Compiled GK rumors

[DarkLink]

So several guys just dished out a ton of rumors across warseer, dakka and heresy online. Here's a summary, in case you don't want to wade through the three pages in the old GK rumor thread:


Special Characters:
Lord "Draigo" LR cost.
Draigo is a GK Grandmaster and is very nasty. (Eternal, t5, 5 attacks, psyker mastery 2, strength 10 sword vs daemons/psykers

Squad granted initiative 10
-Jaws like power which removes models from play without any save. template vs line, but no MC modifier for initiative
-selected unit is grabbed and brought near libby with deep strike rules
-Power which makes units within certain range take difficult/dangerous terrain test.

Grand Master "Mordrack" Storm Raven Cost
Brother Captain Stern
Castellan Crowe

3 named inquisitors Valeria,coteaz and karamazov. Coteaz is a daemon hunter inq, kara is the witch hunter and val is the xenos inq. They are armed acordingly.
Deamon hosts are in as henchmen as are death cult assassins and psykers.
An inquisitor (not sure if its named or not) takes 3-12 henchmen

(Inquisitor special character)
Inquisitor Stats with some special abilities.

Dijin Blade (literally,just called something else)
Some forcefield and a cool. Lucas the trickster style ability based on a remaining wounds test... or die.

The Ghost terminators are nice as well. With stealth.... they are bought as an upgrade retinue to another special character and are 32pts a piece. And when the character takes a wound... (i think he has 3 or 4) then another terminator arrives out of nowhere to protect him... hehe.

There is a nasty special character with a storm shield but SS seems to be lacking on a whole.

Brother Captain Stern Level 2:
HH
Communion
Zone of Banishment: During his assault phase. All models friend and foe, within D6" (not stern), must take a strength test or be dragged into the warp... deamons re roll successful tests. These casualties do not count towards combat.

Castellan Crowe Level 1:
HH
Heroic Sacrifice
Cleansing Flame


Inquisitor Corteaz (100pts) Mastery 2:
HH
Sanctuary
Mind Blades

Pretty much all of the named characters come with special anti-daemon abilities. One of the SCs has wargear that causes any daemons who deep strike within 12" to suffer a mishap, for example.

HQ/
Grand Master
Grand Master rumoured to pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
Makes them have counter attack USR.
Makes them Scout
All these units are affected by the one choice.

(level1)
Hammerhand
Psychic communion - take test, if successfull GK player can modify reserve rolls by +1 or -1 and you can choose to modify after each roll.

Brother Captain
(level1)
Hammerhand
Psychic communion - take test, if successfull GK player can modify reserve rolls by +1 or -1 and you can choose to modify after each roll.

Brotherhood Champion
(level 1)
Hammerhand
Heroic Sacrifice- during either players assault phase, when the "chaplain" is taken off as a casualty. Is passed, make one attack against any one model that he was in B2B with. If the attack hits, the model is also removed as a casualty with no saves... if the attack misses then no effect. Remember he is WS 7...

Librarian
Librarian (mastery level 2) 150pts Can upgrade to level 3 for +50:
Each purchased power is +5 pts, but he comes with hammerhand for free.


Grandmaster: 6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+

Brother Captain is the same minus a BS point.

Libbies, see GM stat line -1 WS -2 BS -1W -1I -1A

What, no one cares about the Brotherhood Champion? For shame!

BC and GM can take Psycannon, Incinerator, Psilencer, Servo Skulls (Up to 3), Blind Grenades, meltabombs, digi weapons, psybolt ammo, empyraen brain mines, psychostroke or rad grenades, and an Orbital Strike Relay. Oh and MC weapons. And all three are alll in Termi armour.

Inquisitor Corteaz
Inquisitor Karamazov
Inquisitor Valeria
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
The inquisitors are one statline. The different options are just wargear and upgrades that fit their role. Inquisitors are about the cost of a current GK.
2. 443334310 4+ Stubborn, IC. (25pts)
(Vanilla) Inquisitors are not psykers.

Inquisitor Coteaz allows you to have Henchman warbands as troops. There are NO Inquisitorial Stormtroops, but you can take Warrior Acolytes who you can arm with Hot-Shot Lasguns if it makes you feel any better. It's a meh option at best. Crusaders Squad spam is going to be extremely prevalent I fear. You can take them as troops for plasma pistol cost per Crusader. Storm Shields and Power weapons. Each. It's going to be a mess.

-Valeria has a LOOOOOT of equipment. Here it is:
-She's an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
-Also, Stubborn
-Stats: 4 4 3 3 3 4 3(5) 10 3+
-Power Armour; Frag, Krak, & Psyk-Out Nades; Laspistol
-Graviton Pistol: Range: 12" Strength: 10 AP: 1 Type: Pistol, One Shot
-Jacked it from an Alien Weaponsmith in the Ultima Segmentum apparently.
-Runes of Destiny: ALL (Armour or invul) Successful saves against her shooting or CC attacks must be rerolled.
-Eldar Runes she's taken over her career, but she ain't got no wraithbone batteries to make em work at full power
-Dagger of Midnight: Grants +2A (Included in profile) that MUST be rolled with different colored dice (Or separate I suppose) because if she rolls doubles with them, the attacks hit her instead.
-Stole this from an Eldar Pirate's corpse. Apparently the dagger is "controlled by a rebellious and bloodthirsty intelligence". Please perform an "Oogedy boogedy boo" after reading that.
-Hyperstone Maze: Can be used once per game in lieu of her CC attacks. Must be directed towards a character or MC in B2B contact. Target must roll a d6 and roll equal to or below their remaining wounds or be "trapped in the maze forever" AKA removed from play.
-Multi-faceted emerald that leads to a spooky sub-dimension, apparently
-Forceshield: 4+ Invul save
-Hand-mounted forcefield thingy.




Elites/
Techmarine
mastery 1
HH
Reconstruction- Start of TM movement, may re roll any repair roll.



Purifier Squad
Purifiers = Grey Knights that have a lot of anti horde options, they are the ones with the power that will do a wound on every engaged enemy model in cc on 4+.

HH
Cleansing Flame- Start of the assault in any player turn. All enemy -models- that are a part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck. Casualties count towards combat resolution.

Venerable Dreadnought
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.

-And yes, VenDreads are the only ones with Reinforced Aegis


Paladin Squad
Paladins are Ws5 55pts apoth + 75. min squad size of 1. Yes, paladins are indeed 2 wounded terminator armour greyknights. With allocation (thanks to wargear) they will be a tough unit... and for +15 points over a regular terminator! yes please... and the grand master can make them scoring oh yes!. (they can have an apothecary in the squad) Brotherhood Banner (terminator and paladin squads)
Paladin Options:
Force Halberds
Nemesis Deamon Hammers
Pair of Nemesis Falcions
Nemesis Warding Stave
Psycannon
Incinerators
Psylencers
Apothecary
Banner of Brotherhood
Entire unit can have psybolt ammunition
Any model can make any weapon Master Crafted at +5 pts per weapon.

HH
Holocaust- 12" Str5 Ap- Large Blast

Callidus- 145
Eversor- 130
Culexus-135
Vindicare- 145
8 8 4 4 2 7 4 10 4+ Assassin stat line.
The assassins have one singular "fluff" entry, that states their generic rules... 6+ FNP, Dodge Save etc... and then one page with the rules for each one (i think) stating wargear and rules. I do not believe they take up a slot.

Vindicare was very memorable....pick out opponents models for would allocation, can take out Inv save....for the entire game. Always wounds on 2+

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
Crusader- PW, SShield
Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
1- no effect
2- +12" to the range of all guns
3- armoursaves improved by one
4- all shooting weapons are rending.
5- all models gain 5+ invul
6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IG PBS.
WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt


Troops
Grey Knight Terminator Squad
44441429 terminator armour. 200pts for 5...
Terminators equipped with frag and krack grenades. Brotherhood Banner (terminator and paladin squads)
Hammerhand

Special Upgrade Character - Justicar Thawn
The terminator upgrade character special rule "i shall not yield" basically a 4+ WWB for the character.

Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)
44441418 3+ at 1/5 of 100pts each.
Hammerhand
Warp Quake- Start of GK movement phase, lasts till GK start of next movement. All enemy teleport homers stop working, any enemy unit that deep strikes within 12" of the strike squad will suffer a mishap.

deepstrike

-For every five:
-Psilencer (Free!)
-Psycannon
-Incinerator

-All the Nemesis weapons (Any model!)
-Various point costs

-Psybolt Ammo
-Personal Teleporters
-Justicar can MC any of his weapons

how useful do you see PAGK being?

IMO very useful. Their power against deep strikers it better than the old mystics... two squads spread out give you a good 48" bubble of anti deep striking shenannigans... means your land raiders will be safe from DS'ing meltaguns... etc. The storm bolters make them good torrent of fire units and supported by dreadnoughts, and librarians with awesome powers.. they will the the grunts of the force and they are cheaper than they used to be... and can be upgraded to fulfill different roles... with a full 10 man squad comming in at 200pts I think they are an absolute bargain.

Bestial - Do you know by chance how much personal teleporters will be for GK strike squads? 6 pts per model.


Transports:
Rhino
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.
Razorback
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.
Chimera

Fast/
StormRaven
Storm Raven is 5pts more than BA counterpart. But has psy power that allows it to ignore shaken and stunned. 1 fast attack option. the storm raven. cost 205 points ???? not sure why.
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.

Possible other unit
Don't think they are the same as the current version [teleporting FA unit], they don't deepstrike on turn 1, though they can, it's similair to the upgrade ability Marshal showed, with a few extras (On top of being able to deepstrike on turn 1 that is). (what those extras are, my contact didn't know.)


Heavy Support/
Purgation Squad
purgation... same as before... 4 weapons, 20pt psycannon, free incinerators, and psilencers (whatever those are)
Cost of GK unit as they are GK's, just with weapons.
HH
Astral Aim- Shooting Phase, unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range regardless of LOS. Target automatically gains 4+ cover that can't be modified.

Dreadnought
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.
Dred info:
115 points
comes with MM and nemisis doomfist+ SB
smk launchers

psychic pilot
the aegis
reinforced aegis
PE- daeoms

Psy power: fortitude (belive it ignors shaken and stunned)

replace MM for twin linked, HF,HB,AC or plasma cannon/assult cannon or TL LC
replace Doomfist with: TL AC or ML

Extras:
serch light
psybolt ammo
psyflame ammo
warp stablisation field
true silver armour
extra armour
Meltagun (p99 40k 5th)
Multi-Melta (p99 40k 5th)
Melta Bombs (p63 40k 4th)


Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)
Dreadknight cost of vendetta:
t7 w4 2+sv/ 4+inv with lots of weapon upgrades including the heavy psycannon and super incinerator.

HH
Holocaust

MC, Dreadknight armour as armour (deepstrike 2+sv/4++) So im assuming he is a buffed up terminator Mephyston style. Can be given a personal teleporter (making him jump infantry and move up to 30" once per game for about the cost of a Dark Angel Land Speeder Typhoon)..
S7 WS 5

3A and 2 CC.


No one knows where they come from, be it Xenos or Dark Age of Technology stuff. The GKs basically refuse to say and tell everyone to F off who asks where they came from. They're basically used as Jes said on Warseer, to go toe to toe with big nasties like Daemon Princes and such. And apparently this thing is super hard to master so that's why we don't see more.


Land Raider (and variants, including redeemer)
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.


Special Rules
ATSKNF
Combat Squads
Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test) Units within 12" of a GK dreadnought targetted by powers psyker is at -4 "reinforced aegis"

also a lot of units can be upgraded with psybolt ammunition. Whatever that is... 20pts for the entire unit of GK's
No shrouding. As far as I know... but now GK's can have rhinos and razorbacks.

Nemesis force weapons ( I have no idea)... units are armed with nemesis swords. And units can upgrade any models to have force halberds at xpoints. the Halberd I believe adds 1 Initiative.

No drop pod. But GK strike squads are supposed to be able to take personal teleporters. This makes them jump infantry. And once per game it is rumored to allow them to make a 30" move, just move... not a on table deep strike. they Can shoot when they do this, but not charge.

But all GK vehicles are phykers... their go to power is to "cure" shaken or stunned at the start of a GK turn.
No gizmos to re roll saves... although there are these "brotherhood banners" for units.. so who knows maybe a re roll all ones a la spacewolf?

- Psyker Pilots
- Brotherhood of psykers
- Psyker Mastery Levels
- Preferred Enemy Deamons3. So far i don't know... other than the inquisitorial henchmen mobs, and the dreadnoughts/landraiders/stormravens. Squad based AT seems limited.

nemesis weapons, as far as i know are force weapons. However, because of how brotherhood of psykers works (a unit casts a psychic power as a singular entity) i believe this means that only one weapon can become a force weapon per turn (if you so choose to use it over hammerhands), and the rest are power weapons. Still, nothing to sneeze at.

-nemesis halberd: +1 initiative
-nemesis daemonhammer: +1 strength
-nemesis falchions: Force lightning claws
]-nemesis warding stave: Power weapon that conveys a 2++ invulnerable save. (i know. Madness.) they\'re 25-20 points per depending on the squad.
-daemonhammer - this entry confuses me. There\'s both a nemesis daemonhammer and a regular daemonhammer, but as far as i know, this one is a thunderhammer with daemonbane.

Falchions are taken in PAIRS as in the entry is "A pair of Nemesis Falchions" so yeah. I think Stormbolters act as pistols for the GKs as per the previous codex. Nemesis Force Sword is just a power weapon as far as I know. That was what it looked like when I last paged through the armoury section. Plus, why would Halberds and Nemesis Daemonhammers cost +5 points then? They'd be free as a tradeoff.


Psychic Powers

Smite- See C:SM

Quicksilver- Begining of own movement. Unit within 6" gains I 10 till end of turn.

Warp-Rift- Flamer Template JOTWW

Might of Titan- Beggining of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand (yes, that means that S6 2D6 armour pen GK's is a go!..)

The Shrouding- Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" benefit from stealth. And have 6+ cover even if in the open (so 5+ in the open and 3+ in most other cases)

Mind Blades- Start of any assault phase. Pick enemy unit within 6", they loose 1 toughness for the remainder of the assault.

Vortex of Doom- see C:SM

Sanctuary- Any enemy assault phase. Enemy units assaulting any GK unit within 12" of the librarian treat all terrain (including open ground) and difficult and dangerous terrain.

The Summoning- Librarian movement. Pick a friendly non vehicle unit. Place them within 6" of the librarian using the DS rules. any friendly unit on the battlefield not locked in combat.

each level [of psychic mastery] is number of powers you can use per turn.


The GK psyker rule states that the justicar is the one to take the hit. If not then one randomly determined member does. anything that targets psykers specifically.






Man, that was a lot of copy/pasting and rearranging

[Arch_Bishop]

Nice work.

Thanks for posting all the information in one place; made for a good read.

We shall see what happens in April....

[Lerra]

Some additions:

Pretty much all of the named characters come with special anti-daemon abilities. One of the SCs has wargear that causes any daemons who deep strike within 12" to suffer a mishap, for example.

The anti-daemon abilities in the new codex are much stronger than the current codex. In the new codex, it's not even worth playing a game of Chaos Daemons vs. Grey Knights. The GKs will wipe the floor with daemons.

The vindicare assassin no longer has the special night-fighting generating shield. He is more potent but much more vulnerable, and he dies pretty quickly to enemy fire.

[eldargal]

Inquisitor Valeria interests me, not just because its a female name, but Ordo Xenos? Could the GK codex have some kind of options for Ordo Xenos forces? Hope they release a model.

Hm if the Ordo Hereticus SCs and whatnot that were in C:WH are in C:GK, that seems some strong circumstantial evidence towards the SoB getting their own Ecclessiarchy codex, in my opinion at least.

[Mr.Pickelz]

most interesting indeed! although i hate to see Shrouding changed in such a way. gk's overall seem powered up which is nice, however i'll wait till codex is in hand for final judgement.

[Sinistermind]

april cant come soon enough, i cant help but wonder if razorback will have las-plas option

pally's and henchmen units sound awesome and i cannot wait to hear more about the dreadknight, hopefully with a release model

anyone know what nemesis warding staves are suppose to do?(obviously an invuln i would assume)

[Mr.Pickelz]

@sinsitermind

i would hope they work like Null rods, and ignore all psyker powers no matter the source.

although it would be cool if they also protected against chaos "gifts" too.

[DarkLink]

Added a few bits from Dagmire on heresyonline.

He also had this to say:




Originally Posted by Blueberrypop
If GK's get what Marshal Augustine said they are going to be major op.


If thats how you feel then your going to be very upset come April


Blueberrypop gets credit for being one of the first to whine about how broken the Grey Knights are. And he's a Space Wolf player, too :p.

[AngelsofDeath]

Nice work indeed. Most if not all seems playable and realistic. I wonder when they might release pics of any models to mentions of which will be made in plastic??? Thanks for the info.

[FalseVariablex]

It sounds like the GKs are going to be extremely different from the current codex, but from what I have heard, it actually looks pretty balanced.

With the drop is attacks, ws, and strength, PAGKs are looking like regular marines. You can however, pay x amount of points to make them more unique or "fluffy." Seems like an okay balance to me. It's looking like you can go super elite, or a more traditional marine approach and probably everything in between.

I for one can't wait to get my boys in grey back on the table!

[HsojVvad]

Thanks Darklink, for posting all into one post. I don't visit all the sites, so it's great what you have done.

[zenjah]

Hm if the Ordo Hereticus SCs and whatnot that were in C:WH are in C:GK, that seems some strong circumstantial evidence towards the SoB getting their own Ecclessiarchy codex, in my opinion at least.

In a way, if this rumor is true, it means all the folks who thought there would be a "combined inquisition codex" were partially right. All three ordos, right in one book. Its just not as "combined" as people suspected.

I think the SoB codex will be very similar, with copy-and-pasted inquisition thrown in that is not very different from what GK get.

[DarkLink]

Thanks Darklink, for posting all into one post. I don't visit all the sites, so it's great what you have done.

You're very welcome. I'm a college student; I have to waste my time on something, after all;)

[bonedale]

First, thanks for the compiled list.

Second, what is your take on PAGKs? I have something like 30 of these, and was wondering if they will make a good bulk of an army.

So we lose W5, S6, A2 for what? I haven't read anything that is a bonus. Transports and teleports fix the mobility problem, but am I missing something? Are all PAGK weapons power weapons?

[GM Rex Nihilo]

thanks Darklink, can't wait 'til April.

Quite a change, overall a change for good. After missing all of fourth ed. for a 'dex I was sure it would be worth the wait. ;0

[Mr.Pickelz]

one thing i'm not getting is at the end when he talks about Might of Titan, he says it's culmitive with Hammerhand? as i read it there isn't any extra armor pen thing with it, the power only doubles the caster's strength. However, right after that he states S6 2d6 so is Hammerhand changing??

[synack]

one thing i'm not getting is at the end when he talks about Might of Titan, he says it's culmitive with Hammerhand? as i read it there isn't any extra armor pen thing with it, the power only doubles the caster's strength. However, right after that he states S6 2d6 so is Hammerhand changing??

Hammerhand gives +1S. Either Hammer hand or Might of Titan gives an extra d6 pen.

