Horus Heresy: The Emperor had it comin'!

[KnightShift]

I just started reading the Horus Heresy novels. Starting with TALES OF HERESY. Thought that might be a good way to ease into what's coming.

And in that book I read the short story "The Last Church". And you know what?

The Emperor of Mankind really is a scumbag and the Heresy is more his fault than I can possibly describe.

Based on that story and what little I know of the Horus Heresy, I'm beginning to think that the whole thing was a natural reaction to the Emperor's supreme act of egotism... if not outright divine intervention. Humans will NEVER be able to let go of their natural drive to look for something beyond themselves. Whether that's in religion or enlightenment of some other form. For one man, even one as allegedly "ascended" as the Emperor, to declare that to be obsolete and unneeded...

Yeah, it was a disaster waiting to happen. And now the Imperium is getting its just deserts for the Emperor's folly.

I'm now thinking of making my own chapter of Space Marines that are secretly Jewish, like the hidden Jews in the final Dune novel that Frank Herbert wrote. Just my own way of saying "up yours" to the Emperor and that no man can ever completely destroy faith, while also acknowledging that *maybe* he's realized the mistake he's made and is trying to own up to it.

(Well, make them either Jewish or Amish :) )

[BlueRonin]

In principle, wouldn't that be repeating the Word Bearers story arch? The idea of Astartes embracing a religious outlook in an enforced secular organization?

On the other hand, if they are a later founding chapter whose religious outlook develops into a singular god that is NOT the Emperor... well, wouldn't that make them heretical traitors by default? Even if they kept it secret from the Inquisition - whyw ould they continue to fight for the Emperor if they were devoted to another god?

[KnightShift]

Maybe there needs to be a third faction of humanity then: not for the Emperor or for Chaos.

I'd be down for that :)

[BlueRonin]

There are quite a few human planets / populations that belong to neither (Imperium / Chaos), existing either beyond the reach of the Imperium (unexplored, warp storms, logistical short-comings, etc) or fighting for their independence. They haven't necessary thrown their lot in with Chaos just because they are independent.

I guess if you really stretch it an independent planet / system could support the recruitment and logistical needs of a renegade chapter - neither having turned to Chaos. However, there better be a good reason for them being able to exist out of Inquisitorial reach. I'm sure they would love to make an example out of such a heretical state of affairs ;)

[krispy]

The soul drinkers series of books shows them as near renegade marines, they were tempted by chaos but fought back and are instead renegades that have been removed from the history books - if i was going to make a new chapter then i would consider doing them because it would be pretty fun to model them.....

anyway - yeah i can think that the emperor had it coming ;)

[BlueRonin]

What I'm curious about is whether the Emperor has such a long-sighted vision that it has all been according to design? That everything since (and including) the Horus Heresy was manipulated into being as part of a grand scheme to protect the evolution of mankind in a psychic race :)

Frank Herbert all the way! :)

[Jearden]

I agree (if the Emperor didnt plan the whole thing) then he did have it coming.

In a lot of ways tho, I think the Emperor planned it. I think tho that he got caught in his own trap. Im a believer that the Emperor wants to die, that he is stuck in the Golden Throne, wanting to escape but being kept alive by his own mechanism. Now weather he is trying to manipulte someone on the outside to help him, I dont know, but it seems to me the ultimate irony that he is stuck there.

[Dosadi]

I think the emperor did plan the whole thing right down to his own death at the hands of Horus. What I don’t think he foresaw was the immediate aftermath of his death. I think he assumed he would die, and thus be reborn as the “Star Child”; essentially a cosmic being. He was preparing mankind for that event. Knowing that his death and rebirth was his next phase of evolution and it would be necessary in order to sheppard mankind towards their destiny.
However, mankind had different plans for the Emperor. They encased him in the Golden Throne and sustained his life artificially and began worshiping him as a god. Al the emperor’s effort to create a purely secular society were undone by his own apparent divinity, if he hadn’t been so damn perfect people wouldn’t have turned him into a god. As a result he was never able to be reborn, we got ten thousand years of the Imperium and mankind is further away from their destiny than ever.


So ya, he had it coming.:p


Dosadi

[darth_papi76]

I think the Emperor was planning something big and then got caught napping with his pants down around his ankles. But the idea that he was caught by his own trap is an interesting one. I hope they bring back the sensei and star child fluff.

[Emperorsmercy]

Or possibly, we think about it too much. :D

[ThePov]

Or possibly, we think about it too much. :D
Well, maybe, but that's half the fun, ain't it? If they didn't want us to think too much about it, they wouldn't have given us too much to think about, now would they? :p

Anyway, yeah. I think whether the Big E had it coming or not depends on your point of view. From a human point of view, yes, some of the crap he pulled is inexcusable, as is a lot of the crap he was going to pull, but from a cold and calculating Old One's point of view (i.e. His), then no, he had avery good reason for evrything he did and the ends justify the means. It's just ironic that those means ended up stopping the ends and becoming an ends unto themselves.

