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Red__Thirst
09-01-2009, 05:14 AM
This is my third attempt at writing this, so I'll cull it down to the basics incase, for whatever reason, my browser decides to SNAFU again.

Looking at the upcoming space wolf codex has me quite excited, and I'm enjoying seeing all the new toys and bits coming forth in the newest (and long overdue) incarnation of the Space Wolfs rules.

This has me wondering what might happen with the future of the Blood Angels, and I thought I'd list some of my own speculation in an effort to see what others thought, or wanted to add. Some of these are blind hope, I'll go ahead and warn you.

- Contuinuation of the up-cost of units to pay for death company. I agree with how it's being done now, and think it should remain this way.

- Maintaining the use of buying squads in 5 or 10 man squads, and only allowing access to heavy/special weapons if 10 models are purchased. I love the concept of Combat Squads.

- Scout Squads becoming both an Elite, and a Troops choice, with the elite versions costing more and having more options (Meltabombs, the ability to re-roll an outflank roll perhaps) To represent the blood angel scouts being both initiate marines, as well as veteran close combat marines who prefer to sneak rather than fly.

- Continuation of the use of assault marines as troops. I personally don't like this little rules change, but also feel it's appropriate at the same time. I like tactical squads though, so I suppose that's partially my bias.

- Veteran Assault Squads becoming something akin to Vanguard, but perhaps with more options or slightly tweaked rules (Furious charge?)

- Sternguard present in the codex? Not sure on that one.

- Furioso Dreadnoughts becoming AV 13, gaining some iron clad-esque upgrades perhaps? Also gain the ability to become Death Company Dreads. No Venerable Death Company Dreads though, tha'd be nutty.

- New Blood Angels only Land Raider variant with all assault cannons? Pure speculation/wishful thinking on that front.

- Characters! What will be done with them? Logan Grimnar seems to be becoming a master tactician akin to Creed, so what does this bode for Dante, the oldest living space marine outside of a Dreadnought? No telling how many battles he's witnessed, fought in and led. Mephiston will probably remain a monster, hopefully with some form of invulnerable save now (Maybe..) and a slew of new psyker powers. Corbulo will hopefully remain a support character as he is now, giving an area effect bonus to squads around him. What else might we expect on this front?

- Death Company remaining as they are I expect. They're mighty killy in their present form.

- Overcharged engines remaining, probably working as they do now. I like their unpredictability and think they finally did them right in the PDF codex out now. Also like that the Baal pred has them, hope that remains that way.

That's all I've got for now. Anyone else have any thoughts they'd like to share? I'd love to hear what people have to say on this front.

Thanks for reading and/or replying in advance! Take care everyone.

-Red__Thirst-

wittdooley
09-01-2009, 09:46 AM
Agreed on most of your points.

First, both Dante AND Mephiston need to have Eternal Warrior, not just an invuln save (though that would be nice). Dante is the oldest living SM that we know of, and Mephiston survived for a week buried underground in the throws of the red thirst....please, these two are not going quietly.

I think the BAs need to have assault marines as an option for troops choice. It only makes sense. If you have to pair them with a character to do so, fine, but it needs to happen.

Furiouso Dred just needs to come out in plastic. They have the bits not with the IC. release the damned thing already.

RogueMarine
09-01-2009, 09:54 AM
I agree with some of your points...#1 thing is the BA's need to be brought in line with the SM book, and then add in extras for the death company and such. But i think every marine army needs to have this happen.

as for giving dante and mephiston eternal warrior, while i agree that in their fluff it makes sense, you wouldn't want to see that ability handed out willy nilly

oni
09-01-2009, 10:35 AM
I speculate they will get their own printed codex again and that the new Space Hulk terminators will be released in a kit to usher it in.

CaptainLoken
09-01-2009, 12:16 PM
I actually really like the new Blood Angels codex. Sure, it was very limited compared to other Space Marines, but it was full of cool options. EXPENSIVE options, but cool none the less. Dark Angels let you run Death Wing, Black Templars let you run horde Marines, and Codex Marines let you run everything in between. What I love about the Blood Angels is the Death Company, Veteran Assault Marines, and Assault Marines as troops. Using the Codex, you can do an entirely air born Space Marine force.

