Big Name, Big Price Tag

[Whoop!]

Big Name, Big Price Tag.
Hey all, I got a question for all you players out there. Do you really need a big name to consistently win?


I haven't spent any time in tournaments (yet :-)) but I think I'm pretty good at building armies, and my win percentage is well over 50%. Being an old-school curmudgeon, and all around cheap***, I can never bring myself to spend the points on a big-name character. Now I know Njal rock's, but he is such a target that he is just too expensive to make up for the two lower profile Rune Priests that I can field instead.

I mean I can see how Ragnar's additional attacks and furious charge can be devastating, but I can't see spending as much as it would cost me for Wolf Priest AND a 10 pack of Grey Hunters! Now I can see building the Logan Grimnar giving relentless to some MM long fangs, or a whole list of Wolf guard with combimelta's, but this seems more like a trick list and a one trick pony at that.

Redundancy! Redundancy! And redundancy! I guess I kind of build armies like an accountant, it may not be as flashy as bustin out Logan Grimnar, but an extra pack of Grey Hunters is hard to throw away!

[gcsmith]

Yes its possible, but the benefits of some named characters are just too synegetic to leave out if you wanna win, such as teclis in fantasy or the BA chars.

[eagleboy7259]

Realistically 90% of Vanilla Marine players don't play without a named character. Same with Eldar and Eldrad. Demons with Skarbrand / Fateweaver. They add so much to the army that you can't really get without the named characters. Not to mention certain characters which unlock builds that you couldn't get without them - Ravenwing w/ Sammy, Deathwing w/ Belial, Dread Spam w/ Master of the Forge, etc. BA's basic HQ choices are just so meh that it becomes worthwhile to take the named characters.

Space Wolves HQ choices can bring just as much pain as many of the named characters in other books. Theres really no need to take them most of the time. Other armies just don't have that luxury.

[Xas]

Yes its possible, but the benefits of some named characters are just too synegetic to leave out if you wanna win, such as teclis in fantasy or the BA chars.

you are serious?

I see allmost no SCM (special charakter modell) worth their points (notable among those who are are some SM ones like vulkan, lysander as well as eldrath for his discount on better ability compared to normal seer).

Especially the BA ones seam pretty expensive for what they do and not really open up any new builds like khan, pedro or shrike!


so to the OP: I've had good sucess without useing SCM and just staying on the cheap side with minimalist HQs (for this I really like the librarians who come filly equipped for their base cost and all they could want is a jumppack/terminator armor if they want to operate with said unit types to keep up/teleport into battle whilst a captain really needs expensive equipment to compensate in melee power for the librarians utility because of psychic powers ).

some of the SCMs are good buys but the points can buy you somethin equivalent in combat power in most situations (lysander for example costs as much as 5 SS/TH termies who can fulfill a similar role). its more a question of flavour and likeing (and your FOC slots!).

[Lerra]

I like to keep my HQs fairly cheap so that I can put more bodies on the table. I don't mind taking cheaper special characters, though. One of my favorite HQs is The Blue Scribes at 130 pts.

Fateweaver/Skarbrand is not nearly as good as people think it is. Both of those HQs create a huge weakness in the army - kill the HQ and the army falls apart. Plus those armies play very predictably, so it's fairly easy to out-tactic your opponent. None of the daemon lists I've seen at the top tables in large tournaments have run either Fateweaver or Skarbrand.

[gcsmith]

SC arnt all about unlocking new builds, but making current builds stronger, sure some are a dump, but all 5th edition codi have a good 1 at least. Wether it gives u new units in new slots, or gives u new direction. or just buffs.

[Necron2.0]

That really depends on which IC you're talking about, and for what army. I've put together an Iron Hands army that has simulacra of both Vulkan He'Stan and Captain Lysander. Vulkan makes all my meltas and Thunderhammers mastercrafted (and I've got a lot of both) and Lysander makes the bolters on my main body of SM's mastercrafted (effectively). In and of themselves, those two IC's aren't worth their points, but when you tailor your army to take advantage of their benefits, they can be killer.

