Removes from Play - G, B or U?

[DrLove42]

Good, Bad or Ugly?

More and more now with the new wave of codexes are unit with powers that "remove units from play". They used to be more subtle (turning players to Squigs or Chaos Spawns on a single test) but now they just outright hand them out.

Things like JotWW, the DE Shattershard and all the beardy s**t that the GK are rumoured to get are getting more common as codex advance, and just seem to be a blatant way of getting round the Eternal Warrior rule.

Take Abaddon for instance. To my knowledge the most expensive IC the game has (I think). The ultimate Chaos Space Marine, over 10,000 years of experience in the field of battle. Rightly so this bad *** has Eternal Warrior. No tank shell will kill him outright. He could be stepped on my a Imperator Titan or blasted with a gun that opens a warp portal inside his body and sucks half his molecules into another dimension and he'd get an invulnerable save and even if he failed would laugh at you as you take off one wound.

Now though. A Hemonculi comes up to him, puts a template on his head. Take a toughness test of die. Oh you rolled 1 dice and got a 6? Sorry hes completly gone. Your 3-400 IC of indestrucibleness has been removed by 1 dice roll and a 25 point piece of wargear. The GK codex brings even more of these to the table (apparantly). Kill a Justicar in CC? If he passes a leadership test (i'm guessing at Ld9-10) and your dude is removed with no saves. Walked to close to Stern? Whoops you dead.

Now personally I think the trend of "removes from play" is a truely terrible thing. And you probably feel it more as it happens to you...when your 3 carnifaxes and a Trygon disappera because they didn't pass an Initative test its gonna hurt. But with the clear eye of being out of battle how do you feel about these game changers?

As the GW blog has posted this week IC are the heart and soul of an army, named or unnamed. Being immune to ID made some of them special, made them worth their points cost, so when you captain isn't insta-gibbed by a Leman Russ, or a missile you don't feel as bad.

What are your thoughts on this new power? Seperating the new codexes even more from old ones (and i'm not talking Codex creep, just an evolution to the game) and with the gap as big as it is in some places (Necrons and Sisters i'm looking at you) is that right? Is removed from play going to be a whole new section in the 6th ed rule book?

Thoughts People?

TL;DR - Removes from play. Ain't it a *****?

[gcsmith]

I think overall its good, against some armies once someone like abaddon gets in its almost impossible to win. So they put somthing in the books to give u a CHANCE to counter, regardless of how low the chance is.

[Morgan Darkstar]

i think its a rule that for good or ill is not nearly as earth shattering as you make it out to be + in regards to eternal warrior it is pretty much a SM only rule and as i dont take Named IC's in my SM army it wont affect me.

[isotope99]

Generally, I strongly dislike removes from play in most cases. I'll give an exception to zogwort's curse because he's an expensive SC in a crowded Ork HQ section and the power isn't hugely reliable.

The main reason being, as you say, it breaks the heroic narrative of the game when a player can just spirit a model off of the board, even if they've got invulnerable saves and eternal warrior. I'd much prefer "suffers X wounds with no saves of any kind allowed" as this doesn't automatically slaughter big nasties with lots of wounds.

The shattershard then becomes take a toughness test or suffer a wound, or D3 wounds etc. with no save of any kind allowed. Still lethal against rank and file and painful versus other characters/monsters but not auto-death.

[doom-kitten]

Never have a problem with it Zogwort tried it on Celestine once but it failed and she cut him into ribbons, rolling a 1 on a dice is well 1-6 and depending upon killing someone like abaddon with one die roll is kinda silly, I consider "removed from table" annoying but it's not so bad sometimes it's to only option you got. Considering it only happens to IC models your oppenent has to be pretty ballsy and get close to your character to do it, it often means death for the model attempting the sneaky trick as most IC chars statline means 5 outta six times there gonna pass that dice roll or if it's a leaderdhip test most uber ICs are Ld 9-10 anyways or even fearless making it less threatening just because it happens once doesn't mean it's a broken an OP rule.

[Lockark]

The shattershard then becomes take a toughness test or suffer a wound, or D3 wounds etc. with no save of any kind allowed. Still lethal against rank and file and painful versus other characters/monsters but not auto-death.

It's Accualy a Wound Test.

=U

Not likely to kill a fex, but able to devastate a Terminator Squad.
(Witch isn't a bad thing. Other wise Dark Eldar kinda struggle ageist Storm Shield Terminator Foolishness.)

[DarkLink]

If by "hand them out like candy" you actually mean 1-2 per new codex, only available on a limited number of characters, then you might have a point.

Of course, they tend to rely on characteristics tests which are pretty unreliable. JotWW really isn't broken. Stern's power hits both armies, limiting it's potential significantly.