Sure, it is a one trick pony, but man, what a fun pony to ride.

darth_papi76
09-01-2009, 12:32 PM
After seeing the SH Termies, I'm excited to see what a new plastic Death Company kit might look like.

melloracer
09-01-2009, 12:44 PM
I like some of the things with the PDF BA codex...what really needs to happen is an update in points costs. BA models are terribly expensive points-wise. I know it includes the cost for DC...but even with that it is still over-costed. Also they need to bring the wargear in line with the current space marine codex. Mephiston either needs an invuln save or eternal warrior...not both.

Joeker
09-01-2009, 12:50 PM
I'd personally be pretty happy with C:SM + death company, RAS troops, and Jump Command Squads perhaps through special character purchases (ie Lemartes == DC, and JP Captain == Jump troops and Jump command squad). Moving Vanguard to Elites to reflect VAS is a possibility too

Shrew
09-01-2009, 01:00 PM
I would just like a new codex, the white dwarf is alright, but its not holding up at all to the newer books.

dunedon
09-01-2009, 01:19 PM
I would just like a new codex, the white dwarf is alright, but its not holding up at all to the newer books.

I think that could be said for any codex (book or otherwise) that hasn't been re-released especially for 5th ed.

I'm hoping that the BA rules get tightened up in a new book, and that some of the consistancy and power that seems to be in the new codexes gets inserted ... without completely gutting the fluff and uinqueness that makes BA a theme army to choose. DA seems to be worse off in that respect every new codex, one can only hope their new codes (some century) gives back some of the lost luster.

teddybear9152
09-01-2009, 01:22 PM
I must admit I quite like the idea of playing BA, but I'm not sure the codex suites my playing style. But the points you have suggested for the codex would make it more my thing :0)

EmperorEternalXIX
09-01-2009, 01:26 PM
as for giving dante and mephiston eternal warrior, while i agree that in their fluff it makes sense, you wouldn't want to see that ability handed out willy nilly While I might be inclined to agree with you, the fact that the only time I've ever used my Librarian's force weapon is against other SM armies might tell you something about that rules' propagation.

Mephiston needs it. Dante is almost always going to be within a squad anyway for his bonus.

Jackmojo
09-01-2009, 02:35 PM
- Contuinuation of the up-cost of units to pay for death company. I agree with how it's being done now, and think it should remain this way.

I'd rather see them turned back into a special retinue for Chaplains and Sanguinary High Priests, as one of the things I like in the newest army books is the end of compulsory unit choices. This frees folks up in smaller points games to not use them and allows you to focus on them as much or as little as you like.


- Maintaining the use of buying squads in 5 or 10 man squads, and only allowing access to heavy/special weapons if 10 models are purchased. I love the concept of Combat Squads.

Sounds good to me.



- Scout Squads becoming both an Elite, and a Troops choice, with the elite versions costing more and having more options (Meltabombs, the ability to re-roll an outflank roll perhaps) To represent the blood angel scouts being both initiate marines, as well as veteran close combat marines who prefer to sneak rather than fly.

I'd rather see them just as troops, having them identical to normal marine scouts would be fine by me. their are enough elite choices to choose from as it is and there isn't any classic BA fluff to support elite scouts (like there is for Space Wolves).


- Continuation of the use of assault marines as troops. I personally don't like this little rules change, but also feel it's appropriate at the same time. I like tactical squads though, so I suppose that's partially my bias.

Agreed, this also (if the Death company stops being compulsory) lets the army book be a useful base for Assault company lists and the like that are not strictly BA and successors. Another option I'd be interested in seeing is a Kantor like Assaults/Vanguards as scoring units.


- Veteran Assault Squads becoming something akin to Vanguard, but perhaps with more options or slightly tweaked rules (Furious charge?)

As long as they fix the points so we actually want to use them ;)


- Sternguard present in the codex? Not sure on that one.

If not it might be nice to see another unit get access to some similar options, perhaps BA terminators with special ammo instead...that way we can see more of the Stormbolter equipped terminators instead of the current prevalence of Assault Terminators.


