's going to kill anything in the first place. No one is going to just let you assault their wimpy devastator squads with it. Voidravens and Razorwings have cool upgrades but a Ravager is more cost effective.

Yes, Elites are pretty good and there are some DECENT - albeit gimmicky - HQs.

It's really funny to me that the DE are a 5th ed dex and are down to a few builds already. Granted, I'm speaking from a competitive background; beer and pretzels they're a pretty fun army. Considered in a vacuum they're OK but you really need to sit down and ask yourself what do DE bring to the table that other top-tier armies don't do better for cheaper?

If you want fast hand-to-hand units just play BA. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that a wych is better than a furious charging assault marine who gets FnP WITHOUT having to rely on a tenuous game mechanic to do so.

If you want a "gunboat" shooty army that book came out a while ago, it's called Imperial Guard and they do it soooo much better for sooo much cheaper.

If you want powerful all-rounders that book is called Space Wolves and they outfight and (often) outshoot DE at the same time.

I'm not bashing the dex, I think it's fun and I really like it's fluff. It's just not very competitive when you consider the sorts of armies people are going to bring to a tournament.

[somerandomdude]

You said a lot, and I may get to it another time, but this struck me and I wanted to address it.


If you want fast hand-to-hand units just play BA. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that a wych is better than a furious charging assault marine who gets FnP WITHOUT having to rely on a tenuous game mechanic to do so.

Blood Angels have a much more gimmicky FNP requirement. Needing an IC within 6" (or in the unit) means that they're at a greater risk of losing FNP than Wyches who can never lose it (outside of an IC leaving and taking the token with them).

That IC can easily be killed in assault with only 1W and no invulnerable (outside of TDA). Considering the IC for the DE is cheaper (assuming the Priest is built for jumpers) and it doesn't matter once the game starts if he survives, I'd say the DE game mechanic is a bit stronger. Sure, they don't start with FC, but they CAN get it (and Fearless).

Furious Charge still has them strike at I5.

Assault Marines have no invulnerable. An assault army with invulnerables on your troops > an assault army without invulnerables, especially if the first one is cheaper.

Really, these blanket statements you are making are a bit extreme.

Oh wait, and one more:


the pain token generation thing is great but when you consider that it has only 3 wounds, a 3+ save, poor cc skills compared to other MCs and no invuln I have to wonder how it's going to kill anything in the first place. No one is going to just let you assault their wimpy devastator squads with it.

Not sure what your real complaint was as I was talking about its shooting ability (hence the 100 point pricetag). I don't care if the Cronos EVER assaults - that's not what it is there for.

[blackarmchair]

Yeah that might be nice on paper but how are your wyches going to kill anything without FnP/Furious charge in the 1st place?

If you'll look I never said wyches were useless, I understand they have uses (tarpit) but S3 with 3 attacks on the charge doesn't bode well for them actually killing anything. 3 attacks --> 1.5 hits --> 0.5 wounds per Wych against MEQ factor in that 66% of that will be saved and Wyches really are not awesome for killing stuff.

As per the Cronos, how do you intend to use it's ranged weapons without being vulnerable to assault? It's longest range weapon is 18" and that's S3 so not only is it not great for killing things but it puts you VERY close to your opponent. T7 doesn't mean much when your average MEQ player has Thunder Shield Terminators, rocket spam etc etc.

As per your point about the priests there are countless ways to make priests survivable. Keep him in the back of the squad and therefore out of cc. Keep him in a vehicle and have him project his bubble from there. Take a sanguinary noviate in an honour guard squad so he can't be singled out. It's really not that hard. Plus a priest is flat out better as he gives the benefits to your entire army right off the jump.

[jorz192]

So...paying double the cost for BS4 guardsmen is great now? That's news to me.
Yes, I realize you can give them nice guns but they'll survive long enough to shoot them once (twice if you get first turn). IG players have enough trouble keeping their troops alive and they get to put them in AV12 transports and they have commissars and orders to keep them from breaking and booking it. Kabalites just don't stand up to MEQs, if they were like 6pts I could see taking them but as it stands they're overcosted because you're paying for upgrades you won't use (i.e. I5, WS4). I mean anyone who sees a unit with T3 and 1 base attack and thinks cc needs to re-evaluate how they play this game.

Fast Attacks? Really? Hellions are alright in big squads but I count them as troops because if you're going to play DE competitively you're GOING to take Baron. Scourges are WAAAY overcosted 30+ points for a properly upgraded model with less survivability than a MEQ? For frame of reference a Long Fang with a Rocket costs 25pts and is WORLDS better (better ld, better T, better save, arguably better guns for cheaper). Beasts are meh. I look at them and think: I want these instead of more hellions....why? Clawed Fiends are interesting but are really just speedy Ogryns without Ripper Guns. Reavers CAN be pretty decent, but they're highly gimmiky and don't mean much to high ld/fearless armies (which are most armies these days) and cost FAR too much for what they do seeing as you almost have to take them in larger squads.

DE Heavies are crap. They have 1.5 good choices. Yes Ravagers are nice, very nice. Cronos are....almost nice; the pain token generation thing is great but when you consider that it has only 3 wounds, a 3+ save, poor cc skills compared to other MCs and no invuln I have to wonder how it's going to kill anything in the first place. No one is going to just let you assault their wimpy devastator squads with it. Voidravens and Razorwings have cool upgrades but a Ravager is more cost effective.

Yes, Elites are pretty good and there are some DECENT - albeit gimmicky - HQs.

It's really funny to me that the DE are a 5th ed dex and are down to a few builds already. Granted, I'm speaking from a competitive background; beer and pretzels they're a pretty fun army. Considered in a vacuum they're OK but you really need to sit down and ask yourself what do DE bring to the table that other top-tier armies don't do better for cheaper?

If you want fast hand-to-hand units just play BA. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that a wych is better than a furious charging assault marine who gets FnP WITHOUT having to rely on a tenuous game mechanic to do so.

If you want a "gunboat" shooty army that book came out a while ago, it's called Imperial Guard and they do it soooo much better for sooo much cheaper.

If you want powerful all-rounders that book is called Space Wolves and they outfight and (often) outshoot DE at the same time.

I'm not bashing the dex, I think it's fun and I really like it's fluff. It's just not very competitive when you consider the sorts of armies people are going to bring to a tournament.

Your math skills are poor. I seem to remember guardsmen being 6 points per model, and kabalite warriors are nine points per model. That is not twice as many points per model. The warriors have splinter rifles which are much better than lasguns, always wounding on a roll of 4+ always.

Scourges are 22 points per model and 27 with a shard carbine not 30+ points per model. When reavers turbo boost they have a 3+ cover save making them more durable, with the possibility of feel-no-pain from combat drugs. It's a good choice to take Sliscus, he has more advantages than just the re-roll on the combat drugs chart.

The Baron is extremely good and I have had good luck with his +1 on the die roll to decide who goes first.

You seem to be a huge fan of Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

[Tynskel]

look at his icon, it is a space wolf...