"Missing" Legions - Heresy Spoilers

[cwsanger]

I am currently reading "The First Heretic" (yes I know that I am a little behind) and I saw where it mentions the 2 missing legions 2 and 11. Now it gave different reasons for each of these chapters as to why they are missing. It also mentions that shortly after the actions taken against these 2 legions the Ultramarines legion increased in size.

Now outside the Heresy series I have not read much 40K, but to me this seems like the most that we know of these 2 legions. Am I correct in this or where else can I go to find out more about these legions?

Thanks.

[jorz192]

It's a pretty easy question to answer.

You read Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, Nemesis, and the Dark King and Lightning Tower audio books.

I don't know maybe you have already read or listened to some of the titles.

[Da'Ma55]

For years there was literally zero information as to who the primarchs were or what happened to their legions.

Originally the excuse was GW had two blanks so people had room to invent their own primarchs/chapters/stories.

[wittdooley]

It certainly seems like one of them, based on Prospero Burns, was executed by the VI Legion.

[Vaddok Sek]

It certainly seems like one of them, based on Prospero Burns, was executed by the VI Legion.

True, they are the executioners after all, in Lightning Tower Dorn ponders the two empty plynths in an garden where there are statues of the primarchs and wonders if thier "sepparate tragedies had been to serve as a warning". Whatever happened to them the books Mechanicum and First Heretic say that those who do know swore oaths never to speak of it.

[gwensdad]

My .02 theory (probably less with current exchange rates)

Legions 2 and 11 left Terra on the crusade (as did the other legions) and eventually found their primarchs. For reasons unknown those 2 primarchs "denied" The Emperor and stood against him. A small part of their legions stood with their primarch and they and the Primarch were punished by the 6th legion while the Astartes that were part of those legions but stayed loyal were "found a new home" (i.e. The Ultramarines) and records of legions 2 and 11 destroyed.

This is different from what happens later with Horus in that by the time of The Heresy, legions were 99.9% loyal to whatever the will of their primarch was, while during the search the Astartes from Terra were loyal only to The Emperor.

Well anyway, that was my theory-YMMV.

[Vaddok Sek]

Just curiou,s but if the Ultramarines took in the remains of one of the fallen legions then one has to the wonder how many brothers of the of the present Ultramarines and Ultramarine successor chapters there are who don't actually carry Guilliman's gene seed.

[Fantomex]

Hmm, I'd wager that the two missing primarchs weren't instantly opposed to the Emperor.

If we think about it, the other primarchs all choose not to speak of it, be it an order or too uncomfortable to talk about.

I'd have assumed one of them fell prey to Chaos, but rather than the insidious brainwashing thing Lorgar was subject to, I'd reckon something more like Fulgrims possession, only a lot faster rather than over a length of time being whittled away at.

Wasn't there a certain name given for each of the missing primarchs in The First Heretic?
Something like The Tragic and The Fallen, or another equally teasing nom de plume?:confused:

[Lane]

I tend to believe the explanation proposed many years ago on the 40h mailing list.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By: howard liu

While writing up a lab (Restriction Endonucleases, this time) and plowing through old 40K Digests (I'm picking out good stuff to stick in a web page, one of these days; 260 digests down, about 190 more to go) I thought up a concept for one of the "Lost Chapters." This goes with the idea that they're somehow so disgusting, so horrifying, and so abominable - the rebels of the Horus Heresy have nothing on them - that oblivion would be the only merciful fate. Mind you, it won't make sense if you don't watch "The Simpsons."

So with no further ado...

-begin transmission

Report coded: M322307.15

83-517:Aries Prime-Skye94/Kzer-Za



Report received: M321056.04

95.4915-Taneloth37-Maign/Devlan



To: Imperial Intelligence

From: Senior Observor-Investigator Kalriss

Subject: The Emperor's Samaritans



Legion II of the Adeptus Astartes:

The Emperor's Samaritans



Primarch: Neddus Flanderius

Colors: Green and Pink



The Emperor's Samaritans is a textbook Legion, and is almost completely orthodox. In fact, it is nigh impossible to find any fault with any of them. They are unwavering in their devotion to the Emperor, and fight with unmatchable skill on the field. They have never lost a battle, and events always seem to happen to their advantage. Nonetheless, fewer and fewer Marine Legions are willing to fight alongside the Samaritans, though this does not seem to dismay them or their Primarch. In recent years, Space Wolf Primarch Leman Russ has been reprimanded several times for speaking with Neddus in near-hostile tones ("Shut up, Flanderius."), but several other Primarchs have privately confessed to wanting very badly to do the same. If Neddus has taken any offense to this treatment, he hides it well.



