What the Emperor Knew

[dmcq]

Hi Peeps

We've come a long way now with the Horus Heresy series and I find that there seems to be a strange theme emerging.

1/ In the vision that Horus had while in the Davin fane, the emperor acknowledges him by saying "I know you?" and then just leaves his laboratory, his 'Great work' of the creation of the Primarchs going to {literally} hell around him.
2/ Magus warned the Emperor and wreaked his work on the stable Terran gate to the webway, yet the Emperor still sent the Wolves to Prospero.
3/ The spreading of the Lectito Divinatus throughout the Crusade and on world in compliance long before the Heresy started, was well known about via rumor and hearsay, yet the only censure that occurs is to the Word Bearers and Lorgar.

These are just a few instances I have read that the Emperor knew that something was about to happen and yet did nothing to stop it, indeed may have created the circumstances for the Heresy and its aftermath to happen.

Any thoughts????

[Fellend]

2/
Well he did tell magnus not to mess around with sorcery and his sorcery did ruin years and years and god knows what else the Emperor sacrificed. He also knew that the warp was dangerous and to invite it is to invite your own destruction.
As for ignoring the warning about Horus, honestly I think it's just erm... plotting, it needs to happen okay? So I'm going to go with the Emperor being stubborn and refusing to see that his favorite son has gone rogue

3/
They knew it was spreading but the Emperor had made it clear that it was outlawed, much like all real life religions they find a way to spread and survive no matter the restrictions put on it (just look at christianity's history)

[jorz192]

Rather than the emporer being just stubborn, I guess I tend to see it as he loved Horus too much.
Sappy definitely.

The spell to warn the emporer used by Magnus caused a rupture in the webway, opening a gateway into the warp on Terra.

[L192837465]

Rather than the emporer being just stubborn, I guess I tend to see it as he loved Horus too much.
Sappy definitely.

The spell to warn the emporer used by Magnus caused a rupture in the webway, opening a gateway into the warp on Terra.

Upon which the Golden Throne was built. Good times!

[dmcq]

Apart from those instances can anyone think of any others or why the emperor let thing happen as they did?

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, Angron's story is usually shown as one where the Emperor sets one of his sons up to resent him.

The basics are that Angron was leading his band of gladiators in a last-ditch defensive against their oppressive overlords, when the Emperor teleported Angron away just before the fight started, leaving the Gladiators to die leaderless. Pissed Angron off quite a bit!

[Fellend]

Apart from those instances can anyone think of any others or why the emperor let thing happen as they did?

It's very easy with hindsight to say that He let things happend as they did. Most likely, He did his best, but lets face it, He had an Imperium of an immense sight to rule while trying to create the greatest invention ever seen by mankind and battling the forces of the warp itself. He looks away for 2 minutes leaving His sons to run the show and they manage to ruin everything.

He might have been the best man ever seen by mankind but He was still just one Man (man-god-uberprimarchthing) and things can easily spiral out of control.

[Connjurus]

In the Horus Heresy artbook "Collected Visions" there is the story of the Emperor fighting Horus, and the entire time, he is depicted as shocked, IN HIS MIND. You are reading it from the Emperor's perspective (third-person of course), seeing his thoughts, and you can see he clearly had no idea THIS was going to happen.

[gwensdad]

In one of the really early 40K novels (non-thought of as "non-canon", I think it was titled "Inquisitor") the ending had The Emperor having what could only be called really severe multiple personality disorder. In that book there were hunderads if not thousands of personalities all doing different things in his mind. This was "blamed" on his whole eating-of-psychers thing but what if this were happening on a smaller scale BEFORE his internment in the throne? Could he have had a public face that believed all the primarchs loved him, etc. and another personality that wanted to be worshiped, allowed the cult to grow, and pissed off the primarchs that would one day rebel against him?

This has been your heretical conspiracy theory of the day..

[Necron2.0]

They say the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Maybe the emperor was just a putz. Oh to be sure, a POWERFUL putz, but a putz nonetheless. ;)

[Drew da Destroya]

In one of the really early 40K novels (non-thought of as "non-canon", I think it was titled "Inquisitor") the ending had The Emperor having what could only be called really severe multiple personality disorder. In that book there were hunderads if not thousands of personalities all doing different things in his mind. This was "blamed" on his whole eating-of-psychers thing but what if this were happening on a smaller scale BEFORE his internment in the throne?