[Gravidian]

Thanks for combining these. Really excited by these rumours, they do seem quite different from how they are currently, but they do look really good. Hurry up GW and "leak" a pic of the new plastics!

[Sinistermind]

First, thanks for the compiled list.

Second, what is your take on PAGKs? I have something like 30 of these, and was wondering if they will make a good bulk of an army.

So we lose W5, S6, A2 for what? I haven't read anything that is a bonus. Transports and teleports fix the mobility problem, but am I missing something? Are all PAGK weapons power weapons?

so far thats the one thing that bums me out about the upcoming codex, grey knights are suppose to have much superior training and martial skill compared to regular space marines, being picked from the greatest warriors and said to have gene-seed from the emporer himself, so all in all im liking most of the rumors just not so much regluar PAGK's : ( although of course im sure ill still find battlefield uses, but its the thought that counts lol

edit** scratch that even regular GKT's are rumored ws4 :'(

[Raxximous]

I would like to know have we heard anything about the Vindicare retaining his ignore all targeting restrictions fun?

[DarkLink]

I'd've liked to keep WS 5 and such, but I can live without it with more competitive rules. GKs are still better than any normal Marine.

I am, however, dissapointed by the loss of fearless. I'll hold back judgement until I see the whole rules, but if there's nothing else then I won't be happy about that.

Everything else sounds awesome, though.


First, thanks for the compiled list.

You're very welcome:).

I'd like to thank the guys releasing the rumors as well. Marshal Augustine, Bestial fury were the two big contributors, but Spectral Dragon, Dagmire and several others contributed as well.


Second, what is your take on PAGKs? I have something like 30 of these, and was wondering if they will make a good bulk of an army.?

They will be great. Think of razorback spam lists, except the guys inside aren't useless for anything but scoring. 5 storm bolters and a few of their upgrades can do a lot of damage for the price you pay. Or a 10 man unit with a psycannon or two? There are a lot of potential things here that can be very useful.

I think the real question will be, are PAs better than the troop Terminators. I suspect that both will be very good. We'll have to see exactly what all their options are, and how much they cost, before we can get really specific though.


So we lose W5, S6, A2 for what? I haven't read anything that is a bonus. Transports and teleports fix the mobility problem, but am I missing something? Are all PAGK weapons power weapons?

We gain combat squads, possibly power weapons and razorbacks, and cost quite a bit less. If we get power weapons we come out way ahead of what we used to have. If we don't, then we'll still have a solid unit, I suspect.


one thing i'm not getting is at the end when he talks about Might of Titan, he says it's culmitive with Hammerhand? as i read it there isn't any extra armor pen thing with it, the power only doubles the caster's strength. However, right after that he states S6 2d6 so is Hammerhand changing??

Hammerhand is +1 str. Might of Titan is +1 str and +d6 armor penetration. Squad casts hammerhand, librarian casts Might, and you get str 6 and 2d6 armor penetration.


Edit: I'm not 100% sure that the Vindicare retains his targeting abilities, I don't think any rumor has specifically mentioned it. This might be a good thing, as the loss would probably be noted. He has definately decided to bring a much bigger gun this time around, though :D

[DarkLink]

Incidentally, I found this on Heresy online:


It could all be bollox
I belive this leak is a year old codex, so things will have changed.......
How ever it looks ligit so far, wont mention why but if its fake its the best i have seen

What i want to know is what are Psyk-out and rad granades???

So what we're seeing might not be the final codex. It's still a good look at what we might see, however.

Another guy added this:


Guess I posted this in the wrong spots first so here it is again, sorry if it repeats anything only looked at like the last 10 set of posts.

Storm Troopers are gone, venerable dreads are in.

Elites they are getting 2 wound terminators that have feel no pain. Called Paladins

They are getting a 4 wound monsterous creature at toughness 5.

LR and Stormravens will get blessed hulls for a buy up, not going to say how many points. What it does is negate the armor 12 for lance weapons, extra d6 for meltas, and the extra d6 for armor pen from monsterous creatures.

GK can be upgraded with a warp field, wich will make them fast attack and be able to move as jump infantry. So basically you can put 10 of them into a stormraven and they will be jump infantry wich seems a little OP.

Inquisitor can take 8 or 10 retnue cant remember, but he is still an IC so he can join a squad of GK. So basically you can have a squad of 10 GK with a Inquisitor and his retnue in one big squad. The downfall to this is all the ritnue are lower toughness than the GK so for shooting this could cause problems. If the are assaulted the Inquisitor can break off from the group with his ritnue and the run away or reassault the next turn.

Get libby Dreads

Libbys have a power that makes a squad -1 toughness, sounds like fun.

GK will lose there extra attack for having the storm bolter, but are upgraded to having 2 attacks base.

Again this isn't everything and I want to add not everything may be accurate. But I would say at least half of this we will see in the codex.Land Raider (Variants: Crusader, Redeemer. pp81-83, 142-143 C:SM 5th)
Grey Knights (p6, p29 C:DH)
Independent Character (p47 40k 5th)Land Raider (Variants: Crusader, Redeemer. pp81-83, 142-143 C:SM 5th)

Daemonhunters
(Ordo Malleus)
Codex: Daemonhunters

Grey Knights (p6, p29 C:DH)

Space Marines
Codex: Space Marines
Also SMS: Smart Missile System (p27 C:Tau)

Independent Character (p47 40k 5th)



Contradicts some of the details of the previous stuff, but matches the general idea of what's going on.

[Kahoolin]

Hmmm. I just spent ages building and painting a counts-as Karamazov and now it looks like he might be in the DH book :rolleyes: I guess I can still use the C:WH version with my IG for a while at least.

Are there any rumours yet about my favourite assassin, the Eversor? I've only read detailed stuff for the Vindicare.

[DarkLink]

And if the wargear options for the inquisitor retinues are right, you can use just about any guard or Sister of battle model aside from Seraphim or heavy weapons.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

So are we to assume that you can no longer use Inquisitors in the upcoming SoB codex if their in the Grey Knight codex? As they are covering all 3 Ordo's right?

Well if thats the case i have a few miniatures with customized LR's for sale.

[DarkLink]

If it's in your codex, you'll still be able to use it. It's just likely that it won't be in your codex when a new one comes out.

[Lockark]

So why is it that Warp rift is like, a hundred times better then Stren's power?

O.o

[DarkLink]

Stern's power is every model in 6". Reread that. That's a 6.75" radius circle. Every model but Stern within that is hit. That's a huge area. That's bigger than a 10" apoc blast. You could hit 20+ models with that easily in some games (though some might be your own), and in some situations you could hit 50+ (if you're fighting the green tide, for example). About the max you could ever get with a template is 9-10.

Since models tend to have the same T and Str, there's not much of a difference there. Stern's power might have the drawback of hitting your own guys, but for sheer power there's not much in the game that can compete with that.

[Rapture]

Sounds interesting. I am looking froward to seeing some of the new models that will come out, even though I don't plan on starting an army.

One problem though. Doesn't the ability to take a psychic test to nullify both shaken and stunned results sound unquestionable broken? 15pt extra armor only downgrades stunned. With this psychic power available to every vehicle every turn the armor will be unstoppable unless it is wrecked. Hopefully what we know is unclear and will be more balanced (expensive) than it sounds.

[Lockark]

Stern's power is every model in 6". Reread that. That's a 6.75" radius circle. Every model but Stern within that is hit. That's a huge area. That's bigger than a 10" apoc blast. You could hit 20+ models with that easily in some games (though some might be your own), and in some situations you could hit 50+ (if you're fighting the green tide, for example). About the max you could ever get with a template is 9-10.

Since models tend to have the same T and Str, there's not much of a difference there. Stern's power might have the drawback of hitting your own guys, but for sheer power there's not much in the game that can compete with that.



That's what I mean thow. Every modle with-in 6", even your own.

Why not just take multiple squads with Warp rift? In my opion the I test is better then the S test.

[DarkLink]

You can probably only take two warp rifts at best. I don't think it's available on anything but a Librarian.



One problem though. Doesn't the ability to take a psychic test to nullify both shaken and stunned results sound unquestionable broken? 15pt extra armor only downgrades stunned. With this psychic power available to every vehicle every turn the armor will be unstoppable unless it is wrecked. Hopefully what we know is unclear and will be more balanced (expensive) than it sounds.

Never look at things in a vacuum. It doesn't work.

The power might be broken in Space Wolves or Blood Angels, because they would massively benifit from it. Grey Knights, however, will likely be a smaller army, and for any small army to ever hope to compete with MSU style armies you must be able to keep every single one of your models in the fight for as long as possible. If your opponent can make 1-2 vehicles useless, he very well could have neutralized half your army for a turn. Far be it from broken, this power might just be mandatory for GKs to be truly competitive.

[Malachi]

Never look at things in a vacuum. It doesn't work.
Agreed. Especially if they have to pay for it in points to "upgrade" their vehicles, I would say it's balanced. Plus, if it is a Psychic power there are ways of countering them. Put an enemy Libby with the Psychic Hood near the vehicle to possibly nullify the power... the SW Rune Priest nullifies powers within 24" on a 4+... Tyranid Shadow on the Warp will cause it to fail more often.

Like all new things the codex will probably appear horribly broken at first, but as it sees use on the tabletop people will quickly adapt.

[isotope99]

It might also only apply to a single shaken/stunned result so if it takes multiple such damage results in the turn it won't work. Hard to be specific until the codex is here for real.

[Drew da Destroya]

The Chaos Marines already have an upgrade that ignores Shaken and Stunned... Possession. And it can't even be countered by psychic hoods!

I doubt the Grey Knights vehicle power will be worse than that. It technically has a chance to fail, which Murphy's Law dictates will happen at the exact time the GK player needs it most.

[Tynskel]

Never look at things in a vacuum. It doesn't work.

But, Scientists try to do this all the time...

[DarkLink]

It might also only apply to a single shaken/stunned result so if it takes multiple such damage results in the turn it won't work. Hard to be specific until the codex is here for real.

I kinda doubt that. Plus I'm pretty sure that being shaken/stunned is a yes/no thing. Once it happens the first time, subsequent results dont matter.


But, Scientists try to do this all the time...

Well... they're just really good at it:rolleyes:

[heretic marine]

thanks man it most of taken some time now i dont have to flip through pages to find the stuff

[George Labour]

The Dreadknight is something that caught my eye. Primarily because I've been praying for GW to include the Knight suits from Epic 40k in regular 40k for quite some time now. A big monstrous creature with the word knight in it gets my hopes up.

However I imagine it's just going to be a combination between an eldar wraithlord and the current Penitent engine. Still, if it's in anyways a piloted vehicle I'll be happy.

If it just happens to be one super sized angry marine in silver armor I'll still like it, but be slightly dissapointed.

If it's an honest to Omnissiah robot left over from the days of the heresy I will be duly impressed.

[Baron Spikey]

First pics up of the new Grey Knights, including the Dreadknight, up on Heresy-Online (http://heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=874803#post874803)

[plawolf]

First pics up of the new Grey Knights, including the Dreadknight, up on Heresy-Online (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65065&page=82)

Looks like a GKT riding in one of those frame things from the matrix. And those dreadknights are freaking huge!

[Lucian Kain]

Thanks to KD,160 odd people viewing that thread at HeresyOnline,I've had a look and its Good,Realy.But now I'm haveing trouble getting back into it.The DreadKnight is over twice as high as a rhino has 4 obvious weapon options includeing a big sword,has hands and wrist/forarm mounted weapon systems,the pilot stands straped in,the model has been compared to a transformer/gundam/matrix walker
The terminators seem to all come from the same boxed set but with extra flare/bits for the paladins you'll be happy wit them.The rumoured teleport attack option looks valid,I spotted vains almost akin to eldar on the packs of PA GreyKnights-thats my guess at what they represent.there was a rhino in the army photo.

2xStormRavens
2xDreadKnights
1xPaladinTermies(6)
2xTermies(5)
1xLandraider
1xRhino
1x(8) PA GK
1x(6?)PA GK who looked flash
1xRhino
I'm wondering is this 2000 points?

[DarkLink]

...I'll be in my bunk...

[Gravidian]

These pics only fuel my already excited fire!! :)

[isotope99]

So this pretty much confirms the three plastic kits that were rumoured:

PAGK (possibly with extra options for a special weapons squad)
TAGK (possibly with extra options for a paladin squad)
Dreadknight (wraithlord style with 2 guns or one gun and a sword (or in my thousand sons robot cataphract version, two guns and two swords (screw WYSIWYG) :p)

The resolution isn't good enough to be certain but I think there are a couple of new (presumably metal)characters in there too at the front, either that or the terminator kit really does come loaded with bits. What we don't see are any obvious non-GK inquisition forces.

[energongoodie]

Those pictures may be blurry but I am supe rmega hyper excited about this.
I got my first 5 man squad of Grey Knights back in 1991. I couldn't use them cause of their points cost, I couldn't paint them cause I hadn't learned how yet, but I loved them. The models were great. The guy leaning over to his right holding the massive nemesis force sword across his body is one of my favourite all time GW models.
I love the Grey Knights history and their look.
This April is gonna be awesome! Expensive, but awesome.:D

[oiad]

Spreading the word here, as this is likely to get trodden over considering all these new pictures:

News from Blood of Kittens about who the author of the codex is... (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/02/11/network-news-and-the-grey-knight-codex-author-is/)

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

DarkLink, have you been watching FireFly again???

Well even with the bluriness, looks interesting with the Dreadknight, they will be fun to play with. Now just trying to imagine what the Penitant Engines will look like compared to these things.

[DarkLink]

I'm interested to see the Dreadknight in better resolution. The Knights I trust to look sweet, but the Knight looks like it could turn into a Storm Raven. It may or may not look cool, it's hard to tell from these pics.


DarkLink, have you been watching FireFly again???


:D

[isotope99]

YOOZE GUNNA BE EERIN FRUM OWR L'OI ERZ

:mad:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/photopost/data/577/ork_dreddnite.jpg

[DrLove42]

DarkLink, have you been watching FireFly again???

Well even with the bluriness, looks interesting with the Dreadknight, they will be fun to play with. Now just trying to imagine what the Penitant Engines will look like compared to these things.

Everyone should watch Firefly. Like the law or something. I got Jaynes hat for Christmas from my mother in law...

The blurry picture is bad, but i think i'm confused. Aren't the Tau supposed to be the mecha army?

[Mr.Pickelz]

Dude, now you got me thinking of Zero wing from Wing Gundam tv show

[Kawauso]

Everyone should watch Firefly. Like the law or something. I got Jaynes hat for Christmas from my mother in law...

The blurry picture is bad, but i think i'm confused. Aren't the Tau supposed to be the mecha army?

Firstly: agreed on Firefly. :P That's an awesome Christmas gift.

Secondly: Tau strike me as the Japanese-style mecha army. They have a lot of Asian (specifically Japanese, again) influence in their aesthetic and I think their battlesuits (especially if they head in the direction of the Forge World ones) are heading in that direction.

But there are plenty of other examples of mecha throughout other 40K armies. The IG has their sentinels, the Astartes have their dreadnoughts (and soon dreadknight, for the GK), the Mechanicum has their knights and titans and who knows what else. The important difference is that Imperial mecha takes on a bulkier, more brutal look - kind of like Western mecha in general (think Mechwarrior).

Outside the Imperium there's the Eldar with their wraithguard, wraithlords and titans (the first two examples might be a bit of a stretch, but I think they still fit the category of 'giant robots/suits'). Hell, even the Orks have their (admittedly crude) stompas. :)

At any rate, I'm really looking forward to more (and more detailed!) pictures.

[DrBored]

Alrighty... uh..

Yeah, that Grey Knight Dread Knight is looking like a Gay Knight Derp Knight.

It looks like a poseable super hero action figure. Or something out of Bionicle. Depending on how some of those details sharpen up in future pictures... I can just tell you right now they should have gone ahead, stabbed the fluff, and made it a regular Dreadnought.

[DarkLink]

Omfg (from heresy online):

nemesis weapons, as far as i know are force weapons. However, because of how brotherhood of psykers works (a unit casts a psychic power as a singular entity) i believe this means that only one weapon can become a force weapon per turn (if you so choose to use it over hammerhands), and the rest are power weapons. Still, nothing to sneeze at.

-nemesis halberd: +1 initiative
-nemesis daemonhammer: +1 strength
-nemesis falchions: Force lightning claws
-nemesis warding stave: Power weapon that conveys a 2++ invulnerable save. (i know. Madness.) they\'re 25-20 points per depending on the squad.
-daemonhammer - this entry confuses me. There\'s both a nemesis daemonhammer and a regular daemonhammer, but as far as i know, this one is a thunderhammer with daemonbane.

Psyk-out grenades reduce morale of the unit they attack, i believe, but that one is the one i\'m the most unsure on.

Inquisitor Coteaz allows you to have Henchman warbands as troops. There are NO Inquisitorial Stormtroops, but you can take Warrior Acolytes who you can arm with Hot-Shot Lasguns if it makes you feel any better. It's a meh option at best. Crusaders Squad spam is going to be extremely prevalent I fear. You can take them as troops for plasma pistol cost per Crusader. Storm Shields and Power weapons. Each. It's going to be a mess.

Falchions are taken in PAIRS as in the entry is "A pair of Nemesis Falchions" so yeah. I think Stormbolters act as pistols for the GKs as per the previous codex. Nemesis Force Sword is just a power weapon as far as I know. That was what it looked like when I last paged through the armoury section. Plus, why would Halberds and Nemesis Daemonhammers cost +5 points then? They'd be free as a tradeoff.

I'll check the next time I see it as to what the Brotherhood Banner and the Heavy Pyscannon and Gatling Psilencer do. Psybolt Ammo ignores invulnerable saves I BELIEVE. Not sure. I'll check the next time I see, so no one get all worked up about it just yet. Master Crafted weapons work the same as they always have, and even GKSS Justicars can MC their weapons. The Paladin Nemesis weapons aren't any different than the ones I already listed.

Henchman are Elites without Coteaz, but I wouldn't worry as far as that goes. The Elite section is pretty balanced so unless you want to go Paladin Spam (And honestly, if you do just take the Supreme Grandmaster Draigo he makes them troops anyway. Ven Dreads are meh, Purifiers are one of my favorites, but only as Troops. Dreads can be taken as Heavies, so really, you can choose between Assassins (Only one per type, they're Unique), a Techmarine, and Henchman Warbands. And the warbands are pretty diverse as far as things go.

Also, Astral Aim, your target gets a 4+ Cover save. Not sure if that was mentioned yet or not.

I'll get back to you guys on the wargear when I get a pass by it again. Anything else? I'll try and answer what I can.


As for Mech lists, Knights don't need to be too worried by them (at least not to the point where it's an auto-lose situation). Psycannons are good at cracking open basically anything and I'd expect most players to be running squads of 10 PAGKs with 2 psycannons for this exact reason. Terminators are good too, but still only get one psycannon per five models, so PAGK are going to be a very fire support geared unit (especially when you take into account special ammunition).

Originally Posted by Commissar Ciaphas Cain
-Dreadknight comes with (And this is how you know Ward did it) two Nemesis Doomfists as default.