Transcript from an intercepted communication:

<intercepted transmission begins>

"Hi-diddly-odilly, Brother-Sergeant Amael!"

<static> "...idilly-adilly, Brother-Captain Littonius!"

"Brother-Sergeant Amael, <indecipherable> please send a report my way?."

"Oh-diddily-okilly, Brother-Captain Littonius."

"Super-idilly-icious, Brother-Sergeant Amael."

<garbled> "...At 0500 hours, Squads Be'lal and Mattias met and engaged our almost downright inhospitable heretic neighbor buddies."

"Whoa Nellie, my good Brother-Sergeant! I certainly hope you didn't run into any problemeenies!"

"No-sirree-Bob! No survivors on the heretics' side, and no casualties on ours... <static>...a-okay! Report ends, Capta-reeno."

"Fan-ta-tidilly-tastic, Brother-Sergeant Amael. <garbled>...to go! Remember, the Emperor loves us!"

"And we love him, too! Thanks a million! Over-andidilly-out."

<intercepted transmission ends>



Prognosis of the Situation:

The Emperor's Samaritans are causing severe morale problems within the Adeptus Astartes. Three Legions have threatened to defect to the side of the thrice-accursed Rebels if the Samaritans are not turned away. Clearly, decisive action must be taken if this damnable rebellion is to be put to rest cleanly and quickly. Something must be done about the Samaritans, and now.



Recommendations Regarding the Emperor's Samaritans:

If I may speak openly, my honored peers...

Virus-bombing is too good for them.



-end transmission



(editor's notes/epilog:

During the Horus Heresy, the Samaritans were involved in many of the initial conflicts. Every time, a Loyalist Chapter would be in dire straits, and the Samaritans would show up to relieve them, and through a combination of good fortune for the Samaritans and bad luck for the Rebels, the day would instantly be won, with the Samaritans coming out smelling like roses every time. Some superstitious heretics noted that the universe just seemed to like the Samaritans. This, combined with the aggravating speech patterns of the chapter, led the Loyalist forces to offer the Samaritans over to Horus' forces. As it turned out, none of Horus' Marines were willing to stand alongside the Samaritans, either, and the deal fell through.

However, on Yarrant III, the entirety of the Emperor's Samaritans Chapter was caught in the middle of a large conflict, supported by elements of the Space Wolves Marine Legion, and facing a larger combined force of Traitor Night Lords and Wordbearers. When the Samaritans appeared on the scene, a run of bad luck immediately began to plague the Rebel forces. This was reversed, however, when all the Space Wolves, as one, turned on the Emperor's Samaritans and attacked them from the rear. Joined by the Night Lords and Wordbearers, the Space Wolves slaughtered the Emperor's Samaritans to a man, leaving no survivors, not even (especially, actually) their Primarch. Naturally, the Night Lords and Wordbearers immediately attacked and destroyed the Space Wolves, and posthumous honors were subsequently piled upon the Space Wolves.

No now-living Imperial knows the true fate of the Emperor's Samaritans, and the Chaos Marines aren't talking. Immediately following the genocide, the other Legions noticed the Samaritans' disappearance, but chose to ask no questions. When asked about the missing Chapter, the Space Wolves consistently replied, in unison, "I don't know, they were here just a minute ago; I think the Blood Angels saw them last," whereas the Blood Angels pointed their fingers at the Imperial Fists, who looked to the Whitescars, and so on. In time, even this pretense ended, and the Marines would simply shrug and look confused. Hundreds of years later, the truth of the matter was well and truly lost to time, and there was no longer any way to determine the true nature of the second Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. When the Inquisition came into its full power, unearthing the truth behind this "Lost Chapter" seemed to be a thankless job, when all the money was in squelching open heresy and in daemon-hunting, so the decision was made to delete all remaining records and declare the missing chapter an "official mystery.")

