Is Warhammer 40K Balanced? Public thread for those not on the RSS feed chat sites.

[Daemonette666]

For those on this ste who refuse to join face book or any of the other chat sites in order to comment on the RSS feed, I have opened this thread here, as I sometimes want to add to the comments, but refuse to join a chat room environment.

Anyway a comment was made about there being 14 codexes of which 8 have been redesigned with 5th edition as their basis. Namely Orks, Chaos Daemons, Space marines, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Tyranids, and Dark Elves. With Grey Knights, and possibly Necrons coming out this year, and a second wave of dark Eldar releases along with the LOTR/WOTR, and Warhammer Fantasy releases, along with the annual Unique 40K expansion release, we will probably not be getting another release this year.

The hugely delayed Sisters of battle who have been rumoured and counter rumoured to be coming out, and at the same time cancelled dropped from the 40K world like the Arbites list, or the Cadians who were absorbed into the current IG codex, we may be losing them. So which armies are left to do then? Tau, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Eldar and Chaos Space marines. So we have 8 armies due for release and 8 released for 5th edition.

The Chaos Marines, Tau, Necrons (ignoring the C'Tan), Sister (if they ever get rereleased) , Black Templars (even with the eratta & FAQ updates) are severely underpowered or have limited mobility. The older codexes and in particular the Xenos codexes from pre-5th edition are very expensive to bring up to a suitable level to face off against current codex capabilities.

In particular, most xenos codexes pre-5th edition required that you buy grenades for the unit (not part of the units base cost). They have transports which have more upgrades , but the cost of upgrades is too much, and many are now unable to be used. The Renegade Imperial Guard have only been able to be used since Forge world released the Siege of Vraks Series of books because the "Lost and the Damned" 3rd edition codex was officially dropped. Chaos Space marine Codex has held its following because of die-hard loyalist chaos players refuse to get rid of their armies, and because we have modified our army lists so we have too many power units mixed with the minimum base units, or we stock up on a great deal of small basic units in rhinos, and chock up the force with summoned greater daemons, lesser daemons, obliterators, daemon princes, and other "Power units" (like Kharn) that actually have a chance of surviving in games against opponents using the more modern codex armies. Even then more than 2/3s of the games end up in losses or a lucky draw because I get second player and just get a unit onto an objective to either claim or contest it.

Eldar have a few tricks up their sleeves to reduce the effect of psychic abilities, such as forcing psykers to roll 3 D6, but those who automatically pass their psychic tests, ignore this. They also have quite a deal of fast transports and deep striking units, but they are very light on most weapon ranges, and their average armour value is bad. Their STR and TGH are weak. You have to be a very good general in order to use them effectively, and now it almost seems you have to be a genius and have luck on your side, as you do not get half the bonuses that the new codexes have to bring your reserves in where and when you want, or deny the enemy the ability to allow their reserves to arrive (such as Imperial Guard do).

The current codexes are power house codexes. Speed, elites or fast attack made into troops, more deep strikers who can arrive accurately, or assault on the turn they arrive, powerhouse characters, whose abilities and bonuses make armies almost unstoppable, even after they are killed off. Trends and changes that allow Space marines (ATSKNF rule) which will soon be given to Grey Knights) to avoid a lot of combat damage, or ignore some very nasty psychic attack abilities because characters can cause the army units to either pass or fail tests when they want to.

When the other 8 codexes are released, and maybe they release a Traitor Guard codex or allow the Forge World one to be legal for standard games, then we will see how balanced thing are.

I believe we will not see Sisters, Dark Angels, Black Templars and Tau till 2012, and then we will not see Eldar and Chaos Space Marines till 2013 , which should be about 6 months before the release of the NEW 6th Edition of 40K comes out.

Hopefully they at least give the Chaos Marines cheaper weapon options, and maybe give them better weapon options for their Havocs, making them worth while using. Drop Pods, Special Flanking rules for Bikers and Raptors would help, and some special characters from different famous legions such as Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors, that allow certain unit types to be troops, get tank hunter ability for their vehicles or havocs, get night vison, scout and infiltrate abilities for bikers, Furious charge and counter strike ability for using a special World Eaters or Word Beare'rs Character. Maybe the ablity to cancel out enemy psyker attacks or spells against units with the mark of Khorne and/or Tzeentch if you take a special character, or take a certain army standard, and so on.

Eldar could benefit from some of the new units coming out from Forge World, and maybe they could get some reduced costs for their vehicles.

Tau could also benefit with some changes, namely increased weapon ranges for their basic rifles, better APC options other than the standard Devil Fish. A special Repair unit from the Earth Caste, and more potent psychic abilities for their Etherials. Maybe a new ally race for them that fills the gap that Kroot and Vespids fail to fill. Namely the ability to soak up a great deal of damage and hold off the enemy while having a good armour save and invul save, 2-3 wounds and a toughness of 5 or more, and a str of 4 or 5. They might not have anything like decent ranged weaponry, but they could be kitted out by the Tau in much the same way as Ogryn are used by the Imperial Guard. They could also get a few special abilities to drop troops in, or flank troops around the enemy. Traditionally they are a stank and shoot army, with very little in close combat ability, but to make them that bit more effective, you need to be able to get out there and take objectives, and hold off the now super elite enemy assault troops in close combat.