-Grey Knight Strike Squad Options:
-For every five:
-Psilencer (Free!)
-Psycannon
-Incinerator

-All the Nemesis weapons (Any model!)
-Various point costs

-Psybolt Ammo
-Personal Teleporters
-Justicar can MC any of his weapons

-Henchmen, upon further examination don't take up a FoC slot but you MUST have an Inquisitor to get a Warband (One warband for each Inquisitor you have). And there's no limitations, so yes you might see Daemonhost, an Arco, and a Mystic in one group.

-Assassins DO take up an Elite slot.

-Librarian can take all of the powers and can be upgraded to Mastery Level 3 allowing him to cast 3 per turn. Also, he comes default in Terminator Armour. AND can take all of the various Nemesis weapons.

-Thawn, no, but he is Mastery Level 2. Not sure why, as Hammerhands is the only power outside of I Shall Not Yield that he has.

Also, before I list this, if I'm over the line at all, PLEASE tell me so I can remove what's necessary not to get my butt kicked.

-Valeria has a LOOOOOT of equipment. Here it is:
-She's an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
-Also, Stubborn
-Stats: 4 4 3 3 3 4 3(5) 10 3+
-Power Armour; Frag, Krak, & Psyk-Out Nades; Laspistol
-Graviton Pistol: Range: 12" Strength: 10 AP: 1 Type: Pistol, One Shot
-Jacked it from an Alien Weaponsmith in the Ultima Segmentum apparently.
-Runes of Destiny: ALL (Armour or invul) Successful saves against her shooting or CC attacks must be rerolled.
-Eldar Runes she's taken over her career, but she ain't got no wraithbone batteries to make em work at full power
-Dagger of Midnight: Grants +2A (Included in profile) that MUST be rolled with different colored dice (Or separate I suppose) because if she rolls doubles with them, the attacks hit her instead.
-Stole this from an Eldar Pirate's corpse. Apparently the dagger is "controlled by a rebellious and bloodthirsty intelligence". Please perform an "Oogedy boogedy boo" after reading that.
-Hyperstone Maze: Can be used once per game in lieu of her CC attacks. Must be directed towards a character or MC in B2B contact. Target must roll a d6 and roll equal to or below their remaining wounds or be "trapped in the maze forever" AKA removed from play.
-Multi-faceted emerald that leads to a spooky sub-dimension, apparently
-Forceshield: 4+ Invul save
-Hand-mounted forcefield thingy.

Also, randomly enough, they can take Ordo Xenos inquisitors. Weird.

-And yes, VenDreads are the only ones with Reinforced Aegis


Edit: Justicars are in. True Grit is out as far as RULE goes, but I think Stormbolters count as pistols for them anyway.

Vindicare Info:

-Move Through Cover, Fleet, Infiltrate, Fearless, Uncanny Reflexes (4+ Invul)
-Deadshot: In Soviet Russia, Vindicare shoots you. Kidding, the Vindicare's player picks who he hits, not the opposing player.
-Blind Grenades
-Exitus Pistol: 12" S: X AP:1 Pistol, Sniper
-Exitus Rifle: 36" S:X AP: 1 Sniper, Heavy 1
-Rounds: Must Declare which round before rolling to hit
-Hellfire: 2+ to wound
-Shieldbreaker: Takes no damage, but PERMANENTLY removes Invul saves granted by items or wargeat
-Turbo-Penetrator: Inflicts 2 wounds on any non-vehicle model wounded. Has penetration of 4D6 against vehicles!

I Shall Not Yield! only works on Thawn, sorry.

As for the other assassins:

Eversor:
-Neuro Gauntlet: Counts as Lightning Claw
-Frenzon: Gain d6 attacks on the turn they charge instead of 1
-Meltabombs
-Furious Charge
-Executioner Pistol: 12" S4 AP2 Pistol, Poisoned (2+)

Cadillus:
-C'Tan Phase Blade: Power Weapon. Instant Death against unsaved wounds regardless of Toughness
-Neural Shredder: Template S8 AP 1 Pistol Hits are resolved against Leadership not Toughness. Can't hurt vehicles.
-Polymorphine: When the assassin arrives from reserve, choose an enemy unit. Chosen unit immediately takes D6 S4 AP 2 hits. Then the assassin is placed anywhere within 3" using Deepstrike rules but does not scatter.
-Hit and Run & Stealth

Cullexus:
-Psyk-Out Nades, Psyocculum (<- Not actually sure what that does)
-Animus Speculum: 12" S5 AP1 Assault 2. For every psyker within 12" of the assassin, add 2+ to the Speculum's assault value
-Etherium: Any unit wishing to shoot or use a psychic power on the Cullexus must pass an LD test on 3d6 (Vehicles count as LD10). If the test is failed they can't target the assassin but can target others.

-Jaon on Dakka Dakka: Assassins can be taken in any of the 3 elite slots, but each is UNIQUE thus only one per TYPE of assassin.

Grandmaster: 6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+

Brother Captain is the same minus a BS point.

Libbies, see GM stat line -1 WS -2 BS -1W -1I -1A

What, no one cares about the Brotherhood Champion? For shame!

BC and GM can take Psycannon, Incinerator, Psilencer, Servo Skulls (Up to 3), Blind Grenades, meltabombs, digi weapons, psybolt ammo, empyraen brain mines, psychostroke or rad grenades, and an Orbital Strike Relay. Oh and MC weapons. And all three are alll in Termi armour.

EDIT: Fluff questions! You're my hero. I'll answer the Dreadknight one for Brevity's sake, I'll answer the others later, if you guys come up with a list.

No one knows where they come from, be it Xenos or Dark Age of Technology stuff. The GKs basically refuse to say and tell everyone to F off who asks where they came from. They're basically used as Jes said on Warseer, to go toe to toe with big nasties like Daemon Princes and such. And apparently this thing is super hard to master so that's why we don't see more.

[eldargal]

I like the sound of Valeria, but I do so hope that the prices of units are suitably high to make this a low model count army. You know, with a nice female Inquisitrix model I may even be tempted to buy a few GKs.:rolleyes:

[DarkLink]

Well, Gks are 20pts each, GKTs are 40 and Paladins 55, sans upgrades. Lots of psycannons and the like will be vital, as well as several misc. units like HQs and assassins and the like. Add in Ravens and Raiders and a DK or two, and that's a lot of points for few models.

I want to make a Donkey Kong theme Dread Knight. It would look retarded, but it would be funny.

[Shyft]

i'm already getting ideas for how to convert a Dreadnought into a Dreadnight, mostly because I don't like the current power-loader stye approach. Too spindly. Needs Big Muscle.

I look forward to seeing what these Psilencers do. And my big thing is are the Psycannons and Incinerators still ignoring Invulnerable Saves in addition to Rending? Or do we need to buy a psybolt upgrade to do that?

[Chuck777]

Well, Gks are 20pts each, GKTs are 40 and Paladins 55, sans upgrades. Lots of psycannons and the like will be vital, as well as several misc. units like HQs and assassins and the like. Add in Ravens and Raiders and a DK or two, and that's a lot of points for few models.

I want to make a Donkey Kong theme Dread Knight. It would look retarded, but it would be funny.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with those point costs. They're too in-line with normal marines, and these GK are far superior.

[undone]

That 2++ sure look fine but points will add up quickly and you don't really gain anything but staying power. A five man terminator squad with warding will be somewhere around 300-325 pts. Hard to kill. Yes. Hard to tie up. No not really.

2++ is all good but not game breaking.

2++ actually makes it easier to face them in a way since you don't have to think about where to put your ap1-2 shots. They are a waste. Bring em down with small arms fire and tons of cc attacks. Everything dies under the weight of dice.

[Legoklods]

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with those point costs. They're too in-line with normal marines, and these GK are far superior.

Indeed, although I will save my final verdict until the codex comes out...

[Neonknight]

So much Info! My GK buddy is barely able to sum up 1+1. :-) He's already feeling overextended. :)

[DrLove42]

That 2++ sure look fine but points will add up quickly and you don't really gain anything but staying power. A five man terminator squad with warding will be somewhere around 300-325 pts. Hard to kill. Yes. Hard to tie up. No not really.

2++ is all good but not game breaking.

2++ actually makes it easier to face them in a way since you don't have to think about where to put your ap1-2 shots. They are a waste. Bring em down with small arms fire and tons of cc attacks. Everything dies under the weight of dice.

This is all very sensible, and very correct

Problem might be if the 2++ can be conferred onto multiwound terminators, with different equipment for wound allocation.

[undone]

Two-wound terminators with warding and individual wargear will be clocking in at around 450-500 pts per unit of five. It should be hard as nails and almost impossible to shift. If you add feel no pain you got at a unit that will stay. I world try and tie it up rather than kill it.

And there are plenty of ways to remove models without anything saves at all (jaws, gift and boon of mutation etc).

[Xanadu]

I really have to reserve judgement until I read the codex, but this really will have to be balanced absolutely perfectly. Seriously, it could break 40k if not done properly - it already seems my Eldar and Tau are going to have severe problems here.

Where's the stick to all of these carrots then?

[DrLove42]

I'd imagine the points cost is the hefty stick.

500pts for a unit of 5 men? Thats less a stick more of a tree trunk wielded by a mountain troll....

With a 2++, a unit of 5 individuals with 2 wounds each, you need to inflict 6 wounds to kill a single model (ignoring ID). With a save like that you need to inflict 5 wounds for every one they save.

So mathmatically speaking you need to cause a total of 36 wounds before the first one falls...

[sbsk1882]

I'd imagine the points cost is the hefty stick.

500pts for a unit of 5 men? Thats less a stick more of a tree trunk wielded by a mountain troll....

With a 2++, a unit of 5 individuals with 2 wounds each, you need to inflict 6 wounds to kill a single model (ignoring ID). With a save like that you need to inflict 5 wounds for every one they save.

So mathmatically speaking you need to cause a total of 36 wounds before the first one falls...


If they get fnp, you can double that amount. I hope that will cost a bit more than "only" 500+ points... ;-)
72 wounds, 144 hits, 216 Shoots...

I am exited!!!

[Whoop!]

c'mon GW, daddy needs a new Necrom codex. Doesn't daddy always give you money when you ask? All that he wants is a new Codex!

[Lerra]

Alrighty... uh..

Yeah, that Grey Knight Dread Knight is looking like a Gay Knight Derp Knight.

It looks like a poseable super hero action figure. Or something out of Bionicle. Depending on how some of those details sharpen up in future pictures... I can just tell you right now they should have gone ahead, stabbed the fluff, and made it a regular Dreadnought.

It looks way cooler (although still quite weird) when you've got the details, imo. It is a pretty creepy model. I wish someone would post a real pic. I can see lots of people using the Dread Knight as a base model for a Knight Titan conversion. It's not a bad model imo.

The GK PA troops look flipping amazing, though. Some of the best marine models I've seen since Space Hulk.

[DarkLink]

If they get fnp, you can double that amount. I hope that will cost a bit more than "only" 500+ points... ;-)

So vehicles should cost an infinite number of points because they are completely immune to low strength shooting and CC?

[undone]

With fnp you're looking at closer to 600 pts. What do you get the points spent?

Five models with power swords and storm bolters and limited movement. WS5 is neat but you're still only facing an odd 15-20 attacks. Remember if you're taking all warding you can't pick up any of the other cool nemisis weapons. Weapons that actually bring the pain.

500-600 pts for an unkillable anchor unit? You go a head and bring that, it won't win you the game. But it might deny your enemy a KP.

[DarkLink]

I believe 5 Paladins with all Warding Staves and an Apothecary would be 450pts. This lacks the offensive punch needed to win games. I seriously doubt that any all-paladin armies will be viable. Lord Driago won't be of much use just for this reason.

For 75pts, and Apothecary is too expensive to justify for a small unitof paladins, and a large unit of paladins is too expensive to justify for a competitive list. They might prove effective as a small hammer unit, but I think they won't show up in any other form.

[plawolf]

Why would you want to go all warding? If you have the option of choosing for individual models, it would be silly to go all warding when realistically, all you need is 2-3 warding to allocate AP1-2 shots to. Termie armor stops everything else just as well.

That will save you some points and also allow you to better wound allocate as well as bring other fun nemesis weapons to the party.

It would be interesting to see if the wording, especially when it comes to squad size. If its 5 men min, it will be a solid unit, but if you can start off with less, then you could look to adding a CC monster character or two along with an apoth to make for an insanely expensive but almost unkillable unit. Add in the CC ummph of a couple of characters, and if the apoth grants FNP to nearby friendlies as well, then that could act as a solid spear tip unit.

So, if you get 2-3 warding termies, an apoth, a GM or similar CC powerhouse and a Librarian (whatever, limited it to 6 models), stuff them into a storm raven and dump the lot smack bang in the middle of the enemy army (maybe even a dredknight if the stormraven could carry one in its dread grapple, but a dred would do as well). You could potentially use that as a beachhead and have your Librarian port fresh reinforcements right across the table without having to waste half the game wading through enemy fire first.

Might cause a massive headache a camp and shoot armies. And yes, I am looking at you leafblower IG.

[DarkLink]

Why would you want to go all warding? If you have the option of choosing for individual models, it would be silly to go all warding when realistically, all you need is 2-3 warding to allocate AP1-2 shots to. Termie armor stops everything else just as well..

Exactly. But people are dumb enough to see 2++ and freak out over it.



It would be interesting to see if the wording, especially when it comes to squad size. If its 5 men min, it will be a solid unit, but if you can start off with less, then you could look to adding a CC monster character or two along with an apoth to make for an insanely expensive but almost unkillable unit. Add in the CC ummph of a couple of characters, and if the apoth grants FNP to nearby friendlies as well, then that could act as a solid spear tip unit..

Paladin unit size is 1-10. So you could do this. I haven't heard anything about FNP bubbles, but without that then the apothecary upgrade is absurdly overpriced.

I could see a unit of 2-3 Paladins backing up an IC being a potent little hammer unit. I doubt that anything larger than that will be very competitive, though.



So, if you get 2-3 warding termies, an apoth, a GM or similar CC powerhouse and a Librarian (whatever, limited it to 6 models), stuff them into a storm raven and dump the lot smack bang in the middle of the enemy army (maybe even a dredknight if the stormraven could carry one in its dread grapple, but a dred would do as well). You could potentially use that as a beachhead and have your Librarian port fresh reinforcements right across the table without having to waste half the game wading through enemy fire first.

Might cause a massive headache a camp and shoot armies. And yes, I am looking at you leafblower IG.

I think the new GKs will do well against leafblower. Deepstrike everything in, shrug off their shooting, then go to town. Leafblower falls apart once you get in their lines, as they spend so many points on chimeras they don't have enough bodies to bubblewrap that effectively. It's the fact that you only have one, maybe two turns to get to them before they blow you away that makes them dangerous.

[undone]

The point of my posts has been just that, if go warding you will lack offensive power. How many points are you willing to pay for staying power? If you drop down to say two warding in five you expose your insanely expensive unit to massed power weapon assault and ap1-2 death. It will be a hard unit to both compose and field. I believe they won't be the most competative choice.

[DrLove42]

Ignoring FNP you have as good a chance of killing one with 2 boltguns at close range as you do with a lascannon (assuming hits obv)...and thats only just to balence the to wound rolls!

If you've got the same Invuln as armour low AP becomes a moot point. Only in ignoring FNP is it more useful.

The 2++ is just another facet of the codex rumour that looks horrifiying when you read it first time, but when you think it through isn't too bad. Theres worse stuff been "confirmed" for them...if you believe the stuff on BoLs page 1 today (most of which came from here anyways)...theres stuff i'm much more scared of than this

[Thiazi]

how do you all think sterns zone of banishment will work with transports?
Can i put him in a landraider and measure 6 inches from the hull? will the landraider be sucked in to? will it even be usable while embarked? if the only problem is los, then replace landraider with rino/chimera.

or does he have to be in cc to have a assault phrase? I am assuming he can use this ability every assault phase weather he is in cc or not.

[DarkLink]

How would zone of banishment kill vehicles? It causes a strength test, and vehicles don't have a strength. But, yes, if Stern were in the LR then you would measure 6" from the hull.

It might hit units inside transports, but that's the Doom of Malantai all over again, and no one wants to go there.




That did make me thing about a winning strategy against orks and nidz. Stick stern all alone inside a LR, and drive it straight into the middle of his army. Use Stern's reroll to protect stern, and the only other models you should hit are the enemies. So long as you kill the Zoanthropes first, and keep moving over 6" you'll be tough to kill, and you'll hit a massive area of the board that your opponent will have to try and avoid.

[Thiazi]

That did make me thing about a winning strategy against orks and nidz. Stick stern all alone inside a LR, and drive it straight into the middle of his army. Use Stern's reroll to protect stern, and the only other models you should hit are the enemies. So long as you kill the Zoanthropes first, and keep moving over 6" you'll be tough to kill, and you'll hit a massive area of the board that your opponent will have to try and avoid.

Pretty much what i was thinking. I saw a rumor somewhere saying GK can get blessed hulls or something that negates melta,lance, and MC bonuses?

[blackjack]

So do Daemons get anything to balance this garbage? In the old book Daemons got infinite reserves to counter the crasy anti daemon abilities of the hunters....

I mean I can't think of a book that so specificly screws another codex so much....

[DarkLink]

Why would Daemons get anything? There are virtually no Daemon-specific rules here. And of the few there are, some are actually in favor of the Daemons.

[isotope99]

If the rumours are true, the balance would be that power/force weapons don't do much against daemons so they get preferred enemy to balance this out. The anti-deep strike powers are a bit of a bummer though, getting daemons on the table is already a pain.

[blackjack]

Why would Daemons get anything? There are virtually no Daemon-specific rules here. And of the few there are, some are actually in favor of the Daemons.


Huh??

You mean other than weapons that ignore invul saves, the only kind of saves 90% of daemons get. 12" no DS zones when Daemons are the ONLY army that MUST DS into the game. Daemon hammers, anti Daemon psi powers...

GK vs Daemons should be the most climactic matchup. As it stands GK will just walk over them...

[Malachi]

How would zone of banishment kill vehicles? It causes a strength test, and vehicles don't have a strength. But, yes, if Stern were in the LR then you would measure 6" from the hull.
I hope they are consistent in the fact that the power would not actually work inside a vehicle that does not provide line of sight out of it. A psyker can cast no powers while inside of a LR because they have no LoS on anything. This even applied to Njal Stormcaller, the SW Psyker special character, who gets a bunch of "auto" powers that "just happen" while he on the field: none of them work if he has no LoS.

[DarkLink]

Not too much point speculating about it until we have the actual rule. Special character effects are measured from the hull of a vehicle, and Stern's ability may or may not be one of these effects. We won't know until the codex comes out or someone in the know clarifies.


Huh??

You mean other than weapons that ignore invul saves, the only kind of saves 90% of daemons get. 12" no DS zones when Daemons are the ONLY army that MUST DS into the game. Daemon hammers, anti Daemon psi powers...

Those are abilities that GKs have that work against anyone. As a result, they're balanced with GK point costs, rather than being balanced by handing out special rules to certain opponents. Yes, GKs have certain abilities that work great against Daemons, as well as many other types of armies. They also pay for those abilities.

Plus many rumor mongerers are very uncertain as to whether or not psycannons and the like still ignore invulnerable saves.

The two Daemon-specific rumors I can recall off the top of my head regard Daemonhammers and Warp Rift. Daemon hammers get a nice little bonus in favor of the GKs, which is nice but not a big deal. Warp Rift, however is actually weaker against Daemons.