[Bigred]

The bigger issue I have with the whole thing is they seem to have written themselves into a corner here.

Why on terra would any of the traitor Primarchs (several of which are now immortal daemon-princes) give a flying fig about thier oaths of silence on the matter to their father. They had already gone traitor.

The only thing that makes any sense is a deep sense of shame, as if the fate of thier two brothers somehow had all thier collective brothers blood on thier hands.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I don't think that the Lost Legions fell to chaos. I think they deifed the Emperors Truth and worshiped him as a god. That is why the Emperor came down so hard on the WBs. I think their Primarchs took this line of thought further and felt they, as the Sons of a God, Were Gods also. I think one is Sigmar form Fantasy, and could see why he might feel he is a God. If you grew up on a world that had was bursting at the seams with Gods, and you beat them all, it might be hard to convince you you were not.

[Duke]

I would love it if GW said that sigmar ar one of the lost primarchs!

Duke

[Cherub]

Thats was a theory for a realy long time when I started playing and there was even rules for cross over. IE space marines in fantasy :) then for some reason all of it stopped and gw came out and said sigmar was not one of the missing primarchs and was indead seperate from the 40k universe. Though I do agree it would be mightly awesome.

[dietrich43]

Originally, the Warhammer world was set in the 40k universe, and I'm pretty sure that Sigmar was supposed to be a lost Primarch. Now, I don't know the Warhammer fluff that well, but I assume there was also a Chaos-tainted Primarch set in that world too.

SPOILERS AHEAD!

There's been a few recent easter eggs dropped.
1) The Ultramarines may have absorbed the remnants of the lost legions.
2) The Space Wolves may have eliminated one or both of them at the Emperor's command.
3) I forget the source, but at least two of the Primarchs were discussing the lost Legions and it was clear they had all sworn an oath to never mention it again. Now, as Big Red says, why haven't the traitor primarchs divulged what happened? Maybe they don't care, but I think he has a good point - they likely were involved in the destruction of the two Legions.

Also, and this hasn't been played up much since Flight of the Eisenstein, but remember all the Legions were originally filled with Terrans, and it was only after a Primarch was found that the Legion recruited from their homeworld. I wonder if there was a split in one or both missing Legions between the original Terrans and the Primarch and new recruits. The Terrans may have been been forgiven by the Emperor, and Guilliman may have offered to take them into his Legion and keep an eye on them for corruption. The alternative may have been to kill them, but considering they were veteran marines who went to war with the Emperor, he may have been reluctant to do that.

I doubt it was a case of mutation in the Legions. The Thousand Sons were mutating (after they found Magnus, which is interesting - did finding their Primarch release some dormant geneseed for them? did it do that for all the Legions?), and it doesn't appear it was limited to recruits from Prospero.

[Fantomex]

I don't think that the Lost Legions fell to chaos. I think they deifed the Emperors Truth and worshiped him as a god. That is why the Emperor came down so hard on the WBs. I think their Primarchs took this line of thought further and felt they, as the Sons of a God, Were Gods also. I think one is Sigmar form Fantasy, and could see why he might feel he is a God. If you grew up on a world that had was bursting at the seams with Gods, and you beat them all, it might be hard to convince you you were not.

I really doubt this one unfortunately, The First Heretic shows Lorgar quite cut up about the missing two, yet he still was choosing to worship the Emperor despite caution about it.
Of course, as the book started many many years before Isstvan we could imagine that maybe it all happened very quickly after Lorgars censure, as if they were maybe even more zealous about it than the Word Bearers..

However, I could imagine something to do with the genetic makeup of the two primarchs being the reason for their removal.
After all, the primarchs were created to be far from human.
Very far, to the point where regular man could barely understand the unimaginable power coursing through such icons of utter perfection. These are creations of such a technological zenith that the sheer process and comprehension behind it is, quite literally, unknowable, save the sole being who is as close to god-like as can physically be..