Black Templars and Dark Angels will get decent updates, because they are imperial forces, so we can generally expect them to be super nasty in the same vein as Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Sisters if they come out, well I have so many things I would love to see for them. More weapon options, not just Melta, Bolter and Flamer based weaponry. Missile Launchers, lascannons, Autocannons, Plasma Guns/Cannons, Power Fists, A back up small arms weapon such as a bolt pistol, so they can shoot it and then assault, So many new vehicles are coming out that make their Melta weapons ineffective. Black Templars with their Blessed hull landraiders, the new Forge World Land raider, storm ravens and Necron Monoliths. They also have to face shooting and massed armoured armies like Imperial guard, and so they have to try and rush across the field while their enemy has the range to kill of their tanks before they finally get close enough to use their very expensive multi-meltas.

Well I am sure others will have their own ideas of what they want to see in the new codexes, when they finally come out, and I am sure others will disagree with me about many of the things I have said, but that is what these forums are here for. I am also sure many of the sites members will agree with me for the most part, so give you comments, and possibly suggest what you think is missing in your army. Just remember how your army was intended to be used/themed when GW originally designed it, and how its role may have changed through out the Millenniums, how they would have adapted to cope with new enemy threats, or to integrate new technologies develped, acquired or stolen from their foes.

[Bean]

40k isn't perfectly balanced. That said, it's not too far off. The top-end builds for the top-end armies tend to be pretty close together. Lower tier armies don't put out lists which are as strong, but their top-end lists aren't too far behind.

The assertion that it is balanced is asinine--it obviously isn't. The assertion that it's heavily unbalanced, with some armies having critical advantages over others is largely untrue as well, though--for the most part, the differences between top-end armies isn't that extreme between codices.

Of course, most codices allow you to field armies which are not anywhere near top-end, and it's easy to see how someone fielding a mediocre army from a mediocre codex could feel heavily outclassed by a very strong army from one of the stronger codices. That, though, is the fault of the player--not the company.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

Of course, most codices allow you to field armies which are not anywhere near top-end, and it's easy to see how someone fielding a mediocre army from a mediocre codex could feel heavily outclassed by a very strong army from one of the stronger codices. That, though, is the fault of the player--not the company.

you can say these words and still believe that 40K isnt balanced? really? I'm afraid that the minitru has gotten a hold of you somehow. The fact that there are units in codexes that are absolute ****, and the fact that there are codexes that have not been updated in YEARS (or the fact that a faq to update said codexes comes out 3-4 years later) is the prime example of "unbalanced."

People gripe that the BoLS crew force the flavor of the month onto the world, but Goatboy and other like minded gamers just find a way to render the fat and only leave the "best" choices. Why do you think you see tons and tons of MechIG/SpaceGoatImeanWolfAngels/Vulkanmarines pretty much dominate ?

A balanced game lets you build a list from ANYTHING in your codex and gives you a fighting chance. ANYTHING. I am biased, I recently started playing Warmachine and holy crap is that game balanced! Even when I have a hard time against Cryx, there are TONS of things at my disposal that I can fit into my list from the merc factions to help me patch any holes that I have. This is the sign of balance, to me.

[Bean]

you can say these words and still believe that 40K isnt balanced? really? I'm afraid that the minitru has gotten a hold of you somehow. The fact that there are units in codexes that are absolute ****, and the fact that there are codexes that have not been updated in YEARS (or the fact that a faq to update said codexes comes out 3-4 years later) is the prime example of "unbalanced."

People gripe that the BoLS crew force the flavor of the month onto the world, but Goatboy and other like minded gamers just find a way to render the fat and only leave the "best" choices. Why do you think you see tons and tons of MechIG/SpaceGoatImeanWolfAngels/Vulkanmarines pretty much dominate ?

A balanced game lets you build a list from ANYTHING in your codex and gives you a fighting chance. ANYTHING. I am biased, I recently started playing Warmachine and holy crap is that game balanced! Even when I have a hard time against Cryx, there are TONS of things at my disposal that I can fit into my list from the merc factions to help me patch any holes that I have. This is the sign of balance, to me.


So, you're saying that the game isn't balanced. That's what I said. Did you even read my post before you decided to start railing against it? You seem to be agreeing with me on pretty much every point.

That said, if you think Warmachine has good internal balance (in the sense that all options available to a particular army are equally good) then you probably don't know what you're talking about. There are plenty of crap options in Warmachine. (Though, to be fair, it was much worse in mark 1, mark 2 has made significant strides in the balance department).

[doom-kitten]

40k isn't balanced it's plain and simple and harping about it will never change that, I play sisters of battle and I don't find them lacking in anyway only thing that bothers me is the dedicated transport costs but I live with it and I have won games against many of these new shiny armies. Whining about balance is like complaining about rain it's gonna happen it's natural and yes it's not fun, well I find rain enjoyable but what are you goning to do about it? I intend to stick with my army if it gets booted fine oh well theres still people who'll let me play them, if it gets updated great that's awesome yay for me. It's a waste of time whining and cause more stress then something thats supposed to be fun should GW doesn't give a damn what we whine about so long as we shovel money on their plate, their a business and their going to do business it's a fact. And WarMachine isn't balanced but it's pretty close to the wire true theres loads of options that can fill in holes and gaps but most of the armies still have a little to much of this or not enough of this and theres many times I've found my warcaster and army purely out powered by the opponent most often against Cryx and Trollbloods.