GK vs Daemons should be the most climactic matchup. As it stands GK will just walk over them...

We don't even have the codex in hand and people are already whining. Why do people complain about new stuff that's coming out. You know you don't have the whole story. It happens every time a new codex comes out, and yet people still freak out over one thing or another. At least wait until the codex comes out.

[Shyft]

Plus many rumor mongerers are very uncertain as to whether or not psycannons and the like still ignore invulnerable saves.


This is an intriguing thing for me, I see that squads take Psybolt upgrades, and I'm assuming they're points Per Model, (but an all or nothing, you have to give EVERYONE psybolts or nobody gets them)

But that'd be another axis of cost, X for the Psycannon, Y for the psybolts.

[DarkLink]

Katie Drake said that psybolts now made storm bolters str 5 (but had no other effect). She then said she wasn't 100% certain that this was in the final version of the codex or not.

[Shyft]

ah man, that's so weak sauce.

[DarkLink]

I'd take str 5 storm bolters over ignoring invulnerable saves any day. You do more damage to infantry, and you can glance Rhinos. Being able to glancing Rhinos and Razorbacks with every unit in your army is awesome against razorback spam! It frees up your limited anti-tank to pop important targets, while you can keep the rest of the army shaken/stunned. Same thing with mech IG chimera spam, though you have to hit side or rear armor.

[Archon Jamie]

Why would Daemons get anything? There are virtually no Daemon-specific rules here. And of the few there are, some are actually in favor of the Daemons.

Don't GK get preferred enemy Vs. Daemons? And Draigo Is strength 10 against them, DS is weakened against GK, invulve saves seem to be ignored fairly often, etc I mean, they ARE daemon hunters, I would hope they beat daemon face.

[DarkLink]

Don't GK get preferred enemy Vs. Daemons?

Oh, yeah, forgot about that.



And Draigo Is strength 10 against them

One 275pt character. For that cost, granting Daemons a special anti-GK rule wouldn't be very balanced.



DS is weakened against GK

Not Daemon-specific. BA Descent of Angles armies, Drop Pod Marines and the like are all hurt as much as Daemons. This is just a useful special ability overall, even if it is particularly good against Daemons.



invulve saves seem to be ignored fairly often, etc

Actually, invulnerable saves might be ignored a lot less than they currently are.



I mean, they ARE daemon hunters, I would hope they beat daemon face.

Exactly. And GW seems to have done this by making GKs good against everyone, as opposed to loading them up with specific stuff to fight Daemons and Daemons only. As a result, there's no reason to give Daemons a whole bunch of special rules against GKs. GK abilities are balanced by the points they have to pay for them, not because they grant their opponent special rules.

[DrLove42]

Is Sterns zone of banishment likely a physic power?

Cos if it is, think Lady Malys will look forward to meeting him...

[DarkLink]

It is a psychic power. So, yes, if you want to tailor your list you might want to bring Malys.

[Lerra]

Katie Drake said that psybolts now made storm bolters str 5 (but had no other effect). She then said she wasn't 100% certain that this was in the final version of the codex or not.

I can confirm that it makes storm bolters str 5. I can't specifically confirm that they have no other effect (I can't remember, but I don't think they did).

Pretty much all of the named GK characters have something that's specifically anti-daemon. I would assume that most GK armies will have at least one special character (there are some pretty badass and cool characters in there, more than in any other codex I've seen. 12+ named characters).

It'll depend a bit on which sorts of lists become popular, but GKs should beat daemons most of the time. A good daemon general will defeat a poor GK general, and dice can always determine a game, but I'd expect an 80% win rate for GKs vs. Daemons. It depends a bit on the sort of Daemon list, too. A shooty daemon list will do better against GKs than a CC-oriented list. Certain kinds of GK lists will absolutely faceroll daemons, but I don't think that will be the typical list.

[DarkLink]

To be fair, Gks are actually pretty good against most Daemon lists anyways, and GKs suck. There are a few lists that GKs can't take, like fatecrusher, but an optimized GK list can do well. GKs inherently have certain strengths that make them good against Daemons, like lots of storm bolters:D.

[jmach]

Hey long time lurker first time poster on this one.

I just started playing 40k in feb of 2010 so just around a year now and got in playing with the Grey Knights. I've basically only played Grey Knights except for a month where I switched between them and Blood Angels and another month where I picked up some Necrons to try out.

I like the rumors and am looking forward to the update of the codex, I don't see any problem with them getting preferred enemy daemons as daemons, also I agree that people are making a big deal out of the 2w terminators with the rumored 2++ invuln save weapon, it's a unit that will cost an arm and a leg and can get tarpitted, yea it's really good but they will die in one shot to melta and lascannon, however plasma will get shaken off.

[Chuck777]

Getting army wide preferred enemy against a singular army is not fair to that army.

[Vhalyar]

I would assume that most GK armies will have at least one special character (there are some pretty badass and cool characters in there, more than in any other codex I've seen. 12+ named characters).

Wait, 12+ named characters? You mean 12+ HQ units, or actually that many named characters?
Draigo, Mordrack, Crowe, Stern, Corteaz, Karamazov, Valeria and Thawn are the only named characters so far, and that's just 8 of them. You've seen more of them?

[TheUnforgiven]

Hmmm, people seem worried about the Paladins with warding staves, they come across as a huge price investment to me and frankly giving a whole squad the staves would be just plain silly.

I'd likely take one or two (at most) on a strike squad, give the Justicar falchions, and the whole punch (three - four squads) personal teleporters. use the teleporters to stay out of arms reach and the staves to shrug off high AP fire while shooting away, and then close in late game for the throat along with teleporting dread-knights.

Thats if I'm reading these rumours correctly of course.

[DrLove42]

Getting army wide preferred enemy against a singular army is not fair to that army.

Vect grants Preffered Enemy; Eldar
Farsight grants Preffered Enemy; Orks

Yes it might put the other guy at more of a disadvantage but it'll happen so rarely its not worth thinking about. Its just matching the fluff

[Lucian Kain]

I like the rumors and am looking forward to the update of the codex, I don't see any problem with them getting preferred enemy daemons as daemons, also I agree that people are making a big deal out of the 2w terminators with the rumored 2++ invuln save weapon, it's a unit that will cost an arm and a leg and can get tarpitted, yea it's really good but they will die in one shot to melta and lascannon, however plasma will get shaken off.

They're not gonna be bogged down for long,Nemesis hammers +1S,HammerHand+1S,Might of Titan+1S +1D6 Armour Penetration,QuickSilver +I10,GreyKnights comming in at Strength 7,Initiative10 2D6 AP is gonna rape on the charge.According to the rumours the powers are accumulative!!!

[QUOTE=Chuck777;120970]Getting army wide preferred enemy against a singular army is not fair to that army.[/QUOTE

I agree it sux that punnishing an army for the fluff is on the cards.BUT don't Daemons have eternal warrior makeing them immune to force weapon attack ability?Thats almost a balanceing factor to consider.

[synack]

Surprised it hasn't been posted here yet.

From Bok (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/02/17/network-news-grey-knight-rumor-pullback/)



*Nemesis Ward Staff can be only bought for one Grey Knight per squad. So that means only one will be able to take one of those mean wounds.
*Unlike reported before by me and others GKT do not get Storms Shields (with very few exceptions). That means you are stuck with sucky +5 invul saves on termies. What you do get instead is all nemesis force weapons grant a +1 to all invul saves in assault. That means +4 saves in close combat.
*A full man unit of Paladins average around 600-800 for 10 of them. So don’t expect to spam many of them.
*Add to that the Paladin Captain that makes them troops is the most expensive model in the codex over the cost of a Land Raider.
*Sadly the Dread Knight MC thingy cannot be put in a Stormraven.
*The worst change that I hinted at back when I first reported the rumors last year. The whole Teleporting Grey Knight once per game thing is for the Grey Knight squads in the Fast Attack slot. That means those guys and the Stormraven are your only FA choices in the entire codex. Normal GKs will not be able to teleport in the game.

[Lucian Kain]

You wouldn't happen to have Supreme Grandmaster Lord Draigos full stat line,dose he get Hammerhand or Might of Titan free?Is that I10 granted to his squad without a test.I'm trying to justify how to use him,dosn't seem to stackup at the moment.

[jmach]

Katie Drake over on Heresy-online forums posted saying that the Nemesis Force Swords are the ones that improve invulnerable save by 1 which is why TAGK get to swap swords and halberds around for no point cost but PAGK have to pay 5 pts per model.

[Hellstorm]

so has the Psilencer stats been posted yet? i don't remember seeing it and i'm curious as to what is does.

[DarkLink]

No stats as far as I know, but it has been mentioned that it is likely a high rof, moderate strength gun. Maybe assault 3-4, str 5, something like that.

Edit:

Incidentally, the Dreadknight has a gattling psilencer, which is rumored to be heavy ~10 str 5 ap 5. So I would expect that the normal psilencer would be maybe assault 4 str 5, based on that.

[eldargal]

From Warseer:

Shes... Interesting, a VERY radical Xenos inquisitor.

How to start... She really believes in fighting xenos with xenos tech, doesn't care what the source is. At one point she found something called the Dimensional Forge. Something that was created by 'Janus' (no idea who that is but its probably a xenos) but all info on the forge was lost during something called 'The Howling'. THe legends say that the forge was able to create an area of space light years in diameter where deamons could not enter. Unfortunately when Valeria went to the planet that the forge had been found on it suffered a deamonic incursion. A bit later another inquisitor, who was pretty much the opposite of Valeria (a puritan who believes all Xenos tech must be destroyed and yadayadayada), named Emil Darkhammer learned about her mission and immediately issued an exterminatus on the hive world the forge was on, using the Deamonic Incursion on the world as an excuse. So in the end the Forge was destroyed and Valeria gained a nemesis. Shes since been chasing after the man declaring him a traitor. No other inquisitors or the grey knights have sided wit either her or Darkhammer but its implied that eventually they might have to if it escalates and it could risk destabalizing the inquisition.

As for her weapons lets see.

There's her Eldar runes that shes been collecting. But since shes human she only can use a fraction of their power. (Which is why she essentially Auto 'dooms' whoever she shoots or fights in CC)

The Dagger of Destiny she nabbed off a dead eldar pirate, apparently has a rebellious and bloodthirsty intelligence inside it.

The Hyperstone maze. Its a emerald containing a gateway to a 'pocket dimension' if you will. Pretty much she drags any IC or MC in base contact and you need to roll equal to or under the targets remaining wounds or they are removed from play.

Then her graviton gun: Aquired it from an alien weaponsmith in ultima segmentum.

Hope that helps

I'm seriously tempted not only to buy a copy of the codex, but have a Valeria themed army. Which is a sign of how much I love the sound of Valeria, as I've never based an army around a special character in the fifteen years I've been playing. The condition is GW put out a suitably fantastic model for her.

[eldargal]

7 7 5 5 4 5 4 10 2+,
Comes with Hammerhead, not the other one. GKs don't get the leadership of ICs, only the squadmembers or Justicar.


You wouldn't happen to have Supreme Grandmaster Lord Draigos full stat line,dose he get Hammerhand or Might of Titan free?Is that I10 granted to his squad without a test.I'm trying to justify how to use him,dosn't seem to stackup at the moment.

[isotope99]

From Warseer:


I'm seriously tempted not only to buy a copy of the codex, but have a Valeria themed army. Which is a sign of how much I love the sound of Valeria, as I've never based an army around a special character in the fifteen years I've been playing. The condition is GW put out a suitably fantastic model for her.

I'll be interested to see how they tackle that model (if they do, don't hold your breath). Presumably she wears power armour so either you get a slimline space marine or a preview of the new SOB armour style (please no lace though :().

Nice fluff, it's good to see some characters with more of a back story, I've felt that the new fluff for some of the SCs has been a little lacking lately, although their rules have made them more useful in normal games (perhaps too much so, but that's a discussion for another thread).

I don't like the 'remove from play' dynamic, so that get's a thumb's down from me, also yuck on the bad guy being called "I'm a dark hammer" :p.

[eldargal]

Yep, power armour and 4++. I really, really do hope they release a model of her in the first wave. I'm going to get the codex regardless, but that will decide whether or not I decide to spend £1000+ on a GW pre-order or not. Read this and get Jes Goodwin on the job, GW!:p

[DrLove42]

She does sounds cool but 1 question....

Why does a human, who isn't using the tech to its full power, have a few pieces of Eldar tech better than anything in either of the Eldar races (Craftworld and Dark)?

[eldargal]

She doesn't, to all intents and purposes she auto-casts Doom on whichever target she attacks. 3 laspistol shots or 5 S3 attacks in close combat with a re-roll on successful saves is hardly better than a Doom cast on a unit which is then shot at by a unit of Bladestorming Dire Avengers or charged by Howling Banshees.

[BuFFo]

She does sounds cool but 1 question....

Why does a human, who isn't using the tech to its full power, have a few pieces of Eldar tech better than anything in either of the Eldar races (Craftworld and Dark)?

Because it is a Maine Codex.

On subject, I am actually surprised that Regular Terminators get 3++ save, yet the super ultra elite Gray Knight Terminators only get a 4++ in combat!

Shouldn't it have been the other way around?

Oh GW, you idiots.

[eldargal]

Grey Knight terminators get a whole bunch of other goodies.

[DrLove42]

Autocasts doom....so its a physic power she never has to take a test for AND cannot be blocked by physic hoods and the like

The prisonmaze cube thing...can remove any model from play on 1 diceroll. True the shattershard can do that as well, but this runs on wounds, not toughness. Most things have a lower wounds than toughness...making ti better.

A S10 AP1 gun....well

[DarkLink]

It sounds like regular termies can't get a 3++. No option for taking storm shields. Paladins have a 4++, and the swords grant them a 3++ in close combat.

[erwos]

It sounds like regular termies can't get a 3++. No option for taking storm shields. Paladins have a 4++, and the swords grant them a 3++ in close combat.
This was my interpretation, too. Makes it slightly less nuts.

Then again, why would you even bother building a GK army? Mechanized acolyte spam looks like the dominant strategy by a mile.

[DrLove42]

Then again, why would you even bother building a GK army? Mechanized acolyte spam looks like the dominant strategy by a mile.

The codex isn't even out yet, not for a month or so and you're already working out how to abuse and spam it out?

For shame sir, for shame...

[erwos]

Working it out? You read the thing and it jumps right the hell out at you. It'd be like "working out" that Dreadknight deep-strike spam would make a mess out of almost any army in the game, or that the no-scatter DS character could be combined with a large squad of GKTs to function as a super-Dante.

[Malachi]

I'm sure this codex will be like many others before it. Leading up to and just after its release there will be much decrying that it is "broken." Then once it actually starts hitting the tabletop in games, and people start actually playing against it, they will find the ways to beat it, see it's not so bad, and 3-6 months after release we will start to see posts that it is UP and people will want a new codex, blaming GW for all the money they spent on GK models that are now "useless."

[Duke]

I hope that this ends up more like dark eldar... A good codex that is fairly balanced and helps "diversify," the tournament scene.

[Malachi]

I hope that this ends up more like dark eldar... A good codex that is fairly balanced and helps "diversify," the tournament scene.

Agreed. Of course (as this very forum has proven) you'll still see people claiming that the Codex is OP or UP and it needs to be re-done (new DE codex because their vehicles are "screwed" from the Open Topped rule? Seriously?)

[undone]

Valeria got some cool stuff but...

One shot pistol - good stats but still just one shot. And given that she's got Bs 4, oh well.

Good save, cool toys, crap stats. She better come cheap.

[Vaktathi]

So, looking over the book, it's got even more gak fluff than C:SM/SW/BA, but some of the units really are cool. The inquisitorial Henchmen Warband is *extremely* customizable, but sadly doesn't really do INQ Stormtroopers.

Although if you want to spam Plasma and Meltaguns in a way that would make even IG cry, Grey Knights are the ones to do it oddly enough. 5 dudes with 5 Plasma Guns in a Chimera for less than the cost of a Vendetta? 10 Plasma Gun wielding guardsmen equivalents for only very slightly more than the cost of a Vendetta? :eek:

[Duke]

Just as a general warning, posts asking for copies of a not-yet-released-codex will be deleted... Accounts providing links to or trying to provide a link to said codices will see harsher actions.

Duke

[erwos]

But we're OK otherwise? In that case...

I don't comprehend how any shooting army can come even remotely close to stopping three Dreadknights in their current rumored incarnation. They are stupidly cheap, they hit hard, and they are tougher than most nid big bugs. The only trade-off is "no Land Raiders or Purgation squads", and considering neither is all that great, BFD.

Ordinarily this wouldn't be such a big problem, because they're not all coming down turn 2. But, these jokers also apparently get reserves control on useful characters - so you stuff two B-Cs or GMs out of LOS, spam the reserves control power, and you've got a really, really good chance of having EVERYTHING come down turn 2 and 3. I don't want to say "instant win" versus mech IG, razor wolves, and Tau, but I don't see how it works any other way.

Toss in a couple big regular GK squads (and you can reserves control them so they don't come in early!), some Purifiers in a reserved Stormraven, and I think you have an extremely nasty army. Not unbeatable, but I think they'll dominate the way razor spam and mech IG do right now.

On the plus side, they do seem to be a viable foot army, and they eat mech alive, so at least they're new like that...

[Vaktathi]

The Dreadknights are indeed more than a tiny wee bit undercosted, they make Vendettas look pricey.

If they only had 3 wounds, had only a 3+/5++, and were only T5, they'd still be very competitive at their current cost. I'm not quite sure what they were thinking when pricing this unit.

The Henchmen Warband is another thing that will be routinely abused. There's no limit on the number of melta or plasma guns available on dudes that are cheaper than even normal guardsmen, add to this the ability to take just about anything imagineable from entire squads of dudes that make the unit better and tote lascannons, to 3++ powerweapon dudes, etc. This is an entry that's trying to pack in 5 or 6 units worth of models and options into one.

The Paladins are the other unit that is going to get lots of rage. There are many armies that could literally shoot at them, and only them, for 6 turns, and not kill off a 5 man squad. Granted a 5man squad kitted for maximum survivability and wound allocation gimmicks is nearly as many points as two land raiders, but the sheer amount damage they can take is just silly. You'd need about 54 BS4 meltagun shots or 720 BS3 Lasgun shots to take such a unit down.


Overall from what I've seen of the book, it really feels like a bad internet fandex. They went really overboard on the whole "elite GK" thing, then remember they have to cover the actual Inquisition units as well and hamfisted them into as few entries as possible.

[erwos]

The Henchmen Warband is another thing that will be routinely abused. There's no limit on the number of melta or plasma guns available on dudes that are cheaper than even normal guardsmen, add to this the ability to take just about anything imagineable from entire squads of dudes that make the unit better and tote lascannons, to 3++ powerweapon dudes, etc. This is an entry that's trying to pack in 5 or 6 units worth of models and options into one.
I actually thought a crusader rush was the better option - 9 crusaders, 3 acolytes with PA and meltas, and a chimera. I feel almost bad for any marine squad they hit.