And that Justicar instant-kill power? Only available on a special upgrade character and one of the HQ choices. So don't be stupid and put your IC in base contact with him, even if they do have the power.

[Xas]

I actually like it but for a completely OFF reason.

I think that a rule that removes a modell with multiple wounds directly from game should be something very rare and not an universal rule (double strenght) and a wargear every psyker gets for free.

In a perfect world GW would make force weapons rare, remove ID by double strenght, make ID weapons very rare and eternal warrior even rarer or noexistant).
as this is not going to happen I just hope for more EW models and a health number of removes from play effects...

[Vaktathi]

I hate "removes from play" mechanics that don't even need to cause a wound first. They just bypass too many mechanics and are far too "point, click, win".

For instance, with JotWW (easiest example on hand), you take a 100pt Rune Priest, and 92% of the time you are killing a Carnifex on a 3+, and there's not a damn thing the Tyranid player can do about it. It ignores too many mechanics and stats.

These powers all too often are simply automatic or are done on a psychic test (which means for pretty much everyone but IG, LD10, meaning they have an 8% chance to fail...). This means there is no need to reference BS or WS typically, no comparison of S versus T, and Sv's don't come into play at all.

Stuff like Wraithcannon aren't too bad, as a lot of stuff is immune to ID, the gun has to hit, has to wound, and the target can take invul/cover saves, and then they have to roll high enough to wound in the first place to get off that ID ability. Force Weapons likewise have to hit, wound, pass/fail any invul saves they may have, and *then* take the psychic test.

But the "removes from play" stuff like Jaws is just too point-click-win. There's really nothing you need to do but get off the psychic test and let them either pass or fail the characteristic test. Very powerful, stupidly easy to use.

[TheBitzBarn]

This all seems to be in response of the Horrible Eternal Warrior Rule. This sytart with the 'Nids and has spread. Maybe we nee to dump Eternal Warrior and just change som models Toughness Stats.

[addamsfamily36]

This all seems to be in response of the Horrible Eternal Warrior Rule. This sytart with the 'Nids and has spread. Maybe we nee to dump Eternal Warrior and just change som models Toughness Stats.

Mephiston doesn't have an invulnerable save or eternal warrior, but will still get minced due to a lash whip. and he has one of the most impressive stat lines going. (not entirely relevant to instant death, but is also a Nid based tactic)

I don't see why there shouldn't be things that can instant kill even the hardest of the hard, but when its a cheap item or ability that can remove a model from play in comparison to the points cost of a special character, you have to start questioning the worth of the character and the points sink.

This might be a good thing. It might stop character spam for instance.

But i do agree, there is an increasing number of abilities and items of wargear that simply negate rules all together i haven't decided whether this i a good or a bad thing yet.

Recently been facing the lash whip. Personally i think its bollox. The tyranid player in question takes two tervigons, a hive tyrant, a swarmlord and a mass of tyrant guard? i think thats what they were. toughness 6 two wound buggers that can shoot without line of sight with strength 8 weapons. by the time the guard are gone, my blood angels were horrifically casualty heavy. And being charged by 2-3 monstrous creatures when your initiative is 1? Wow mephy didn't even get a look in. Personally i think you should have to role for lash whips. Transfixing gaze has to be rolled for, but only works on IC. of which as i discovered recently, tyranids are not. :(.

P.s I'm perfectly aware that Mephiston is beard on a stick and the blood angels codex is in some peoples eyes broken. I just wanted to give an example of how certain items of wargear i.e lash whips don't work on an "if struck basis" like thunder hammers, or "the character takes an initiative test" . Instead it just happens. much like how eternal warrior is starting to be just negated/ignored.

[Fellend]

My only problem with it is that it's because more and more of an AOE effect, I can see the "HAH you killed me but I'll bring you down with me!" kind of insta-kill spell, but a template? It's just... something wrong with wiping out entire squads by bypassing all mechanics.

Mainly my problem is the same as with the Lash of Submission, it's not that it's a strong power it's that there's nothing I can do against it, there's no saves, no cover and it's not even hard to get it off, There needs to be somekind of powerlevel related to these powers like, this insta death spell is cast with -2 leadership or something.

Sure you'll all say well you have psychic hoods and runes of warding but what about us poor suckers that don't?

[davel]

think the shatter shard works well for dark eldar. They need it to go against "hammer" units, however you do not something similar to go against them.
Dark eldar don't seem to have a hammer unit.

GK spam need this ability as they are supposed to take down deamons who all have EW

Any change that makes a no brainer choice, in to a real conundrum I welcome. Lysander ( SM KING of EW+ high INVUN )too often i see as walking battering ram. If you look at his special rules he should be a difficult chap to place. He helps shooting but he's assulty. Other SM characters may get more of a look in if he becomes a little more invulnerable.

