Flamers and Flyers

[DrWobbles]

say an infantry unit is parked near a valkyrie or stormraven or any vehicle with one of those new 'flyer' stands. an enemy unit targets the vehicle with a flamer while simultaneously coating the infantry unit in purifying flame.

is this legal? or is the vehicle too high up to hit the infantry due to the height of its base?

Arguement #1: anything under the template from a bird's eye view would get hit.

Arguement #2: the template doesn't have the volume to cover both

i would side with #1 because the rules only describe buildings as having more than one level or plane. i can't find a description or rule set for varying model heights.

A clear concise answer would be greatly appreciated.

[Gir]

say an infantry unit is parked near a valkyrie or stormraven or any vehicle with one of those new 'flyer' stands. an enemy unit targets the vehicle with a flamer while simultaneously coating the infantry unit in purifying flame.

is this legal? or is the vehicle too high up to hit the infantry due to the height of its base?

Arguement #1: anything under the template from a bird's eye view would get hit.

Arguement #2: the template doesn't have the volume to cover both

i would side with #1 because the rules only describe buildings as having more than one level or plane. i can't find a description or rule set for varying model heights.

A clear concise answer would be greatly appreciated.

Treat the valkyire and stormraven exactally as you would treat any other skimmer.

[DrLove42]

Everyone playsa little different

Some count the chassis of the flier (say the bodywork in a Valk).
Some count the whole model (wings, tail boom etc)
Some count just the base.

Personally i go for the first one. And if the template touches the model it hits. Its not a flier in a standard game, its a skimmer, just like landspeeders, eldar falcons, jetbikes, deffkoptas etc etc. The fact its on a big stand doesn't protect it...it just makes it more vulnerable as it gets less cover saves in the world.

So birdseye view...hit everything. Same as you can use a flamer template to hit multiple squads if lined up properly...

[Sandman2663]

The Template has got to be the best weapon in the game. They ignore Cover and auto hit...I love it!
I use around 8-12+ Templates in a game I play whether it is MEQ or IG.

That being said, I have used the Template on Vehicles/Infantry many times and quite effectively.
When used against a vehicle like a Rhino, Razorback, Chimera, Truck, etc. and there is Infantry in close proximity to the vehicle you have two options.

You have to maximize the Template on the target unit, meaning you must cover as much of the target model as possible before covering a proximity unit. BRB pg 29: 'Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without also touching a friendly model.'

1- Target the Vehicle and maybe hit the Infantry. You could position your units close to the target to try and close the lane of fire but it is difficult.

2- Target the Infantry next to the Vehicle and hit the Vehicle in the process. Works best against
Infantry on the otherside of a vehicle thinking they get cover...nope, sure don't.

I use option 2 more than 1 because it is easier to maximize on Infantry than a Vehicle. If you positioned your unit around the Vehicle you could also be in Assault range after fire and still multi-assault.

As for the Vehicle Skimmer...the Hull is the part of the model to be covered by the Template. BRB pg 71. 'The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer,...'

[somerandomdude]

You're right that only ruins have multiple levels, but this isn't an issue of multiple levels. Weapons ranges (including templates) are measured from the hull of the vehicle, which for those vehicles is the large hunk of plastic suspended above the table.

When you place the template, you have to place it so that it touches the base of the model firing it (the only exception is with levels in ruins). If you can place the template so that it physically touches the firer AND covers a portion of the vehicle's hull, then you can affect the vehicle. Otherwise, the vehicle is not hit.

Think of it this way, if a Rhino is about 8" away (the template is 8" long) but on top of a hill, changing the angle of the template, it wouldn't be able to touch the hull. The game is played in 3 dimensions. 99% of the time it doesn't matter for measure weapon ranges, but that doesn't mean it never does.

Also keep in mind what Sandman said about covering as many models as possible, because that could make it impossible to cover both.

[Tynskel]

don't forget weapons on vehicles, they fire from the physical mounting, not the model base. Example, a Blood Angels furioso fires both its melta and hv flamer--- the flamer is measured from the arm.

[Cheeseburger!]

What DrWobbles was trying to do one day was using one unit to shoot a melta gun at my valkyrie while simultaneously burning the squad that recently disembarked. Effectively shooting at two different units, even though the flame template was no where near the hull of the valkyrie. I felt that couldn't be right so I turned to the rulebook and found my answer on page 71 under measuring distances, "As for normal vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting."