Of course, you will find IC's that simply are not worth their points ... ever. Lelith comes immediately to mind. Granted, she is devastating when she gets into hand to hand, if you can get her into close combat. I had her at the head of a group of Wyches that plowed into a full squad of Space Marines and she killed every last one of them before the other Wyches could even strike. Sounds impressive, until you realize that Lelith costs the same as a Void Raven bomber or 17 normal Wyches, and both probably would have done the same. Beyond that, the Void Raven can take out a Lemun Russ, which Lelith could never do. And 17 Wyches, when not in hand to hand, will normally inflict 9 wounds through splinter pistol fire (prior to armor saves). Outside of close combat, Lelith is just a very expensive and very ineffectual meat shield. So, unless I know my opponent will field nothing but Terminators, I probably won't be taking her all that often.

[Denzark]

Iron-Salamander-Fists? Whatever next? Blood-Wolf-Knights?

[Whoop!]

Iron-Salamander-Fists? Whatever next? Blood-Wolf-Knights?

I was in a band called Blood Wolf Knights once, it was a tribute band to KISS:rolleyes:

No different than Chaos Wolves, whatever gets you to the table!

[scadugenga]

Personally, I think SC use is a crutch.

And a poorly conceived GW idea at that.

But I'm clearly in the internet minority on this issue.

And I've played eldar nigh on exclusively for 20 years without ever using Eldrad, and rarely using a P-Lord.

Maybe 6th ed will bring back the fun variable build options of the glorious freedom of 2nd ed...

But I won't hold my breath. :)

[Necron2.0]

Iron-Salamander-Fists? Whatever next? Blood-Wolf-Knights?

Now, now. The SM Codex effectively states the named characters are unique only in so much as you can only have one per army. The only truly, truly unique characters are the Primarchs. Besides, you show me exactly where in the codex the named Iron Hand Forge Fathers are, and I'll happily use them. ;)

And in any event, to be accurate it's Iron-Ultra-Salamander-Fists. Sgt Telion is leading my scouts, in the ruins that Captain Lysander bolstered. :D

[MrGiggles]

I used to use Mad Dox Grotsnik a fair bit, but that was largely due to the fact that he just happened to be the first actual Ork HQ model I wound up with. I still bring him out the odd time to run with a unit of Feel No Pain Cyber-Grotz, but it's more likely that I'll just run a Warboss, Big Mek or Wierdboy. I did actually get Ghadzgkull finished though, so I'll probably see how he does. At this point, I've only fielded him in a couple of Apocalypse games.

As to the rest, I've fielded Fabius Bile a couple of times with some Chaos Space Marines I've borrowed from my buddy. He's random and entertaining. Even my friend though, who seems to have most of the CSM characters just goes for a Demon Prince or marked Lord more often than not. I can't really blame him though; none of the CSM characters do much for the army (except beat face, lots) with the exception of Fabius Bile and even then, he doesn't always do stuff that you want to the army.

I can definitely see fielding Special Characters with certain builds. Take my Orks for instance, if I really wanted to do an all biker army and didn't want to foot for Nob Bikers, I'd need Wazdakka. In gaming terms, I think the current crop of SC's is here to stay, which is a mixed blessing. I like that there are some easy ways to get variant FOC's. I think though that keying that to an option on your HQ's like getting a bike for a Space Marine Captain is a better move. Either way though, whether you call them special characters or wargear options, at the end of the day, I like that folks have the ability to build the army they want within the rules.

[eagleboy7259]

I like to keep my HQs fairly cheap so that I can put more bodies on the table. I don't mind taking cheaper special characters, though. One of my favorite HQs is The Blue Scribes at 130 pts.

Fateweaver/Skarbrand is not nearly as good as people think it is. Both of those HQs create a huge weakness in the army - kill the HQ and the army falls apart. Plus those armies play very predictably, so it's fairly easy to out-tactic your opponent. None of the daemon lists I've seen at the top tables in large tournaments have run either Fateweaver or Skarbrand.

Oh yes when you kill the Fateweaver the Bloodcrushers become pathetic. And when you kill Skarbrand the Slaaneshi demons ability to rend through units and tanks is just worthless.