Besides if he going to get captured by dark eldar for that long then of course their going to develop something to ruin his day ( shatter shard as tested on Captain Lysander)

EW original started i think in the eldar codex and pheonix lords , this has never been flagged up as a cheese as only one has a invun save.




most new dexs have something to mess up invulnerable saves, again this is something that may appear in GK as deamons all have that rule too

first remove from play i remember seeing was shock attack gun result (zogwot similar but one model, and you keep control of the sqig) this is most commonly replaced by the more reliable custom force field.

As an eldar player I'd like to see our seer council hammer unit tonned down ( fortune turn to FNP ) but some where in the codex gain the remove from play ability. I run with wraith guard and know they can generate instant kill. how ever ( at least before new nid dex) most multi wound gribblys had immunity to it. Expect ogryns, I still dream of the day I can unleash them on ogryns.

Dave l

[Xanadu]

Personally, I am in the camp that feels that it is a little too broken sometimes.

When a codex presents 'Remove from play option' the 'one-shot' versions like the shattershard and Valeria's dimensional maze, in my mind are is perfectly fair - there's only one time it can majorly hurt you and the thing that carries it isn't too tough to kill. However, with the psychic powers like JoTWW coming along which are both cheaper and able to destroy pretty much anything with a small chance of failure, with multiple uses on stronger 'chassis' then I have a problem - no-one will be able to kill a multiple wound, high save model when there is other gribbly things running around.

Sure the Zone of Banishment has a downside, taking your own guys with it but realistically, it will destroy large units if taken and you roll well on the range. - However, a S test or you're dead seems hardly fair to me.

@Davel Removing fortune for FNP is not a good idea - FNP is 40k wide, fortune is not - one of the only vestiges of uniqueness the Eldar have remaining. You may have your reasons, but I have mine.

[davel]

.

@Davel Removing fortune for FNP is not a good idea - FNP is 40k wide, fortune is not - one of the only vestiges of uniqueness the Eldar have remaining. You may have your reasons, but I have mine.[/QUOTE]

true I can't help seeing storm ravens and valks as up gunned wave serpents.

fortune is a classic eldar power. Yet the only time i come across it is with seer councils that rely on it heavily.how many times is it cast on other unit?

dave l

[DrLove42]

Until a Farseer can cast multiple powers, his own survivability is more important. That and its incredibly short ranged

Re-rolling Invuls are much better than FNP. FNP can be ignored too easily

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
This sort of rule is inevitable with the type of game development 40k is subjected to.

Instead of adressing the problem, they try to use quick fix solutions, and this just results in more contrived development and restrictive game paly options.

However , this does mean we are closer to the enevitable re-write that 40k desperatley needs...as they are going to run out of exceptable options soon....:D

TTFN

[Daemonette666]

DoctorLove42in reference to your statement "What are your thoughts on this new power? Seperating the new codexes even more from old ones (and i'm not talking Codex creep, just an evolution to the game) and with the gap as big as it is in some places (Necrons and Sisters i'm looking at you) is that right? Is removed from play going to be a whole new section in the 6th ed rule book?"

We have not gotten to 6th edition yet, only 5th edition. All the new codexes are 5th edition. Eldar, Chaos and I think Dark Eldar, are all 4th editoin codexes. So this means that when the next sisters codex is released in a year or so and trhe Necron codex possibly sooner, they will be 5th edition so why the reference to them as 6th edition codexes?

But I agree with you on the likelyhood of them having "removes from play" abilities or psychic spells, well GW gets stuck on a trend. Last editoin 40K codexes were all abou nerfing armies and simplifying them so Characters did not play a vital role, and many units lost their super kill abilities. The current codex has done a 3200 mils turn (180 degree turn for nubes) and is totally the opposite of the previous trend.

If you are suggesting that GW when it decides to release a new editon of 40K in 2-3 years, will write in a new rule or section for "removing from play" models/ units, well you never know. It is GW after all. LOL

[Daemonette666]

My only problem with it is that it's because more and more of an AOE effect, I can see the "HAH you killed me but I'll bring you down with me!" kind of insta-kill spell, but a template? It's just... something wrong with wiping out entire squads by bypassing all mechanics.

Mainly my problem is the same as with the Lash of Submission, it's not that it's a strong power it's that there's nothing I can do against it, there's no saves, no cover and it's not even hard to get it off, There needs to be somekind of powerlevel related to these powers like, this insta death spell is cast with -2 leadership or something.

Sure you'll all say well you have psychic hoods and runes of warding but what about us poor suckers that don't?
Librarian Psychic Hoods can cancel its affects. Chaos Daemons of Khorne get an save against its effects, as do sisters of Battle. I also found out recently after misinterpreting the rules, that walkers although they have legs are immune to its effects. Then you get the problem of facing Tyranid Synapse creatures within range 12" or facing Eldar with the farseer and warlocks force any psyker to roll 3 dice to cast psychic abilities. Lash spells will then likely kill the caster most of the time. Very few armies have a counter for Lash of Submission. Tau, Orks, and Necrons. I am not sure about IG and Dark Eldar, but the rest seem to have units or ways to counter or ignore it.