This ruling shows that the template must be pointed towards the vehicle, not the base. And I sujjest, to determine the volume of the flame template, you simply turn the template vertical to see if it would touch other models for a 3D perspective.

No cheaty targeting allowed!

[isotope99]

This ruling shows that the template must be pointed towards the vehicle, not the base. And I sujjest, to determine the volume of the flame template, you simply turn the template vertical to see if it would touch other models for a 3D perspective.

No cheaty targeting allowed!

This seems like a reasonable compromise.

My only current bugbear is the restrictions these types of rules place on modelling. If I model a vehicle (say the new Dark Eldar razorwing) low like an eldar skimmer(which I have), I'm cheating by looking for extra cover saves, if I model it high, I'm cheating by trying to outrange other weapons, like flamers and meltas. Can't win :(. It would be easier if GW would just put in an FAQ that flyers (list what this applies to) should be based 4" off the ground or something.

Mathhammer challenge: How tall would a valkyrie base need to be to make them immune to infantry based melta guns :confused:. Answers on a digital postcard

[DrLove42]

What DrWobbles was trying to do one day was using one unit to shoot a melta gun at my valkyrie while simultaneously burning the squad that recently disembarked. Effectively shooting at two different units, even though the flame template was no where near the hull of the valkyrie. I felt that couldn't be right so I turned to the rulebook and found my answer on page 71 under measuring distances, "As for normal vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting."

This ruling shows that the template must be pointed towards the vehicle, not the base. And I sujjest, to determine the volume of the flame template, you simply turn the template vertical to see if it would touch other models for a 3D perspective.

No cheaty targeting allowed!

In your example there the flamer would miss the infantry squad (even if it covered them) unless it touched the tank. it it touches the tank the squad are hit as well

And your wrong about measuring to the model...its from a top down view, not a 3d viewmetric....or else I could stick a valk on a flying base 3 feet high and be out of range of all your weapons, cos they have to emasure to the hull (:P). it measures to the hull from a top down view...

[TSINI]

In your example there the flamer would miss the infantry squad (even if it covered them) unless it touched the tank. it it touches the tank the squad are hit as well

And your wrong about measuring to the model...its from a top down view, not a 3d viewmetric....or else I could stick a valk on a flying base 3 feet high and be out of range of all your weapons, cos they have to emasure to the hull (:P). it measures to the hull from a top down view...

This is true, you don't ever have to angle the flamer template up or down, because it effectively acts like a orbital flamer shaped laser beam from the heavens capturing everything underneath it (apart from models on other levels of a building/ruin)

so if you can place the flamer over the infantry squad's head, and under/over the valkyrie hull then both are hit.

[Cheeseburger!]

I know the rules say everything underneath the template is hit, but there is a contradiction in plain view when it says you put the template at the base of the model firing it. Obviously nothing will be under the template when it is lying flat on the ground. In the previous example with a rhino on the hill you have to angle the template. There is nothing in the rulebook that says you are not supposed to aim the template at the target and play in two dimensions. It is a three dimensional game.

As for the 3 foot high flying stand, well that is just ridiculous. It comes with a perfectly viable stand. Alternating it would be bad form, just like targeting two different units...

[MasterSlowPoke]

The narrow end of the flamer template has to touch the base of the firing model. Page 29. This can be interpreted two ways:

A: The template has to physically touch the base of the firing model. This is rather awkward, and in cases where a model is shooting at a nearby unit (or an especially tall unit), the template weapon is held at a strange angle and is less effective. No one plays this way.

B. Holding the template above the model in a birds eye view, the narrow end much touch the firing model. We all know how this works.

Everyone plays by method B. It's not fair to normally play by method B, and then require method A when firing against your Valk/Stormraven/Trygon/whatever.

In the outside chance that your group actually plays by method A, then it likewise wouldn't be fair to switch to method B in situations where it benefits you.

[Cheeseburger!]

My point is that the flame template shouldn't be infinitely tall. It should be as tall as it is wide.

[Xas]

And your wrong about measuring to the model...its from a top down view, not a 3d viewmetric....or else I could stick a valk on a flying base 3 feet high and be out of range of all your weapons, cos they have to emasure to the hull (:P). it measures to the hull from a top down view...

source, page, refering paragraph?

ya know in a 3-dimensional world you must specifically state if something is measured in any other way.

it is really fun when people try to use rapid fire weapons/meltaguns on a voidraven with nightfields (chassi of eldar phoenix, mounted on valk base).

[MasterSlowPoke]

My point is that the flame template shouldn't be infinitely tall. It should be as tall as it is wide.