The Paladins are the other unit that is going to get lots of rage. There are many armies that could literally shoot at them, and only them, for 6 turns, and not kill off a 5 man squad. Granted a 5man squad kitted for maximum survivability and wound allocation gimmicks is nearly as many points as two land raiders, but the sheer amount damage they can take is just silly. You'd need about 54 BS4 meltagun shots or 720 BS3 Lasgun shots to take such a unit down.
They're super-TWC, but instead of moving fast, they deep-strike, yeah. Like Dreadknights, having a unit of these guys land in front of you is basically game over.


Overall from what I've seen of the book, it really feels like a bad internet fandex. They went really overboard on the whole "elite GK" thing, then remember they have to cover the actual Inquisition units as well and hamfisted them into as few entries as possible.
Unfortunately, it also completely matches up with the more recent rumors.

[Vaktathi]

Oh I have no doubt that what we are seeing is legitimate, but it really just feels like a fanboi's pet project. As if Mat Ward was told "just go wild, we'll take whatever you come up with and send it straight to printing".


They're super-TWC, but instead of moving fast, they deep-strike, yeah. Like Dreadknights, having a unit of these guys land in front of you is basically game over. Yeah, you've got one turn to tarpit them or GTFO, there's no possible way even the fiercest IG gunline is going to take down a full squad of those guys in one round of shooting.

[Jokubas]

From Warseer:
[Valeria Information]

I'm seriously tempted not only to buy a copy of the codex, but have a Valeria themed army. Which is a sign of how much I love the sound of Valeria, as I've never based an army around a special character in the fifteen years I've been playing. The condition is GW put out a suitably fantastic model for her.
Considering her story is similar to one I came up with to fit my inquisitor, my army is definitely going to be on her side, even if I don't use her. It'll be nice to have a canon explanation for my army's actions for once, and I can scrap my more "heretical" stuff. :P

[Dagron XIII]

The Dreadknights are indeed more than a tiny wee bit undercosted, they make Vendettas look pricey.

If they only had 3 wounds, had only a 3+/5++, and were only T5, they'd still be very competitive at their current cost. I'm not quite sure what they were thinking when pricing this unit.

I don't actually think they are undercosted at all. It's 130 for the base unit = two fists and that's it. 75 pts if you want it to be able to deepstrike. And it's 30-40 pts for each gun weapon (unless you want a better CC weapon which is cheaper). That's 240 pts for the cheapest shooting option which in my mind is not that cheap when you consider the basic cost of your troops, HQs, and the opportunity cost for not taking another Heavy Support Option (purgation squad, dreadnaughts, landraider varients). Sure it's tough, but so are 6 termies for the same price and those are scoring units. And again, these are only rumors concerning a look at a codex that is clearly not the final product.


The Henchmen Warband is another thing that will be routinely abused. There's no limit on the number of melta or plasma guns available on dudes that are cheaper than even normal guardsmen, add to this the ability to take just about anything imagineable from entire squads of dudes that make the unit better and tote lascannons, to 3++ powerweapon dudes, etc. This is an entry that's trying to pack in 5 or 6 units worth of models and options into one.

Henchmen rock, but I mean that in their customizable and pure inquisition way. They are not, however, as great as you seem to think. Almost everyone of them have the stats of your basic guardsman and a 5+ save, so their not going to be the most well protected bunch. While you can spam plasma and melta's it sounds better than it would actually turn out on a BS 3 model with a crappy save who is near guaranteed to die the next turn. In addition, unless you want to roll with Coteaz every game, your squads are limited to the number of inquisitor's taken as HQ and by the number that can fit in a transport (so 1 -2 squads max). Don't get me wrong, they're good but IMHO not OP.


The Paladins are the other unit that is going to get lots of rage. There are many armies that could literally shoot at them, and only them, for 6 turns, and not kill off a 5 man squad. Granted a 5man squad kitted for maximum survivability and wound allocation gimmicks is nearly as many points as two land raiders, but the sheer amount damage they can take is just silly. You'd need about 54 BS4 meltagun shots or 720 BS3 Lasgun shots to take such a unit down.

Small correction but it would only take 360 BS3 lasgun shots; admittedly not a small number of lasgun shots though. Moreover, rumors have it that the 2++ warding stave might only grant a 2++ invulnerable save in CC (which would drastically reduce that las gun figure above). If that's the case then you will deal with them like every other Termie squad. Yeah, they'll have an extra wound each for only 15 pts but (a) they aren't immune to ID, (b) they don't have access to stromshields so there are no wound allocation tricks to worry about, (c) they may have twice as many wounds but their stats are not twice as good as a normal Terminator, and finally (d) they aren't troop choices like the other Terminators unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for a special character which just adds to the cost of the whole unit. If you ask me, I'd relish seeing that large a unit in a regular game as it means that unit of less then 10 models is HALF of your opponents army. Think of it this way, at best that unit can only destroy 6 units IF the game goes to turn 7 AND they assault on turn 2, AND they are in charging range of every unit every turn (this of course assumes that the Paladin unit isn't progressively getting weaker as time goes by as well).


Overall from what I've seen of the book, it really feels like a bad internet fandex. They went really overboard on the whole "elite GK" thing, then remember they have to cover the actual Inquisition units as well and hamfisted them into as few entries as possible.

As you can probably tell, I disagree with you completely. My prediction is that this book will come out and be every bit as terrifying as every other codex that comes out...which is to say that it's bark will prove to be bigger than it's bite. Trust me, the sky isn't falling yet.

[DarkLink]

There's been no indication that warding staves are a 2++ in combat only. They've been stated to be a 2++ always.

It's Nemesis Force Swords that give you +1 to you invulnerable save in CC only.



And Dreadknights are not cheap after upgrades. And considering how small GK armies can be, what might seem undercosted for them really won't be. A 130pt MC might be underpriced in, say, a Guard army, where they have a ton of supporting tools that would be extremely powerful. But when you only have a handful of other models on the field, things balance out quickly.

[Chuck777]

I don't actually think they are undercosted at all. It's 130 for the base unit = two fists and that's it. 75 pts if you want it to be able to deepstrike. And it's 30-40 pts for each gun weapon (unless you want a better CC weapon which is cheaper). That's 240 pts for the cheapest shooting option which in my mind is not that cheap when you consider the basic cost of your troops, HQs, and the opportunity cost for not taking another Heavy Support Option (purgation squad, dreadnaughts, landraider varients). Sure it's tough, but so are 6 termies for the same price and those are scoring units. And again, these are only rumors concerning a look at a codex that is clearly not the final product.

The Dreadknight can teleport onto the field standard. The 75 point homers are there for other units wishing to deep strike near him. The Knight is still too cheap, even with guns, especially compared to the Tyranid Monstrous Creatures.


Henchmen rock, but I mean that in their customizable and pure inquisition way. They are not, however, as great as you seem to think. Almost everyone of them have the stats of your basic guardsman and a 5+ save, so their not going to be the most well protected bunch. While you can spam plasma and melta's it sounds better than it would actually turn out on a BS 3 model with a crappy save who is near guaranteed to die the next turn. In addition, unless you want to roll with Coteaz every game, your squads are limited to the number of inquisitor's taken as HQ and by the number that can fit in a transport (so 1 -2 squads max). Don't get me wrong, they're good but IMHO not OP.

You can upgrade their save to a 4+ for 4 points a model, or 3+ for 10. The BS3 is a killer but the sheer volume of fire you will have (and extra range thanks to a Jokaero) more than makes up for that problem. They are by no means broken but since the meta favors easy spam of good weapons we will be seeing a bunch of Henchmen armies, especially since Coteaz is just 100 points.


Small correction but it would only take 360 BS3 lasgun shots; admittedly not a small number of lasgun shots though. Moreover, rumors have it that the 2++ warding stave might only grant a 2++ invulnerable save in CC (which would drastically reduce that las gun figure above). If that's the case then you will deal with them like every other Termie squad. Yeah, they'll have an extra wound each for only 15 pts but (a) they aren't immune to ID, (b) they don't have access to stromshields so there are no wound allocation tricks to worry about, (c) they may have twice as many wounds but their stats are not twice as good as a normal Terminator, and finally (d) they aren't troop choices like the other Terminators unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for a special character which just adds to the cost of the whole unit. If you ask me, I'd relish seeing that large a unit in a regular game as it means that unit of less then 10 models is HALF of your opponents army. Think of it this way, at best that unit can only destroy 6 units IF the game goes to turn 7 AND they assault on turn 2, AND they are in charging range of every unit every turn (this of course assumes that the Paladin unit isn't progressively getting weaker as time goes by as well).

The Paladins are a good (in many respects) however, like Tyranid Warriors, have one fatal flaw - they do not have Eternal Warrior. So a squad of TH/SS Termies from C:SM should be able to beat them down. It would be a tough fight but the Termies should be able to at least really hurt the Paladin squad, since each unsaved wound is an insta-kill.

[Alessander]

a few notes:

Jokaero have a built-in nerf when you take more than a few of them. Having more than 1 forces you to modify the weapon table +1 (remember, you only roll once before the game no matter how many monkeys you have)... and if you get multiple sixes you get nothing. With 5+ monkeys, you automatically get no upgrades since you'll always roll 6+. So there's no fear of 12 rending-lascannon-shots-with-extended range™.

purgation squad's no LOS-to shoot spell: it says the target "has" a x+ cover save (that cannot be modified at all) against the attack.

does this mean that it overrides the target having stealth, since stealth modifies cover saves?
even if the target has a better cover save (such as in bolstered ruins) does the targets cover save gets downgraded?
how does that work with template weapons that ignore cover saves? is ignoring a cover save concidered a modification, or an override?


Purifies and the burning-people-in-combat spell: the obvious perk is that it burns enemies that are not directly engaged with the purifiers, so you just need to charge one enemy model to torch the entire enemy squad (great for hordes). but... it can be REALLY abused with Multiple Combats... by using another friendly squad to charge TWO or more enemy squads, you charge the purifiers into one enemy squad. By RAW, it's all one assault, so all the enemies in the assault conga-line get torched, even if an enemy squad doesn't have anyone engaged with the Purifiers. (see pic below)
http://silvercompassdesigns.com/personal/purifier-bug.jpg

[Chuck777]

a few notes:
Purifies and the burning-people-in-combat spell: the obvious perk is that it burns enemies that are not directly engaged with the purifiers, so you just need to charge one enemy model to torch the entire enemy squad (great for hordes). but... it can be REALLY abused with Multiple Combats... by using another friendly squad to charge TWO or more enemy squads, you charge the purifiers into one enemy squad. By RAW, it's all one assault, so all the enemies in the assault conga-line get torched, even if an enemy squad doesn't have anyone engaged with the Purifiers.

I was thinking along the same lines. Its going to be really, really painful for Fearless enemies since the wounds from the power are counted as being apart of the actual combat. Even outside of multi-assaults, The Purifiers could easily destroy an entire 30-man squad of Boyz in a single turn of combat (the Purifiers will net nearly 20 wounds from the Cleansing Flame and their actual attacks, then add in either fearless wounds or being sweeping advanced...). So yeah Purifiers are very, very powerful.

[Vaktathi]

I don't actually think they are undercosted at all. It's 130 for the base unit = two fists and that's it. 75 pts if you want it to be able to deepstrike. And it's 30-40 pts for each gun weapon (unless you want a better CC weapon which is cheaper). That's 240 pts for the cheapest shooting option which in my mind is not that cheap when you consider the basic cost of your troops, HQs, and the opportunity cost for not taking another Heavy Support Option (purgation squad, dreadnaughts, landraider varients). Sure it's tough, but so are 6 termies for the same price and those are scoring units. And again, these are only rumors concerning a look at a codex that is clearly not the final product. Even without any upgrades, at its most basic form, it's hardier than a Lord of Change, Keeper of Secrets, Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster, Carnifex or Trygon due to its higher T, better Armor Save and the presence of an outstanding Invul. While a couple of these are a bit fightier, they aren't *too* much more so, and it has a lot more options and versatility, and in many cases is nearly half the cost.

Lets not kid ourselves here, this is amongst the hardiest MC's out there right now, still very fighty, has a good number of upgrade options, and is significantly cheaper than basically everything but a relatively barebones (and *FAR* less capable) Daemon Prince.




Henchmen rock, but I mean that in their customizable and pure inquisition way. They are not, however, as great as you seem to think. Almost everyone of them have the stats of your basic guardsman and a 5+ save, so their not going to be the most well protected bunch. While you can spam plasma and melta's it sounds better than it would actually turn out on a BS 3 model with a crappy save who is near guaranteed to die the next turn. Hasn't seemed to hamper IG too much, and the 16% reduction in shooting hits is more than made up for by the humongously cheap cost and no limit on weapons, not to mention cheaper plasma guns.


In addition, unless you want to roll with Coteaz every game, your squads are limited to the number of inquisitor's taken as HQ and by the number that can fit in a transport (so 1 -2 squads max). Don't get me wrong, they're good but IMHO not OP. As fire support they are a bit too cheap. with Coteaz you're going to see MechVets done better (yeah, BS3 instead of BS4, but considering you can get 5 meltas on a 5 man squad in a Chimera for about the cost of a 5man Tac squad with a Powerfist).




Small correction but it would only take 360 BS3 lasgun shots; admittedly not a small number of lasgun shots though. The Paladins have 2 wounds, and thus a 5man squad has 10 wounds.To get through that with Lasguns, 720 shots results in 360 hits, 120 wounds, 20 failed armor saves, 10 failed Feel No Pain rolls, meaning a total of 10 unsaved wounds.



Moreover, rumors have it that the 2++ warding stave might only grant a 2++ invulnerable save in CC (which would drastically reduce that las gun figure above). If that's the case then you will deal with them like every other Termie squad. I'm hoping so, but this is the first I've heard of that. That would be a great balancer.


Yeah, they'll have an extra wound each for only 15 pts but (a) they aren't immune to ID, (b) they don't have access to stromshields so there are no wound allocation tricks to worry about, Looking at the Paladin entry they very much can play wound allocation gimmicks. You can have an Apothecary, two different heavy weapons, give one guy a master crafted weapon and leave the last guy otherwise unupgraded besides the warding stave and you have 5 unique models.



(c) they may have twice as many wounds but their stats are not twice as good as a normal Terminator Well, it's hard to define "twice" as good, however with two wounds, force weapons, psychic powers, higher WS, etc. they certainly are a whole lot better.


and finally (d) they aren't troop choices like the other Terminators unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for a special character which just adds to the cost of the whole unit. Who is also one of the most killy and hard to kill characters in the game.


If you ask me, I'd relish seeing that large a unit in a regular game as it means that unit of less then 10 models is HALF of your opponents army. Think of it this way, at best that unit can only destroy 6 units IF the game goes to turn 7 AND they assault on turn 2, AND they are in charging range of every unit every turn (this of course assumes that the Paladin unit isn't progressively getting weaker as time goes by as well). The problem isn't going to be if your opponent takes a huge number of them, it's if they take a single well rounded 3-5man unit and still have a ton of points left over for super cheap henchmen.




As you can probably tell, I disagree with you completely. My prediction is that this book will come out and be every bit as terrifying as every other codex that comes out...which is to say that it's bark will prove to be bigger than it's bite. Trust me, the sky isn't falling yet.We'll see, obviously time will tell, I could be totally wrong. However this is the same author who wrote a book that nigh single handedly killed off more than one WHFB gaming group from personal experience.

[DrLove42]

I don't actually think they are undercosted at all. It's 130 for the base unit = two fists and that's it. 75 pts if you want it to be able to deepstrike. And it's 30-40 pts for each gun weapon (unless you want a better CC weapon which is cheaper).

If we assume the leaked is accurate, the dreadknight HAS to enter play via deepstrike. The personal teleporter makes it a jump monstrous creature.

Not knowing what the weapons profile is its hard to compare it. But if you call it with no weapons just CC weapons and compare its stat line with other CC monstrous creatures (such as the Avatar, Nids bugs) it is cheap.

Compared to the avatar, the avatar is 155pts, so more expensive. The dreadknight has a better armour save, a better invulnerable, its not a demon with their inherit weaknesses, always deepstrikes, has more attacks, better toughness and strength. It loses the 1 shot melta attack and its a Heavy Support not HQ.

To me....thats a steal. Once we know what its guns do you can weigh it against the Wraithlords. It'll be more expensive than the equivilent wraithlord, but then it gets better saves and attacks. So that'd need weight differently...

[erwos]

a few notes:
Jokaero have a built-in nerf when you take more than a few of them. Having more than 1 forces you to modify the weapon table +1 (remember, you only roll once before the game no matter how many monkeys you have)... and if you get multiple sixes you get nothing. With 5+ monkeys, you automatically get no upgrades since you'll always roll 6+. So there's no fear of 12 rending-lascannon-shots-with-extended range™.
Assuming you just discard duplicate rolls and don't reroll them ("ignore" is odd wording), anyways. I actually got the impression that they were asking you to reroll, but we'll see. The issue is more taking two than six.

[DarkLink]

The Dreadknight can teleport onto the field standard. The 75 point homers are there for other units wishing to deep strike near him. The Knight is still too cheap, even with guns, especially compared to the Tyranid Monstrous Creatures.

It may be able to deepstrike standard. That does not mean it can teleport standard. The 75pt upgrade is not a teleport homer. It makes the Dreadknight Jump Infantry, and doing that makes it very expensive.

And I won't even point out how senseless it is to whine about how underpriced and overpowered a unit is until you've played it a few times within the context of the whole codex... ok, so maybe I will point it out.



The Paladins are a good (in many respects) however, like Tyranid Warriors, have one fatal flaw - they do not have Eternal Warrior. So a squad of TH/SS Termies from C:SM should be able to beat them down. It would be a tough fight but the Termies should be able to at least really hurt the Paladin squad, since each unsaved wound is an insta-kill.

If you ignore the few 2++ saves you'll have in the paladin squad, and the fact that some of the others will get a 4++ and possibly a 3++ in CC thanks to the Nemesis Force Sword, and the fact that they hit first with a bunch of power weapon attacks that should kill 1-2 THSS Terminators first... but, yeah, a bunch of THSS Termies will be a decent way to try and kill them.

Of course, a GKSS will have enough stormbolters and power weapons that they can wipe out 5 THSSs on the charge...

[Tynskel]

a few notes:

Jokaero have a built-in nerf when you take more than a few of them. Having more than 1 forces you to modify the weapon table +1 (remember, you only roll once before the game no matter how many monkeys you have)... and if you get multiple sixes you get nothing. With 5+ monkeys, you automatically get no upgrades since you'll always roll 6+. So there's no fear of 12 rending-lascannon-shots-with-extended range™.

purgation squad's no LOS-to shoot spell: it says the target "has" a x+ cover save (that cannot be modified at all) against the attack.

does this mean that it overrides the target having stealth, since stealth modifies cover saves?
even if the target has a better cover save (such as in bolstered ruins) does the targets cover save gets downgraded?
how does that work with template weapons that ignore cover saves? is ignoring a cover save concidered a modification, or an override?


Purifies and the burning-people-in-combat spell: the obvious perk is that it burns enemies that are not directly engaged with the purifiers, so you just need to charge one enemy model to torch the entire enemy squad (great for hordes). but... it can be REALLY abused with Multiple Combats... by using another friendly squad to charge TWO or more enemy squads, you charge the purifiers into one enemy squad. By RAW, it's all one assault, so all the enemies in the assault conga-line get torched, even if an enemy squad doesn't have anyone engaged with the Purifiers. (see pic below)
http://silvercompassdesigns.com/personal/purifier-bug.jpg



your picture is a perfect example how people read the multi-charge rules wrong. You *must* move toward the intended target unit, and only when you satisfy all the subsequent rules (like coherency, engaging unengaged enemy models, moving towards engaged enemy models) can you assault a second unit. That blue unit would only go toward one or the other units, there is no physical way, from your diagram, that the blue unit can engage 2 units.