This fits pretty well with the really early fluff that depicted the Emperor as being the reincarnation of all of the ancient Shaman-dudes. Kind of interesting, really.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I like the mutiple personality idea thing :D... But like people have already said, he is but a man and even though he's is something like 30,000 years old... How does he know how to cope with everything he wished for humanity, as well as removing Chaos? (I am presuming the ignorance of the Dark Gods, was a way the Emporer started to kill them off, as described by the shadow daemon that meets horus in The Galaxy Burns)? But I dunna my speculation :L

[Azrell]

In the book legion, it was believed that if Horus had won humanity would die out, but if he lost humanity would stagnate and die a long slow death... maybe the emperor knew that no matter what he did humanity was doomed. By letting the heresy get to where it did he set a chain of events in motion that would prolong it as long as possible.

It is said over and over again that the emperor did what he did to make humanity the dominant species in the galaxy. If he truly loved humanity like he was believed too, doomed or not he had to try, even if the only out come was doomed or less doomed.

[jorz192]

In the book legion, it was believed that if Horus had won humanity would die out, but if he lost humanity would stagnate and die a long slow death... maybe the emperor knew that no matter what he did humanity was doomed. By letting the heresy get to where it did he set a chain of events in motion that would prolong it as long as possible.

It is said over and over again that the emperor did what he did to make humanity the dominant species in the galaxy. If he truly loved humanity like he was believed too, doomed or not he had to try, even if the only out come was doomed or less doomed.

You sum it up nicely, I like the idea that the Emporer was, in the end, doing everything he could to save humanity.

[BlueRonin]

The original, Rogue Trader-era fluff was so heavily based on Frank Herbert's "Dune" that I don't think it's too far off base to consider a few of that setting's particulars when considering questions such as these. Of course it doesn't give you any answers, but I have always figured it helps explain what the authors were thinking when writing some of our background.

In Dune, the charcter that compares to the God-Emperor sets mankind upon "a Golden Path" in order to guide them through a highly volitile and extremely risky period of our spieces' evolution, which includes allowing mankind to suffer through some 'rather unpleasant times'.

That has always made me wonder if the God-Emperor knew that the entire Horus Heresy had to happen in order for his grander scheme to move forward - the survival of mankind as they emerge as a psychic race in a extremely hostile galaxy. It seems very unlikely the whole ordeal took him by surprise, but there is of course the idea that the God-Emperor most of it coming, but a few details caught him by surprise, which led events somewhat out of control.

[sneaky pete]

I've always had the impression that the Emperor had personal dealings with the Chaos gods (perhaps an understanding?), they knew him personally, that they had an agreement and that the Emperor had broken the terms of their agreement. I base this on snippets of things that are revealed in the HH series. Please don't ask for specifics...it's just the overall impression I get...plus all my HH books are on loan to a friend...

[sneaky pete]

...and if you go along with the belief that the Emperor is an amalgomation of the conciousness of all of the important philosophers/magi from Tera's history, he would have been developing/evolving at the same time as the Chaos gods (who are formed from humanity's concious/unconcious thoughts and emotions)...

...they might have had some dealings with each other...

...which just may not make sense since in Mechanicus, you see the Emperor in ancient Earth history as a General going off to fight a (supposed) C'Tan...and since there have been philosophers/magi after that time, the whole Emperor's development doesn't work...

...unless his is adding their conciousness to his after they die, then my arguement does work!

...getting a headache from this...must stop...

[JamesP]

In William King's original story on the Horus Heresy, which is told from the perspective of the Emperor and covers his decision to teleport to take the fight to Horus and the final duel with the Arch-Traitor, it describes the Emperor thinking to himself that he had reached the time which was the limit of his precognitive powers, the point beyond which he could not see.

There are a few copies of this posted on the net, the relevant quote is:

"He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognitive vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers? Is this where I die?"

Copies of the story at http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html (though watch out for pop-ups) and http://dakka.chat.ru/fict_heresy.html

The background to the Heresy and the Emperor has moved on from this so it may no longer be valid but it is still a very good read and I don't think it has been heaviluy contradicted by the new background fluff.

If true, the story suggests that the Emperor had foreknowledge of the events leading up to the final battle with Horus. He seems surprised that Horus had made a with Chaos ("How could Horus have done that, made a pact with the ultimate abomination?") which suggests that his foreknowledge was not absolute, he only saw some of the future rather than all of it.

