1500 Tau army list for a friend, criticism needed!

[Lemt]

So, a friend has drawn another friend to the hobby using the "look at the awesome minis" method. But of all the minis he could like, he's gone and fallen in love with Tau. And since he doesn't know anything about the game ("I just want the minis coz they're awesome") he's tasked me with making an army list for him ("I'd prefer to be able to play with my minis if I ever decide to go that deep").

Me being driven by my competitive spirit, as proven by the completely wacky, non-canonical and WTF Tyranid list I play, I want to give him the best possible list I can manage to build. But since I don't have much experience with Tau I'd appreciate it a ton if you guys would comment on this list, and tell me if anything's inherently wrong with it.


HQ
Shas'el w/ Airbursting Frag, TL Fusion Blaster, Bonding Knife, HW-MT, HW-TL

TROOPS
6 Fire Warriors, Devilfish w/ SMS, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array
6 Fire Warriors, Devilfish w/ SMS, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array

ELITES
3 Crisis w/ TL Missile Pods, Target Lock, Team Leader with Bonding Knife
3 Crisis w/ TL Missile Pods, Target Lock

FAST ATTACK
4 Pathfinders, Devilfish w/ SMS, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array

HS
3 Broadsides w/ Multi-Tracker, Team Leader w/ Target Lock
Hammerhead w/ Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-tracker, Target Lock
Hammerhead w/ Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-tracker, Target Lock

TOTAL 1499 points, 12 Victory points, about 290€

The general idea is, well, to play Tau and hope for the best. I like Target Locks because they allow you to split fire and avoid redundancy if you don't want it. In other words you can shoot one unit of Crisis suits at 3 targets, and then only fire again at those targets that are still a threat (AKA don't shoot at targets that have been disabled already). Same with the Railguns, split the Broadside's fire amongst 2 targets, and then shoot the Hammerheads at whatever's left standing.
I keep a split between Hammerheads and Broadsides because I know for a fact he'll have to fight high armor and MCs (Leman Russes, Land Raiders, Tyranid MCs and other such stuff is much more common in our meta than hordes).
I've put the Airbusting weapon on the HQ because I like the sound of it, is it really worth it?
I'm not really sold on playing many Pathfinders, that's why I've only included a single minimal unit. They're good for sure, but not good enough IMHO to warrant playing another unit over anything else I've included. I'd probably play one more unit at 2000 points, but yeah.


So, any comments on my choices? Tips? Ideas to convince him to play an army that's easier on new players?


EDIT: Thanks to Tyunskel's suggestion, consider the TL Fusion Blaster on the Commander changed to a TL Missile Pod. I'll leave the main entry untouched so people don't get lost in the thread.
EDIT 2: Thanks to Commander Vimes' suggestions, even more changes have been made to the list. It's lower down in this page, or HERE (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=122875&postcount=10).

[Tynskel]

i like the airbust frag launcher.
3 reasons: 1) you have target lock, so you can have it fire at a second target. 2) it is a barrage weapon and does not require line of sight. 3) it ignores cover! w00t!

However, I do not like the commander with the fusion blaster--- that means you have to move him up really close. Second there are no escorts for him that are similarly equipped, so your commander would have to engage on his own.

You might want to check out Target Lock again-- you must declare all shooting before firing. So, you do not know if your fire is being 'redundant' or not.

Next, you have 2 Hammerheads and 3 broadsides. That's a lot of heavy anti-tank. You could probably drop 1 hammerhead. This will give you 170 points to spend. That's 2-3 more crisis suits-- these ones could be a 'body guard' for the commander (does not mean they have to bodyguard). If you plan on keeping the fusion blaster on the commander, I would give these suits short range weapons.

Or you could find 5 points and take Shadowsun. I like shadowsun a lot.

[blackarmchair]

http://perilsoftheblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/other-fish-in-sea.html

Wrote an article about competitive Tau. Hopefully this gives you some ideas.

[Lemt]

i like the airbust frag launcher.
3 reasons: 1) you have target lock, so you can have it fire at a second target. 2) it is a barrage weapon and does not require line of sight. 3) it ignores cover! w00t!

However, I do not like the commander with the fusion blaster--- that means you have to move him up really close. Second there are no escorts for him that are similarly equipped, so your commander would have to engage on his own.

