Rules question on Lash of Submission

[Lagrath]

I had something come up today in a game and come to think of it, I don't think we did it right.

There was a sorcerer with a unit of noise marines that got out of a rhino. The whole unit fired at one other unit of mine nearby. What he was trying to do was lash them into range, and then once they were clumped, drop the flame template that ignores armor on them from the noise marines.

My understanding of the rules is that the whole unit fires right away at the same exact time, and you resolve everything as is/was when you started your firing at that unit (before rolling on anything). Therefore you can't lash, move them, and then fire the rest of the unit at the enemy squad based on where it is after the lash "shooting" is over and done with and the enemy unit has been moved. In order to lash them into a clump and then hit them with a template in the new formation later, he would have to de-tach the sorceror so that the noise marines are firing as a later unit than the sorcerer so they hit the new, lashed clump instead of the original formation.

In order to drop a template on them/for measuring range on other things within the same unit firing at the same time, these would have to be resolved before the lash is resolved and the enemy unit moved, as these things are happening exactly simultaneously, not one after the other.

Can anyone else comment?

[SeattleDV8]

Your understanding is correct.
The template would be placed before the lash moved the unit.

[Bean]

I had something come up today in a game and come to think of it, I don't think we did it right.

There was a sorcerer with a unit of noise marines that got out of a rhino. The whole unit fired at one other unit of mine nearby. What he was trying to do was lash them into range, and then once they were clumped, drop the flame template that ignores armor on them from the noise marines.

My understanding of the rules is that the whole unit fires right away at the same exact time, and you resolve everything as is/was when you started your firing at that unit (before rolling on anything). Therefore you can't lash, move them, and then fire the rest of the unit at the enemy squad based on where it is after the lash "shooting" is over and done with and the enemy unit has been moved. In order to lash them into a clump and then hit them with a template in the new formation later, he would have to de-tach the sorceror so that the noise marines are firing as a later unit than the sorcerer so they hit the new, lashed clump instead of the original formation.

In order to drop a template on them/for measuring range on other things within the same unit firing at the same time, these would have to be resolved before the lash is resolved and the enemy unit moved, as these things are happening exactly simultaneously, not one after the other.

Can anyone else comment?

You are correct. You cannot use lash to move a unit into a clump for a flamer in the lashing sorcerer's own squad--the lash and the flamer happen simultaneously, determining what is hit by the flamer before the squad is moved by lash.

However, the sorcerer can disjoin himself from the squad on disembarking and use lash before the squad fires, which creates a very similar effect.

[Daemonette666]

I tend not to take Chaos Sorcerors unless I have to. They are vulnerable because of perils of the warp and the forced rerolls and low wounds. They are not fearless unless attached to a fearless unit, and as everyone says, they have to shoot or cast their spell at the same time as the unit they are attached to.

One option if using a sorceror is to give him wings or abike and when you move him keep him 3" away from the squad. Hopefully your opponent will not notice the extra inch, and target the unit thinking he is still attached, and you can then lash the enemy before you shoot them with the doom siren.

Alternately use a Daemon prince, tough, heaps of wounds and Eternal warrior. You can give them wings to make them able to jump about to target one unit after the other, and they can then join in the assault with your troops after everone has finished shooing at the enemy squad. Their only drawback is they can not joins units for cover, and they tend to stick out due to their size and known threat value.

One favourite tactic of mine which if I actually get to the enemy lines intact in my transports is to have the sorceror and his attached unit in one rhino, and another squad with a doom siren in another unit mounted in a rhino. The troops deploy from the rhinos, and you can even detach the sorceror at this point. Every shoots, and then then you hope you get them all. I tend to back them up with a berserker squad mounted in a landraider.

But you should have only suffered damage from the sonic blasters in the above battle you mentioned. If the template of the Doom Siren did hit anything, then add those wounds, and then move the squad with the lash. You could have been pulled closer to your opponents noise marine unit at this point, if you did not fail a morale test and run. Then they would have assaulted you and have fun with the left overs. But you were right in your assumption. Now you know better for the next time it occurs.