Whether he used to have a perfect view of the future but it became cloudier as it approached the limit of his precognition, where it became totally obscured, who knows? It may be that the Reunification of Terra and the Great Crusade was so successful because its commander knew what was going to happen before it did, or perhaps the Emperor only saw some elements of the future.

More recent fluff certainly suggests that some actions by the Traitor Primarchs in the run up to open rebellion took him by surprise. Or maybe the Emperor did have total knowledge of the future up to a certain point in time but, like Dr Manhattan, was limited to just acting out his foreknowledge of events. If that was the case, he could only act when he didn't know the future.

[Xas]

Or all that has happened was foreseen and enacted as planned by the big old emperor?

It may sound stupid that his own death and century long unlife in the golden throne would be part of this but it wouldnt be the first story where a great hero/saint takes on suffering to help his people.


Maybe the way it worked out is the only chance humanity has to become an arch-race like the old ones without succumbing to their own emotions like the eldar did.

Maybe the infight and exposition to chaos in that early a stage of psychic evolution is the way to make humankind's unified soul aware of the real danger of chaos and only be fighting it for every inch of evolution mankind can hope to survive.



Or maybe the emperor foresaw the dangers which the tyranids (and their creators/masters from outside the galaxy ?!?) and c'tan mean and had to set motions in plan to destroy his own makeings because only the powers of chaos have the chance of stopping those eveng reater evils?

Cause finally mankind under the rule of chaos would still have the slimmest of chances of regaining their independence and strenghten as a race but there would be none of the nids/necrons just killed everyone and moved one.

[gubooboo]

or maybe the emperor already knew that horus and the other tratorous primarchs were corrupted by choas so by horus killing him the star child would be born and the chaos gods killed

Try to say that five times fast

[JamesP]

Or all that has happened was foreseen and enacted as planned by the big old emperor?

It may sound stupid that his own death and century long unlife in the golden throne would be part of this but it wouldnt be the first story where a great hero/saint takes on suffering to help his people.

Or maybe he did forsee everything and his own death and unlife was the best choice he could make. He didn't want to make that choice in any way, shape or form but knew that all of the alternatives would be far, far worse. His internment in the Golden Throne may have not been part of a plan, per se, but a horrific fate that he knew he would be unable to avoid. Now that would be a very, very depressing vision of the future for a person to have - and the Emperor would have had that vision in his head for millennia.

Now if the Emperor really did forsee how the Imperium would be post-Heresy and that was as he planned, the really worrying thing is that he thought that a brutal, dictatorial human empire built on superstition, the worst kind of repression and the deliberate promulgation of ignorance is the best option for humanity compared to all the others. And that's bad, I mean I know the 40K universe is an incredibly bad place to live but for such an empire to be the best way for humanity to survive...

Then again, maybe the Emperor really didn't like humanity that much after all and was leading them astray all along. He'd have to have some serious issues though :)

[Fellend]

I'd just like to point out that in 10 000 years since it's creators death, the original vision might have become slightly distorted...

[JamesP]

I'd just like to point out that in 10 000 years since it's creators death, the original vision might have become slightly distorted...

Definitely. In fact, you can see the original vision being distorted while the Emperor is still alive - the rise of the cult worshipping him (see Horus Rising and First Heretic) despite his strictly secular vision and the rise of Imperial bureaucracy and the hiding away of Knowledge (the opening bit of Mechanicum set on Terra and some of the flashbacks to Terra in Prospero Burns are just two examples.

I think the Emperor's original vision for humanity started to get at least slightly distorted very quickly after his 'death', the rapid rise of the church of the God-Emperor being a case in point, driven as it was by the Emperor apparently dying to save humanity from the Arch-Traitor Horus and being dedicated to sustaining the Imperium forever in his new state of living death.

GW depicts the Imperium in a way that many fantasy and sci-fi authors depict countries and empires: apart from wars and political problems, they don't change very much despite centuries and millennia passing. There is little cultural change/ evolution, little technological progress, even allowing for a repressive government overseeing it all.

I suspect that the Imperium as it is today, in terms of its overarching culture (as opposed to the way that culture is interpreted in slightly different ways on each planet) and the vision that its leaders have for it, is very similar to the Imperium as it was just after the Scouring, when the institutions and practices that still hold true in the 41st millennium had been firmly established or codified (Adeptus Terra, Codex Astartes, split between Guard and Navy, Inquisition, etc.).