You might want to check out Target Lock again-- you must declare all shooting before firing. So, you do not know if your fire is being 'redundant' or not.

Next, you have 2 Hammerheads and 3 broadsides. That's a lot of heavy anti-tank. You could probably drop 1 hammerhead. This will give you 170 points to spend. That's 2-3 more crisis suits-- these ones could be a 'body guard' for the commander (does not mean they have to bodyguard). If you plan on keeping the fusion blaster on the commander, I would give these suits short range weapons.

Or you could find 5 points and take Shadowsun. I like shadowsun a lot.

VERY good point on the Fusion Blaster. I can just change it to a twin-linked Missile Pod, so it can join the Crisis suits. If anything gets too close, barrage away. The 5 Railgun shots should be more than enough for heavy vehicles anyhow.

I didn't explain my use of Target Lock well, so let me try again.
Example scenario:
You have 3 groups of 3 Crisis suits with Missile Pods, and the enemy advances 3 Rhinos.
Case 1: You tell your first unit of Crisis suits (Crisis suits in this case don't have Target Lock) to open fire, and get 2 results that disable them (Crew Stunned, Immobilised, Wrecked or Explodes! all count as disabling in most cases). You've just probably wasted 1 disabling shot. You order the second Unit of Crisis suits to fire, they do nothing. The third unit fires, and rolls a disable. So you've gotten 3 disabling rolls, but only 2 Rhinos are disabled!
Case 2: You instead order that first unit of Crisis suits (WITH Target Lock) to open fire, but each suit targets a different Rhino. You roll 2 disables on different targets. The second Crisis unit targets the last rhino with all their firepower, because you consider those 3 rhinos to be top priority targets (maybe they carry Berzerkers, or something). But they do nothing! So you order the third Crisis unit to open fire on the rhino, and get a Disable. Final result, 3 disabling rolls and 3 Rhinos disabled.
Back to Case 1: The second unit of Crisis suits fires at the second Rhino, and disable it. So the third Crisis unit has to fire at the third rhino.
But in Case 2, the second unit of Crisis suit can fire at Rhino 3 (as Rhinos 1 and 2 are already disabled). If they disable the third Rhino, you have a Crisis unit that can fire at a totally different target, or split fire between the Rhinos left standing in hope of blowing one up, or go for a cup of tea!

TL:DR I think the extra flexibility from Target Lock is more important than the slightly higher chance of hitting granted by Targeting Array.

As for cutting a Hammerhead, I'm just a sucker for redundancy. Specially considering I KNOW he will fight against tons of Mech and MCs, as I have already said. He will have to fight Mech Ig, 2-3 Mech SM variants all with at least one Land Raider each, somre more random SM and CSM, Nidzilla (that would be me), Mech Eldar, Mech Eldar with Wraithlords, etc. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only non-mechanised army he may face is one ork player that plays horde, and badly at that. But then the Hammerheads are good too.


http://perilsoftheblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/other-fish-in-sea.html

Wrote an article about competitive Tau. Hopefully this gives you some ideas.


I have that blog in my favs already, and I've read that article. I added the Fusion Blaster because I followed his advice on that. I just think Target Lock is better than Targetting Array if you have TwinLinked weapons (75% chance to hit for each BS3-TL shot). But thanks for the link anyways. :D


Thanks a lot for the comments! And if you find enything else that could be changed, please let me know!

[Commander Vimes]

Pathfinders are amazing, you should take a full squad with a Shas'ui. I run two at 1850 and it works great for me.

Drop one of the Fire Warrior Devilfish. That squad can ride in the Pathfinders' fish. Devilfish are way overpriced, take as few as you can.

Target locks are lousy on Missile Pod suits. They're not worth 5 points, and definitely not worth the hard point. Take either targeting arrays or flamers. The flamers are cheaper and on the occasions you can use them, they're awesome to have. Targeting arrays are always a solid boost.

You also have no plasma in this list. The Fireknife suit (plasma, missile pod, mulit-tracker) is popular for a reason. I'd suggest at least one squad of those.