And you're basing that on?

[Tynskel]

well, you could site the ruins rules.

[MasterSlowPoke]

The flyer in question isn't in a ruin, those rules are irrelevant.

[DrLove42]

The ruins rule appliues because the floor and roof stops the "flames" changing levels.

By the same rules if i use a barrage weapon (like a Artilllery battery) are you saying that blast shouldn't be infintly tall? If it hits a valk and the guys standing next to it are you suggesting that doesn't hit both?

[Cheeseburger!]

That is how I play. If the template is turned vertical and it would touch other units then they are hit. But if it scatters off the valkyrie then it would land on the ground.

There is no where in the rulebook that says flame/blast templates are infinetly tall. And it also doesn't say anything about turning tempates on their side, but in the absence of these rules I feel that this is by far the most logical solution.

[DrLove42]

That is a really unusual way to play...but each to their own I guess!

[Cheeseburger!]

I agree each to their own, but I wish GW would faq this issue. Giant collumns of doom that fall from the heavens wasnt what I had in mind when a guardsmen is holding a flamer or grenade launcher.

[DrLove42]

Was never a problem till the Valk and now the storm raven on big flying stands.

I would say i know more people to play it my way, but yeah each to their own...

Gets more confusing when the rules for skimmers say ignore the base, and only the model itself...

[thecactusman17]

say an infantry unit is parked near a valkyrie or stormraven or any vehicle with one of those new 'flyer' stands. an enemy unit targets the vehicle with a flamer while simultaneously coating the infantry unit in purifying flame.

is this legal? or is the vehicle too high up to hit the infantry due to the height of its base?

Arguement #1: anything under the template from a bird's eye view would get hit.

Arguement #2: the template doesn't have the volume to cover both

i would side with #1 because the rules only describe buildings as having more than one level or plane. i can't find a description or rule set for varying model heights.

A clear concise answer would be greatly appreciated.

Skimmers, like all other standard Warhammer models, are models that are considered to be at the level of their base in all ways except LOS. This is done to prevent certain kinds of rules abuses. A model with its base on the ground is considered to be on that level, and subject to any template attacks at that level, unless it has the Flyer special rule.

[Cheeseburger!]

Do you have a reference? Or are you just assuming that's the way it is to be played?

[Porty1119]

I'm of the belief that it seems logical to assume the foamed template is *roughly* as wide as it is tall. If you fire a flamethrower at a squad of enemy infantry, it's going to form a rough cone, not a massive column of fire that also hits a nearby VTOL.

[DrLove42]

Do you have a reference? Or are you just assuming that's the way it is to be played?

I dojn't think theres a direct reference, but its implied a little. Skimmers (even valks) block LOS (I think). And the fact that footsloggers can assault the valk, without suddenly being 50 feet tall...

[Gir]

I'm of the belief that it seems logical to assume the foamed template is *roughly* as wide as it is tall. If you fire a flamethrower at a squad of enemy infantry, it's going to form a rough cone, not a massive column of fire that also hits a nearby VTOL.

Except I'm pretty sure the description of flamers involve a stream of burning liquid. I don't find it hard to believe that if you shot something above the ground, gravity would make the liquid fall on everything below it.

Also, flamers are infinatly high, they can't hit flyers, after all, just skimmers which hover a few meters above the ground.

[Tynskel]

Except I'm pretty sure the description of flamers involve a stream of burning liquid. I don't find it hard to believe that if you shot something above the ground, gravity would make the liquid fall on everything below it.

Also, flamers are infinatly high, they can't hit flyers, after all, just skimmers which hover a few meters above the ground.

actually the fire generally doesn't all 'fall to the ground' in the area that is fired at. It has a relatively high velocity, and you you watch an flamer throwers, it goes quite a distance before dropping off. You can imagine that if you arc your fire, you'll miss things inbetween. Kinda like the hell hound.

[Gir]

actually the fire generally doesn't all 'fall to the ground' in the area that is fired at. It has a relatively high velocity, and you you watch an flamer throwers, it goes quite a distance before dropping off. You can imagine that if you arc your fire, you'll miss things inbetween. Kinda like the hell hound.

This a good point.

I guess the other arguement is that the game is an abstraction. I think this is a key point a lot of people miss.

[Cheeseburger!]

Thats a good point about infantry assaulting valks. I can't wait for the "summer of fliers". Please fix my headache.

[Gir]

Thats a good point about infantry assaulting valks. I can't wait for the "summer of fliers". Please fix my headache.