[Denzark]

A balanced game lets you build a list from ANYTHING in your codex and gives you a fighting chance. ANYTHING. I am biased, I recently started playing Warmachine and holy crap is that game balanced! Even when I have a hard time against Cryx, there are TONS of things at my disposal that I can fit into my list from the merc factions to help me patch any holes that I have. This is the sign of balance, to me.

Balance isn't just about what your army list is allowed. Its about no one single nuance of the game taking precedence (a la 2ed psychic phase, 1st ed virus bombs). The lack of balance in 40K boils down to when an army list allows you to turn one part of the game on its head - most commonly in the newer codexes.

For me the key part of 40K is assault - the ability to do large amounts of wounds with no cover save, whilst keeping the attacking troops free from return fire when locked. Armies that can break the mold with furious charge, and hit and wound first particulalrly with no save power weapons, are deadly - the Sang Priests are breakers of balance for this (Note i do not say they can't be COUNTERED - merely the only way to BALANCE them is to have something else that gives your own troops FC and FNP.)

Also key is points cost - the wellspring from which all balance flows. This is the final arbiter of a fair line up - the same as a 10-pin or golf handicap. 2 people in pick up games with same points cost should have an equal chance with their armies, not countin individual experience. hence why people are so happy when BT or DA storm shields and smoke launchers get the upgrade fax - it makes it fairer, aka more balanced. It just happens that the older books points don't match current rules - not to say an individual still can't be effective, merely the amount of thiose more effective units seems to be less in an older codex.

If you can't trust the points you might as well not bother. This is why I approve of the reasoning between the FW and VDR points being more than the codexes, and also why I scorn homebrew rulesets - with the exception of a proven balanced set such as the old skool BoLS sets from the good old days.

[DarkLink]

@OP

The plural for codex is codices, not codexes. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plural+for+codex

[Daemonette666]

40k isn't balanced it's plain and simple and harping about it will never change that, I play sisters of battle and I don't find them lacking in anyway only thing that bothers me is the dedicated transport costs but I live with it and I have won games against many of these new shiny armies. Whining about balance is like complaining about rain it's gonna happen it's natural and yes it's not fun, well I find rain enjoyable but what are you goning to do about it? I intend to stick with my army if it gets booted fine oh well theres still people who'll let me play them, if it gets updated great that's awesome yay for me. It's a waste of time whining and cause more stress then something thats supposed to be fun should GW doesn't give a damn what we whine about so long as we shovel money on their plate, their a business and their going to do business it's a fact. And WarMachine isn't balanced but it's pretty close to the wire true theres loads of options that can fill in holes and gaps but most of the armies still have a little to much of this or not enough of this and theres many times I've found my warcaster and army purely out powered by the opponent most often against Cryx and Trollbloods.
Doom-Kitten I would play against your sisters, and I would let you have the grenade options for free , and have the cheaper point cost upgrades listed in the Forge World IA update.

My point is that the game has evolved, and GW has been slow or lax to get the old codexes up to date with the new trends. New technology in the form of weaponry, units special characters and vehicles have been added making the old lists fall greatly behind. What I am saying is GW should release more Eratta and FAQs to bring the old CODICES up to date (for the interim), so players can design balanced armies that can at least hold their ground.

I have tried both balanced and over powered Chaos Space Marine army lists for either one off games and campaign games, and the overpowered lists win out until the enemy finds its achilles heal and you lose big time. The balanced armies have a poorer showing overall since 2008, and you have to rely on boosting your army with named characters obliterators, or something you normally do not add except in the tooled up army lists.

I loved being able to theme my army around certain chaos power or legion, well not any more. Tactics of the individual aside ( because my tactics are generally fluid, flexible and able to cope with a lone enemy unit striking the rear of my army, or losing a nice unit that i was intending to cut the head of the enemy army with), the new CODICES have nasty rule additions, like units who deep strike + do not deviate + assault on the turn they deepstrike, and to top it off they get nasty anti-tank weapons or come equipped with power weapons.

I would like a temporary update for my favourite CODICE and others I play. Yes Sisters of Battle as well. I think their CODICE (no longer refer to it as a CODEX - thank you Darklink) is over priced for units, vehicles, and weaponry, Since they lost the allies option, they can not keep up with the rest.

I quite agree with Denzarks comments as well. Maybe GW can release a table/list that gives older CODICES that have not had an eratta giving them free grenades, smoke launchers, etc and allow them to take more units from one or more category than the FOC normally allow until the new CODICE comes out. Oh my that comment will ruffle a few feathers. But it is an option, as is allow the old CODICE player more points for the game to cover the cost of the more expensive vehicle, or unit upgrades, they have to pay points for that newer CODICE's have inbuilt or get cheaper.

[doom-kitten]

Battle sisters with grenades, yay XD. I never charge except with seraphim and they get them for free but it would be great to drop the rhinos points. Which IA book is the sisters in anyway be nice to get it and use my repenter for once.

[HsojVvad]

First of what is a RSS feed? I don't get how they work at all.

I play Dark Angels. Everything was suppose to be more blander, less complicate, which, Eldar and Chaos Space Marines followed. Low and behold, the SM players complained and cried, and GW did a 180. That is why codicies are unbalanced.

Another reason codicies are unbalanced is because GW wants to make sure that SM keep getting sold. So units like Tyranids don't get grenades while SM players get them for free now.