The Shas'el is poorly built. The airburst looks good on paper, but I've tested it many times and its range and low strength consistently fail me. Over the course of a 4 game tournament I did more damage to myself with it than my opponent. For 20 points it is far too situational. Plasma rifle and fusion blaster is a solid combo that I run on my Shas'el with a targeting array. Also, add a Positional Relay. It as amazingly useful piece of wargear.

The Broadsides NEED a pair of shield drones. I often attach an HQ with a pair of drones to my Broadsides just to give them more wounds and better leadership. Also, multi-tracker with smart missiles sucks; multi-tracker with twin-linked plasma rifles is awesome.

I've never found Target Locks very useful on vehicles. I also prefer Ionheads to Railheads. One shot is far too likely to miss, while the Ionhead is cheap, resilient, and good against most targets.

This would be a much stronger list.

HQ
Shas'el w/ plasma, fusion, Positional Relay, multi-tracker, target lock

Elite
3x Crisis w/ plasma, missiles, multi-tracker
3x Crisis w/ twin missiles, flamer

Troops
6x Fire Warriors w/ Devilfish w/ smart missiles, targeting array, multi-tracker, disruption pods
6x Fire Warriors

Fast Attack
8 Pathfinders w/ Shas'ui
Devilfish w/ smart missiles, targeting array, multi-tracker, disruption pods

Heavy
3x Broadsides with twin plasma, multi-trackers, team leader with 2 shield drones and target lock
Railhead w/ burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pods
Ionhead w burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pods

[Lemt]

Taking a Devilfish away from the warriors could be a good way to free up points, specially if I want to increase the number of Pathfinders.
I have considered flamers over Target Locks, and still consider it. I just want to see if the two railheads plus airbust would be enough area fire instead, because there's little horde in my area.
Plasma Rifles may be a good idea, speciall to deal with MCs, MEQs and termies. but if I do change one unit of Crisis from Misisles to Plasma I really think the Target Locks have to stay on the Missiles. How would one unit with TLMissiles/Locks and another with Plasma/Flamers/x work?
Ionhead would be vey important if I change a Crisis unit to be less anti-tank, and maybe even if I don't. The loss of area shouldn't hurt too much, but wold be another reason to possibly keep the airburst.

You've given me much to think about, thanks for the great suggestions! I think I'll sleep everything over and make a second version of the list tomorrow.

[Archduke]

I know that fire warriors arn't your most points effective unit but you do need some more. Only running 2 scoring units is a very dangerous game to play at 1500.

[Tynskel]

it can be. It depends.

In the case that both units are mounted, that keeps them alive. Personally, I like larger squads, and I would have 3: two mounted one on foot. However, the other route is to have overwhelming firepower, which is what the above list is.

I do have to admit, though, two small squads of firewarriors are difficult for a first time user.

[blackarmchair]

A good friend of mine plays Tau and he tends to run only a few, small, mounted squads.

Especially with decent front armour on a devilfish (AV12) and disruption pods they're not TOO hard to protect.

[Lemt]

I was thinking, are Sniper Drone Teams any good? For a little less than the cost of a Railhead you can get 2 Sniper Drone teams (in a single FoC slot). That means 2 more markers, and the six pinning shots can be really good. They can hurt MCs, or they can fire at enemy infantry to keep them down. If needed, they can even fire at light vehicles too. Less strength per shot than an Ionhead, but more shots.

Here's what I'm looking at right now:


HQ
Shas'el w/ Airbursting Frag, TL Missile Pods, Bonding Knife, HW-MT

TROOPS
6 Fire Warriors, Devilfish w/ SMS, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array
6 Fire Warriors

ELITES
3 Crisis w/ TL Missile Pods, Target Lock
3 Crisis w/ TL Plasma Rifle, Flamer, Team Leader with Bonding Knife

FAST ATTACK
6 Pathfinders, Devilfish w/ SMS, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array

HS
3 Broadsides w/ Multi-Tracker, Team Leader w/ Target Lock, HW Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones, Knife
Hammerhead w/ Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-tracker, Target Lock
2 Sniper Drone Teams

TOTAL 1499 points, 12 Victory points, about 290€

The commander joins the Missile Crisis suits, so he doesn't need a Target Lock himself. Sniper drone teams and TLPlasma/flamer suits are mostly just to try them out and see how they work, so don't consider them final. Only 6 Pathfinders, for two reasons. I can't find where to cut more points, and they are sold in groups of 3.

