2000 pts BA..mostly doa

[teplicuss]

ok so i have been playing blood angels fore a few months now. i have to admit i am having a hard time. my first list composed of a death company and lemartes in a storm raven with a death dread as well. i just saw it as to much of a point sink. so now im trying to keep away from DC and figure out other stratiges. I thought of the razor spam list but to be honest i dont own any and i am sick of mech armies. so here are four lists that i have worked on for the last few months... talk to me and tell mw wich you like and why. Please tweek things as you see fit.

list #1

Dante

Librarian ( terminator armor, storm shield) epostilary

Honor guard ( 4 x melta, Jp)
Honor guard ( 4x flamer, jp)

Troops

2x 10 assult squads 2x melta, pf
5 sanguinary guards, Pf, inferno pistol , chapter banner
5 scouts ( 4x sniper rifles, 1 missile luncher)

Eilites
1 sanguinary priest, pw, jp

1 sangunary priest terminator armor, pw

5 terminators, 3x lightning claws, 2 thunderhammer storm shield

List #2
Astorath Grim 220

Troops
9 Death Company ( 2 x power wepons, 1 thunder hammer) 240
Death company dread, heavy flamer melta gun 135
10 assult marines, 2x melta gun, Sargent pw melta pistol 240
10 assult marines, 2x flamers, sergeant( PF, Hand flamer) 235
10 assult marines, 2x melta guns, sergeant( PF) 235
5 scouts, 4 sniper rifles, 1 missle luncher , camo cloaks 100
ELIETS
Sanginary priest, jump pack 75
Fast attack
2 attack bikes , multimeltas 100
2 attack bikes , multimeltas 100
2 landspeeders, 2 heavy bolters each 120
HEAVY
Storm raven ( twin melta, twin lass) 200


list #3
HQ
Reclusiarch Chaplin , jump pack 155

Troops
9 Death Company ( 3 x power wepons, 1 thunder hammer) 255
Lemartus, guardian of the lost, 155
Death company dread, melta gun 125
10 assult marines, 2x melta gun, Sargent pf 235
7 scouts, 1 missile luncher, 6 sniper rifles, camo cloaks 147

ELIETS
Sanginary priest, jump pack, power wepon 90
Sanginary priest, terminator armor, power wepon , 85
5 assault terminators, 3 lightning claws, 2 thunder hammers 210
Fast attack
3 attack bikes , multimeltas 150


HEAVY
Storm raven ( twin melta, twin lass) 200
10 dev squad, 4 missle lunchers 210


List #4

this is what im running now

dante 225
honor guard, 2x ss, pf, 2x lc, 3x melta 290
librarian ,JP 125

troops

sangunary guard, pf, IP, chapter banner 250
10 assult m. 2x melta, pf/ss 255
10assuly marines, 2 x melta, pf 235
10 scouts, srx9, 1x missile luncher, cc 180

Eliets
sangunary priest, jp,pw 90
sangunary priest, jp 75

fast attack
landspeeder typhoon x3( seperated out to make three fast attack) 270


i love DOA armies..i like storm ravens( they die quick in 2000 point armies... and to be honest it seems number of marines really matters...please help

[Tynskel]

list one--- maybe invest in a Locator Beacon for the Scouts? Otherwise, I would just dump them for something else. What powers are for your libby? There are 4 priests in this list, too. I don't think you need that many. I wold keep one for the terminators, but drop the other one.

For some reason, I thought Lemartes is just 150 points. I could be wrong.

Personally, I would do a combination of list #2 and #3. I like Lemartes. Astorath is cool too.

HQ 220
Astorath

TROOPS 985
385 Death Co.
8 Marines, 3 Power Weapons, Thunder Hammer, Lemartes
125 Death Co. Dread
250 Assault Marines
10 Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
225 Assault Marines
10 Marines, 2 Flamers, Hand Flamer, Power Weapon

ELITES 131
78 Sanguinary Priest, Storm Bolter, Jump Pack
53 Sanguinary Priest, Storm Bolter

FAST ATTACK 270
50 Attack Bike Squadron
Attack Bike Multi-Meltas
100 Attack Bike Squadron
2 Attack Bikes, 2 Multi-Meltas
120 Land Speeder
2 Land Speeders, 4 Hv Bolters

Hv SUPPORT 393
215 Stormraven
Multi-Melta, Lascannon, Extra Armor
178 Devatators
8 Marines, 4 Missile Launchers
35 Dedicated Transport: Drop Pod

Now everyone deep strikes, except for the bikes. One Priest goes with the Devastators.

[Connjurus]

I always saw the biggest thing about Astorath the Grim being Shadows of the Primarch, letting your armor have a 50% chance of getting Furious Charge and Fearless. Death Company are okay, but really, there are way better things you could be spending your points on.

[teplicuss]

such as? im curiouse to hear your opinion

[Tynskel]

meh.

Death Company are a suicide squad, and they do a great job of doing that. They will slaughter what they come across, until your opponent focuses to destroy them.

Beside the biggest thing that Astorath does is remove the 0-1 limit. Sure it is nice to get 50% chance to furious charge+ fearless, but if you are taking priests anyhow...

[Connjurus]

meh.

Death Company are a suicide squad, and they do a great job of doing that. They will slaughter what they come across, until your opponent focuses to destroy them.

Beside the biggest thing that Astorath does is remove the 0-1 limit. Sure it is nice to get 50% chance to furious charge+ fearless, but if you are taking priests anyhow...