Once you understand and accept this, the anger goes away and the game or hobby actaully becomes fun again. :)

[Chuck777]

Not every unit in a Codex is designed for WAAC gamers, just like not every unit in a Codex is designed for Fluff gamers. Its like Magic the Gathering, the designers create cards to appeal to a wide swath of different player types. Just because you don't like a unit doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Having said that, there are some just plain bad units out there (like Pyrovores) who needed more refinement in the design process (He sounds awesome but in practice its lame!).

@The OP the thread title is misleading. People are going to read the title and equate it to the Balance Article on the main site. Your thread is more about Wishlisting and brainstorming than Balance.

[Daemonette666]

It is the IA 2 Space Marines and Inquisition update PDF Version 1.3. You should be able to find it on the Forgeworld site under downloads. The original IA book that showed them was IA 2 Space Marines and Inquisition.Rhinos are 35 points and get smoke launchers and searchlights free, and Repressor APCs cost 50 points.

As to the sisters with side arms to supliment their bolters, it would be good. Many times I have been on the receiving end of a charge where the enemy unit gets furious charge and all these other benefits because I had elected to rapid fire the enemy rather than charge them without shooting. A pistol would make my decision easier, as I wold prefer to charge and get the extra attack and deny the enemy the bonuses they want.

Answering HsojVvad's question, RSS feed is a chat feedback option that is available on this site for those who have facebook or some other IRC/ICQ system. You need to register for the service, and then a topic forum is posted by one of the site Gurus like Goatboy or someoneelse, and then everyone discusses, chats about it in realtime.

I still do not like GWs attitude towards Xenos and Heretic forces, forcing them to pay extra or not allowing them defensive or assault grenades for free. Remember Eldar and Tau are suppose to be so much more advanced than the Imperium because the Imperium refuses to integrate new technology, or xenos technology, just in case it might corrupt their forces. It takes the imperium so long to integrate new tech into its forces, that tanks like the LR crusader/redeemer, Assault cannon, etc take thousands of years to be classified as "for general distributuon to Space marine forces".

Tyranids do get an enhancent that acts as frag grenades, but you still have to pay foir it. it should be free, or come standard, and you can then swap or up grade it from there.

I am sorry GW, but the anti- Xenos and Chaos attitude is just not on. Space Marines will always be popular, but if you limit the options or make it more expensive to equip non Imperium armies, then people will stop buying them, and you may be forced to drop them, and not release a new CODICE for theat race/Army. Low sales is usually because an army is not as good as it once used to be, or not supported anymore.

[Astral Platypus]

I've haven't really found many of the xenos models very aesthetically pleasing. Some of the more recent releases (Dark Eldar) have improved dramatically, but there are just so many ugly models for xenos; Eldar jetbikes looking like sex toys comes to mind. Is it possible a lot of people feel the same way I do about it, hence the allegedly poor sales for said armies?

[HsojVvad]

I am sorry GW, but the anti- Xenos and Chaos attitude is just not on. Space Marines will always be popular, but if you limit the options or make it more expensive to equip non Imperium armies, then people will stop buying them, and you may be forced to drop them, and not release a new CODICE for theat race/Army. Low sales is usually because an army is not as good as it once used to be, or not supported anymore.

Again, just learn to except it, you will become a better person for it. I became a miserable perosn thinking life is unfair, GW sucks, blah blah blah, and all it did was make me a worse person, while GW still collected thier millions.

They are doing something right, since they are still making millions. Don't dwell on it, and become a miserable person. There is nothing we can do unless you are going to buy all the stocks and then tell the writers what to do.

SM will always be more stronger than everyone else. They will get things for free. Remember when everyone had different movement stats? What happened? SM got a free buff to move 6" per turn instead of 4". Remember when people with Fleet could run instead of shoot? SM got them for free now in 5th edtion. Now SM get free grenades. Learn to deal with it. 6th Edtion will be coming soon. SM will be getting another buff or something easier for them. Then when thier codex comes out, they will have something free as well again.

GW wants the SM to be sold. The exeno armies don't give them the money. So why would they nerf the marines, and buff the Exenos? Exeno minis will not be sold like SM would, so GW doesn't want to loose sales. So think. How can you sell more SM when everyone has them? Change the rules and make everything WYSIWYG and buff the rules so people will not complain they have to get more SM.

Once you can learn to deal with this, you will become a better person and not so bitter. Otherwise you will have to quit to become a better person so you don't dwell on it.

It's either accept it or don't. Deal with the things you can change, and learn to accept what you can't change. Other than that, play or don't play. Be miserable, like I was, or shrug it off like I do now and try to have fun.

[Daemonette666]

Again, just learn to except it, you will become a better person for it. I became a miserable perosn thinking life is unfair, GW sucks, blah blah blah, and all it did was make me a worse person, while GW still collected thier millions.

They are doing something right, since they are still making millions. Don't dwell on it, and become a miserable person. There is nothing we can do unless you are going to buy all the stocks and then tell the writers what to do.

SM will always be more stronger than everyone else. They will get things for free. Remember when everyone had different movement stats? What happened? SM got a free buff to move 6" per turn instead of 4". Remember when people with Fleet could run instead of shoot? SM got them for free now in 5th edtion. Now SM get free grenades. Learn to deal with it. 6th Edtion will be coming soon. SM will be getting another buff or something easier for them. Then when thier codex comes out, they will have something free as well again.

GW wants the SM to be sold. The exeno armies don't give them the money. So why would they nerf the marines, and buff the Exenos? Exeno minis will not be sold like SM would, so GW doesn't want to loose sales. So think. How can you sell more SM when everyone has them? Change the rules and make everything WYSIWYG and buff the rules so people will not complain they have to get more SM.