Fateweaver & Skarbrand make good units better. Whole armies don't just fall apart because 1 expensive SC dies. "Oh my Chappy, Big Mek, IC just died making my army weaker I must concede defeat right now!" The components of the list are still just as solid. Neither Fateweaver or Skarbrand are all that more expensive than your normal run of the mill Bloodthrister or Lord of Change.

Oh wait you must be thinking every demon army has to run 4x Tzeentch Heralds, 3x 6 Strong Fiends, 6x 5 strong Plaguebearers, and 3x Demon Princes.... spam is competitiveness after all.

[DarkLink]

Good units don't necessarily make good armies. Fateweaver makes a bunch of good units into a good army, because they're just so tough to deal with. But when Fateweaver goes down, now they're just bunch of good individual units but a meh army overall, due to various inherent weaknesses in the Daemon codex.

[eldargal]

I've been playing Eldar for, hm, fifteen years or so and I've never fielded Eldrad* once, because I've never had an Ulthwe army. I've fielded the Phoenix Lords in apocalypse games but beyond that I just don't use special characters. I don't really consider Phoenix Lords as special characters for some reason, more like squd upgrades.:rolleyes:
I don't have a problem with special characters, I do have a problem with seeing the same old SC lists over and over again though. Because it is boring. I would rather SCs were just fluffy choice with a decent ability to make them worth it, rather than the all powerful beasts they tend to be these days. Give regular HQs choices like Autarchs and Captains to make one elite/HS/whatever troops to make them a bit more worthwhile in comparison to SCs as well.




*I do have his model, nicely painted though. He is Eldrad afterall. He liked visiting my Craftworld to spy on all the Banshees, the dirty old man.

[Mr.Pickelz]

SC's offer that Cinematic moment, like Ragnar with his blood claws squad, charging and cutting down some Thousand sons' chaos space marines. Or, having Ghazkull "waaggh!" with a huge mob of boyz and get the charge on some guardsmen. That said, the generic hq's are there for you to make your own SC, as all hq's are in someway unique. And that is why their HQ's and not elites/troops/fast attack/heavy support.

Edit: having said that, i perfer having 1 special character, or if i'm goin with a theme army, like my orks are (green tide with Ghaz at the helm). other then that, the generics more then fill the needed roles.

[Dalleron]

SC's are a tough call. If you wanted to do a certain SM chapter variant, you needed to take a SC, or at least if you wanted an all termie army you did until the latest SM 'dex arrived. Unless you're a die hard. I could field my Ravenwing as a SM army of some form, but I choose not too.

I think if you're a reasonable player, you're hard pressed to not take a special character. Take Vul'kan for instance. I costed out what he would normally cost. He was essentially the same point cost as a no name version of the same gear. Add in his chapter tactics and he gets a whole lot better for the points. Sure, there are exceptions but there has to be exceptions. Otherwise it's a rule, and SC's as a rule would suck.

But we all the know the reason that SC's exist. And that is to sell models. And you won't sell models if the rules, or models, aren't worth it. And GW has said they're a model company first and foremost.

[Connjurus]

Why do I use special characters?

Because I love the fluff. In addition, while other things may do what Special Characters can do - the Lelith = 17 Wyches comment comes to mind - they just don't do it as stylishly. Not to mention it's a lot easier to hide one model behind terrain than 17. ;)


And as for effectiveness? Well, as a Chaos Space Marine player, I suffer from using a codex before this fancy schmancy "let's rearrange the Force Organization Chart in a good way" trend that I sincerely hope continues. That being said, do I just choose not to use Special Characters? Hell no. Ahriman, for instance, while costing a lot, is just too fun to not use - Warptime, Winds of Chaos, then charge in and use your Force Weapon on some multi-wound model. Abaddon, of course, while he may cost 275 points, is just one tough nut to crack if you use him right - and once you get him into combat, I don't care who you are, you're probably going to die. I have killed nearly every other named Special Character in the game with Abaddon - Swarmlord (Land Raider delivery helped there, I'll admit), Mephiston (lol no invulnerable save), Lelith (low strength, only takes one wound to take her down), hell, even the Nightbringer. If the whole idea behind mathhammer is ROLL LOTS OF DICE FOR CONSISTENT WOUND SATURATION, then Abaddon is your best friend. Initiative Six, Strength 8 attacks that can be between 6 and 10, and I hardly ever roll 1's when it's for that Daemon Weapon of his.