What headache? The Stormraven and Valkyrie are SKIMMERS. there height on the base doesn't matter, as they are treated as being on the building level their base is. Therefore, if the base is on the ground, and the template goes 'under' it's hull, it's hit.

Seriously, where is the difficulty with this?

[Cherub]

What headache? The Stormraven and Valkyrie are SKIMMERS. there height on the base doesn't matter, as they are treated as being on the building level their base is. Therefore, if the base is on the ground, and the template goes 'under' it's hull, it's hit.

Seriously, where is the difficulty with this?

The difficulty is that people think skimmer and flyers are the same thing and try to get rules for them both when they are two seperate things. So by the rules books here are the differences.

Regular 40k- valks, stormravens etc are SKIMMERS and can be hit by flamers and other template weapons as per normal, using the shooting at skimmers rules.

In APOC - valks, stormravens are SOMETIMES flyers depending on what datasheet you go off ( the newest says in apoc count as flyers) and in that cause when in FLYER mode can not be hit my template weapons and when in SKIMMER/VTOL mode can.

All in all its pretty easy, just have to remember what game your playing so you know what rule book to go to ;)

[Cheeseburger!]

Apoc rules have nothing to do with the confusion. The complication of the 'flier' base presents the problem.

"there height on the base doesn't matter, as they are treated as being on the building level their base is."

Where does it say that? I do know that it says distances are measured to and from the skimmer's hull on page 71 in the rule book. And it says against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible on page 29.

[thecactusman17]

"Flier base" is something you keep saying but it means diddly squat next to the "unit type: skimmer" in the vehicle profile.

Your "flyer base" model is a skimmer in normal games of 40k. In those games, skimmers are considered to be targeted at the vehicles hull. The hull may be high in the air or low (and measuring to or from it is done TO THE HULL), but it is ALWAYS considered to be at the same level as the base. Template weapons and blast weapons target the model at building or terrain level, not at weird angles or anything else. They affect alll models encompassed by that template on that level. If you have a problem with this, my first suggestion is to stop letting your incredibly under-armored vehicles get within flamer distance and take out that artillery. My second suggestion is to only play friendly games, because you would get laughed out of most stores I've ever played at trying to argue against this.

The game is intentionally abstract in some areas to facilitate gameplay. This is one of them. Stop trying to weasel your way out of something that shouldn't even affect you 99% of the time (seriously, what are you getting hit by, Hellstorm templates? You're armor 10 minimum for Chrissakes and the most powerful flamer templates are S6).

[Cheeseburger!]

Now I have to repeat myself because you didn't read the original problem. It's not the valkyrie i'm worried about getting hit by the template, it's the squad that just disembarked from it that is being hit as well. My opponent's squad had a melta and a heavy flamer. Shot the Valk with the melta then flamed the disembarked squad, effectively targeting two different units in one shooting phase. That's why I am arguing my point because that is one giant flame that is hitting my units.

[Cheeseburger!]

And once again there is no reference! Where does it talk about targeting on the same level b.s.?

[Cheeseburger!]

Okay. I made some awesomely artistic diagrams for you guys and gals so you can hopefully understand my argument. And I know the geometry isn't perfect. There are two major points I want deal with concerning flame templates versus skimmers. One is how to place the template and the other is the volume of the template.

In Box 1 we have a bad guy equipped with a melta gun that is in range of a valkyrie and good guy #1. He can target one or the other and must measure to the hull of the vehicle if targeting the valk since skimmer's bases are ignored.

In Box 2 there is a similar situation where there is good guy #2 taking position on a hill or mountain. Note that this is NOT a ruin. So those rules will not apply in this scenario.

In Box 3 things start to get complicated due to a bad guy squad member equipped with a flamer. As I see it, if he targets the valk then he must 'aim' the template towards the valkyrie in order to cover as much of the vehicle as possible. Since flame templates are about 8" long and the hull of the valk is 10 " away it would effectively be out of range and do no damage. Others argue you just lay the template flat and it acts like a column of fire hitting everything from good guy #1 to all the way to outer space and beyond. I've never seen a real flamethrower do that...

In Box 4 it's a similar situation. I want to know if the people arguing against me play it where good guy #1 and #2 get hit if they are within 8" in a two dimensional point of view. That seems silly to think two different units get hit even though they are separated by quite a distance in a three dimensional view.