[xomntec]

i like how the Eldar always refer to him like he's Lloyd Christmas

[Hikaru-119]

Personally I tihnk it is a great joke that here we have a guy that says religion is obsolete and ends up being the main thing that is worshipped by his empire.

[KnightShift]

Personally I tihnk it is a great joke that here we have a guy that says religion is obsolete and ends up being the main thing that is worshipped by his empire.

Dang! That sounds like it could be a classic episode of the original The Twilight Zone! :eek:

(fade from black)

EMPEROR OF MANKIND: "We have achieved Unity! We have thrown down and cast aside everything that has held humanity down throughout the centuries! At last we have ascended to embrace logic, science, reason. The old gods are no more! My fellow men, put away your faith in things unseen! I, your Emperor, have ended humanity's enslavement to religion now and for ALL TIME!"

(sideways cut to Rod Serling, lit cigarette in hand)

ROD SERLING: "The time: Thirty Thousand A.D. The place: a planet once called Earth, now known only as Terra. This man calls himself the Emperor of Mankind. He has just conquered the entire world with a vast army, and has claimed to have done nothing less than to have killed God. But our Emperor is soon to discover that nature abhors a vacuum. Human nature even more so. A hard lesson that will be learned here and now... in the Twilight Zone."

(fast forward 23 minutes later, and we see the Emperor enslaved to the Golden Throne, now worshiped as a god himself)

ROD SERLING: "Submitted for your approval: the Emperor of Mankind..."

:D

[Shadow Queen]

Who made him the Emperor in the first place?

Leaving it all to the Warmaster while he sits on his backside and takes all the credit.

[Arnihs]

^ a couple of Shaman who saw the future sacrifice themselves in some sort of ritual to give birth to the empeor then again its actually concrete how.

my thought about the Emperor(most beloved) is why he couldn't tell the primarchs about the true nature of the warp and the Daemons/gods who lie within. did he honestly think the keeping them oblivious would some how cause them to be immune to whisper of chaos? Also why not make an alliance with the Eldar ?

[Shadow Queen]

As the song goes "Hindsight is always 20/20."

[BlueRonin]

Personally I tihnk it is a great joke that here we have a guy that says religion is obsolete and ends up being the main thing that is worshipped by his empire.

Buddha?

[Duke]

Buddha?

lol, too true.

[Alzer]

What I find amusing is reading about how the Emperor treated certain primarchs when he first found them. Except for Fulgrim, and maybe AlphariusOmegon, he TOTALLY screwed all those that fell to chaos. (see also: "my real daddy stabbed my fake daddy" and "No son you can't lead your army in a glorious final charge") And you wonder WHY they decide chaos is a better choice than their jerk father.

After that I blame that one Chaplain, he is an evil tool and it's all his fault. Erebus or whatever?

[Ulag Grimskar]

What I find amusing is reading about how the Emperor treated certain primarchs when he first found them. Except for Fulgrim, and maybe AlphariusOmegon, he TOTALLY screwed all those that fell to chaos. (see also: "my real daddy stabbed my fake daddy" and "No son you can't lead your army in a glorious final charge") And you wonder WHY they decide chaos is a better choice than their jerk father.

After that I blame that one Chaplain, he is an evil tool and it's all his fault. Erebus or whatever?

That is just so true....
Especially when you read the Index Astartes articles from WD a few years past, with fluff on all the chapters of the First Founding. The E just too obviously screwed things up with some of them....

[lauran]

I think the emperor did plan the whole thing right down to his own death at the hands of Horus. What I don’t think he foresaw was the immediate aftermath of his death. I think he assumed he would die, and thus be reborn as the “Star Child”; essentially a cosmic being. He was preparing mankind for that event. Knowing that his death and rebirth was his next phase of evolution and it would be necessary in order to sheppard mankind towards their destiny.
However, mankind had different plans for the Emperor. They encased him in the Golden Throne and sustained his life artificially and began worshiping him as a god. Al the emperor’s effort to create a purely secular society were undone by his own apparent divinity, if he hadn’t been so damn perfect people wouldn’t have turned him into a god. As a result he was never able to be reborn, we got ten thousand years of the Imperium and mankind is further away from their destiny than ever.


So ya, he had it coming.:p


Dosadi

Wasn't the Emperor's last order that Dorn should take him to the golden throne, so he could keep the imperial acces to the webway closed so no deamons could enter. Maybe he underestimated the powers of chaos, and one of the gods (tzeentch?) maybe, clouded his godlike vision. so maybe he couldn't foresee wat was coming.