- Furioso Dreadnoughts becoming AV 13, gaining some iron clad-esque upgrades perhaps? Also gain the ability to become Death Company Dreads. No Venerable Death Company Dreads though, tha'd be nutty.

the Ironclad does everything I want a Furioso to do, so all they really need to do is give it the Veteran option and I'd be happy. Having Moriar back as a special unit instead of generic DC dreadnoughts would be nice as well.


- New Blood Angels only Land Raider variant with all assault cannons? Pure speculation/wishful thinking on that front.

I believe that is coming for the SW instead...but perhaps the Ba will nick it as well.



- Characters! What will be done with them? Logan Grimnar seems to be becoming a master tactician akin to Creed, so what does this bode for Dante, the oldest living space marine outside of a Dreadnought? No telling how many battles he's witnessed, fought in and led. Mephiston will probably remain a monster, hopefully with some form of invulnerable save now (Maybe..) and a slew of new psyker powers. Corbulo will hopefully remain a support character as he is now, giving an area effect bonus to squads around him. What else might we expect on this front?

Most of the current ones are ok starts (except Mephiston he needs some tweaking to get back to where he ought to be). Giving Dante some sort of Army Wide buff like Calgar would be nice (and Eternal Warrior) and a relic blade for his axe would get him where I'd like to see him.


- Death Company remaining as they are I expect. They're mighty killy in their present form.

If they get moved to being a purchasable unit they could do with some weapon options, for close combat at least.


- Overcharged engines remaining, probably working as they do now. I like their unpredictability and think they finally did them right in the PDF codex out now. Also like that the Baal pred has them, hope that remains that way.

I'd be okay with these going away, or perhaps replaced with a specific vehicle upgrade for making certain units fast vehicles. The Baal predator itself could do with a points reduction as its not quite as impressive as it used to be.

Jack

Wolvychops
09-01-2009, 02:45 PM
blood angels were one of the armies that got em into the game, and im pumped to see them get their own book.

I am expecting a very similar list to the Wight Dwarf one, but as it has been going for other SM chapters in their codex's' they may get some special stuff that we haven't even seen.

My prediction is that they will come out with a few new special characters, just like DA and SW, and the new plastics will no doubtingly look great.

I also see them adding in some stuff from the old 2nd Ed book. there was some great fluff in their that played out game wise such as a marine carrying the shroud of sanguine that he could open up once per game and give the army some nice bonuses. (not positive on the exact rule)

Im looking forward to what they come up with

Red__Thirst
09-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Nice replies, thanks everyone for their thoughts.

Regarding Mephiston, I feel that he should be given an invulnerable save, as he's T:5 already, it takes a ST:10 shot to gakk him. Still, eternal warrior isn't a bad option and there is precedent for characters with an invulnerable save and eternal warrior. Calgar is one, and Lysander springs to mind as well. Both characters are beasts, however with that epic thunder hammer or the gauntlets, they need both to be assured they get a chance to even swing.

I personally would like to see Mephiston's stat line remain the same, same wargear, add a 4+ invulnerable save to that of course. Eternal Warrior would be nice too but I'll not speculate or hope on that front. Psyker powers would be the next point of discussion. I wonder what they'll be? Obviously some close combat enhancement & movement enhancement powers will be available. His transfixing glare should remain, as that's just a damn cool ability and a favorite fluff point of the character. I'd personally like to see a Mephiston only psyker power that takes advantage of his ability to channel the black rage and use it rather than be consumed by it. Maybe letting him have feel no pain and the benefit of furious charge on subsequent turns after charging?

Dante, I just love this character. Probably my all time favorite Blood Angel character, period. Wargear remains as it does in the present white dwarf codex, with the addition of letting his axe be something more than just master crafted. Either +1 strength, or something nifty. Even just naming it and giving it some history would be nice. I mean, he's the chapter master damnit, let him have some neat bells and whistles in close combat too. ;) Also, Dante needs Eternal Warrior, definately. He's been around so long, if he doen't have this rule I'll be genuinely surprised. Retain some army-wide or area of effect around him special rules/buffs and perhaps gain some Creed-eque orders to issue similar to Logan Grimnar.