In Boxes 5 and 6 I am showing the volume of the template by turning it on its side. I know this is not in the rulebook but it only covers the rules if you are always playing on a flat surface, never a dynamic battlefield. I feel that the most logical solution to this hole in the rulebook is to play the template as tall as it is wide. So in Boxes 5 and 6 the only model that would get hit is good guy #1 if you targeted him.

Box 7 shows the valk a little closer, just enough to get hit by the template but it doesn’t have the volume to hit good guy #1.

Box 8 shows the way most of you apparently play. Everything from ground level units, skimmers up in the air, and units way up in towers get hit if they are within 8 inches. That is lame.

Involving ruins into the scenario changes things because there are specific rules. Did you know skimmers can hit any level with a flamer regardless of where their base is sitting? Food for thought…

If you read all of this I thank you. If you understand any of this I applaud you. Hopefully my efforts show the logic in what I think is the correct way to play the game. If I failed then I hope you enjoyed my drawings.

[Gir]

Now I have to repeat myself because you didn't read the original problem. It's not the valkyrie i'm worried about getting hit by the template, it's the squad that just disembarked from it that is being hit as well. My opponent's squad had a melta and a heavy flamer. Shot the Valk with the melta then flamed the disembarked squad, effectively targeting two different units in one shooting phase. That's why I am arguing my point because that is one giant flame that is hitting my units.

If you replaced the Valkyrie with a devilfish or Wave serpant, what you say would happen in this same circumstance? (i.e: squad has disembarked from the transport, meltagun hits the transport, then the flamer is placed to hit the transport and also hits some of the disembarked squad).

The answer to this question is the same answer as the one to your question.

[Gir]

That seems silly to think two different units get hit even though they are separated by quite a distance in a three dimensional view.

3 dimensional view is abstracted, 2 demensional view isn't. See description of skimmers on page 65 of the rulebook (They hover a few meters above the ground, or abour the height of a space marine.)

[Cheeseburger!]

A few meters could mean 3 to 5 meters which is about 10 to 16 feet rounding. I thought space marines were 8 feet tall. And I bet when you flame a devilfish you hit the hull with the template when its on the base provided. Not a swing and a miss with the valkyrie. And how the hell is 3 dimensional abstract and 2D not??? We arent playing risk here. Warhammer is a 3D game. There is a problem I stumbled on and I am trying to find the best solution. You are just making up rules and saying I am wrong. reference these rules and I will shut up.

[Gir]

A few meters could mean 3 to 5 meters which is about 10 to 16 feet rounding. I thought space marines were 8 feet tall. And I bet when you flame a devilfish you hit the hull with the template when its on the base provided. Not a swing and a miss with the valkyrie. And how the hell is 3 dimensional abstract and 2D not??? We arent playing risk here. Warhammer is a 3D game. There is a problem I stumbled on and I am trying to find the best solution. You are just making up rules and saying I am wrong. reference these rules and I will shut up.

There's no rules saying I'm wrong either.

Warhammer is primarly a 2D game with an abstract 3rd dimension. The height of model on the stand is completely meaningless when it comes to template weapons. You simally place the template, if the template covers where the skimmer is (assuming the bases are on the same level), they all get hit.

But I have a hyperthetical for you: if someone with a flamer is standing on a hill that's the same height as a valkyrie, and they shot it with a flamer, would the flamer hit the guys underneath the valkyire?

[Paintraina]

So basically you are asking two different questions.

The first is essentially "Can a firing unit fire template weapons at a unit that is out of range of the template in order to hit intervening units?" The answer to this is Yes. Those guardsmen are cooked regardless of where that valk is. Realize that this leads to some interesting stuff. For instance, You can use the IG order "Bring it Down" on a unit with flamers. They take aim and fire at a Tank which is out of range, but there is an intervening unit of infantry. They still count as twinlinked against this infantry unit. Remember that the limiting factor is that you cant assault afterward. Your target was the tank.

The second question is "Are Template weapons able to effect Tanks if the template only has range to the "Shadow" of the tank, and not the physical hull" Looking at the relevant sections of the BRB doesn't really answer this definitively. I am inclined to say that the skimmer is hit even if the template can only reach its shadow, due to the diagram on pg 85 in the BRB. This picture gives us some insight on how to place templates, and is evidence for the idea that templates are infinitely high.