[Lagrath]

Thanks everyone for their replies. Now at my local GW store we just gotta figure out stacking wolf tail talismans and firing two inches through area terrain from balconies more than 2 inches in from the base of the terrain on the ground floor!

[DarkLink]

If you're shooting from a raised balcony, then you're not really shooting through 2" of terrain, you're shooting over 2" of terrain.

[Lagrath]

If you're considering each level contained inside a piece of area terrain to be a separate "set" of area terrain (like a ziggurat), then sure. However, the general idea is that (except for vehicles and MCs which use real LOS), you go by the base of the area terrain (ie the ground floor) and imagine it to be infinite height up until the top floor of the building/terrain piece, so that every piece of area terrain is a cube or a box (for square and rectangle shaped pieces, anyway). If you go through more than 2 inches inside this encompassing block (that starts at the very edge of the ground floor border) when measuring down diagonally down from another story or a level to shoot at infantry (or diagonally up or straight flat also in theory I guess), then you confer a cover save. Sure there is probably nothing in those 2 inches of open air blocking LOS- but if you count the whole base as area terrain, then you might be shooting through 2 inches of the terrain piece base on the ground floor outside the actual building with zero material blocking LOS, which would would confer an area terrain cover save despite the total lack of actual obstruction...you're shooting through open air but since it's through more than 2 inches inside the "block"/cube/whatever, it's a save.

The same principle is just applied to all of the floors inside the area terrain block. In order for the area terrain rules NOT to function like this, each level of elevation inside an area terrain piece would have to count as its own "block" separate from the area terrain piece of ground floor it's situated on (in which case the edge of the area terrain for say floor 2 is just the balconies and edges of the floor or roof if it's a 2-story building). However, nothing in the rules indicates that you judge area terrain in this manner. The idea is that area terrain (for non-MCs and vehicles) is just representational, so if you're shooting through the multi-level imaginary block of terrain you're inside, even if you're on the balcony and there's nothing blocking you as you're shooting diagonally down through terrain from a balcony or a roof, you could imagine street lamps, ruined walls, statues, etc. being stuff that blocks a shot in that diagonal line, even though that stuff may or may not be actually there. Look at the line on page 83 (which is there for movement, something totally different)...just using that line as an example for what I'm talking about, imagine those 9 diagonal inches giving cover if you're shooting from the edge of the 2nd floor to the ground floor where the jetbike starts, even though there's nothing PHYSICALLY on the ground floor that blocks LOS...you're still shooting diagonally through more then 2 inches of "area terrain" inside your imaginary block.

Our store GW manager (who is pretty solid on the rules unlike some managers) confirmed that this is how it's supposed to work. This of course doesn't apply to ground floors without a base, but then if you're shooting on the 4th floor you still count everything from the edge of the second as your block of area terrain from which you're shooting since the 2nd floor and up counts as area terrain.

[Azrell]

If you're considering each level contained inside a piece of area terrain to be a separate "set" of area terrain (like a ziggurat), then sure. However, the general idea is that (except for vehicles and MCs which use real LOS), you go by the base of the area terrain (ie the ground floor) and imagine it to be infinite height up until the top floor of the building/terrain piece, so that every piece of area terrain is a cube or a box (for square and rectangle shaped pieces, anyway). If you go through more than 2 inches inside this encompassing block (that starts at the very edge of the ground floor border) when measuring down diagonally down from another story or a level to shoot at infantry (or diagonally up or straight flat also in theory I guess), then you confer a cover save. Sure there is probably nothing in those 2 inches of open air blocking LOS- but if you count the whole base as area terrain, then you might be shooting through 2 inches of the terrain piece base on the ground floor outside the actual building with zero material blocking LOS, which would would confer an area terrain cover save despite the total lack of actual obstruction...you're shooting through open air but since it's through more than 2 inches inside the "block"/cube/whatever, it's a save.