Once you can learn to deal with this, you will become a better person and not so bitter. Otherwise you will have to quit to become a better person so you don't dwell on it.

It's either accept it or don't. Deal with the things you can change, and learn to accept what you can't change. Other than that, play or don't play. Be miserable, like I was, or shrug it off like I do now and try to have fun.
That is such a lame attitude. Just accept when someone makes things difficult - not likely. It is our right to complain when things are unfair, unbalanced, and to voice our opposition to it.

Xenos are unpopular, why? Because they have not been marketed correctly, because they have very poor rules, army list options, or expensive units that are not as good as the favourite armies units. It is only human nature to avoid the armies that have bad or weak rules and options.

If we do not voice our opinions, then GW will not know what we want. The armies we love to collect and play will just wither and die off, and I suppose you will probably say something like "C'est La Vie" and accept when an army that has been going since 2nd edition is written out of the 40K time line. Well I do not accept that.

GW has to bend to popular opinion like every other manufacturer, and if everyone voiced their disapproval of the anti- Xenos/ Chaos trend within 40K, then they will have to face the fact that people will stop buying 40K and they will lose sales. Sure it will not happen if everyone has the same lax attitude you have, and you have a Dark Angels army so you do not care, your new CODICE will have all the special units, characters and groovy things the current 5th edition marine CODICES have.

Try dropping your Dark Angels army and using an old 3rd or 4th edition Xenos army CODICE like Tau or Eldar. Then tell me you can have a game and not feel you are outmatched before you even start the game.

[Chuck777]

Space Marines are literally subsidizing everything else the company does. So yes, GW will ALWAYS favor Marines over Xenos, ALWAYS.

You can complain about it all you want but it won't change the facts. GW is not in the business of making a balanced game. They have said time and again that they are a model company first and foremost. The game is there solely to push more models. Xenos armies are created for the singular purpose of providing unique looking opponents for Space Marine players to defeat. Xenos armies are to, as far as GW is concerned, provide enough of a challenge to the Marine players to keep them entertained but not quite enough of a challenge claim victory.

As a side note, the only reason the Imperial Guard were given such a nice codex was solely because GW could literally smell the money they'd make by forcing every IG player to pay 700+ dollars for an army. This formula cannot be easily co-opted and used to sell other non-marine armies due to the fact that none of the fluff for those armies was truly dedicated, quite as fully, to both hordes of models AND tanks.

If you want GW to change their ways, then you have to knock them off their high horse. The only way to do that is to get people to play a different, non-GW wargame (like Warmahordes). If enough people jump ship and sales drop, then GW will be forced to readjust their policies. Until that day, accept the facts as they are and enjoy playing the game for what it is - a game.

[Daemonette666]

Space Marines are literally subsidizing everything else the company does. So yes, GW will ALWAYS favor Marines over Xenos, ALWAYS.

You can complain about it all you want but it won't change the facts. GW is not in the business of making a balanced game. They have said time and again that they are a model company first and foremost. The game is there solely to push more models. Xenos armies are created for the singular purpose of providing unique looking opponents for Space Marine players to defeat. Xenos armies are to, as far as GW is concerned, provide enough of a challenge to the Marine players to keep them entertained but not quite enough of a challenge claim victory.

As a side note, the only reason the Imperial Guard were given such a nice codex was solely because GW could literally smell the money they'd make by forcing every IG player to pay 700+ dollars for an army. This formula cannot be easily co-opted and used to sell other non-marine armies due to the fact that none of the fluff for those armies was truly dedicated, quite as fully, to both hordes of models AND tanks.

If you want GW to change their ways, then you have to knock them off their high horse. The only way to do that is to get people to play a different, non-GW wargame (like Warmahordes). If enough people jump ship and sales drop, then GW will be forced to readjust their policies. Until that day, accept the facts as they are and enjoy playing the game for what it is - a game.
No wonder I dropped the whole GW thing back in 1995. Sold or swapped 15,000 Epic minis, 2500 40K mini, and 4500 Fantasy Minis. I went into the best gaming system I was playing and stuck with it until a friend got me to buy some Chaos MArines back in Dec 2006.

I prefer Battletech any day. With the new tables and Battlevalue II system everything is balanced, and if you include elite pilots, you get less forces at your disposal, higher technology, again less points to spend on your force. Also you can theme the army to which ever House, Clan or periphery state you want to use.

Now that in the current editon with all the technology available to the inner sphere now is a well balanced game.

If GW want to get more miniature sales, they should invest a little more time and money creating updated cocices for the outdated armies and making more plastic kits to replace the old metal miniatures. People are getting frustrated with the long wait in having their armies updated.

I might have to use the Blood Angels codex and allow the troops to have noise weapons so I can use my Emperor's Children army to its full effect. I can add spikey bits and chaos symbols to the Storm raven, and have sanguinary guard with Chaos Heads Torsos and put doom sirend on the top of their wing/jump packs.

I know a few people who would argue I can not do that when I face off against their Blood Angel or Space Wolf Armies. If the game is rigged to make the Space marines and IG the best armies in the game, then I will just have to use their lists and corrupt them with a few Chaos weapons, but the same characters, and special rules.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Who's gonna be the douchebag to tell Daemonette666 about the whole singular/plural thing...? I don't want to be that douchebag...