I'd also like to say that I wish they'd give some of the most popular blood angels models a resculpt. Mephiston and Dante both. I know that's wishful thinking on my part, but I for one would love to see something similar to that.

One last point, what about adding in some new special characters based on some of the more recent publications from the Black Library? Brother Sergeant Rafen from the Deus Encarmine/Deus Sanguinius novels. Books were decent but the character is cool, perhaps as a tactical squad Sergeant upgrade similar to Telion? Just a thought on that front.

Looking forwards to seeing what others have to say on this, what about other characters? Anyone have predictions on them?

Till next time,

-RT-

Docrailgun
09-01-2009, 05:13 PM
I mostly want recosted special and heavy weapons and updated Storm Shields.
Most everything else can stay the same... I surely want Baal Predators to remain the same uber-cheapness, DC Furiosos to remain dirt cheap, and Assault Marines to remain Troops.

crazyredpraetorian
09-01-2009, 05:15 PM
I think it will finally come out that they really wear pink armor.

splnes
09-01-2009, 05:39 PM
some things that i would like to see is:
1)Mephiston getting a ton of new powers
2)i would like to see the option for assult marines to get combat shields, all of them!
3)i also would like to see the army get a form of herioc intervention!
4)as of now Dante is a monster but a lascannon/power klaw ends him, he needs eternal warrior.

Guta
09-01-2009, 05:44 PM
i just hope that they keep the same indep char and keep super charged engines.

Jackmojo
09-01-2009, 05:45 PM
I'd like to see mephiston get back to his all 6's statline (WS,BS, S, T) so he can skip eternal warrior (let force weapons kill him, they need something to work on) couple that with Tigurius like psyker abilities and a 4+ invulnerable save and he'd be gravy.

And I'm fine with him costing as much as a land raider for that.

Jack

zanzibarthefirst
09-01-2009, 07:23 PM
as for giving dante and mephiston eternal warrior, while i agree that in their fluff it makes sense, you wouldn't want to see that ability handed out willy nilly

But it is. Why has Calgar got it? It wont be long until force weapons are completely useless as everythgin with more than one wond will have eternal warrior

Red__Thirst
09-01-2009, 08:37 PM
I agree, I think mephiston should get the invulnerable save, and Dante should get Eternal Warrior. In my opinion, having one character in a codex with it is more than enough.

Out of the two of them, Dante should have Eternal Warrior in my opinion.

But what about Cobulo, or Lemartes? What are people's thoughts on them? Just curious I suppose ;)

More soon, take care everyone.

-RT-

Red__Thirst
09-01-2009, 11:22 PM
As promised, more thoughts on characters. Sorry to double-post but this is sort of a continuation of my last post in that sense.

Firstly, Tycho. I can see him still being in the codex, but maybe not... Honestly I don't think they'll bring him back, but you never know. As for his wargear and abilities, I don't see them changing much either. He'll be a special anti-ork character if nothing else.

Corbulo, I forsee staying as he is in the present PDF codex. He's pretty effective and also a very neat concept, not terribly expensive, and not the end-all-be-all close combat model, but the red grail abilities coupled with his exanguinator make him a nice option.

I will take a moment and say I hope that they return the option to field Sanguiniary High Priests as an HQ choice back. Just a note there.

Lemartes, I forsee getting some kind of buff as well perhaps. I think he deserves one in any event. He's a damn cool character that I feel has never gotten the kind of credit he deserves. Of course I'd also like to say that he really...really deserves a new model. I have his old model and have it painted up to a good standard... but it is still absolutely hideous in regard to the pose. Honestly, I can say that if you field Lemartes, and he leads your death company, the death company should get some form of bonus. Fleet perhaps, as he leads from the front of and can urge his brothers gripped by the rage onward while still keeping them focused on the battle ahead, rather than just going insane. Just wishful thinking on that front.

Hopefully Moriar will make a grand return, I know I'd love to see him trodding across the battlefield again.

Just my thoughts on that. Hopefully more to come soon.

-RT-

Rafen
09-01-2009, 11:52 PM
I am going to have to agree with this point made earlier in the discussion.