[jorz192]

I prefer to think of the relationship between what the Emporer knew and what happened as comparable to the Oracle in the Matrix.

The Emporer could see into the future but he couldn't see past everything and the future wasn't a solid thing
there were variables that he could only guess at the outcome. Basically he couldn't really see past the choices that his sons would make.

My personal view is that Because he couldn't necessarily see past his sons' choices he chose to believe that they would make the right choice.
But in my weird perspective he failed when he didn't see his sons' weaknesses and the choices they made destroyed his vision of what might have been the utopian Imperium.

It's just my perspective, it's cool if someone can add to the idea.

[Wildeybeast]

In a flashback within 'Raven's Flight', the Emperor tells Corax he will 'never have to hide again' something Corax scoffs at given his situation on Istvaan. So either the Emperor didn't know what was going to happen, or he lied directly to his son's face. I think the former, why not warn him if he knew of the impending massacre?

[Calypso2ts]

It was pointed out earlier that much of the 40k background has foundations in the Dune series. I think it is important to view it as such (the prohibition on Thinking Machines comes to mind...). The Emperor is comparable to the 'God Emperor Leto.' In the Dune textsthe limitations of precognition are discussed and explored at length and it is described as:

"...could indeed see the Future, but you must understand the limits of this power. Think of sight. You have eyes, yet cannot see without light. If you are on the floor of a valley, you cannot see beyond your valley.....He tells us 'The vision of time is broad, but when you pass through it, time becomes a narrow door.' And always, he fought the temptation to choose a clear, safe course, warning 'That path leads ever down into stagnation.' "

Keeping this in mind it is not unreasonable to think the Emperor, while precognitive, could not be surprised. Also, the Emperor was playing a long game that more closely resembled Chess. 10,000 years is not so long in the context of the whole universe. I like to think of the decay and stagnation of man in the same way it was viewed by Leto, it is pressure applied to quash the human spirit and impart a lesson at the very genetic level across all of humanity. To quote Dune once again...

"When I set out to lead humankind along my Golden Path. I promised them a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern which humans deny with their words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, the condition they call peace. Even as they speak. they create the seeds of turmoil and violence. If they find their quiet security. they squirm in it. How boring they find it. Look at them now."

In the same way that Leto monopolized space travel in the Dune universe through control of the Spice, the corpse emperor is a tyrant whose presence (the astronomican) binds humanity close to him. His tyranny is the sole constant of their existence and they are bound to him with unbreakable chains of dependence. While the 40k universe doesn't offer peace it does offer absolute tyranny and repression. When the Emperor eventually expires and the Astronomicon fades into twighlight humanity will (I think) roar to new life and ambition. The freedom releasing the energy of 10+ millenia of absolute repression. I would be cautious if I were Xenos or traitor when this happens...

[JamesP]

...Keeping this in mind it is not unreasonable to think the Emperor, while precognitive, could not be surprised. Also, the Emperor was playing a long game that more closely resembled Chess. 10,000 years is not so long in the context of the whole universe. I like to think of the decay and stagnation of man in the same way it was viewed by Leto, it is pressure applied to quash the human spirit and impart a lesson at the very genetic level across all of humanity. To quote Dune once again...

I agree entirely that that 40K draws on Dune an awful lot - there's even a veiled reference to the Bene Gesserit pain box as one of the side effects of becoming a Sanctioned Psyker in Dark Heresy - "The skin on your right hand is horribly scarred. You are uncomfortable around bald, robed women"! - and that the Emperor is certainly playing a long game with humanity, and by extension all other species in the rest of the galaxy, driven by his precognition. Or at least, he might have been but perhaps isn't capable of it anymore.

The fluff that we have - and I appreciate that it is very little - indicate that the Emperor taken by surprise when Horus & co. rebelled, Magnus disrupted the wards protecting the dungeons of the Imperial Palace from a daemonic incursion from the webway, etc. Some fluff also indicates that the limits of his precognitive vision was reached during the Heresy.

The Emperor may well have been acting out a pre-planned long game prior to his near-death at the hands of Horus but I think after that the game was forced to change. As far as I know, there is no fluff indicating that he knew he would be crippled by Horus and forced to 'live' in the Golden Throne? The fluff also isn't very clear on how 'alive' / communicative / active the Emperor is since his near-death. Or how sane. The stagnation and opression of man might be a new long game by the Emperor but my personal view is that it's an unintended by-product of things just falling apart after his 'death'. It would also seem to contradict the utopian and secular Imperium that he was trying to build before the Heresy.