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

It isn't balanced. There's been a guy using a Mech IG parking lot list that hasn't been beaten for three years at my club. Best I've done against him is draw. You just can't get enough anti-tank against him, there's so many. This is clearly ridiculous. It is broken IN MY OPINION when you have an army that can have a unit of ten men that cost 50 points running about in a 50 point transport that can shoot down my Raiders, disembark and then take out my Kabalites with lasgun fire thanks to 'orders' which give them an extra shot each. And he has about ten of these units. It's just a joke.

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
Warhammer 40k is not, and has NEVER been developed for ballanced competative play.*
*Any allowed selection from the army composition lists , to the same points values, has an equal chance of winning.

The 40k rule set is not written to allow easy comparison of units in game effects.
It uses mutliple mechanics and resolution methods for the same interaction across different unit types.

Its prime focus is to promote the latest minature releases,and its only the skill of the game devs at GW towers that stops 40k and WHFB sliding into the levels of imballance that would render the games nearly
unplayable...:eek:

GW plc want the rules and codex books focusing on thier 'prime demoghraphic'.
'Minature collectors' and 'kiddies' that think the rules are not all that important...:eek:

I belive writing rule sets for the easiest to please,(people who dont think the rules are important,) rather than the widest user group (gamers of all types) is a bit self defeating, and short sighted.

No wonder GW plc's sales volumes are dropping....

TTFN

[HsojVvad]

Ah Battletech, just getting back into that. What a great system. Now that is a perfect example. Catalyst, who know makes the rules for Battletech, is a rules company. That is why the minitures are ugly. They don't sell them, IWM does. The rules for Battletech haven't changed almost in 27 years. Why? Because they are a rules company and the rules are great so they sell fluff and stories.

Games Workshop on the other hand, sell minitures and makes rules to go with them. How do you keep selling minitures? By changing the rules. How many minitures does IWM sell? Not many since once you buy them, you don't need anything else. Catalyst is fine with proxies, they even give you paper cut outs to use if you don't want to use minis. How does Catalyst make thier money? Stories, Fluff. They have so many source books, so many stories and fluff out there. How much fluff is out there for 40K? Not many. Everything is recyleced and regurgitated. It's the same thing over and over and over and over again for the last 20+ years.

GW on the other hand want you to keep buying mins. That is why they seem to dispise vetrans now. They don't buy anything new. Either they have it all or buy it else where used. This is why GW keep re inventing the rules, or I should be saying "tweaking" the rules. It sells minitures.

40K universe is stale. It doesn't advance. We can alsmos say the 40 anniversary edtion of 40K will be the same and not much will change. Oh a page or two of extra fluff but that's it. Compared to the Battletech universe, it is so completely different. When I came back, I am shocked so much has changed. I got stuck in the GW mentality where nothing changes everything is always the same. Once I have discovered Battletech that is when I realized what I have become, and perosn who cranky, and complained about everthing. I was miserable. This is who you are becoming. No matter what anyone says, what is out of your mouth? "I don't have to accept anything". You are sounding like an alcholic who will not accept they have a problem. You are becomeing that person right now.

If you don't want to accept it, then you don't. I am telling you rignt now, you are sounding like me a few years ago, and you are going to be a mizerable person.

It's only a game. It's a game played with toy soldiers. Plastic toy soldiers on the most part. To be so upset at a game of plasitc toy soldiers is assnine. Again if you don't want to accept it, fine, become a bitter old or young person. Don't take our advice. Just reading your comments at people what they tell youi, I see you are becoming a person nobody wants to play with. Yes this is the interent, but you are sounding like a person who is mizerable and very unhappy. I am trying to help you from my experiance. I am glad, I changed, because now I found the "fun" in the hobby again which before I found was so unfair, and stupid and what ever else you want to call it.

It is what it is. You want to chagne it, then buy all the shares, tell the writers to change the rules, and then loose all that money. You don't want to accept it, then change it. If you are not going to buy the company, there there is nothing you can do to change it.

Here is a perfect poem. It doesn't matter if you are religious or believe in god at all.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

This is only the begining of the poem, I will not put in the rest. So accept what you can't change. If you do not accept it, then quit. You want to come back you have no choice but to accept it unless you are not going to play any Space Marine Player. Or buy GW like I have suggested before.

The courage to change the things you can is You. Accept to play those SM players who have an easier way to win. It's a plastic toy soldier game after all. Do you really need to win at toy soldiers? The wisom comes in knowing the difference. Once you can see GW is a miniture comapny while someone like Catalyst is a rules comapny, you will see why things are different and the way they are.

I find it so funny, that you gave up on 40K but now you are back because someone bought in a Chaos army. How does anyone "get" you to buy something that you know is POS in your own eyes? If you were having so much fun with something why stop and play something else you know is not that good and you gave up on it the first time?

And now you want to complain about it? It's your decision. Like it or not you HAVE to ACCEPT IT in order to play with it. Again, unless you are going to buy GW or not play any SM or IG, you will have to accept it.

If you wisdom is so correct, how come Catalyst and IWM is not on the same scale as GW? How come GW even though they are still loosing Millions of dollars, they are still ahead of everyone. They are still the NUMBER ONE miniture company out there.

Agian, for your own sake, accept it, otherwise you will just be a miserable person for the rest of your life.

Accept it or don't. That is your choice. You don't want to take our words and tell us our opnions don't matter, then why did you make the post in the first place?