One last point, what about adding in some new special characters based on some of the more recent publications from the Black Library? Brother Sergeant Rafen from the Deus Encarmine/Deus Sanguinius novels. Books were decent but the character is cool, perhaps as a tactical squad Sergeant upgrade similar to Telion? Just a thought on that front.

I would love to see Rafen made into a model. :D

Red__Thirst
09-02-2009, 12:21 AM
I am going to have to agree with this point made earlier in the discussion.



I would love to see Rafen made into a model. :D

As would I. Would be nifty if he could be fielded as an elite choice and carry the Spear of Telestro as part of his wargear. Wishful thinking on that I know, but still, would be a nifty option I think.

Some thoughts.

Brother Sergeant Rafen, Bearer of the Spear of Telestro.

Wargear would be Power Armor, bolter, frag/krak grenades, bolt pistol, Spear of Telestro, and maybe some form of invulnerable save perhaps granted by the spear.

Spear of Telestro Profile:
master crafted, counts as a relic blade in the form of a spear, May emit a pulse once per game cenered on Brother Rafen. Place the Large blast template over the rafen model and any non Blood Angel models touched by the template take a ST:6 AP:2 hit.

Seems reasonable. Not terribly overpowered but something cool that ties into the recent Black Library publications about the Blood Angels.

Thoughts?

-RT-

Brother_Artimese
09-02-2009, 01:44 AM
If Tycho makes it back in I would like for him to have a power weapon. IIRC he didn't even have a chainsword.

All in all I like the current WD/PDF codex. I would just like the equipment brought into line with the current marine codex (same with the DA and BT).

I would also like it if they could split up furiousos/normal dreads/terminators/assault termies/veteran assault squads up a bit. Maybe put the Vets in Fast attack and put normal Dreads back into Heavy (per the old codex).

No matter what: keep the normal assault squads as TROOPS. That makes me so happy.

Mark!

Katie Drake
09-02-2009, 02:00 AM
Character-wise, I'd like to see Dante pick up Eternal Warrior. I'm fine with him remaining as a bit more of a support character than a front line fighter, so everything else about him can stay the same (bar his points cost, of course! :P ), though I guess it'd make sense to give him Orbital Bombardment like other Chapter Masters.

Mephiston needs some way to get an Invulnerable save. I don't think he should have it built into his cost as a piece of wargear, but should instead be a psychic power. Say something similar to the Force Dome power that Codex Marine Librarians have. Also, I really hope they do away with the Wings of Sangunius power. While I'm glad that GW listened to our impassioned cries for Mephiston to be given a means of moving quickly, Wings just seems like a super lame idea for a power. Maybe it's just me?

Tycho seriously needs to be treated with some respect by the GW design team. Give the man a freaking power weapon so he's actually worth considering, or even Rending or something along those lines.

Lemartes is fine as is, though he needs to cost more points, plain and simple. Right now he costs only 5 points more than a normal Chaplain with a jump pack and has many significant advantages that should cost a lot more than 5 points.

Corbulo is fine as well, though I suspect he'll become more expensive in points and less talented in close combat than he already is.

Also, the "vanilla" characters need a boost so that they can "compete" for a slot in players armies instead of always being ignored in favor of the special characters. Making it so that Captains that take Jump Packs allow Blood Angel armies to take Assault Marines as Troops would be a great start especially if this ability was not given to Commander Dante. I personally feel that presenting players with difficult choices is a good thing, as it generally means that each of the choices are valid and are balanced against one another. Oh, and all statlines, rules for wargear and such from Codex: Vulkan and Friends need to be given to the Blood Angels as well, for the sake of consistency and player's sanity. :P

The Tactical Squads need to be changed up to be like the Codex Marine ones, with all the proper options present and accounted for. The ability to take a squad that's more than 5 men strong yet less than 10 would also be very much appreciated.

The Rhino is great as is, though the Razorback needs to be brought down in points cost to match that of the Codex Marine Razorback. The Razorback, along with all other vehicles bar Drop Pods and Whirlwinds should come with overcharged engines as part of their standard equipment with their points costs adjusted accordingly.