[DarkLink]

To be more precise, each model you move must be in coherency with the model before it. You can't just move models as you see fit and spread out the unit as you want and just check to make sure you're in coherency after the fact.

You start with the closest model, then move the rest of the unit one by one. Each model must try to engage an enemy and maintain coherency during its individual movement.

Now, it is possible in some cases to pull off a charge like the one in the picture. It's just much trickier to legally do it than most people think.

[bonedale]

Part inspired from Hero's blog list and units I just want to try out. Obviously I don't know what the wargear looks like.

As a old-time GK player I just had to:
1. mech up because my GKs have "rarely" seen the inside of a rhino
2. Dreadknight because I can
3. Paladin, see above
4. Crap, no room for Draigo

2000

HQ:
Grand Master with Falchions
Castellan Crowe

ELITE:
4 Paladins (bare bones)

TROOP:
10x GKSS (Rhino, 2x Psycannons)
10x Purifier (Rhino, Halberds)
10x Purifier (Rhino, Halberds)

HEAVY:
Dreadknight (heavy Psycannon, Doom Fist)
Dreadknight (gatling psilencer, Doom Fist)
Land Raider Crusader (5 pts extra)

[Lerra]

To be more precise, each model you move must be in coherency with the model before it. You can't just move models as you see fit and spread out the unit as you want and just check to make sure you're in coherency after the fact.

What? No. If this were true, you wouldn't be able to charge a unit that was 5" away. The first model you moved would be out of coherency.

The unit has to be coherency when you're done moving it, but it doesn't need to be in coherency while you're moving.

Also, the rulebook says that you must engage as many enemy models as possible. It doesn't say anything about the models being in the same squad. The purpose of the rule is so you're not holding back to deny your opponent the ability to swing back at you. As long as you are getting B2B with as many models as possible and maintaining coherency, you're fine.

[Dagron XIII]

a few notes:

Jokaero have a built-in nerf when you take more than a few of them. Having more than 1 forces you to modify the weapon table +1 (remember, you only roll once before the game no matter how many monkeys you have)... and if you get multiple sixes you get nothing. With 5+ monkeys, you automatically get no upgrades since you'll always roll 6+. So there's no fear of 12 rending-lascannon-shots-with-extended range™.

purgation squad's no LOS-to shoot spell: it says the target "has" a x+ cover save (that cannot be modified at all) against the attack.
[LIST]
does this mean that it overrides the target having stealth, since stealth modifies cover saves?
even if the target has a better cover save (such as in bolstered ruins) does the targets cover save gets downgraded?
how does that work with template weapons that ignore cover saves? is ignoring a cover save concidered a modification, or an override?


My understanding was that you would reroll any doubles with the Jakaero and that the bonus for each additional Jakaero only applied to the first roll, but I can see your logic as well. As for the Astral Aim, the only template weapons they have that ignores cover is the incinerator, which generally will give you LOS so don't use the power. IF there were some odd situation where you would be in range but couldn't see because of a wall then I would assume the opponent gets a 4+ cover save (the flame is going around corners after all so it's not as good at soaking an area I guess). As for it overriding stealth, I would say yes. It's essentially a heat seaking bullet, the opponent gets some cover but they are far more exposed than they normally would be (that's my reading of the rule anyway).


You can upgrade their save to a 4+ for 4 points a model, or 3+ for 10. The BS3 is a killer but the sheer volume of fire you will have (and extra range thanks to a Jokaero) more than makes up for that problem. They are by no means broken but since the meta favors easy spam of good weapons we will be seeing a bunch of Henchmen armies, especially since Coteaz is just 100 points.

Personally, I wouldn't spend that many points to give a model with those stats a 3+ save. Also, the Jokaero is no guarantee to get the extra range and your adding 35pts a model just to get the chance. Maybe it's worth it, but I'd have to play it out to see in the long run. I agree though that Henchmen armies will be seen in force. I love them simply for the fluff, but I can see some...less than plessant...spam lists.


There's been no indication that warding staves are a 2++ in combat only. They've been stated to be a 2++ always.

It's Nemesis Force Swords that give you +1 to you invulnerable save in CC only.


Well, it's funny quibling over which rumors you believe when there are some that aren't consistent. If you look at the leaked copy (which I've seen), then you can take as many warding staves as you want and there is no indication that nemesis force swords add to the invulnerable save. On the other hand, if you look at BoK website then he says warding staves can only be taken 1 per squad and "all nemesis force weapons" (emphasis added) add +1 to your invlunerable save. As for the warding stave, I remember a discussion on Warseer...thinking about it, I'm not sure if it was a rumor pulled from another site or someone's thought....If I can find it somewhere else, I'll edit this post with confirmation.

EDIT: I scoured some other sites and on HO it looks like someone just happened think that a 2++ save would make sense in CC. This likely caught fire on Warseer and was discussed there. I can't be sure though since Warseer took down the rumor compilation thread for potential IP infringment. However, my bad.



The Paladins have 2 wounds, and thus a 5man squad has 10 wounds.To get through that with Lasguns, 720 shots results in 360 hits, 120 wounds, 20 failed armor saves, 10 failed Feel No Pain rolls, meaning a total of 10 unsaved wounds.

Looking at the Paladin entry they very much can play wound allocation gimmicks. You can have an Apothecary, two different heavy weapons, give one guy a master crafted weapon and leave the last guy otherwise unupgraded besides the warding stave and you have 5 unique models.

The problem isn't going to be if your opponent takes a huge number of them, it's if they take a single well rounded 3-5man unit and still have a ton of points left over for super cheap henchmen.


Ahh, you were purchasing FnP, understood. Also, I can see how wound allocation tricks may come into play. I agree that 3-5 man squads are the best idea (personally I like 3) but if the opponent is really going to run with the paladins as troops then I would expect to see 9-10 out there. As for Draigo, he's hard to kill but he's only one man. I'd avoid the lot of them (or concentrate on part of them) if my opponent is investing that many points. I suppose, my opinion is that you probably won't see a Paladin list running wild at the tourney's; but that is just my prediction.

[Alessander]

people are taking offense my diagram. I don't care about how a unit engages two units, i'm just saying if a unit engages 2 enemy units, a friendly purifier squad just needs to engage one of those enemy units to cause damage to all enemies.

The wording with Astral Aim that says the target "has a x+ cover save" seems to get around any better save, including turbo-boosted bikes. Could come in handy against Dark Eldar...

[DarkLink]

The details of the assault move aren't really the important part, yeah. I think a unit of Purifiers will be a valuable addition to any GK army for this (and other) reason, especially against horde armies.


What? No. If this were true, you wouldn't be able to charge a unit that was 5" away. The first model you moved would be out of coherency.


From the BRB, pg 34:

"The most important [rule] is that an assaulting model must end its assault move within coherency of another model in its own unit that has already moved."

Move model A. Then move model B into 2" coherency with model A. The move model C into 2" coherency with model A or C. And so on and so forth.

I'm right:p.



Well, it's funny quibling over which rumors you believe when there are some that aren't consistent.

EDIT: I scoured some other sites and on HO it looks like someone just happened think that a 2++ save would make sense in CC. This likely caught fire on Warseer and was discussed there. I can't be sure though since Warseer took down the rumor compilation thread for potential IP infringment. However, my bad.


Yeah, it's annoying how often people like to latch on to not-rumors and spread them around. When all we have to go off of is a limited amount of leaked info, even a little misunderstanding somewhere goes a long way.

[Alessander]

found another "bug"

Callidus Assassin's Polymorphine: it says you can use it against any "enemy unit". Since any "unit" can also be any vehicle, it doesn't specify which Armor Value facing you roll the damage against. You place the girl after rolling for damage, so you can't use that as a gauge. Logic may say lowest armor (back) value but you may want to position her in a different arc to make use of the neural shredder, and since the Polymorphine attack has an AP you don't get the auto-rear arc benefit that assaults

[DarkLink]

Seeing as the leaked pdf is likely only a draft and does not necessarily contain the final rules, I wouldn't get nit-picky on wording. Wait until we have the actual codex in hand to do that.

And what happened to that GK vs Everyone article on the blog? It was up for an hour or so, then it disappeared.

[Alessander]

Seeing as the leaked pdf is likely only a draft and does not necessarily contain the final rules, I wouldn't get nit-picky on wording. Wait until we have the actual codex in hand to do that.

And what happened to that GK vs Everyone article on the blog? It was up for an hour or so, then it disappeared.

it's a layout proof, meaning that it likely won't change except for layout changes (ie the "page xx" stuff). If the graphic designer was astute enough to notice these, he may change it, but probably not.

[eldargal]

Assuming its real, of course. The common sense thing is simply to wait for the real codex before getting too het up about things. Even then, just do what I do if I find a codex particularly overpowered: Refuse to play against it.

[isotope99]

I may not have seen the very latest version, but the last one I saw looked like anyone with enough time and access to the right font could have put it together. It also had some wording in it that felt a little false.

GW apparently did stamp on it pretty hard so there's likely some truth in it but don't be surprised if the final version looks different, particualrly re points costs and details of how wargear and powers work.

Are we seriously expecting the magic monkey 'Jokaero' to be in the final cut? It sounds like an April fool to me :confused:

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I'd bet it is real, but I doubt it's the final version. So it's close enough to being correct, but wording and some point costs might change.

[Xzarol]

Heyo! My thread on general was locked since I mentioned Grey Knights briefly, so I've decided to migrate here!

I'm quite excited about the new codex! I've been reading over it, and the more I look at it the more legitimate it seems to me.

Playtesting it, even without wargear, gives you a pretty good feel for the army, and it plays quite well.

On a sidenote, does anyone know if there is any place that can/will sell custom templates?

[plawolf]

I may not have seen the very latest version, but the last one I saw looked like anyone with enough time and access to the right font could have put it together. It also had some wording in it that felt a little false.

GW apparently did stamp on it pretty hard so there's likely some truth in it but don't be surprised if the final version looks different, particualrly re points costs and details of how wargear and powers work.

Are we seriously expecting the magic monkey 'Jokaero' to be in the final cut? It sounds like an April fool to me :confused:

I for one hope the Jokaero make the cut, simply because I want to model them after the evil monkey from family guy. :D

I have seen the leaked codex, it looks very convincing, but I hope its not the final version. I especially hope the change the weapons options for the likes of the razorback and dreds to give them some GK specific weapons options, like psycannons at the very least.

Even BA got their own chapter specific weapons upgrades for their dreds, and the frag cannon would make for a passible psycannon stand-in, so its not even like GW would need to release new models for it. Although a TL psycannon upgrade box (along with other things) for razorbacks and LRs would be sweet.

Another thing I find interesting is how everyone is obsessing about stave equipped Paladins, when Ghost termies seem to also be able to be all equipped with staves and cost less than a naked Paladin with a stave.

[DarkLink]

Katie Drake from Heresy Online has added a few things:

1. Yes, all GKs have force weapons. This means they all have power weapons. Due to their squad psyker rules, they get to use one force weapon per turn, not each and every one in the squad. They still are power weapons, though.

2. Storm Bolters don't count as pistols.

3. Warding Staves are a 2++ in CC only.

4. Psyflame ammo may grant storm bolters rending. Psybolt ammo is +1 str.

Still don't know what psilencers do. GKs strike me as still being fairly fragile, with lots of very expensive models with poor invulnerable saves. They have plenty of awesome stuff to make up for that, though.

There are a few things I hope they change, too. For one thing, Techmarines suck. I don't know why GW hasn't gotten the message from all the other Marine codices in which Techmarines suck, but it would be nice to see decent rules for them.

Crowe sucks. Granting any enemy unit that assaults him is horrible. Everything else about him is great, but he isn't worth it with that rule.

Certain upgrades are way overpriced. Unless apothecaries grant FNP to all units within 6", 75pts is way, way too much, especially considering how vulnerable Paladins are to lascannons. In order to make the apothecary upgrade worth it, you need to take as many paladins as you can, but so far it looks like Paladins will only be good as small, tough little hammer units that you can keep hidden from enemy lascannons and pulse lasers.

[Kervin]

Ok, I have come here to get my GK rumor fix, because the site I normaly go to will lock a thread for IP infringment for just say GK it seems like. The one thing I have noticed is that you are going to need to mech up to deal with protection from shooting, and all the up grades to invuls are for CC only. I am hopeing that the document that every one is talking about is a vary, vary early draft of the real thing.

[Lemt]

So the new, unfinished dex is going around. Here I'm going to talp about the different units, but normal rules apply. That is, I won't talk about costs, rules texts, or anything of the sort. I'll assume you either have seen the spoilers
I'm also NOT going to go reviewing each and every unit type, I'll just mention those I think will probably be the best bang for your buck (as in points, not cash), aiming at competitive play.
So, after this (very short) introduction, I'll get started.

-Scoring Dreadknights: Grand Masters are good HQs by their own right, and Dreadknights are one of the more durable MCs to be released in a long time. They laugh at missile launchers, and even plasma and Lascannons will have a hard time dealing with them. Their toughness means most normal units won't even be able to damage them in close combat (neither will small-arms fire harm them). And if you're willing to up the cost to that of a Trygon, you'll get a VERY fast monster, so no need to build your army around a slogger.

-Coteaz Inquisitors, Shooty: If you think Melta-Plasmagun spam aboard Chimaeras was cheesy with IG, you'll hate GKs. At a much lower admission price you get even greater firepower. 5 of those guns per Chimaera as your troops choices! You can have more, but those extra guns would be lost. In addition to this, you can have S10-AP1-large-blasting-psykers ALSO as troops (as much as I hate relying on Psy tests). Servitors aren't such a good spammy option as they pretty much require Inquisitorial overseeing, but Jokaeros may be a good option, even if only one per Chimaera.

-Coteaz Inquisitors, Melee: Death-cult Assasins make Genestealers look bad. You can either take them in pure D-CA units, or combine them with some meltas to pop transports. From foot-sloggin in pure horde fashion to LR insertion, these can serve as some of the best assault troops in the game. Did I mention they are troops, and dirt cheap?

-Anval Thwan's Unyielding Terminators: Getting this upgrade charactor may seem costly. However, He's the hardets to (permanently) kill troop in the game, with an unavoidable We'll Be Back rule where death isn't permanent even if you fail the rez roll. If you play Terminators in your army I can't see any reason NOT to play him, other than unavoidable points-shaving issues. But a Troop choice that can never be truly killed for good? And grants no bonus Kill Points (or none at all)? Sign me up!



So, what other good units and ocmbinations do you see or find that aren't inmediately apparent as good choices? I don't think Paladin Armies are a great idea, because they are mostly point-sinks, and for Purifier armies you need the not-so-great Crowe (you really want to buff the enemy?). And Ghost Knights are IMHO too unreliable, specially considering for less points you can have troops.

Of course, if you disagree with me (or agree) please comment!

[graylor]

I was surprised when I saw Katie Drake's post about the warding staves being only 2++ in CC only. I thought that with the NF Sword being +1 invulnerable in CC that the staves were 2++ in general. I assumed incorrectly as she is usually spot on.

Not sure what to do with the pallies now. Tough as nails of course in CC but no TH/SS combo makes them fragile getting across the board and expensive.

[DarkLink]

I think a Librarian and a Dreadnought or two will be great in pretty much every list. The Librarian is extremely versatile thanks to our awesome psychic powers, and the Dread's reinforced Aegis makes enemy offensive psychic powers useless. Between the psychic hood and aegis, you're never going to have to worry about any psychic power that directly targets your dudes.

A Grand Master is equally useful for either scoring or for outflanking shennanigans, and leading some form of unit in CC.

Dreadknights will be standard for every open Heavy Slot you haven't taken something else for. If they can deepstrike

As for troops, I think a core of GKSS with psycannons for surpressing fire will be vital. Then take a Purifier squad in a Land Raider and stick your Grand Master in it for a nasty assault unit. A ton of I5/S5 power weapons, plus Cleansing Flame, Storm Bolters and a couple of Warding Staves. Back it up with a Librarian for Might of Titans, and you have a relatively cheap unit that can take on all sorts of stuff.

Thrawn, though, is too expensive for what you get. You basically pay 75 points to give one dude WBB on a 4+. You might as well just buy another two guys. The rules say you "upgrade" a justicar to Thrawn, meaning that you have a one wound model worth 115pts. Thrawn's abilities aren't nearly that good.


Mordrack, though, is a great deal for your GM. You not only get 4W, but you get an 80pt discount on a 10-man Terminator unit. If you build your army around that, you're getting a pretty good deal.

[DarkLink]

As it stands now, I think Paladins won't be very good. They're pretty fragile if they get caught in the open, meaning you're going to need to stick them in a transport. That means they're going to have to have a small squad size. That means that the apothecary upgrade is absurldy expensive, so no one will take it. The weapons that hurt them ignore FNP anyways.

Plus, Paladins don't actually have that much punch on the charge. You can match their damage output with much cheaper units. In fact, you can buy two Purifiers per Paladin, and fit a few warding saves in the squad, and you'll end up with just as many wounds, twice as many attacks, and you don't have to worry about instant death.And you get Cleansing fire out of the deal.

I think everyone will whine about Paladins, but our real hammer units will be Purifiers. A fully decked out Purifier squad will be around 300pts, max. Another 200 for a Grand Master, and 250 for a Land Raider, and then spam GKSS in Rhinos with psycannons. Find somewhere to fit a Librarian in. There's your army.

[bonedale]

So is Crowes rule an error? I mean seriously, it makes no sense otherwise. It would have to be HIS unit that gets FC. [just reread the rule! I can't believe it. It's like we're back to our old Stern strands of fate rule, oh wait, we are!

All this talk about Death Cult Assassins. I've played with them. They are paper. I'm not a Nid player, so I am not used to getting shot up before I assault.

Storm Bolters as pistols. As much as I wanted this, it was waaay overpowered. So I am glad that is not the case. Purifiers are that much more appealing. GKSS as fire support and then zap to where needed.

I can't wait. I really want to see some new paint styles too. It should be a killer dex.

[Mr.Pickelz]

are we still being limited to 1 grandmaster? if not then Draigo+ mordrack with his DS unit. hit turn 1, no scatter.

or have mordrack with a lib so the Lib can teleport paladins across the table so you won't have to walk them.

[plawolf]

I think death cult assassins and crusaders mixed squads might make a surprisingly effective and cheap CC unit.

If you max out the squad and take half of each, you got a unit that has a decent amount of power weapon attacks (24 base, 36 on the charge) 18/24(on the charge) of those will be S4 WS5, giving you a pretty decent wound output potential.

You also have 6 storm shields to take the edge off enemy shooting and CC attacks. Being 12 models, the whole lot of them could fit in a Storm Raven and be in CC by turn 2 even. Although if you are going to do that, it might make more sense to go 8 crusader 4 DCA and using the DCA like your normal hidden PW/PF serg to fully take advantage of the combo, so you get 3++ save and DCA CC madness without having to take too many (or any at all if you are good and lucky) saves on flak armor in CC.