And if he wanted to die why take 30000 years to build a galaxy spanning empire only so a civil war can erupt and your own child possessed by chaos could kill you?

[Grotzooka]

What I find amusing is reading about how the Emperor treated certain primarchs when he first found them. Except for Fulgrim, and maybe AlphariusOmegon, he TOTALLY screwed all those that fell to chaos. (see also: "my real daddy stabbed my fake daddy" and "No son you can't lead your army in a glorious final charge") And you wonder WHY they decide chaos is a better choice than their jerk father.

After that I blame that one Chaplain, he is an evil tool and it's all his fault. Erebus or whatever?

I don't know if they ALL got screwed...
Lets see...
Fulgrim: Not screwed.
Perturabo: His Legion got turned into a garrison force. Somewhat screwed.
Konrad Curze: No idea, actually.
Angron: Didn't get to die gloriously. Then again, didn't die. A tiny bit of screwage.
Mortarion: As far as I know, not screwed.
Magnus: Rebuffed for using psykers, then attacked. Screwed.
Horus: Doted upon, loved, cherished, given command of the entire military. NOT SCREWED AT ALL.
Lorgar: Told he wasn't supposed to worship the Emperor. Not really screwed.
Alpharius/Omegon: Not screwed.

So, all in all, 2 1/2 screwed, 5 1/2 not. And then Konrad.

And, yes, Erebus is completly at fault. I really hope he ends up dying horribly. :D

[Vuron]

[SPOILERS FROM 5-6 NOVELS BELOW]



And, yes, Erebus is completly at fault. I really hope he ends up dying horribly. :D

So do I.

But he is still alive in the 40k universe. See the Word Bearer novels.

------------
The twist introduced in the HH novels is that the Emperor is forcing atheism which (pinky to mouth) is directly opposite of what religion in 40k is all about. Personally I think the Emperor is human with human frailties (despite being a Ubermensch). A predominant fault being ego.

The Emperor was so self absorbed with making his own webway (which to my mind was to reduce reliance on the Warp and slow human evolution) that he did not foresee what transpired with Horus or the outcome of his battle with Horus. Ultimately however he put himself in the Golden Throne which he built as part of the webway and thereafter directed Rogal Dorn to place him in.

In a way he gets what is coming to him with the devil deal he had with Chaos to steal the primarchs a plan I believe he devised to "finish" his primarchs and to spur on the crusade.

However BL ends up writing the story of the Emperor (and I want some more of the Emperor talking and being a character as in The Last Church) I wouldn't be surprised if he did plan his own religion (and thus exterminated all others) the way he created the priesthood of Mars. However for now based on the loose canon the Emperor being a deity was not his plan.

[Xas]

actually alpharius/omegon got screwed really really bad by that conclave thing. thats what you get from believing xenos!


and tbh I think the emperor is at fault all to himself. had he told his children about the nature of chaos, the warpd and the primordial predators/ruinous powers/chaosgods horus would not have fallen for their plot.

[Prometheus]

Its my opinon that the Emperor not only knew what would happen (the Heresy and the following war) but was planning on it. I think that the Emperor is the truel Greater Chaos God. The God of Chaos Undivided. Think about it becuase of the Emperorall the bad things that are happening in the 40k universe now are happening. Its his fault, he saw it coming or he wasn't as powerful a pysker as he claimed. I think his only screw up is that the other gods plotted against him and got him stuck in that rotting body trapped in the material realm and unable to get into the Warp and claim all the power he has created for himself over these years.

[bryce963]

Blind ignorant faith sure is a good defense agasint thinking... and thinking leads to questions.. and questions lead to exploration... and the gods love for someone to happen upon them.

Also, it may have been for adminitrative purposes too, a galaxy spanning empire of trillions of people, where 99% are uneducated and devoutly religious= easy to motivate them to work hard for next to nothing, go to war to die by the millions, and never question thier betters, epsecially the church. For a great example on a smaller scale, see Europe from the fall of Rome to the Renaissance.

[Excalibur]

The Emperor really screwed up with Magnus
he was perhaps the most loyal and certainly the smartest, except for maybe the Alpharius duo but the Emperor condemned him and destroyed his planet. Really, the whole Heresy would have been much different if he had listened to Magnus so in a way he did get what was coming to him.

[Mike X]

I just started reading the Horus Heresy novels. Starting with TALES OF HERESY. Thought that might be a good way to ease into what's coming.

Bad idea. 'Tales of Heresy' references other Horus Heresy books. Personally, I've read them all in chronological order, and I recommend that to others. You basically skipped ahead in some ways.

[Drax]

after Galaxy in flames no reason to read them in order...

[Mike X]

after Galaxy in flames no reason to read them in order...