[JxKxR]

A squad of six pathfinders is fine I run a squad of 5 and plant them in the center of the table. What ever they point at dies no problem.

You probable won't be too happy with the Plasma/Flamer combo because you want that plasma rifle firing away all game so you should keep him back and out of flamer range.

As for the sniper team I find that they suck. They won't pin, they hardly kill anything, and they are way to expensive for what they do. If you want more markerlights I might suggest a stealth team with team leader plus markerlight and marker drone. That's two highly mobile markerlights with the stealth.

[Tynskel]

I like the sniper drone teams. They are reliable, high powered, long range shots. Plus you can split fire, if I remember correctly.

[Tynskel]

the flamer/plasma suits are interesting. They just take some practice to learn how to use. Basically, you hang back just far enough to be rapid firing the plasma. Then, at the last second, you hop in and roast with flamers and charge.

This list will be a little more useful against armies like Blood Angels. You have to be careful, though, those guys are wicked fast, and cut Tau to ribbons.

[Lemt]

I'm talking tomorrow with the guy that wants to start Tau, so I'll talk all this over with him, and tell you guys how the "meeting" goes.

[Commander Vimes]

Sniper Drones suck. It is not at all hard to get in close enough to see them reliably, and Ork pistols will usually finish off the squad. If you take one casualty you're testing leadership on a 7. Take four wounds at once, and you have a 50-50 chance the spotter dies and the team vanishes. Also, they don't contribute markerlights, they require them. The drones are BS3 with only one shot each. They need two markerlight hits to be anything close to reliable.

[BlindGunn]

Biggest problem with Sniper Drones is they take a Heavy slot.

We already have two excellent choices in Brodsides and Hammerheads - why would you replace one of those with Sniper Drones???

If you want a mobile Markerlight, the Skyray, but I think I would prefer the Stealth Suit squad mentioned previously. Same issue - Skyray uses up one of the valuable Heavy slots and Seeker Missiles don't seem to be as bad as they used to be...

[JxKxR]

Biggest problem with Sniper Drones is they take a Heavy slot.

We already have two excellent choices in Brodsides and Hammerheads - why would you replace one of those with Sniper Drones???

If you want a mobile Markerlight, the Skyray, but I think I would prefer the Stealth Suit squad mentioned previously. Same issue - Skyray uses up one of the valuable Heavy slots and Seeker Missiles don't seem to be as bad as they used to be...

I like seeker missiles but never have used the sky ray. I don't really unerstand what most people have against them. But then I play with a lot more fire warriors and have a markerlight in each squad. I have taken out more than a few dreadnaughts and flanking tanks with them.

[BlindGunn]

I like seeker missiles but never have used the sky ray. I don't really unerstand what most people have against them. But then I play with a lot more fire warriors and have a markerlight in each squad. I have taken out more than a few dreadnaughts and flanking tanks with them.
I tend to have more Firewarrior squads with Markerlights as well. They're great for calling in the Seekers.

I think the issue with Seekers is that they're 1-shot weapons and can make vehicles very expensive, very fast. I have used Seekers, but usually as Points fillers. Usually, add them to a Devilfish or (if I'm feeling extravigant) to a Piranha. In these situations, a Seeker or two isn't bad. Mostly because it is easier to get a flank shot with them this way.

the Problems with the Skyray are:
- the limited number (6 max) of Seekers
- it claims another Heavy Slot people would prefer the HammerHeads (either variant) or Broadsides in
- moving a Skyray up the flank is that much more difficult because your oppoent won't just LET you get that many missiles on a flank. A single Devilfish or Piranha might get away with getting that side or rear shot. A Skyray fully loaded...

The main advantage of the Skyray is you do get 2 moving marker lights in a heavily armoured shell. Some people make it work for them, but they seem to be few and far between.

I keep threatening to take one out for a spin myself...

[JxKxR]

I tend to have more Firewarrior squads with Markerlights as well. They're great for calling in the Seekers.