[plawolf]

are we still being limited to 1 grandmaster? if not then Draigo+ mordrack with his DS unit. hit turn 1, no scatter.

or have mordrack with a lib so the Lib can teleport paladins across the table so you won't have to walk them.

Why bother with Paladins when you can bring in a dreadknight or Purifier squad instead?

Warriors make the best tarpits, Purifiers are the best crowd control and a dreadknight is just a slap in the face.

[graylor]

Pretty sure there are no restrictions on gm. was thinking the same thing about the Libby. also we now have dread knights and suppression fire. have to be smart in using the lobby's but I think that's part of the challenge.

[DarkLink]

So is Crowes rule an error?

I certainly hope so, because that rule makes an otherwise sweet character useless.


are we still being limited to 1 grandmaster? if not then Draigo+ mordrack with his DS unit. hit turn 1, no scatter.

or have mordrack with a lib so the Lib can teleport paladins across the table so you won't have to walk them.

The leaked pdf makes no mention of any 0-1 limit.

[Lordgimpet]

one thing i have noticed reading the document is how potent a Culexus Assasin's Animus Speculum can become in this army, as it only states psyker within 12 increases its assult value by 2, now after mucking about with a hypothectical 1750 list and deployment and with 7 friendly psyker units placed within 12 could net him a 16 str 5 ap1 shots .. daym. I also notice the 0-1 limit seems reduced so you could have 1 assasin per elite slot and they can gain the benifit of grand strategy if the player chooses. though ill still stick with a Vindicare :) and yes i belive he retains his targeting goodness

lastly even as it is i feel any eldar players running seers with warding will be causing headaches for the GK player

as for crowe i dont thing its a mistake as the deamon weapon he wields is probably trying to kill him, thing is though rending on 4+ more than makes up for it

[bonedale]

GW is clever giving Reinforced Aegis to the Ven Dread and not the Dreadknight. That reinforced aegis is good stuff. How am I going to fit that into a list is beyond me.

Anyone taking a Redeemer? Since it's not a GK Redeemer, I still think the crusader fits better. Especially with ammo upgrades depending on how those shake down.

And come on, what old timer GK player isn't going to take Draigo and Paladin company out for a revenge tour? I know I am for a least a few games. Ignore objectives and just go in and kill everything in your bubble. Yea, I will lose the battle, but I need to exact revenge for all those years of suffering to higher initiative, reroll this and that, endless wounds and attacks, etc. Once I cause enough fear, I can go to a more reasonable list.

[plawolf]

Yes, it was made clear from the start that you could now have multiple assassins. But each type is still unique, so you can't have more than one of each (for shame! But probably fair).

Grey Knights seem a little light on Hoods at the moment, but their dreds do have reinforced agies, and they have more transport options.

There are also plenty of powers and equipment we do not know about yet. Emptyrelm mind mines and warp stablisation fields sounds like they might have some anti psyke potential, and lets not forget pretty much every GK unit have psyke out grenades.

I wouldn't count them as weak against psyke attack just yet.

There is also the anti-psyk nuclear option of the Culexes if mind tricks are really annoying you.

But with Mordrack's ability, you could have a hood right in the middle of your enemy's army turn 1, which should be able to easy shut all his psykers down from the get go.

[Lucian Kain]

I kinda like the idea of something like:

Draigo275

5 Palidins275
StormRaven235 TLMM/TLPC Hbolters

5 Palidins275
StormRaven235 TLMM/TLPC Hbolters

5 Palidins275
StormRaven235 TLMM/TLPC Hbolters

1805,pts then play with wargear and then either dread/DK

Psybolts on everything,maybe even the SR would be cool if that can happen.

[Lordgimpet]

I was making a point of a seer with warding will be forcing all those shiny GK to be rolling 3d6 psy tests. and on a bad day for the inquision gk's may be killing them selves to get a power off.

[Lerra]

I playtested a quick list, and I have to say the MVP was a cheap inquisitorial warband. For 93 points, you get a chimera with multilaser and heavy bolter, filled with 4 warriors with storm bolters and a lone psyker. That's 8 S4 shots, 3 S5 shots, 3 S6 shots, and a S3 AP6 large blast for under 100 points, it's scoring with Coteaz, and it has a pretty respectable range. Not a bad support unit.

[Lemt]

Thrawn, though, is too expensive for what you get. You basically pay 75 points to give one dude WBB on a 4+. You might as well just buy another two guys. The rules say you "upgrade" a justicar to Thrawn, meaning that you have a one wound model worth 115pts. Thrawn's abilities aren't nearly that good.

However, you Re-roll that WBB every turn, it's not a one-shot thing (at least from what I've read). I'm willing to pay 115 points for a miniature that can hold an objective by itself for the whole game. Even if he dies, he might get back up again to contest it.


All this talk about Death Cult Assassins. I've played with them. They are paper. I'm not a Nid player, so I am not used to getting shot up before I assault.

Tyranid player here, so I understand what you mean. However, Tyranids can't place Genestealers inside Land Raiders and Storm Ravens, and they can't give Genestealers some dudes with Meltaguns to be able to crack open transports before assaulting.


Is anyone else missing more Large Blasts in the codex, however? I hate depending on Psy tests so VERY much, and I have no idea how orbital bombarding will work (other than the same as the old codex).

Also, Warrior warbands with Flamers, just for the lulz. A Chimaera with 5 of those warriors is cheapish, and may be the best answer available to horde armies, if you fear that kind of thing.

Speaking of warbands, what are everyone's thoughts on Crusaders? They feel more like a cheap way to add durable wounds to a unit, but I want to try a mini-Deathstar for the lulz. For the price of a Land raider you can get 5 Warriors with Fists and Shields, and if you add 7 Crusaders to act as extra wounds, well, imagine that footslogging towards you. A real WTF moment.

[DrLove42]

Thrawn is pretty useful to my eyes.

a) He's part of the squad. Since he never dies the squad he's attached to will never be destroyed....so no KP or VP

b) The objective holding power is horrific. Imagine the GK player going 2nd, and him getting up last turn. Hes part of a troops choice so could hold it (i think)

c) Related to b) it holds one unit up. To be able to guarentee he doesn't get back up and take an objective you need to leave a squad there to contest it

He strikes me like the Necron Lord HQ from Dawn of Warl Dark Crusade. He'd wander into your homebase in the first few minutes, die, and he'd keep getting up, drawing fire, then dying again every few minutes...really annoying

[DarkLink]

Ah, I missed the reroll every turn. That might just be worth it, then.

[bonedale]

I playtested a quick list, and I have to say the MVP was a cheap inquisitorial warband. For 93 points, you get a chimera with multilaser and heavy bolter, filled with 4 warriors with storm bolters and a lone psyker. That's 8 S4 shots, 3 S5 shots, 3 S6 shots, and a S3 AP6 large blast for under 100 points, it's scoring with Coteaz, and it has a pretty respectable range. Not a bad support unit.

I like the idea of warbands. The INQ freak show contrasted by the GKs is what brought me to DH many moons ago, however, I think they need to be built to offer what GKs can't do. That chimera is packed full of what mass storm bolters can do. As much as I hate the melta band wagon, I think the warband offering up high S, low AP stuff is our best bet. Half the chim full of melta warriors, the other half a psy battle squad. Or something like that. Then we can pop those land raiders full of TH/SS termies before they smash into us.

[Lemt]

So in other words, the enemy has to play assuming he's at best going to tie the objective where Thrawn is. Looks like a good thing to me!


I like the idea of warbands. The INQ freak show contrasted by the GKs is what brought me to DH many moons ago, however, I think they need to be built to offer what GKs can't do. That chimera is packed full of what mass storm bolters can do. As much as I hate the melta band wagon, I think the warband offering up high S, low AP stuff is our best bet. Half the chim full of melta warriors, the other half a psy battle squad. Or something like that. Then we can pop those land raiders full of TH/SS termies before they smash into us.

4 Melta Warriors and 8 Psykers in a Chimera cost less than a Storm Raven, so it looks like a solid troops choice indeed. Plus they help cover the lack of blasts GKs seem to suffer otherwise.

This may seem odd, but I was thinking about a Horde GK army. A unit of 11 crusaders and 1 Warrior with a PFist and Storm Shield (maybe Meltabombs too) comes at the price of a Storm Raven. 6 of these marching towards you would make a nice backbone for an army. Sure, it's "only" 72 T3 bodies in a 1500+ point army (1250 if you cut some bodies or run less units), but they all have 3++ saves. That means you normally don't have to worry about cover, as your base save is better anyhow. They have few attacks and at a low strenght compared to most hordes, but every attack is a power weapon attack, so it balances out somewhat. However, I really find the lack of fleet and fearless painful to bear. Karamazov partly fixes this, but would it be enough?


On an unrelated note, I can't find anythign anywhere that says Assasins (the 4 big ones, I mean) can't enter transports. Sure, they aren't ICs and so can't join units, but having a Culexus or Vindicare firing from inside one he takes over may be better defense than what they have naturally.

[Lerra]

4 Melta Warriors and 8 Psykers in a Chimera cost less than a Storm Raven, so it looks like a solid troops choice indeed. Plus they help cover the lack of blasts GKs seem to suffer otherwise.
When I playtested this squad, the psykers failed their Ld on turn one and suffered a Perils on turn 2 and all died. Then the warriors failed their leadership and, because they were below half strength, couldn't regroup and ran off the table. Ouch. I'll have to try them again, but at Ld8 I'm not sure I'm sold on the group of 8 psykers. I loved the single psyker, though. For 10 points you get a S3 AP6 large blast, and if you get perils, you're only out one 10-point model.

[Lemt]

When I playtested this squad, the psykers failed their Ld on turn one and suffered a Perils on turn 2 and all died. Then the warriors failed their leadership and, because they were below half strength, couldn't regroup and ran off the table. Ouch. I'll have to try them again, but at Ld8 I'm not sure I'm sold on the group of 8 psykers. I loved the single psyker, though. For 10 points you get a S3 AP6 large blast, and if you get perils, you're only out one 10-point model.

Hmm, you make a good point there. What about the unit that stays with the HQ, would you use 3 Servitors and 2 Jokaerps there, or just the 3 Servitors plus Warriors?

[DarkLink]

This may seem odd, but I was thinking about a Horde GK army. A unit of 11 crusaders and 1 Warrior with a PFist and Storm Shield (maybe Meltabombs too) comes at the price of a Storm Raven. 6 of these marching towards you would make a nice backbone for an army. Sure, it's "only" 72 T3 bodies in a 1500+ point army (1250 if you cut some bodies or run less units), but they all have 3++ saves. That means you normally don't have to worry about cover, as your base save is better anyhow. They have few attacks and at a low strenght compared to most hordes, but every attack is a power weapon attack, so it balances out somewhat. However, I really find the lack of fleet and fearless painful to bear. Karamazov partly fixes this, but would it be enough?


Find a way to fit some actual melta in there, too. Never rely on CC to kill tanks, and especially never rely on one meltabomb per squad.

Your real problems have more to do with your lack of ability to react to your opponent. Any mech list can engage you at their discrescion, as they can just feed you speedbump units to tie you up while the rest of the army just blazes away. Any army with lots of attacks (nidz, orkz) will clean house against your dudes. SMs can drive up and rapid-fire one squad, then run away before you can really retaliate, then rinse and repeat. Meanwhile all you can do is run forward and make 3++ saves. You're spending 1300pts on nothing but mediocre (albeit fairly durable) CC. You have no real way of breaking through IG bubblewraps, and good luck killing TWCavalry even with that many power weapons.

[MuGGzy]

If this has been addressed I apologize, but is there now going to be an actual difference between NF Halberd and swords?

I am going to be REALLY bummed if I have to mass convert 30+ PAGKs to remove halberds if they are considered an "upgrade". Not to mention almost all my (15) GKTermies are modeled with swords since it used to be simply "NFW" and could be WYSIWYG'd with anything that looked like a high tech CC weapon.

[DarkLink]

Haliberds grant +1I. Swords grant +1 to a pre-existing invulnerable save, but for close combat only.

So on GKSS, you start out with just a plain force weapon, as you have no invulnerable save to improve. Or, for a few extra points, you can get +1 I.

On GKT, you get to pick between a 4++ save or +1 I.

On top of that, Nemesis Daemonhammers grant +1 Str, Falcions are lightning claws, and Warding Staves give a 2++ in close combat.


Some of the detail may change when the actual codex comes out.

[Vaktathi]

The radical changes to the Nemesis weapons has me sorta perturbed. I've got 12 metal GKT's, 7 of them with Halbers and 5 with Swords. While the GKT's got cheaper, they aren't as (I have a hard time seeing them on the same level as the 2+/3++ S8 TH/SS termi's) and it means that many current GKT units and models are going to have lots of trouble getting used properly, which I imagine is incentive to buy the new plastics unfortunately.

The Paladins however are an entirely different story :p

[BuFFo]

The radical changes to the Nemesis weapons has me sorta perturbed. I've got 12 metal GKT's, 7 of them with Halbers and 5 with Swords. While the GKT's got cheaper, they aren't as (I have a hard time seeing them on the same level as the 2+/3++ S8 TH/SS termi's) and it means that many current GKT units and models are going to have lots of trouble getting used properly, which I imagine is incentive to buy the new plastics unfortunately.

The Paladins however are an entirely different story :p

"See this Gray Knight squad here with all random weapons? They are all Nemesis Swords. Okay, let's play."

[MuGGzy]

so it looks like I will just have to paint the "Halberds" a different color from the standard NF "Pike" or "Pole Axe", the hell if I am going to convert 40 metal PAGKs.

[Hellstorm]

when i first hard that the halberds were going to be different that the swords i special ordered a few packs of the GK nemisis force weapons from the GW bitz page. because i converted all of my original grey knights to have swords when i first got them (i like the look of all swords and a halberd on the justicar better), all i need to do now is paint up the new weapons and then magnetize the arms. it should be an easy process. too bad they don't sell GKT arms separate :(

[DarkLink]

Conveniently, that Instant Mold stuff came out just in time to use to make extra arms for each dude as needed, so that you can fully magnetize them:D.


"See this Gray Knight squad here with all random weapons? They are all Nemesis Swords. Okay, let's play."

Exactly

[plawolf]

Just be glad you don't have to worry about magnitising metal GKT arms. The weight of them tend to make the arms droop downwards so its hard to do decent poses.

[Lemt]

So I've been thinking about a Death-Cult centered army, and these are the main possibilities I see (all aiming at 1500 or under):

A) A Grand Master, Coteaz, 2 Stormravens, 2 Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters, 2 groups of 6 Assassins and 5 Warriors with meltas: This has solid troops, and is a Turn 2 assault army. Dreadknights are deceptively durable, as are to a lesser extent Stormravens, so this list aims at presenting you with 4 targets that you have to destroy NOW. It has some points left over, so you could give the Knights Incinerators and still add extra armor to the ravens.

B) Coteaz, 3 Land Raiders, 3 groups of Assassins plus Melta Warriors: The amount of Assassins and Warriors varies depending on your preferred flavor of Land Raider, but it'll also be well under 1500, so you have space to tweak things. It's also an assault army, but one that needs melta or mass Lascannons to be dealt with. The main problem I see with this is that you need to get up close, and that's exactly when a Land Raider is most vulnerable.

C) Coteaz, 6 groups of Assassins and Melta Warriors in Chimaeras: Spam and Spam and Spam. It's sort of like IG Melta spam, only the cans inside also contain CC goodness. Get close, and fry everything with HFlamers from the Chimaeras and mass Melta fire. If they crack you open, assault (or prepare to be assaulted). This also adds up to under 1500 points.

C seems like possibly the best option, for many reasons. For one, it's much more flexible, as even 2 of those troops are very good in pretty much any army you want. And unlike pure Melta/Psyker Spam, the guys inside won't roll over to being assaulted. You can also put a single Psyker in those groups, as Lerra says it's a pretty good thing to do anyhow. However, I'm unsure if it should be instead, or in addition to, the 5 Melta Warriors. That lone Psyker would give some power VS horde, without sacrificing anti-mech and anti-assault.
In other words, that's a very cheap unit (well under 250 points for Assasins, Warriors, A Psyker and their Chimaera) that can kick *** in Mid Range fire, Close Range fire, and assault. Long Range isn't so hot, but you're GK, not IG.


EDIT: "I've been thinking" doesn't mean I want to play a DK army myself, I like termies too much for that. But I think they can be viable.

[Vaktathi]

"See this Gray Knight squad here with all random weapons? They are all Nemesis Swords. Okay, let's play."

Right for normal friendly games that's fine, but for those that do like to have WYSIWYG forces and for events where it's enforced/rewarded, it's a giant PITA.

[GrenAcid]

Right for normal friendly games that's fine, but for those that do like to have WYSIWYG forces and for events where it's enforced/rewarded, it's a giant PITA.

Life is a b****:D

As for UP Dredknight.....we have answer, its called massed splinter fire. Hexrifles, Crucible of Malediction, and Shattershard gonna be wanted, its shame they are one use only:(

[magodedisco]

So a quick look at one of the entries in the scan-dex- the Grey Knight Terminators- got me thinking that the Nemesis Daemonhammer is not +1 STR and probably functions more like a Power First. Hammerhand is described to be applied before Nemesis Daemon Hammer modifiers and that would only make sense if it doubled strength.

[DarkLink]

Well, there's Daemonhammers and there's Nemesis Daemonhammers. Nemesis DH are supposed to be +1 str, but plain Daemonhammers are supposedly different, and it would make sense if they were Thunderhammers in one form or another.



As for UP Dredknight....

You think the Dreadknight is underpriced;):p?

[magodedisco]

Well, there's Daemonhammers and there's Nemesis Daemonhammers. Nemesis DH are supposed to be +1 str, but plain Daemonhammers are supposedly different, and it would make sense if they were Thunderhammers in one form or another.

The entry I was speaking of refers to a "Nemesis Daemonhammer", implying that it does not simply add 1 STR.

[Hellstorm]

The entry I was speaking of refers to a "Nemesis Daemonhammer", implying that it does not simply add 1 STR.

on a second look, you might be right. because why would +1 STR be 10 pts (for the GKSS,) while +1 Init is only 5 pts? i personally think the initiative is way better than strength. but if it were a thunderhammer that was considered a force weapon (like all nemesis weapons are) then the points might be right.

while looking through the scan-dex the only mention to a normal deamonhammer i found was for some of the inquisitors, who don't wield nemesis weapons but normal versions instead.

well this is my two cents. hopefully we will know soon :D

[DarkLink]

They ought to change Crowe's rules from granting the enemy furious charge and reroll to hits to forcing Rage upon all enemies within a certain radius. That would be awesome. Stick him in a unit of Purifiers with some incinerators, and anything that gets too close has to move closer. That would take Crowe from being useless due to his rule, back to being awesome.

[Dagron XIII]

I agree, that would be pretty cool; although I still think it was a mistake in language and they actually meant to give Crowe's unit the furious charge. After all, preceding the rule it just mentioned that Crowe refuses to use the power of the sword which is then followed by a "however." Grammatically, using however after the paragraph before it implies that even though Crowe refuses to use the sword's power, it is still going to give him power in some way. That of course is a logical argument which is dependent on the writer actually writing well (which we all know doesn't always translate into the codex).