Veteran Assault Marines are fabulous as they are now. Please, please GW don't make us pay 10 points per model for our jump packs like the poor Vanguard. Heroic Intervention should be an option, not something that we're forced to pay for and don't get the chance to use if we don't bother with jump packs.

Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Techmarines should be changed to be like the Codex Marine ones. The Furioso could use Fleet pretty badly, but should lose the ability to be Venerable. The Death Company upgrade should remain as is in its current form.

Speaking of the Death Company, they're fine as they are now, but their cost should not be built into the cost of every unit in the army. Instead, they should cost a set number of points (say 25 points per model, plus 5 more for a jump pack) with one Death Company Marine allowed to be taken for each contributing squad in the army - this will allow people to field Blood Angel armies that don't include any Death Company if they so choose.

That's all I've got for now, but hopefully someone from GW will read these opinions and take them into account when writing the Blood Angel Codex! :P

Wolfshade
09-02-2009, 03:58 AM
Looking at the new SH Termies makes me quite excited about what GW can do in normal plastics, I thought that there kits were awesome and then they churn out something even awesomer [not sure that that is a word]. But looking at codex impy G and SM it strikes me that they would have to increase the number of special characters, possibly a return for Cleutin bearer of the sacred shroud! As far as Death Company goes I'm not sure, I really liked 2nd edition where you pay for what you got, shed loads of power fists if I remember correctly, then in 3rd we had the completely random, you pick so many squads, on a roll of 4+ one becomes part of the DC, that was cool by the randomness of it all, but did lead people to field scouts so that when they turned into DC it was a free upgrade, so I'm in two minds, part of me thinks it should be random amount, the other part hated seeing a 5 man terminator squad reduced to a 3 man squad as two scumbed to the black rage

Feuermann
09-02-2009, 04:43 AM
I want generic blood priest in HQ choices, not only corbulo XDXD

and more option for generic chaptains, storm shields like vanilla ones,... but I like the "baal land raider" idea since I saw a conversion in the B&C forum

McPherson
09-02-2009, 12:20 PM
Mephiston moving to his old all 6's stat line would fix him a lot - add a Invulnerable save (Even just a 5+) to make him less likely to be mobbed by power weapons and he'll be worth every point you cost him at.

Dante definetly needs a boost to his close combat prowess (maxing hte Aze Mortarion a relic blade would probably do this by itself) And giving him Eternal warrior is a good call as well. Regarding giving him orbital strike, while I understand all vanilla chapter masters get it I think it doesnt work for Dante/The Blood Angels. Perhaps instead of Oribital strike give him a once per game special rule, either something like the orks where they gain armywide fleet for a turn or he and the unit he is attached to can deep strike into combat, something to pull the BA apart from the other marines.

Lemartes having a similiar stat line to Cassius would be good - though I think leaving him as he is and giving him a bonus to leading the death company would be better (even if it is simply he gets d3+3 Death company with him automatically a la the old codex Chaplains)

With the drop in effectiveness of the Assault cannon combined with IG's awesome bullet thrower the Punisher, the Baal should get some sort of price drop.

Of course you could also go back to the bad old days and give the BA a special rule that on a successful leadership test they can treat any transport as open topped for the purposes of assaulting - thus bringing back the hordes of Blood Angels Rhino Rush armies from 3rd edition (joking)

tcraigen
09-02-2009, 01:03 PM
only a couple mention on the poor choice of putting scouts in Elites with no wargear. I my self have alot of them, not a good reason to change them but they are useless at the moment. They dont get picked and serve no purpose where they are. They need options and abilities, plus the idea of them not having the new transport is a must with BA. The thought of them having to only walk is dumb, they need bikes and the speeder.

Either tycho is or isnt dead, get your story in line. I'd prefer him to "BE"

Sanguinary priests adress the idea of them being/ not being HQ.

I would really like to see a character the can take the army in a non-standard BA way purely out of interest. I character that would make you go "oh well thats an interesting thought" As apose to rush- kill- rush.

Almost all other points noted or mentioned above seem valid and it seems it could go in almost any direction. I think they should build from the PDF codex rather then whole new book. I think that constant radical changes is where the majority of problems stem from.