I said my peace, you don't have to agree with it, but I feel sorry for you now.

[Daemonette666]

Well I feel sorry for you as well. Calling someone a miserable old alcoholic , now that is low. I am not nor ever expect to be an alcoholic. The last drink of alcohol I had was 1 glass at Christmas.

I can choose to ignore your "just accept it" defeatist attitude. I am a wargamer. I love well balanced games where you get your head around tactics, and have a good time.

Lately with 40K, it is like sending an under 10's girls rugby team against the All Blacks and expecting to have fun and not get roughed up too much. Just to sell tickets. That is a better analogy than a miserable old drunk.

As to Battletech it is a far better game - far better. The rules have been tweaked a little - mainly with the rules being reworded to make them clearer. Some new weapons have been added as well, as the Word of Blake forces. So the miniatures are only available from Ralpartha Europe and Iron Wind Metals, They are good looking miniatures, I know I have hundreds of them painted in my armies. The time line has changed with the Clans, the Lyran Davion Civil War, The Word of Blake Jihad, and then the fall of the new Terran Hegmony (Dark Age). Life changes, the whole world does. I suppose you would like it if we were still in the Victorian era with ot even in the Middle Ages, and nothing ever changed.

40K has changed. The Squats were dropped, 3 races have been added over the last 20 years- Tau, Necrons and Tyranids. Sisters and Grey Knights were not originally oart of the first edition of 40K, we had Gustodes and Sisters of Silence, Assassins had their onw small army list, as did Harlequins. 40 K does change, Its time line also changes, Yes tau and Tyranids, and bye-bye Squats and Zoats.

For the most mpart, I am happy with my life, and when I complain about one silly company playing up making one group of armies more powerful than the rest, just to get miniature sales of their pet Army increased, I get dies hard loyalist imperial players telling me to just accept it you angry old drunk. That is really charming HSojVvad. I will accept that you are a dark angels player who play imperia super armiesl. I will also accept that nearly everyone I have played against has found me to be a charming and reasonable player, who they enjoy playing against.

Just remember Veterans are the back bone of wargaming community, and it is they who pass on their tactics, painting skills, and love of the Hobby. So GW should treasure them, not despise them. And like ot or not I "DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT".

[HsojVvad]

I am sorry, I didn't mean to call you an alcoholic, I ment like an alcoholic who will not admit he has a problem. Very poor choise of words I applogize there.

I have been spoiled by GW hight quality towards mins, and wish the Battletech minis were just as nice. It's a shame they are not. Some are good looking though. Yes Battletech is such a far better game, almost any game that is not GW is a better game, because they focus on rules.

Again, with my poor choic of words, i know you don't have to accept it, but I would find you would enjoy the game more if you did. Maybe it is the way I see yoiu writing your words, I said the same things, and like you find the game not fun anymore.

Again, I am sorry, I didn't mean to offend, and again, I did not mean you were an alcholic at all. Hopefully you can accept my apology.

I do understand where you are coming from. I just wish I could use my more eloquently.

[Daemonette666]

Okay I accept your apology, it just sounded like you were belittling me as a person,just like my vilificatin councellor in the Regular Army did when he told me I had to be the Grey person and accept that men behave like sex mad pigs sometimes. I was harrassed by a superior and his friends because I refused his unwanted personal attention, and could never get deployments ot courses because of it. Ever since then when anyone tells me to just accept it and do not make waves, it make me cringe.

I understand GW releases its miniatures and army lists to make profits, and it I also know it is unfair and they are pro Imperium. I just like to voice my frustration at the poor state of things in 40K, so that GW knows I and others want them to hurry up getting new army lists for races like Tau, Necrons, Chaos Marines and Eldar, etc, so we can get some new minaturesi, and also get some new kick-**s rules to meat the Imperial scum head on.

[doom-kitten]

Wow... if I ever need a counselor or shrink I now know where to look. XD That was an intense read.

[HsojVvad]

No belittling intended. That has been done to me almost all my life, I know what it's like and would never want to do that to someone else.

Yeah I use to complaing about how unfair Dark Angels were, and then the Space Marine codex came out, and I was so miserable I just complained complained complained. then the same thing happened to Tyranids.

It is unfair, would be nice if it wasn't so. It would be nice to see non Imperium vs non Imperium but sadly that can only happen with Tyranids vs Dark Eldar since the other codicies haven't been updated yet.

[Daemonette666]

You could try using any combinatoin of Tau, Eldar or Necrons. They would all be equally out of date and therefore equally as unbalanced. LOL

[HsojVvad]

What is an RSS feed? How do you use it?

[Necron2.0]

The rules are perfectly balanced, and I can prove it:

http://members.cox.net/necron2.0/img/Balance001.jpg

And let me say, in a world teaming with smart***es, I'm a little disappointed that no one beat me to this.

+++++++++++++


All rules systems are broken in one form or another. As thinking people, we must be smarter than the rules. If your club as a whole decides that a codex or an army is too powerful, either assess them a point penalty or give their opponent a point bonus. Not every army needs to be exactly equal in points, because points are abstract concepts, and not always reflective of reality. Always remember, all rules are merely guidelines. Be better, smarter than that.

[L192837465]

The rules are perfectly balanced, and I can prove it:

http://members.cox.net/necron2.0/img/Balance001.jpg





That is so awesome. Props. I give you 50 internets.