Rage is just too much drawback for me to take Death Company seriously. My friend loves them for the models, and a canny player can make it so that the unit they're forced to charge will probably kill them, especially if, like my friend, you love Thunder Hammers and Power fists.

"Oh, you like that S: 9 on the charge? I don't blame you, pretty cool. Awesome against vehicles. Here, charge my TLC Khorne Terminator Squad."


As far as Priests go, Priests can't be everywhere at once.

But hey, I'm a Chaos player. I'm a firm believer in taking risks, and leaving things up to chance, and Astorath lets me get away with only taking two priests in my DoA list.

[Connjurus]

such as? im curiouse to hear your opinion

Well, let's get a few things out, first.

For all intents and purposes, Death Company may as well be Elites or Fast Attack. They can't score, they're killy, and they're expensive. Those are three big signs of being elite/fast attack choices ( for the Blood Angel codex, anyway).


Now that that's said and done, let's establish a few things. First, the squad size. For easiness, we'll say five models. That's 100 points. If you add jump packs, that's 155 points.

That's the same exact cost as Vanguard Veterans, the Fast Attack choice we'll be comparing them to, and 45 points cheaper than the Assault Terminator Squad.

Death Company: Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, without needing a Sanguinary Priest. The downside here is The Black Rage, but just as a canny opponent can bait a Death Company squad with something that can easily kill it, an equally canny player can make that much harder - Storm Raven transport comes to mind.

Vanguard Veterans: Same cost. No furious charge or feel no pain - though they have a 1 in 6 chance of getting furious charge anyway. Bump that up to 3 in 6 if you've got Astorath in the army. Since everyone here seems to agree on Astorath being awesome, we will. What they DO have is Heroic Intervention. More on that in a second.

Assault Terminators: What really needs to be said? Any mix is good, though I'm a fan of 3 or 4 TH/SS guys with 2 or 1 TLC guys, respectively. Mixes up the 3++ with good old initiative 4 (5 with Furious Charge, if you get it. See Vanguard Veterans), rerolling to wound goodness. While these guys aren't as mobile as the other two, they make up for that by being a damn sight harder to kill. 2+ armor saves, built-in invulnerable saves, Stormshield 3++ being a buffer? Hot damn. They are, however, 45 points more expensive than the other two right now, and their preferred mode of entering play, the Land Raider, is also expensive. Of all three, they also benefit the most (to the point of it being mandatory) of having a Sanguinary Priest and, sometimes, a Librarian attached to the squad. But that's one pricey unit.


So, naked, off the bat, Death Company are point-for-point ARGUABLY the best, if you're looking at the unit alone. But it's when you factor in upgrades that this starts to change.

Both Death Company and Vanguard Veterans share the same point-costs for their upgrades: 15 for power weapons, 25 for power fists, and 30 for thunder hammers. Hypothetically, let's say you want a mix of all three.

Alright, that's fine. We'll say three power weapons, one power fist, and one thunder hammer. This is going to be one killy squad - both of which now cost 255 points. They're both now 55 points more expensive than the Terminators, but suddenly, a new squad is point-for-point the best.

And that's Vanguard Veterans. With Descent of Angels, and some careful positioning, it is literally next to impossible to NOT get the charge with Heroic Intervention. Forget transport costs, you just saved yourself the 200 points you'd find yourself spending if you wanted to reliably get your Death Company where you wanted to go with a Stormraven. They are literally your most reliable punch-in-face unit in the codex, with way more options than Death Company as well. With those points you freed up, if you really wanted to,
you could give all your Vanguard veterans Stormshields, and still be 100 points cheaper than a combined Death Company/Storm Raven point-cost.



Then again, this is just my two cents, but I've put a lot of thought into this.

[Tynskel]

I have found that I do not have these problems that you are talking about. I usually put Death company into a transport and get the transport there-- whether it is the stormraven or something else.

I prefer the Stormraven, because I tag the Furioso along with it, and whatever DC is charging, the dread is charging too. The combination of the two usually stop most problems. Again, I don't really care what happens to them after they disembark. I don't care at all, really. They just become a mechanic afterward, alive or dead.

[Connjurus]

I have found that I do not have these problems that you are talking about. I usually put Death company into a transport and get the transport there-- whether it is the stormraven or something else.

I prefer the Stormraven, because I tag the Furioso along with it, and whatever DC is charging, the dread is charging too. The combination of the two usually stop most problems. Again, I don't really care what happens to them after they disembark. I don't care at all, really. They just become a mechanic afterward, alive or dead.

Death Company are quite reliable, if you pay the money for a transport.

VVs skip the bull****, and get stuck in the turn they arrive. That is quite the feat - no chance at all of having a transport shot out from under them, no chance of getting cut to ribbons before they ever reach their target.

They descent, the charge, they fight.

[Tynskel]

that's true. Vanguard Vets are good for that. However, they fill in a different niche in the army design process.

[Connjurus]

The thing about Blood Angels I really like is that their Army Design is a bit more flexible than others, but I see DC fulfilling the same role as VV, so I usually disregard them - the one thing I think they CAN be better at, if taken naked, and in a relatively large group, is fire-magnet.

[teplicuss]

gentalmen... this is about the lists, stay on task. i want to hear about tweeking the lists not about personal arguments on the death company. please back to tweeks.

[Connjurus]

My mini-essay on Death Company and Vanguard was in response to you wanting to hear my opinion on it, though. :o