The same principle is just applied to all of the floors inside the area terrain block. In order for the area terrain rules NOT to function like this, each level of elevation inside an area terrain piece would have to count as its own "block" separate from the area terrain piece of ground floor it's situated on (in which case the edge of the area terrain for say floor 2 is just the balconies and edges of the floor or roof if it's a 2-story building). However, nothing in the rules indicates that you judge area terrain in this manner. The idea is that area terrain (for non-MCs and vehicles) is just representational, so if you're shooting through the multi-level imaginary block of terrain you're inside, even if you're on the balcony and there's nothing blocking you as you're shooting diagonally down through terrain from a balcony or a roof, you could imagine street lamps, ruined walls, statues, etc. being stuff that blocks a shot in that diagonal line, even though that stuff may or may not be actually there. Look at the line on page 83 (which is there for movement, something totally different)...just using that line as an example for what I'm talking about, imagine those 9 diagonal inches giving cover if you're shooting from the edge of the 2nd floor to the ground floor where the jetbike starts, even though there's nothing PHYSICALLY on the ground floor that blocks LOS...you're still shooting diagonally through more then 2 inches of "area terrain" inside your imaginary block.

Our store GW manager (who is pretty solid on the rules unlike some managers) confirmed that this is how it's supposed to work. This of course doesn't apply to ground floors without a base, but then if you're shooting on the 4th floor you still count everything from the edge of the second as your block of area terrain from which you're shooting since the 2nd floor and up counts as area terrain.

Your GW manager is wrong. If that were the case blast templates would hit other floors when they scatter. Every level is essentially a separate piece of area terrain. He should prob read the 5th ed codex, instead of using rules from 4th. You can shoot from a second story without giving a cover save.

[dannyat2460]

Your GW manager is wrong. If that were the case blast templates would hit other floors when they scatter. Every level is essentially a separate piece of area terrain. He should prob read the 5th ed codex, instead of using rules from 4th. You can shoot from a second story without giving a cover save.

Agreed The GW manager in that respect is incorect and that ruling is 3rd/4th Edition.

The area terain is is only as high as it is modeled e.g. trees. If theres nothing as high as your balcony there shouldnt be any obstruction to your fire line (remembering true line of sight), if your builldings do have a base this represents where rubble form the building has fallen and provided enough cover for troops to hide behind this fallen detritus however if this detritus is not modeled to be as high if not higher than the balcony then there shooting through 2" is ignored for anything above the ground floor

[Daemonette666]

Thanks everyone for their replies. Now at my local GW store we just gotta figure out stacking wolf tail talismans and firing two inches through area terrain from balconies more than 2 inches in from the base of the terrain on the ground floor!
Second unresolved problem you have is easy - the shots from the models who are more than 2" from the edge of cover give the target unit a 4+ cover save. If you are on a higher level say a balconey and you are on the edge of the balconey, the the target unit does not get the save, as the detrious and rubble surrounding the building does not rise that high, unless the store owner wants to model the building so the rubble is as high as the highest floor. You measure from the edge of the building for the upper levels, and the edge of the area terrain on the ground floor.

The problem regarding stacking and the effects of wolf tail talismans. Only one attempt can be made to nullify a psychic attack. It is useless therefore to have 2 or 3 models in a unit with wolf tail talismans. The unit only gets one 5+ save against the psychic attack. Similarly if the attack covers more than one unit - i.e. template, only one attempt is made to nullify the effects of the attack. If you were able to nullify the effect of psychic attacks for each talisman.

As an example targetting a unit of Bloodhounds of Khorne with psychic powers would be useless. This is because blessings of the blood god allow THE DAEMON who has it a 2+ save against psychic attacks or force weapons. Every Bloodhound has the Blessing of the Blood God, so a unit of 20 would get 20 x 2+ saves to try and nullify the attack.

Also refer to the psychic hood for another example. This one specifically states that only one attempt may be made to cancel the effects of a psychic attack.

Remember GW does make mistakes - hence the FAQs and Errata. Often they miss the odd rule or assume you would understand it is supposed to be in the used in the way they meant it to be used , not in the way it sounds like it should be used. We probably should all remember the apology they printed when the last lot of FAQs went out. See below:

"Although we strive to ensure that our books are perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in. In addition, we occasionally print new versions of our rules, that require amendments to be made in older versions of our army books. When such issues arise we feel that it is important to deal with them as promptly as we can, and we therefore produce regular updates for all of our army books. When changes are made, the version number will be updated."

Maybe they have not cought up on correcting this little error, but you could always email your countries head office for a confirmaton.