[HsojVvad]

If the rules are so balanceced, why do you need the books on the bottom to keep the book up straight? It just goes to show they are not really balanced without any "help". :p

[Brass Scorpion]

Ah Battletech, just getting back into that. What a great system.New Battletech Starter set on the way. Link. (http://battletech.catalystgamelabs.com/2011/02/26/25th-introductory-box-set-street-date-also-available-for-pre-order/)

Are the rules to 40K balanced? About as well as the cheap, commonly available dice most of us are using. Which is to say, sort of, but not exactly. It's not an exact science is it? And the play balance for some armies is tilted up or down depending on the points level, adding to variables involved.

[Daemonette666]

I thought I replied to this yesterday. Well here is what I thought I posted in reply.

I have ordered a copy of it at my local gaming shop along with another person. He who is starting to get back into Battletech after a few years, and has about 350 miniatures. I have a decent collection of just over 1000 miniatures, and about 1/3 are painted.

He said he might play a few games once he gets some more time between work, getting his Brettonian army ready for a competition in April, his Apocalypse wargaming, and his Flames of War Brittish Army, Oh and sleep that is.

I have a decent Apocalypse army painted up with 3 super heavies ready to go, and lots troops and super heavies still to be painted up. There is a picture of the 5000 point Slaanesh based army I brought to the last Apoc match at my local store - goto www.thehallofheroes.com.au, look in the gallery and check out the Heretic and Xenos Reinforcements picture. Most of them are mine. My Children of the Flesh Army is painted in Turquoise, Gold, Metallic Red, and either pink or metallic Purple. They look good.

Well that is what I wanted to say yesterday.

[HsojVvad]

New Battletech Starter set on the way. Link. (http://battletech.catalystgamelabs.com/2011/02/26/25th-introductory-box-set-street-date-also-available-for-pre-order/)

Are the rules to 40K balanced? About as well as the cheap, commonly available dice most of us are using. Which is to say, sort of, but not exactly. It's not an exact science is it? And the play balance for some armies is tilted up or down depending on the points level, adding to variables involved.

Yes I am looking forward to this. I just hoope I can get a copy. Right now you can get the rules for free anyways right now on the Catalyst websites. It iwll be nice not to buy everything seperately, so having maps and what not will be great again. I think the only thing we need is dice.

[Daemonette666]

Yes I am looking forward to this. I just hoope I can get a copy. Right now you can get the rules for free anyways right now on the Catalyst websites. It iwll be nice not to buy everything seperately, so having maps and what not will be great again. I think the only thing we need is dice.
I am buying it for the Miniatures, and the rules to check and see if they are differnt from the Total War Rule book I have. As for the Maps, I have 2 of each mapset, and another for the Solaris VII Supliment, which can be really dangerous and tricky to navigate around with the rules for the individual arenas.

I had a game 2750 points against a veteran Black Templars gamer. Anhillation and table quarters. He used the new rules for Storm Shields and it made it so tough to get rid of one unit of Terminators, and one model held up a unit of 6 noise marines for 2 turns by himself after the rest of his unit was killed.

It was a good game, and in turn 4 he led by 3 kill points, the next turn we were even, and in the last turn I led by 2 kill points. He kept hiding the last model or keeping it out of ramge of my troops.

If it were not for Kharn, and the Summoned Greater Daemon (that he killed my concentrating fire), I would have lost the game. He still had a Landraider crusader going at the end of the Game which annoyed me because I could not do more than immobalise it and destroy 2 weapons. LOL He had the same problems with my landraider until the last turn when he destroyed it in close combat with a Chaplain with power fist and furious charge, and a terminator with chain fist. They died at Kharns hands, and I had the worst dice rolling luck for every turn except the last one.

[Ro'jero]

That is such a lame attitude. Just accept when someone makes things difficult - not likely. It is our right to complain when things are unfair, unbalanced, and to voice our opposition to it.

Xenos are unpopular, why? Because they have not been marketed correctly, because they have very poor rules, army list options, or expensive units that are not as good as the favourite armies units. It is only human nature to avoid the armies that have bad or weak rules and options.

If we do not voice our opinions, then GW will not know what we want. The armies we love to collect and play will just wither and die off, and I suppose you will probably say something like "C'est La Vie" and accept when an army that has been going since 2nd edition is written out of the 40K time line. Well I do not accept that.

GW has to bend to popular opinion like every other manufacturer, and if everyone voiced their disapproval of the anti- Xenos/ Chaos trend within 40K, then they will have to face the fact that people will stop buying 40K and they will lose sales. Sure it will not happen if everyone has the same lax attitude you have, and you have a Dark Angels army so you do not care, your new CODICE will have all the special units, characters and groovy things the current 5th edition marine CODICES have.

Try dropping your Dark Angels army and using an old 3rd or 4th edition Xenos army CODICE like Tau or Eldar. Then tell me you can have a game and not feel you are outmatched before you even start the game.

I agree with this. I have been playing war games since the 1970's when I was 8 years old and played many an Avalon Hill game. When I was in high school I played Battletech and Rogue Trader (Later to be 40k). As a consumer, your darn right I have the right to complain. You know why? It's my freaking money!!!! They want it? (GW) They better listen. Look peeps, I play quite a few armies, and now settled on Eldar/Dark Eldar. One thing I discovered. There are other systems, if you like Warmachine, play it. If you like 40k, play it. But if you prefer a game system, and have an opinion you have the right to say, something that affects your hobby. Especially if your paying for it.