Dark Eldar - Crucible of Malediction Question

[row]

Hi guys,

Crucible of Malediction = Once per game instead of shooting, every enemy Psyker within 3D6" must pass a leadership test or be removed from play, no saves.

Does this affect a Psyker in a vehicle?

Also on a side note, this could devestate the new Grey Knight armies. The majority of models have Psyker abilites.
Get a hammie(s) in amongst them and pop the Crucible :D

[steelmage99]

Hi guys,

Does this affect a Psyker* a vehicle?



Why don't you fix that sentence so it says what you meant it to. Either insert an "in" or a "that is" at the *

[row]

Why don't you fix that sentence so it says what you meant it to. Either insert an "in" or a "that is" at the *

sentence fixed

thank you for correcting my grammatical mistake ;)

[Necron_Lord]

It absolutely affects psykers as vehicles (Furioso Librarians) and psykers embarked in transports as no specific model is targeted. There is nothing in the DE FAQ which says otherwise. Of course, GW might reverse itself and change the rule RAW like they did for Power from Pain (nerf) and the Void Mine (buff).

[row]

What makes me think that it does not affect pskyers in transports is the GW's Doom of Malantai ruling.

hope im wrong tho.

[steelmage99]

What makes me think that it does not affect pskyers in transports is the GW's Doom of Malantai ruling.

hope im wrong tho.

This is was I am thinking as well.

That was why, from where I am standing, the "in" / "that is" had a big impact on the answer. :)

[row]

That was I am thinking as well.

That was why, from where I am standing, the "in" / "that is" had a big impact on the answer. :)

yep, late night and fast typing contributed to my mistake

[DrLove42]

Also on a side note, this could devestate the new Grey Knight armies. The majority of models have Psyker abilites.
Get a hammie(s) in amongst them and pop the Crucible :D

If the leaked codex is correct, then its not as effective as you think.

It says attacks that only target pyskers only hit the Justicar in the squad, or if hes dead, one of the regular dudes. SO can only kill 1 guy per squad

And yes it should affect vehicles! They're being driven by physic pilots...but not sure how you'd roll over the toughness of an armour 12/12/12 vehicle!

[Xas]

If the leaked codex is correct, then its not as effective as you think.

It says attacks that only target pyskers only hit the Justicar in the squad, or if hes dead, one of the regular dudes. SO can only kill 1 guy per squad

And yes it should affect vehicles! They're being driven by physic pilots...but not sure how you'd roll over the toughness of an armour 12/12/12 vehicle!

its not a thoughness test, its a psychic test.

I'm so waiting for the first time I drive up with my ~80pts haemi, pop the crucible and have a landraider /w paladins and draigon inside pop because the vehicle rolled a 11. hell it will be funny even if its just a rhino full of normal doods :D

the nice fact is that it doesnt do a wound but removes from play directly so no shenanigans for vehicles to get around it!

[row]

A Psykic test requires a leadership value. Vehicles do not have this, so it wont affect the vehicle itself, only the psyker(s) inside.

[steelmage99]

Some vehicles do, especially those that are psyker-related (See Librarian-Furioso).

It is not too far a stretch to imagine GKs might have some equal effect assigned to their psyker pilots.

[Archon Charybdis]

Eh, that's murky. The crucible requires a Leadership test, not a psychic test. However, the Librarian Dread's rule reads "counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes". Arguably, a rule that requires psykers to take a test or die constitutes a "psychic purpose." I would certainly like to see those smug, inexplicably AV13, WS6, and Psyker *******s get what's comin' to them, but it's not really clear.

[DarkLink]

Well, for the purposes of psychic tests, Gk vehicles are ld 10.

Of course, it's pointless to argue over the details of a rule that might change when the actual book comes out.

[Necron_Lord]

What makes me think that it does not affect pskyers in transports is the GW's Doom of Malantai ruling.

hope im wrong tho.

The power that the DoM uses says that it only affects non-vehicle units while the CoM has no such restriction. Psyker vehicles typically have Ld 10 for their psychic tests, so I suppose they would test using that. There is plenty of precedent of Psychic powers being used embarked in vehicles and affecting units outside. Think of the SW and SM rune weapons and psychic hoods and Runes of Warding for Craftworlders.

Until an FAQ comes out saying otherwise, I think the answer is 'yes'. Too bad we can only have one. Heh

[thecactusman17]

If I remember correctly, the reason why DoM was FAQd to not affect units in transports was because of the likely potential to lose enough models to force a morale test, which would have taken up all sorts of additional rules to clarify.

I would say that yes, psyker-only tests are perfectly fine.

I would further state that for vehicle-psykers (such as the furioso librarian) the power works as described, if the vehicle is a transport then it takes a penetrating hit (just to resolve any questions about "what happens to the crew?")

[dannyat2460]

The librarian is only Ld10 for use of Psy powers it is not Ld 10 so the crucibal has no affect but yes i see no problem with it affecting psykers inside transport until any faq

[Xas]

the crucible affects furioso librarian dreadnoughts. check your BA codex/FAQ.

"Q: A Furioso Librarian counts as being Leadership 10 for
all psychic purposes. What exactly does this mean? (p29)
A: It means that for Psychic tests, for using a psychic hood
and for being affected by psychic powers, special rules or
wargear that affect psykers and require a Leadership
value, they are counted as being Leadership 10."

from
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620224a_Blood_Angels_Version_1_1.pdf


there would be no other reason than GW's inconsistency for GK psyker vehicles not to be affected by it.
knowing GW we still have a good chance that it will again be worded in such a way as to require a FAQ.

[DarkLink]

The question isn't so much about leadership as what the Crucible actually does to psykers. I've never heard of something removing a vehicle as a casualty before:rolleyes:.