Went off on a bit of a tangent there - it is pretty late - but my point is, I use Special Characters because I think they're awesome.

And I'll kill any no-name Chapter Master with Abaddon 99 times out of 100.

[Lockark]

Personally, I think SC use is a crutch.

And a poorly conceived GW idea at that.

But I'm clearly in the internet minority on this issue.

And I've played eldar nigh on exclusively for 20 years without ever using Eldrad, and rarely using a P-Lord.

Maybe 6th ed will bring back the fun variable build options of the glorious freedom of 2nd ed...

But I won't hold my breath. :)


Special Characters as a crutch? This statement to me seems very silly/bias. It's like saying Landradiers are a crutch people use to make there armies better. How are special characters any more a crutch then any other unit?

Named characters are units just like anything eals. Some are better then others. It's also your choice at the end of the day if you want to use them.
=/


On topic. In 40k I play Orks, CSM, and IG. The only named characters I ever use is the vet Sargent upgrade charters. But many times find them not worth there points.

In WHFB I use the Troll King in my Warrioir of Chaos army, because trolls as core is awesome.
X3

[Denzark]

Now, now. The SM Codex effectively states the named characters are unique only in so much as you can only have one per army. The only truly, truly unique characters are the Primarchs. Besides, you show me exactly where in the codex the named Iron Hand Forge Fathers are, and I'll happily use them. ;)

And in any event, to be accurate it's Iron-Ultra-Salamander-Fists. Sgt Telion is leading my scouts, in the ruins that Captain Lysander bolstered. :D



Ha Ha! La touche, Monsieur!

I'd still play ya, I hate Lysander and despise Vulkan more but love Kharn doing his thang so can't complain...

[Denzark]

I have siad it once, I'll say it again.

2ed. Al Rahem may only be used in a Tallarn Army, Chenkov in a Valhallan, etc etc.

Should have done that this edition with all IG regiments and SM Chapters, and also my beloved Chaos.

[Whoop!]

I personally don't see a problem with using a bunch of different SCs, these are advantages both nilla Marines and IG really need.I think that their great for adding a flare or a change of pace. My only problem is when you see them in every army. I'm sure you can think of an army where this is true (BA).

[Connjurus]

Blood Angels?

I'd say Space Wolves are more guilty of this than Blood Angels.

[Whoop!]

Touche!
Of course when I play wolves I don't have any SC, just my own HQ units.(List is on my blog)
And since I am a wolves player I usually bring out my Necrons instead of brother fighting brother.

[Force21]

The only special characters I use often are Creed & Kell... & Brother Captain Stern.


I love the Fluff for em & they are not to bad for what you pay for... maybe Creed & Kell are a bit pricey but hey I can live without the extra 30 Guardsmen...

[eagleboy7259]

Blood Angels?

I'd say Space Wolves are more guilty of this than Blood Angels.

Nope. Space Wolves HQ choices can be summarized as either useless because they offer nothing that much greater than your standard HQ choices and lock you into "meh'" options, useless because they are overcosted compared to their use, or expensive and worthwhile.

I see Logan because he unlocks Loganwing. I see Arjac because he fits into Loganwing. Lukas is expensive, no one takes Blood Claws when you can take Grey Hunters, and Ld 8 is straight terrible. Njal is good but he straight dies because he is 2+/4++ with 2 wounds, and again expensive - you can get 2 Rune Priests for his costs. Canis Wolfborn is just bad because he has no inv. save. You're better off taking a Thunderwolf Lord who is better in assault and infinately more survivable for 20-30pts more. Ulrik is just aweful, just aweful. Leaving Ragnar who is just alright.

Thanks to the combination of wargear, transport options, jump pack, bike or thunderwolf, and sagas you can make any HQ choice become at least as effective in both shooting and assault as any of the space wolve characters.