As for the Deamonhammer, I completely agree. Everyone seems to assume it will give +1 str from the rumors preceding this leaked codex but when we look at it; (1) the leaked codex doesn't contain a wargear section, (2) no rumormonger since it's release has been able to confirm that it gives +1 str, (3) it makes sense that GK would have some access to a power fist type weapon given that every other smurf army does, (4) it seems very odd that GW would create the nemesis deamonhammer and the regular daemonhammer (very confusing) and then fail to give any group besides...inquisitors, access to a power fist weapon, and finally, (5) all of that which you mentioned in your post magodedisco.

After all, why would it matter when the +1 str occurs if the hammer just gives a further +1 strength. Excellent point.

[Lemt]

I agree, that would be pretty cool; although I still think it was a mistake in language and they actually meant to give Crowe's unit the furious charge. After all, preceding the rule it just mentioned that Crowe refuses to use the power of the sword which is then followed by a "however." Grammatically, using however after the paragraph before it implies that even though Crowe refuses to use the sword's power, it is still going to give him power in some way. That of course is a logical argument which is dependent on the writer actually writing well (which we all know doesn't always translate into the codex).


The way I've read it, it simply means that he himself won't use the power of the sword. However, the sword wants to be used, so it calls for the holder's enemies to try to get hold of it.

But yeah, it should grant the enemy rage too.

[DarkLink]

Well, all it should grant is rage. The way it is is horrible. It takes Crowe from being a good SC to a really bad one. You can still use him, but that rule can lose you the game in the wrong circumstance, and there are plenty of other good HQs that don't have that disadvantage to take instead.

[GrenAcid]

You think the Dreadknight is underpriced;):p?

Yup, for now it seems so, 130pt for MC with S/T7 and 2+/4++?? Im gonna wait cuz for me that codex print we all saw smels like first idea of GK so maybe they change somthin.

For now Im more concerned about Purifier sq, they sound like "have your sang guard/death co/long fangs/ect were swarmed and killed by xenos? Dont worry, GW gives U new marines amazing at killin hordes, just press trigger on your Incenerator(it comes free!) & and if U still got swarmed we add some psychic power to kill them before they hit U"

And what on earth is "psilencer"???

[Morgan Darkstar]

And what on earth is "psilencer"???

A Device to make all the letter P's Silent :D

[Vaktathi]

The Dreadknight is very underpriced for its basic configuration. Sure it gets expensive after dropping a couple very impressive heavy weapons on it, but they aren't required and in its most basic form its hardier than just about anything but a Great Unclean One, and as killy or killier than anything but a Trygon or Bloodthirster, and generally ~40-50% cheaper than the units I just mentioned.

[Morgan Darkstar]

The Dreadknight is very underpriced for its basic configuration. Sure it gets expensive after dropping a couple very impressive heavy weapons on it, but they aren't required and in its most basic form its hardier than just about anything but a Great Unclean One, and as killy or killier than anything but a Trygon or Bloodthirster, and generally ~40-50% cheaper than the units I just mentioned.

and probably has eternal warrior and toughness 8 also unlike a trygon or carnifex

i am beginning to see why people hate SM's

[DarkLink]

... and as killy or killier than anything but a Trygon or Bloodthirster, and generally ~40-50% cheaper than the units I just mentioned.

Never compare stuff in a vacuum. Unless you're a scientist. What is worth 200pts in one army may be worth only 130 in another, depending on what other units are available in the codex. We won't know until the codex has been out for a little while and people have actual experience to base their claims on.

[Vaktathi]

Never compare stuff in a vacuum. Unless you're a scientist. What is worth 200pts in one army may be worth only 130 in another, depending on what other units are available in the codex. We won't know until the codex has been out for a little while and people have actual experience to base their claims on.
Lets be honest, the units I mentioned are also in armies that really aren't going to be on the same competitive level overall either. These are all heavy CC monsters in armies full of heavy CC monsters.

[Lemt]

The reason I think the DK is strong is because he needs heavy fire to be taken down, specifically the heavy fire that also needs to take down your tanks. T7 means he laughs at small-arms fire. 2+ armor means anything under plasma is pretty much useless, and even plasma will have a VERY hard time doing anything, so he calls for Melta and Lascannon fire. But his 4+ inv save means even THAT is unreliable.

Imagine you are shot by Twin-linked Lascannons, at skill 3 (say, Vendettas). It'll take, on average, 13 (12.8, sue me) shots to take you down. That's 4 Vendettas focus-firing, and having a bit of luck. Even if you buy Personal Teleporters, it's still a great deal, because they then have at best 2 turns to deal with you before you assault.

More Mathhammer. On average, this is how many shots itll take the enemy to bring you down:
-24 BS4 plasma shots, AKA 12 Guardsmen with plasmaguns rapid-firing .
-54 BS4 Missile Launcher shots, AKA 3 Long Fang squads shooting for 4-5 turns.
-18 BS4 Melta shots, AKA 18 Guardsmen with meltas, that's 6 Chimaera's worth.

In other words, he soaks up TONS of fire, and his destructive power forces the enemy to deal with him.


EDIT: For comparison's sake, here are Trygon numbers:
-7 BS3 TL Lascannon shots.
-13.4 BS4 plasma shots.
-10.8 BS4 Missile Launcher shots.
-10.8 BS4 Melta shots.

[Dagron XIII]

Except, as you say, he takes the "heavy fire that also needs to take down your tanks." In a codex where all other units cost a lot of points, and your choices of armor are very limited (take a DK and don't take a LR or dreadnaught), targeting him with meltas and plasma guns isn't taking away that much from your opponent. In today's game, every army has tools to take down tanks. Against GK these weapons will simply be dirrected at the DK. The DK's purpose in this is providing enough resilience that your opponent can't target all of your super expensive units with meltas, plasmas, etc. Besides, taken bare all he can do is get into CC. He won't move very fast bare so you'll probably deep strike him. Of course, even if you get him on turn 2 through psychic communion he can't shoot when he comes down and normal DS problems are present (landing in a unit, dangerous terrain, or far away from the enemy). The enemy then can simply move away from him and shoot. At BEST he might get into CC by turn three although it isn't inconceivable that he doesn't reach the enemy until turn 4. Even then, he only has 4 attacks (5 on the charge) and a possible psychic power going off (not guaranteed of course). By this time though, the unit he was going after might already be destroyed or have moved, etc. Even if he destroys that unit on turn 3 though, he has to foot slog it to another unit.

I'm not saying he isn't good. Indeed he is. But his best use will almost certainly require you to spend those expensive points on a gun. And yeah, he is resilient in CC and against shooting, but his attacks aren't crazy awesome like those CC MC you mentioned above. All in all, I don't think in this army he will be OP.

[Lemt]

I'm pretty sure he has a place. If you play Chimaeras, Land Raiders, Dreads, or even Stormravens, all those units require heavy weapons. And I'd probably always field Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters, that's why I compared them to Trygons (similar costs, after all).
Of course, not evry list will want to field them, but he'll be very good in those lists that do.

[DarkLink]

Lets be honest, the units I mentioned are also in armies that really aren't going to be on the same competitive level overall either. These are all heavy CC monsters in armies full of heavy CC monsters.

Heh, that too:rolleyes:



In other words, he soaks up TONS of fire, and his destructive power forces the enemy to deal with him.


Which is exactly what GKs will need to be competitive, considering their lack of models and heavy anti-tank.

[gcsmith]

besides u can just counter the DK by sacrificing a unit or two while destroying everything else so u can focus it down when the GK player has nothing else :)

[Lemt]

Heh, I just thought of something silly. Advance your DK, and the enemy tarpits him with, say ork mobs. Or pretty much any horde destined to keep him locked up. So Karamazov decides he has to win "by any means necessary", and BOOM.

Silly armies will be the end of me.

[Mr.Pickelz]

just noticed, but on the american site, Gk's are gettin taken down, the Termys aren't order able now. it just builds my excitement seeing that. :D why can't they come out NOW?!? :D

[Mr.Pickelz]

something that has me buged about the scan-dex, is the Warp Stabilization field, that vechiles get. would that get rid of perils or protect it from other psyker powers? Also, why no Twin-linked Psycannons like FW makes??? it would make perfect sense, being that their Gk's...

[Dagron XIII]

something that has me buged about the scan-dex, is the Warp Stabilization field, that vechiles get. would that get rid of perils or protect it from other psyker powers? Also, why no Twin-linked Psycannons like FW makes??? it would make perfect sense, being that their Gk's...

My hope is that the psy bolts will add +1 strength to the assault cannon in which case it will basically be a psycannon and I will be using FW's upgrade on the stormraven :D

[DarkLink]

just noticed, but on the american site, Gk's are gettin taken down, the Termys aren't order able now. it just builds my excitement seeing that. :D why can't they come out NOW?!? :D

This has been happening for a long time. GW's not producing any more Inquisition models (including Sisters), because they're not particularly good sellers and they're working on new plastics. So as stocks run out in various places, Inquisition models will start to disappear until the eventual new release.

[Hellstorm]

so i was just looking through the scan-dex when i saw how the astral aim power for the purgation squads was worded. it says that you may fire at any unit within range except if they are in a transport. what if my unit is in a transport, say a land raider? can i use the power and fire through the walls of the vehicle? that would be AWESOME! making a land raider open topped for firing out of it only. wow

what do you guys think?

[Lemt]

so i was just looking through the scan-dex when i saw how the astral aim power for the purgation squads was worded. it says that you may fire at any unit within range except if they are in a transport. what if my unit is in a transport, say a land raider? can i use the power and fire through the walls of the vehicle? that would be AWESOME! making a land raider open topped for firing out of it only. wow

what do you guys think?

I hate you.

BUT I'd be willing to do this against someone that really pissed me off.
"Oh hey, I'm going to shoot from inside this here Land Raider, 'k? Good luck shooting me back."

[Dagron XIII]

I hate you.

BUT I'd be willing to do this against someone that really pissed me off.
"Oh hey, I'm going to shoot from inside this here Land Raider, 'k? Good luck shooting me back."

LOL, that just made my day. I can think of a few people I wouldn't mind pulling that on....:D

[Hellstorm]

a fun idea i just had for this was 4 incinerators in a land raider redeemer pull up and drop enough flamer templates to roast what ever is in front of you. :D

[Astral Platypus]

I didn't see any rumors regarding the Grey Knight's armory. Does anybody have anything reliable on that?

[Hellstorm]

I didn't see any rumors regarding the Grey Knight's armory. Does anybody have anything reliable on that?

of all the stuff to leave out, why did they leave out the armory? that is one of the most important parts of a codex! (especially one with so many new toys :D)

[Gravidian]

I was told yesterday by a GW staffer they are expecting the Grey Knight "black boxes" on March 9th. :D

[Lemt]

I was told yesterday by a GW staffer they are expecting the Grey Knight "black boxes" on March 9th. :D

So if this is true (not that I doubt you, but you know how these things work =P)...
My Tyranid army will be finished this month (since I probably have a tournament next month). 2-3 months of miniature rest, and then GKs are released?

Hmmm, maybe I should wait for the errata to come out, like I did with Tyranids. My initial Tyranid list had Primes in Spores and the Doom of Malantai... but I waited for the errata before I started buying models. Good thing I did, too. &_&

[DarkLink]

Supposedly the new White Dwarf says that models are going on sale March 26th

Edit: nevermind, apparently the guy who posted that rumor can't read.

[Lemt]

Supposedly the new White Dwarf says that models are going on sale March 26th

Edit: nevermind, apparently the guy who posted that rumor can't read.

What DOES it say? I wanna know. :confused:

[DarkLink]

Oh, the guy thought it said "GKs on sale march 26th". Then he edited his post saying "oh, wait, the next edition of WD full of GK articles is on sale the 26th".

[DrLove42]

According to my store manager he heard them for sale somewhere in the "teens" in April...

[GrenAcid]

My spy said, 2 April first wave, and secon is on 16 of April.

[Lerra]

That sounds about right. I can't imagine GW would release the codex 2 weeks before the first models are released.

I heard GW/Forgeworld is doing a GK release event at Adepticon. Presumable they will bring piles of codices to sell to the masses. I just hope it doesn't delay the team tournament too much :P

[DrLove42]

All i know about that is Adepticon is the same weekend as the FW open day here in the UK.

Expecting IA11 to go up for sale (or at least order) and seeing all the pretties. Have to wait and see...just over a month now.

[Hellstorm]

My spy said, 2 April first wave, and secon is on 16 of April.

Freaking sweet. The army that I have been playing for 5 year now (my only army) releases on my birthday!
I love you GW.

[LittleBird]

I showed a certain PDF file to someone inside GW. He said that the PDF is ~5 months old, and the codex has been cleaned up a lot. The wording in many parts has been changed and made clearer, but it's more or less correct. He thought some of the point values may have been tweaked but he wasn't sure.

[DarkLink]

That's what I would expect. In fact, the timestamp on the scan is from 2010, so the document itself is older than that, so 5 months old makes sense. Plus, there are plenty of little mistakes scattered thoughout the codex, so I would hope that this is just a rough draft.

Hopefully they fix Crowe's stupid rule, and give GKs fearless or stubborn or something to make up for their poor leadership. I understand that they didn't want a dozen ld10 psykers runing around the board, that makes sense. But combining that with the loss of fearless means that GKs will start running more often than vanilla marines, which is retarded.

Would Chapter Tactics: Choose to pass or fail any Ld test be too much:D?

[DarkLink]

Here's the odds of scoring X # of rends with a BS4 psycannon with 4 shots, btw.

0 rends=81.9=9/11

1 rends=31.2%=~1/3

2 rends=5.9%=~1/17

3 rends=0.5%=~1/200

4 rends=.015%=~1/6550


Overall, you have about a 38% chance of getting at least one rend.



And these are the actual % odds, not the expected number of rends. I'm sure some idiot will pop up and yell "no, dude, you're wrong, the odds are (4 shots)*(2/3 hits)*(1/6 rends)=.444". That are the expected number of rends you'll get for taking 4 shots, not the odds of rolling a particular number of rends.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure those are the right numbers. The process is a little calculation intensive, and I'm too lazy to remember how to use any of the statistical software I have access to. I'll go back and check the numbers later if I feel like it.

Edit: double checked my numbers and corrected some errors. The odds of getting 2,3 or4 rends were dead on, but the odds of getting 1 rend was way low.

[Lemt]

Here's the odds of scoring X # of rends with a BS4 psycannon with 4 shots, btw.

0 rends=81.9=9/11

1 rends=11.6%=4/35

2 rends=5.9%=1/17

3 rends=0.5%=1/200

4 rends=.015%=1/6550



And these are the actual % odds, not the expected number of rends. I'm sure some idiot will pop up and yell "no, dude, you're wrong, the odds are (4 shots)*(2/3 hits)*(1/6 rends)=.444". That are the expected number of rends you'll get for taking 4 shots, not the odds of rolling a particular number of rends.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure those are the right numbers. The process is a little calculation intensive, and I'm too lazy to remember how to use any of the statistical software I have access to. I'll go back and check the numbers later if I feel like it.

No, dude, you're wrong, the odds are (4 shots)*(2/3 hits)*(1/6 rends)=.444 :p

[DarkLink]

I'd call you an idiot, but I already got that in my last post:p;)

Edit: Fixed the numbers. I only messed up the calcs of getting exactly one rend.

Incidentally, if you do the summation of the ith number of rends times the probability of getting i rends, you end up with the expected outcome, which indeed works out to 0.444. Good way of checking to be sure that my numbers are right, which they are to three significant figures.


Edit:
There's a nice little article on 3++ (http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/fallacy-in-40k-part-1-mathhammer.html#more)about mathhammer I just found. It's nice to see someone else who actually knows something about probability within the hobby.

[DrLove42]

My manager of GW said the black boxes were due in store "on Friday". And i asked today (thursday)...so either tomorrow (4th) or next friday (11th).

[WereWolf_nr]

Here is a link to the PDF that Little Bird is referring to. JSYK.

+++DELETED BY THE INQUISITION+++

Standard caveats apply and this is almost certainly a test version but it is a good read.

[DarkLink]

Don't post actual links here, same as you shouldn't link to an illegal download for an actual codex. More than a few GK rumor threads on various forums have been shut down for it. A dozen or so pages back in this thread, Duke posted this warning:


Just as a general warning, posts asking for copies of a not-yet-released-codex will be deleted... Accounts providing links to or trying to provide a link to said codices will see harsher actions.

Duke


Edit:
Incidentally, here's the rough odds of causing at least one glancing or penetrating hit on a LR, assuming a str 7 rending heavy 4 psycannon, based on the number of psycannons:
1 psycannon: 38%
2 psycannon: 62%
3 psycannon: 76%
4 psycannon: 85%
5 psycannon: 91%
6 psycannon: 94%

Since I think 2-3 squads with 2 psycannons each will be pretty common, it's nice to know that even without melta GKs will have something that can do at least some damage to LRs. These also happen to be the exact same odds of causing a penetrating hit on AV 13.

[Lerra]

This may be old news, but it's new to me. The Psilencer is a high rate-of-fire weapon, S5 with 12 or so shots.

[Hellstorm]

This may be old news, but it's new to me. The Psilencer is a high rate-of-fire weapon, S5 with 12 or so shots.

that sounds a little ridiculous. especially since it is free for some models (according to the scan-dex). i could see it as the stats for the gatling psilencer for the dreadknight.

[DarkLink]

Well, there were rumors about a str 5 heavy ~12 gattling gun for the Dreadknight. The Dreadknight also happens to have a heavy psilencer. Coincidence? I think not! I would expect normal psilencers to have a bit fewer shots, though.

[MuGGzy]

My manager of GW said the black boxes were due in store "on Friday". And i asked today (thursday)...so either tomorrow (4th) or next friday (11th).

How is it that they are this close to actually sending sample products out to stores and such but we haven't seen a SINGLE actual picture of anything worth drooling over... or obscured by "HERESY ONLINE" over the image (*facepalm*).

[DrLove42]

He did also say the advance order window was opening soon. So we should be seeing the goodness soon

[DarkLink]

Someone on Dakka said the UK stores are getting their black boxes on the 12th.

[Brass Scorpion]

Black Boxes go out the week after the previous major release is finished. Orcs & Goblins are released March 5 (tomorrow), so the Grey Knights Black Box will hit the store shortly.

[fuzzbuket]

cortez has been removed from the web store and a few people are saying that the black boxes will go out shortly

oh and the web store now stores the death cults as DH so if you go WH>elites>deathcults>click elites it takes you to the DH elites (i think?)

[Lerra]

My LGS was told to expect black boxes shipping on the 9th, arriving on the 11th.

[DrLove42]

Well with black box arrival dates starting to coalesce....not long till we start seeing models!

Anyone wanna make bets as to whats in it?

Plastic Terminators, Plastic Knights and a Dreadknight is my bets....

[fuzzbuket]

they donty noramly put all the new plastics in a box and black boxes are usualy small (wasnt the BA one just DC+SG+sanguinor??)

my bet is a hero plastic GKs and a dread knight?!

the dreadknight is a definate as it will probably be the centerpeice and plastic knights becase it gives more then 6 figs to display?

[DarkLink]

Dreadknight and Terminators, according to dakka.


And, as mentioned above, GW doesn't normally include everything for the new release in the black box. So don't whine that there aren't going to be any plastic dudes in power armor just because they aren't in the black box.