One answer might be that the Emperor is now very angry, malicious or insane and as a result is trying to teach humanity a lesson, or just punish it. But isn't that contradicted by him (sorry, Him) protecting and guiding humanity?

Then again, he could secretly have an Istvaanian view of the Imperium and believe that it becomes stronger through conflict. All speculation on my part, of course.

TBH, the Imperium is probably a majorly screwed-up, decaying and doomed culture because it's 40k and they're all meant to be like that...

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

They're was one theory, that the Emporer is waiting for the Psykers of the Universe to achieve a reasonable standard (as in most of the best now, would be the normal.). He would then forfit his role to these new Psykers, proably imparting himself upon them (like the original Seer's did to create the Emporer), so they would know what he knew? Or whatever else you can achieve/attain from a man who has been alive for around 40,000 years? I can't remember where this is from btw D:

[bocirish]

Not sure where I read it but I'm pretty sure Eldrad warned the Emperor about the tyranid threat and was ignored.

[Fellend]

The one very heretical question we must ask ourselves: Is the Emperor even alive? We have actually very little evidence to indicate that He is. I can't think of a single thing mentioned in any part of the fluff that makes me believe that He is alive in the material world. He might be somewhere in the warp as a deity or a very strong daemon-like being but if He even has the same emotions, needs or plans as He did as a "human"... I can't say. Maybe He is playing a completely different game now, maybe He has realize that He'll never return to His body and is purposefully trying to cultivate the Imperial cult to stay alive as a Deity or warp being.

[JamesP]

The one very heretical question we must ask ourselves: Is the Emperor even alive? We have actually very little evidence to indicate that He is. I can't think of a single thing mentioned in any part of the fluff that makes me believe that He is alive in the material world. He might be somewhere in the warp as a deity or a very strong daemon-like being but if He even has the same emotions, needs or plans as He did as a "human"... I can't say. Maybe He is playing a completely different game now, maybe He has realize that He'll never return to His body and is purposefully trying to cultivate the Imperial cult to stay alive as a Deity or warp being.

There's a lot of debate about how alive/ dead, sentient/ mindless, active in the real world/ active in the Warp the Emperor is ('debate' also includes a lot of arguing on message boards and forums :) ). The background says that he hasn't moved or (verbally) spoken in millennia but it is unclear how active a role he takes in directing the Imperium.

He is certainly still psychically active - directing the Astronomicon, creating Astropaths through Soul-Binding empowering Sisters and other faithful through miracles via his psychic power, and warning and guiding his servants through the Imperial Tarot. It could be argued that some of this could be done on 'automatic pilot' and doesn't indicate sentience - the High Lords just expose a bunch of psykers to the Emperor's presence and 'zap"!', they're Soul-Bound - but the latter two examples - helping Sisters to achieve specific Acts of Faith in specific situations and guiding users of the Tarot to what might occur in the future - I would say show some initiative and would need intelligence behind them.

Some background material shows him psychically 'facing off' against other warp entities - Waaargh the Orks!has him trying to warn off Gork & Mork from launching another Waargh (they ignore him) - and that would require intelligence too so I think it is safe to assume that he is 'alive' and active in the Warp.

But how active is he in the material world? Does the Emperor speak - psychically, not physically - with the High Lords, the Custodes, etc.? He guides his Imperium through visions & miracles, the Tarot and the institutions he set up before his internment in the Golden Throne, but does he have the equivalent of cabinet meetings with the High Lords and say "reinforce Cadia, send Yarrick back to Armageddon and tell Calgar to get off his blue-armoured arse and smash the Tau once and for all?"

[Fellend]

That last sentence made me laugh =).

[JamesP]

That last sentence made me laugh =).

TBH, if I'd been in a state of half-dead constant utter agony for 10,000 years, sacrificing myself to preserve humanity who thank me by making a complete mess of my it-was-supposed-to-be-a-progressive-secular-utopia and feeding me a monotonous diet of too-weak-to-live psykers every single day, I wouldn't be even that polite.

I'd just be shouting, "Calgar! The Tau! Power Fist them all in the head! Now! No more hanging about!"