[Archon Charybdis]

The question isn't so much about leadership as what the Crucible actually does to psykers. I've never heard of something removing a vehicle as a casualty before:rolleyes:.

Who said casualty? It says "removed from play."

[Necron_Lord]

Who said casualty? It says "removed from play."

Exactly. It's like Jaws of the World Wolf. If you fail the test, you go off of the table with no saves of any kind allowed. That shouldn't cause problems if the psyker is a vehicle.

[DrLove42]

The question isn't so much about leadership as what the Crucible actually does to psykers. I've never heard of something removing a vehicle as a casualty before:rolleyes:.

Can try and play it as the pilot is removed from play...but the vehicle, machine spirit, weapons crew etc are all ok, so the vehicle counts as being imobilised

[isotope99]

I do have trouble imagining the vehicle vanishing and the passengers riding along on nothing like something from a road runner cartoon ;)

[somerandomdude]

I do have trouble imagining the vehicle vanishing and the passengers riding along on nothing like something from a road runner cartoon ;)

Well, there's the real question. If GK transports are indeed Psykers, and this happens to a GK transport, what happens to the passengers?

I'd have to say that they're removed from play as well. There are rules for disembarking passengers when a vehicle wrecks or explodes, but not when one is removed from play. They may decided to FAQ it, but as it stands now, there's no way to disembark the passengers of a "removed from play" vehicle.

[Xas]

Well, there's the real question. If GK transports are indeed Psykers, and this happens to a GK transport, what happens to the passengers?

I'd have to say that they're removed from play as well. There are rules for disembarking passengers when a vehicle wrecks or explodes, but not when one is removed from play. They may decided to FAQ it, but as it stands now, there's no way to disembark the passengers of a "removed from play" vehicle.


this is correct.

you "remove the vehicle from play" and place it whever you store the stuff that is no longer in play (back in the figure transport, on the physical table but outside of the playing table, on the floor under the table,...).

as the transport no longer is anywhere on the table the passengers cannot be placed within 2" to any entry points nor within 2" to the vehicles hull (emergency disembark) and so cannot leave the transport (which is off the table until the start of the next game).


you COULD argue around VP/KP (and I didnt fancy re-reading the rules for them) but there is not the slimmest chance in hell that the passengers will get onto the playing field if their transport goes psy-whoosh to the crucible (without a direct rule in the GK dex or future faq/errate concearning the crucible of course).



and that the problem is new isnt an excuse to run around like a headless chicken and question a rules situation that is perfectly clear. I dont remember people argueing that an ork doesnt get a cover save for their kustom fircefield just because the firing model was standing behind the bigmek or other crap like that back then when it was a new occurance that wargear gives out cover saves just for beeing there!


edit: the issue of transports beeing removed from play isnt any new to beginn with. If you have experience with apocalypse you'll shurely have seen landraiders get sucked in by vortex-grenades. in more than 100 games I've never ever seen anyone argue that their stuff can disembark in that situation (might have something to do with the mocking way the vortex-rule is written and basically saying everyone trying to get away from the rule is a tard!)

[DarkLink]

Well, seeing as the codex is not actually out yet I would hold of on any judgement. GW might realize that this issue exists and include some form of clarification, or some way of phrasing a rule that affects the outcome. Knowing GW they won't, but who knows.

[Ahrimaneus]

I believe one of the initial questions involved whether or not the CoM affects psykers embarked in vehicles.

Based on GW's precedents set through a number of different ways (psychic powers targeting units in vehicles, orders targeting units in vehicles, Doom of Malan'tai affecting units in vehicles) I'd say if he's embarked on a transport, the CoM doesn't work.

[BuFFo]

It absolutely affects psykers as vehicles (Furioso Librarians) and psykers embarked in transports as no specific model is targeted. There is nothing in the DE FAQ which says otherwise. Of course, GW might reverse itself and change the rule RAW like they did for Power from Pain (nerf) and the Void Mine (buff).

Power From Pain most certainly got a buff.

Crucible affects units in vehicles. Crucible affects vehicles which have a psychic ability as well.


The question isn't so much about leadership as what the Crucible actually does to psykers. I've never heard of something removing a vehicle as a casualty before:rolleyes:.

You have now.

I believe one of the initial questions involved whether or not the CoM affects psykers embarked in vehicles.

Based on GW's precedents set through a number of different ways (psychic powers targeting units in vehicles, orders targeting units in vehicles, Doom of Malan'tai affecting units in vehicles) I'd say if he's embarked on a transport, the CoM doesn't work.

If you are in a vehicle trying to cast a power, you are affected by Hoods. Why not a Crucible? What about Shadows in the Warp? Eldar Stone thingies?

I see no reason the Crucible can't do it as well.

[DarkLink]

Actually Shadow in the Warp doesn't affect units in vehicles, according to the FAQ. Runes of Warding and Hoods do, though. Funny ruling, that.

[BuFFo]

Actually Shadow in the Warp doesn't affect units in vehicles, according to the FAQ. Runes of Warding and Hoods do, though. Funny ruling, that.

Thank you for correcting me.

I do not play Tyranids, so I assume this is just one of the many 'nerfs' my friend talks about when it comes to the nid faq....

Luckily, Dark Eldar didn't suffer the same fate.

[somerandomdude]

While that hurts, it's also the fact that Hoods can work inside a vehicle.

So, my 12" range defense can't get through your vehicle hulls, but your 24" range defense can.

[BuFFo]

While that hurts, it's also the fact that Hoods can work inside a vehicle.

So, my 12" range defense can't get through your vehicle hulls, but your 24" range defense can.

GW makes sure their fagship marine armies are always stronger than xenos, so that little johnny has a better chance of winning games.

[steelmage99]

Spahz Mahreenz Hurr.