People say that but it's not true. There is a reason: For the purposes of understanding and appreciating the references.

The story arc doesn't continue, it just stays in one place in time for the most part, but the books reference each other in a chronological context and manner.

[Inquisitor Soren]

WARNING SPOILER FOLLOW

The question: Did the Emperor have it coming?

Answer: Yes, It is quite obvious that the Emperor is not as omnipotent as he is claimed to be, even Tzeench is unable to know the entire future, twas why he created the Oracle the strands of fate are simply to many to be grasped with any percision, even the Eldar are wrong with some regularity and can only precieve massive events, and near futures correct?

If the Emperor was able to precieve the entirety of the furture he would be, more than likely, stronger than the Chaos God of Change and Fate, right? So why not simply marshal all his power and join the eternal war within the warp? Most likely because he simply can't, or is not powerful as of yet.

As well, if the Emperor was as omnipotent as we are led to believe he would be aware of the other dimensions, such as those that the Necrons use to traverse space and teleport.

All these things lead us to the point that the Emperor is simply not omnipotent and therefore, most likey, still a flawed human being who massively botched in several areas of his plan and desperately tried to preform a patchwork solution. His treatment of his 'sons' was so massively varied that it was most likely influenced by emotion, as Horus was the first and he was such devistatingly worried that his plan had be severly damaged he was extatic to have found him.

As he found more of his 'sons' he grew less concerned with the survival of the still lost ones and turned towards completing his plans, as Horus was the first 'son' that he found and the two spent so much time together he naturaly trusted Horus more than anyone, and the Gods knew this and therefore aimed at the chink in his armor.

Due to the treatment and gradual lose of interest in his 'sons', they ultimately became easy prey to the Gods, we see once again the Emperor's emotions getting the best of him when Mangus casts his spell to warn him he proved he didn't truly care for his 'children' sending brother to kill brother and ignore the warning in favor of his trust placed in his favored son, and more than anything his trusted friend, Horus. And so the Emperor forged the blade for the Chaos Gods to wield in nearly slaying himself.

Now I find myself compeled to move onto the 'present' 40k, the Emperor being worshiped as a God, in theroy the more followers a God has and the more faith they possess in him/it/her, the stronger they are, so as the entire Imperium follows the Emperor they lend him his mighty psychic might, enough to rival the Gods and continually push them back from invading the material realm in mass. Neat huh? This is why the Chaos Gods strike at the population centers of the Imperium because souls are power and every soul that the Emperor is deprived of is another blow against him, and if they can convert a few to their cause even better. Ultimately it comes down to the war for the human souls, no single soul but every flicker in the darkness of the warp. As the 'nids move to disolve the galaxy they will undoutibly release massive amounts of souls into the warp, which, in theroy, could increase the strength of the Emperor, hopefully at least. But they aren't the only ones after souls, the Dark Eldar prey on humans and other races to sustain themselves and the Ctan (not assuming all necrons are loyal to them) wish to consume all those souls, and seal the warp from reality. And the Eldar are attempting to form a new God of their own, and we haven't yet seen if the hivemind is actually a God of its own or a massive being. Oh and don't forget the orks, Wazdaka wishes to start his grand never ending Waaagh! from one end of the galaxy to other.

Either way it looks like the Warp is gonna get crowded, 40k has only just begun...(Now lets hope GW progresses the story...)

Wow, did I digress or what? ^^

[KnightShift]

Bad idea. 'Tales of Heresy' references other Horus Heresy books. Personally, I've read them all in chronological order, and I recommend that to others. You basically skipped ahead in some ways.

In all honesty the only part of Tales of Heresy that I've read is the short story "The Last Church". When I heard what it was about I bought the book just for that. The idea of the very last church on Terra greatly intrigued me. And just on the merit of that one story, it left me hankering for more :)

I'll go back and read the book cover to cover once I've caught up with the Horus Heresy proper (am now on False Gods).

[Prometheus]

The Emperor really screwed up with Magnus
he was perhaps the most loyal and certainly the smartest, except for maybe the Alpharius duo but the Emperor condemned him and destroyed his planet. Really, the whole Heresy would have been much different if he had listened to Magnus so in a way he did get what was coming to him.

Good call on Magnus. All the Emperor had to do was listen to him, then punish him and the whole thing would have ended up differently.

[ThePov]

Good call on Magnus. All the Emperor had to do was listen to him, then punish him and the whole thing would have ended up differently.
Well, to be honest, the Emperor did have reason to get ticked (Magnus's pyschic message destroyed all the pyschic wards around Terra and messed up the Emperor's pjoect in the Webway), and the way I heard it was that the Emperor only asked Leman Russ to bring Magnus to him, it was Horus who suggested that Leman Russ kill Magnus.