You could alway keep your troops mounted until you need them to get into close combat, and lash does not work on units in CC.

[DarkLink]

... there's no saves, no cover

Don't ever play Warmachine;).




and it's not even hard to get it off...

That's what she said:p.

[Fellend]

Don't ever play Warmachine;).




That's what she said:p.

Touché!
I may have walked into that one..

[HsojVvad]

This all seems to be in response of the Horrible Eternal Warrior Rule. This sytart with the 'Nids and has spread. Maybe we nee to dump Eternal Warrior and just change som models Toughness Stats.

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Tyrnids don't have an Eternal Warrior rule at all. Lots of Tyranid units are able to be Insta Killed they have no EW to save them. I don't know how it started with them.

[Morgan Darkstar]

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Tyrnids don't have an Eternal Warrior rule at all. Lots of Tyranid units are able to be Insta Killed they have no EW to save them. I don't know how it started with them.

4th Ed Tyranid Codex nids were immune to instant death while in sinapse range.

this changed when the 5th ed codex came out suprisingly i may be the only person to be relatively happy with the 5th ed codex as its balance is rather good

[addamsfamily36]

this changed when the 5th ed codex came out suprisingly i may be the only person to be relatively happy with the 5th ed codex as its balance is rather good

Its a good codex.

I Wouldn't call it balanced though. But thats a personal opinion. (also it depends on how you play them. The list a local tyranid player uses is just......scary)

[Morgan Darkstar]

Fair point i was more thinking along the lines that it allows me to do more than one or two builds i dont understand why some people have such a problem with it

[HsojVvad]

4th Ed Tyranid Codex nids were immune to instant death while in sinapse range.

this changed when the 5th ed codex came out suprisingly i may be the only person to be relatively happy with the 5th ed codex as its balance is rather good

Ah I see now. :) Yes I agree the Tyranid codex is balanced, if not the most balanced codex in 40K. I believe the Tyranids in 4th had the immune to ID was because Tyranids didn't have much Anti Tank weaponry. Now Nids have a bit more options for Anti Tank, problem is, the whole brood has to be, not like in say a SM army where one mini can take Anti Tank for 10 or 15 points, while youi have to pay for it across the Tyranid brood.

Sadly it looks like again, an Imperium codex is going to be over the top.

[davel]

the test of the removes from play will be rule the same process as eternal warrior

first the rule appeared in the old blue eldar cdex. then later it appeared CSM then in a few of the other codexs.

the next stage it became a universal special rule in the main rule book. The main barrier I can see it having is as yet it does not have a cool sounding title like oblivion attack.

once in the rule book of the course of an edition if it becomes over or under powered it can simply be tweaked in rule book balancing codexs at a stroke. It also has the advantage in game that both players know ( or should know) what they do. Used to be a common syndrome of suddenly opponent having a unit with some obscure rule that is in their dex and using it to grab victory, just felt tricksy ( actually I can recall me doing this to opponents, I am dave l, and I am an eldar player it has been 9 days since my last game)

not all rules make it. feel no pain started with dark eldar in their old dex but it is unrecognizable from feel no pain we have today. if the rule works it appears in more dexs if not it's dropped.

And the medi pack rules have been dropped for grants to feel no pain ( right lads, leave the plasters and bandages and load up on morphine and paracetamol)

dave l

[murrburger]

The FnP in the old Dark Eldar codex is only the same in name. If I remember correctly, 3rd edition Blood Angels had mechanically the same rule as the current FnP.

[doom-kitten]

Soooo...had my first game against Space Wolves and yeah got hit by that JotWW and welp my whole opinion on this changed very quickly, it sucked mega fortunately after watching both my canoness and celestine go bye-byes my other units went psycho and I rolled amazing and creamed the stupid wolves. Got the Rune Priest with a Callidus Assassin haha take that you *** use some gay power on me will you and I'll cut you ribbons with not saves what so ever.

[Brettila]

I hate "removes from play" mechanics that don't even need to cause a wound first. They just bypass too many mechanics and are far too "point, click, win".

For instance, with JotWW (easiest example on hand), you take a 100pt Rune Priest, and 92% of the time you are killing a Carnifex on a 3+, and there's not a damn thing the Tyranid player can do about it. It ignores too many mechanics and stats.

Preach, my brother! This was an addition to the game that was completely unnecessary. :mad:

[Morgan Darkstar]

"In response to the previous post"

I Could say that about Eternal Warrior. I don't see you complaining about that.