Psyker Battle Squad vs. Stubborn

[Cheeseburger!]

I can't remember the name of the power cause I dont have my codex and Im hungover. But its the one that reduces the leadership. Is it useless against stubborn units?

[DarkLink]

Weaken Resolve. It causes a negative leadership modifier equal. Stubborn ignores negative leadership modifiers. Thus, unless Weaken Resolve has a clause that makes it ignore Stubborn, it is useless in this case.

[Necron_Lord]

The rule says that it reduces the characteristic until the beginning of the next turn. Seeing that it isn't a modification of a leadership test, but a temporary reduction in the characteristic itself, I would say that it isn't useless against stubborn.

[Mr.Pickelz]

it depends on how the power is worded, Stubborn negates all Negative LD changes.

"....Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilizing the power (to a minimum of 2)"

Looks like Stubborn would negate this power.

[Bean]

Dark Link is correct, for exactly the reasons he has stated.

From page 76 of the BRB:

"When taking Morale tests, stubborn units always ignore negative Leadership modifiers."

Weaken Resolve's effect is most certainly a negative leadership modifier, thus it is pretty clearly ignored.

[Necron_Lord]

Leadership modifiers would be things like ordnance barrage, assault result mod, etc. Weaken resolve doesn't modify the taking of a leadership or morale test, it affects the characteristic for a turn. Stubborn means that when you test vs Leadership there are no negative modifiers. Weaken resolve just can change the base you use to take it in the first place.

When the power is used, no test is taken by the target unit. Later in the turn, the unit whose resolve is weakened must use their leadership characteristic but cannot suffer negative modifiers to the leadership test if they are stubborn.

It is not addressed in the IG FAQ.

[somerandomdude]

Stubborn vs. Losing an Assault by 1

Unit is forced to take a morale check
Leadership is at -1
Stubborn ignores negative Leadership modifiers when taking morale tests
Unit is taking a test, so it ignores all negative modifiers
Assault loss is a negative modifier
Unit takes test at base Leadership



Stubborn vs. Weaken Resolve (6), then taking a save for losing 25% casualties

PBS uses Weaken Resolve, reducing Unit's Leadership by 6
Unit takes casualties
Unit is forced to take a morale check
Leadership is at -6
Stubborn ignores negative Leadership modifiers when taking morale tests
Unit is taking a test, so it ignores all negative modifiers
Weaken Resolve is a negative modifier
Unit takes test at base Leadership

Please explain to me, how does Weaken Resolve not negatively modify Leadership? It doesn't matter when it does it, it still does it. Which means, when it comes time to take a morale test, you ignore the modifier.

[Sam]

Stubborn makes you ignore leadership penalties when taking morale checks. This leads me to believe that when taking morale checks a stubborn unit would ignore the effects of Weaken Resolve. However, the unit would still take the leadership penalty when taking other leadership tests, such as pinning and psychic tests.

[somerandomdude]

Also, this:


Weaken resolve doesn't modify the taking of a leadership or morale test, it affects the characteristic for a turn.

You're absolutely right about that. However, Stubborn doesn't say it only affects modifiers to Morale tests; it says it affects modifiers to Leadership during Morale tests. There's a big difference between the two, mostly the fact that the first one doesn't really exist.

Also, its important to note that Stubborn does not have any affect during Leadership tests (Psychic tests, Counter-attack, Mindphase Gauntlet, etc.)

[DarkLink]

I'll just note that I didn't actually check the rule.

This is the most annoying thing GW does with its rules; they rarely define things precisely. Does Stubborn ignore just Modifiers or anything that changes the number you compare to when you roll the dice? Is Weaken Resolve a Modifier or does it just change the characteristic?

[somerandomdude]

There actually should be no confusion with Weaken Resolve, its abilities like Soulless that cause problems.

Soulless changes the leadership to 7. However, if the original leadership is 10, then Soulless definately "modifies" Leadership in a "negative" way, but it is not itself a negative modifier (meaning, a subtraction or the total). So what then?

[karandras]

I think this is being over interpreted. Stubborn units ignore negative modifiers when taking morale checks (i.e. - if they lose an assault, they still test on their basic LD). Abilities like soulless and weaken resolve actually affect the LD characteristic. It is not a modifier to a test, it is lowering the characteristic. Thus, they can affect stubborn units. Fearless units on the other hand, not so much. Just my $0.02.

[dannyat2460]

agreed i had to ask this question before and after a long very long discusion about it with gw staff and the manager getting one of the rules guys on the phone (not the idiots we can phone one he knows) we agreed it reduces your Ld making you (new number) stuborn

[Tynskel]

they don't need to define, because it is quite clear: stubborn lowers your leadership, whereas Soulless replaces your leadership.

Because weaken resolve lowers your leadership, stubborn overrides the effect. For soulless, the units are now Ld 7 (unless it would be lower number). This replaces your current value with another, and does not modify the value.

If you lost combat to a soulless charcter by 2, you would roll at Ld 7-2, and if you were stubborn, you would just roll at Ld 7.

[somerandomdude]

I think this is being over interpreted. Stubborn units ignore negative modifiers when taking morale checks (i.e. - if they lose an assault, they still test on their basic LD). Abilities like soulless and weaken resolve actually affect the LD characteristic. It is not a modifier to a test, it is lowering the characteristic. Thus, they can affect stubborn units. Fearless units on the other hand, not so much. Just my $0.02.

I'll say it again:

Stubborn doesn't say it only affects modifiers to Morale tests; it says it affects modifiers to Leadership during Morale tests. There's a big difference between the two, mostly the fact that the first one doesn't really exist

[Tynskel]

I'll say it again:

Stubborn doesn't say it only affects modifiers to Morale tests; it says it affects modifiers to Leadership during Morale tests. There's a big difference between the two, mostly the fact that the first one doesn't really exist

??? what are you trying to say?

Morale, under the definition, is a specific type of Leadership Check. Stubborn specifically states what types of checks it effects, it doesn't state it effects all leadership--- if that were the case, it would state that it effects all types of Leadership checks.

What that means is that weaken resolve would lower the Leadership down, and when they would take a Leadership check (like, for example, rallying a squad) they would be effected by weaken resolve. However, if they were to take a Morale check, stubborn would ignore the negative modifier.

[somerandomdude]

Read the quote by karandas. He's making the case that Stubborn does not ignore Weaken Resolve because Weaken Resolve affects the "Leadership characteristic" and not a test. I was pointing out specifically what Stubborn affects, which countered his point.

In fact, in my post I specifically mentioned that it only had an effect on Morale Checks. I never once suggested that Leadership Tests were affected. I'm not sure how you were confused.