[thecactusman17]

As to your second question RE: intervening models and flamers, my gaming group came to this decision because we have so many players who rely on template weapons: Said weapons can be fired even if they won't hit the intended target, however they must be fired directly at the closest part of the target unit, or positioned to cover as much of the target as possible. So if you target a rhino with a disembarked squad in front of it, for example, then the flamer must cover as much of the rhino as possible or be pointed directly at the nearest point. Only then are intervening models counted for purposes of wounds. If you are targeting an enemy squad, then the flamer must hit as many members of the target squad as possible before intervening wounds are worked out. This prevents the "stand in back, shoot at enemy unit to your rear" abuse that could be caused by this ruling.

As for Valks/etc., the reason why they have to be counted as ground level is very straightforward: if they weren't, your opponent could declare "my valk/Raider/Devilfish/Wave Serpent is one level higher than my troops, your Vindicator/Leman Russ/small blast weapon will miss everything around it if it doesn't connect." This may technically be true from a modeling perspective, but it would be disastrous for gameplay purposes. Templates of any type, as shown in multiple sections of the 5th ed. rule book, are intended to be placed horizontally. They hit everything on the same terrain level, as shown in multiple sections of the BRB. You can choose to fire at different levels when desired, but you are always intended to fire with the template in a horizontal position.

[Cheeseburger!]

To answer your question Gir I would turn the template on its side and see if the unit next to the valk would get hit, at least thats how i prefer to play it.

I appreciate the feedback guys. I guess I'm outnumbered on this one. Giant flames from orbit will be landing on a table near you!

I still think I have a valid point though...

[Gir]

I appreciate the feedback guys. I guess I'm outnumbered on this one. Giant flames from orbit will be landing on a table near you!

I still think I have a valid point though...

You have a valid point with your way of thinking, but you're ignoring the concept of adstraction (How do your guys get out of the valkyrie if it's so high up?).

[MasterSlowPoke]

So basically you are asking two different questions.

The first is essentially "Can a firing unit fire template weapons at a unit that is out of range of the template in order to hit intervening units?" The answer to this is Yes.

This is wrong. If a weapon is out of range of the target it automatically misses everything.

[Paintraina]

prove it. The range section in the BRB says to refer to the Template section for how template weapons work. The template weapons rules targeting restrictions only state that you have to cover as many enemies in the target unit (or as much of the vehicle) as possible. That number of enemies in the target unit may be zero, but the flamer still fires.

[MasterSlowPoke]

Page 17, Check Range:


Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically – his shots simply do not reach.

Nothing on the Template section on page 29 overrides this. Your move.

[Paintraina]

The section you quoted goes on to say that template weapons don't work this way and have their own rules described in the template section.

Edit: ahh sorry, The section I am referring to is pg 27. Its easy to miss and is probably where the confusion stems from.

[MasterSlowPoke]

The Template rules tell you to use those rules instead of Rolling to Hit, step 3 of the Shooting Sequence. It makes no mention of step 2, Check Range, so you still use the standard rules for range checking.

[Paintraina]

I get what you are saying but consider the following two situations:

If you use JoTWW which is a psychic shooting attack and select a target (as you must do according to the FAQ) that is outside of 24", does the power automatically misses intervening models?

If I have another model with a pistol in the squad which is firing their flamers, and the pistol is in range to the tank or whatever, but the flamers are not, can I fire the flamers at an intervening squad?

[MasterSlowPoke]

The target of Jaws is the first model it hits, so the situation you describe doesn't really work. If you did have to nominate a target, then yes, if the target was out of range then no closer models would be hit.

For the second situation, then yes, the Flamer misses. It's the only way a Template weapon can miss, I think.

[Paintraina]

I still disagree because the method outlined for checking ranges with weapons doesn't tell you how to do it for template weapons (or even Blast weapons). So we must use the special description of blast and template weapons. furthermore, even if we were to use the logical way of testing a template range and put the template down, the template is already in place and hitting models.

You bring up good points, and if someone tries to do this to me again in a tournament setting, I will probably use your arguments to appeal a judge; but at this point I don't think you or I (who are the only people still reading this) will convince the other person.

[Cheeseburger!]

You have a valid point with your way of thinking, but you're ignoring the concept of adstraction (How do your guys get out of the valkyrie if it's so high up?).

I am pretty sure they have invented rope by the 41st millenium.

[MasterSlowPoke]

You bring up good points, and if someone tries to do this to me again in a tournament setting, I will probably use your arguments to appeal a judge; but at this point I don't think you or I (who are the only people still reading this) will convince the other person.

You... are the person I'm trying to convince.

[Gir]

I am pretty sure they have invented rope by the 41st millenium.

So if you shot it with a flamer the ropes would burn and then the untis would not be able to embark or disembark.