With Blood Angels it just doesn't make sense to not take a special character. The standard Blood Angels commander is actually worse than the generic SM one because his options are limited. You can make a good argument for the Chappy and the Librarian in the BA army but usually you'll see Mephiston, Sanguinor, Astorath, etc. because they can straight up kill whole units on their own. Seth is better than people give him credit for, Dante has a neat ability, Tycho is cheap enough and still better than your generic commander.

[Connjurus]

And yet, I see more Librarian BA lists than any SC lists, and Mephiston is just bad - people overrate him waaaay too much. Dante is easy to kill, the Sanguinor is expensive and easy to bog down, Seth is...decent at killing a few low armorsave troops, but not much else, Tycho is hardly ever used. I only ever see Astorath being used a lot, out of all the special characters...kind of like Logan, odd huh?

But I see way more Loganwing lists than I do any list built around Blood Angels special characters.

[eagleboy7259]

And yet, I see more Librarian BA lists than any SC lists, and Mephiston is just bad - people overrate him waaaay too much. Dante is easy to kill, the Sanguinor is expensive and easy to bog down, Seth is...decent at killing a few low armorsave troops, but not much else, Tycho is hardly ever used. I only ever see Astorath being used a lot, out of all the special characters...kind of like Logan, odd huh?

But I see way more Loganwing lists than I do any list built around Blood Angels special characters.

Count-as Loganwing or straight up Space Wolves players running Logan and Wolf Guard? Ever since the Dark Angels and Black Templars books got FAQ'd I've been seeing a lot more Deathwing and a lot less count-as armies. Either way its not really a fair comparison because you have to use Logan if you want to use that build.

Seth - let's work with your breakdown of the Blood Angels special characters, there's a lot of options and not much really worth taking. Seth offers all the benefits that your average SM Commander brings to the table for 160pts. So taking him isn't really a big investment in any army. He brings 4 strength 8, initiative 5 rending attacks. Most people put powerfists on their veteran sergeants to give their squads the versatility to take down tanks and defend against monstrous creatures and walkers. Stick Seth in that squad and not only is he better at achieving all those tasks, but it frees your sergeant up to take a power sword and strike at initiative. Seth is also pretty good at hanging around your Terminators because his strength and initiative never limit your target choices so he can either complement LC's or TH's that might struggle if you go for all of one option. Then theres always the obvious reason that only every 9 out of 10 people play space marines so if you do end up fighting that "other" army his ability to hit on 3+/4+ and wound on 2+ can really help you run through a squad.

I'm not saying he's wonderful, he's just a character that can find a use in most builds and is cheap enough for people who don't lavish a majority of their points on HQ selections. With so much Mech around his S8 is nice. And he's S9, I6 on the charge if you have a priest hanging around.

[Demonus]

Now, now. The SM Codex effectively states the named characters are unique only in so much as you can only have one per army. The only truly, truly unique characters are the Primarchs. Besides, you show me exactly where in the codex the named Iron Hand Forge Fathers are, and I'll happily use them. ;)

And in any event, to be accurate it's Iron-Ultra-Salamander-Fists. Sgt Telion is leading my scouts, in the ruins that Captain Lysander bolstered. :D



this sounds very fun. would you mind Messaging me your list?

[doom-kitten]

Originally when I started I used Celestine in every army but recently I've dropped her out in favouring of more fire power my canoness though she can't fly has the same number of attacks, the same strength, the only difference in stateline is Celestine is In 5 and Ws 5 to the Canoness's 4 in both. I like the Divine Intervention rule but the loss of a d6 Faith points with the chance of not being able to recover them makes Celestine a risky choice and she's 201 points to the cannoness's 85-90. In larger games I plan to run her simply for the look of the model and the awesome amount of attention she draws from my opponents they don't seem to notice that a single marine with a powerfist can do her in XD toughness 3 with a 4+ invul and no EW. I've never used any other characters but I've had fun introducing them to Exorcist death like my first tuournament where an opponent dropped Abbadon and a squad of termies into play retributors thinned out the termies and Exorcist finished the chaos infidel with a gusto. So I don't mind SC but they are alittle overly priced for their abiulities and often then not their mostly a distraction or something that looks nice but rarely performs I could be wrong as I don't have much experience with them.