I think the issue with Seekers is that they're 1-shot weapons and can make vehicles very expensive, very fast. I have used Seekers, but usually as Points fillers. Usually, add them to a Devilfish or (if I'm feeling extravigant) to a Piranha. In these situations, a Seeker or two isn't bad. Mostly because it is easier to get a flank shot with them this way.

the Problems with the Skyray are:
- the limited number (6 max) of Seekers
- it claims another Heavy Slot people would prefer the HammerHeads (either variant) or Broadsides in
- moving a Skyray up the flank is that much more difficult because your oppoent won't just LET you get that many missiles on a flank. A single Devilfish or Piranha might get away with getting that side or rear shot. A Skyray fully loaded...

The main advantage of the Skyray is you do get 2 moving marker lights in a heavily armoured shell. Some people make it work for them, but they seem to be few and far between.

I keep threatening to take one out for a spin myself...


Yeah I use them on my one piranha with fusion blaster that I keep hidden behind terrain to quikly contest objectives at the end of the game.

Honestly I would really to try a skyray out. I would also like to play a tau army without any railguns and see if I could pull out a win. I also want to see if I could win without any battlesuits but I highly doubt any one could pull off a win that way.

[BlindGunn]

I have played without the railguns: Ion Cannon HammerHeads only. (I was mad at Railguns because I would miss, even with a markerlight on target - how bad is THAT!)

Unfortunately, I can't see Tau without Crisis suits in 5th. 4th you could have pulled it off, but not 5th. Firewarriors need the support. Unless Firewarriors get huge boost in capabilities in the next codex (something I can't conceive of), we will always need some support from Crisis suits.

[Fishboy]

I've always had trouble making a good list at 1500 points. For some reason, pushing out to 2K always gets me to a far more lethal list. Regardless, a few suggestions I've picked up:

Pathfinders: at 12 points each, pathfinders are incredibly worth it. The problem is, they have the overpriced 80 point devilfish requirement. So as long as you're paying the price for the devilfish, max out your pathfinders. At 1500 points, it's asking a lot to run two squads, but that's why I keep talking my friends into 2K games.

Remember the marker beacon on pathfinder devilfish. With this equipment, you can bullseye a deep strike just over half the time. Something to consider when facing armor, a STR 10 shot into an AV 14 is not as likely to penetrate as a STR 7 into an AV 10. Using that marker beacon, you can chance deep striking a team of crisis suits into a thin strip of open board behind an opponent's armor and their board edge. Can it go horribly wrong? Sure, but it can also pay huge benefits if it gives you access to places on the board your opponent isn't prepared to defend against.

Another thing I've had to spend a lot of time looking at is how to maximize what you get for the points you spend. One key example: Shield Drones cost you 15 points each. For that, they come with a 4+ invul, and an armor save of whatever unit has the drone controller. So, for those 15 points each, they can have a 3+ armor save if with an XV8, or if you get them on XV88s, for the same cost they get a 2+ armor save. For this reason, I never take Broadsides without shield drones, you just get so much more for the points. When a dreaded STR 8 or higher shot comes in (which would normally double out a suit), it goes right on the shield drone, and if it wasn't AP2 (hello, Leman Russ Battle Cannon which loves to reliably double out whole squads of XV8s) those hits all save on a 2+. My advice, XV88s draw all kinds of fire. Shield Drones make that unit very sticky, even just two.

Last item for now: kroot. The biggest issue you'll run into with them is they break and run easily. But really, for the points, they're still pretty damn good. And when you bring enough, you get a tremendous volume of attacks. One of my favorite units is the 200 point kroot mob - 16 kroot + shaper and 10 hounds. Their shooting attacks are STR 4, and within 12", you're doubling the number. And if someone assaults you, the hounds hit at I5, and then you can take all the I5 and 4 return wounds on them, so you still have all the kroot available to hit at I3. And to add to all this, they're scoring units if you can keep them around. Just tuck them into cover, and they're one of the few Tau units that are really worth the points you spend on them. At 1500 point lists, you're probably going to want to create smaller units, so just keep in mind that a 100 point unit of 10 kroot and 5 hounds will make a morale check if it suffers 4 losses in a single round of firing, and is rolling that against a 7. So keep 'em in cover, and don't be afraid to go to ground to keep them around.

I started playing 40K about a year ago, and have played only Tau until just a couple weekends ago. Good luck to your buddy, and here's hoping for an update sometime in 2012!