I personally interpret this as the Emperor using a bit of creativity and utilising certain traits from the animal kingdom as a basis for altering his own genes and other paragon examples of human ability, e.g. superior senses for Space Wolves coming from a canine genetic code, night vision coming from owls, etc.
Bearing in mind I mean this in the loosest terms, not literally that astartes have dog noses and owl eyes.. :D

So, next, Astartes gene-seed was created using the genetic sequencing left over after the primarchs were created and subsequently whisked away.
As such, it was used to make a lesser set of quickly, mass-produced warriors which would be responsive, even maybe suggestible, to the commands, raw and undeniable charisma and amazing abilities of the primarch they were sired from, almost like children obeying their parents, or trained animals.

Bad analogy I know, but stick with me here..

Now, the primarchs have all shown some abilities far and beyond that of regular humans and astartes, all believed to be facets of the Emperors abilities. To dip into a list (and onto Lexicanum):

Super-strength - All, especially Angron & Sanguinius
Super-speed - All
Flight - Sanguinius, Magnus (psychically)
Invisibility - Corax (removes himself from the minds of others), Mortarion (can become undetectable, even to Magnus)
Immense psychic ability - Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius, possibly Night Haunter
Divination - Magnus, Sanguinius, Night Haunter
Hyper-intelligence - All
Instant tactical appraisal - All, expecially Alpharius
Siege Ability - Rogal Dorn, Perturabo, others
Hyper-immunity - All, possibly more for Mortarion?
Rapid healing - All
Size-shifting - Magnus, possibly Alpharius?
Hyper-violence - All, especially Angron & Leman Russ
Imperceptible camouflage - Corax, Mortarion, Alpharius
Machine empathy/ability - Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Perturabo
etc
etc
(There used to be a great list on all abilities possessed by all primarchs on the old Black Library forums, but alas..)

Right, so we know that each primarch was gifted with a certain portion of the Emperors own ability, and we have also come to learn that each primarch was created to perform a certain function within what would have been a completely unified, human-dominated galaxy.

Now, all of these abilities could maybe be, or have been, shoehorned in an almost-the-same level ability possessed by others within the Imperium, e.g. assassins, Librarians, Inquisitors, Chapter Masters, etc.
Also, they have all had their place as abilities belonging to other races as well, again, demonstrated many times in canon.
As such, we can infer that there is pretty much no ability possessed by other races that is not possessed by another member of the Imperium, be it a primarch or the Emperor.

Obviously a certain angle here could be that of it being work done by the Old Ones, and yes, there is that distinct possibility, but it's not one I'm positing here..

We've seen at least two (that I can remember) very firm examples of astartes and primarch having a link beyond conventional genetics.
The first being Ferrus Manus appearing before the Iron Hands legion as Horus was defeated and the Emperor installed into the Golden Throne, and the second being Sanguinius' death creating the Black Rage.

Other possible genetic links post-primarch discovery include the high rate of psykers within the Thousand Sons, the obsession with bionics held by the Iron Hands, the hyper-acute senses of the Space Wolves, the fetish for perfection held by the Emperors Children, etc..

But, supposing the missing two primarchs had abilities seen previously, in canon, yet so far unseen as a power belonging to a primarch? Powers that could be enough to tip the scales against them with regards to the other primarchs?

I submit that each missing primarch may have held a power capable of gravely threatening the Emperor.

Obviously Horus, once infused with the power of the Chaos gods was a threat, but prior to his turning, he, and any other primarch, would have been defeatable by the Emperor.
It may have been a struggle, sure, but he would have been capable.
He is, after all, the Emperor..

But anyway, their powers.
These would likely be something not seen belonging to a primarch so far. Something possible, as seen from a fluff angle. Yet something against the grain, and powerful enough a threat to justify the possible execution of a primarch (bearing in mind, the Emperor only wanted Magnus brought back from Prospero for a possible scolding, even after ruining the webway portal in the throne room)..

I think one primarch was likely a very powerful pariah.

As in, enough of a psychic null to reduce the Emperors power significantly to the point of danger.
This would be a great threat, what could be more deadly than a straight rebellion, than one where you cannot utilise your greatest weapon against the traitors?

Also, it would mean the Emperor would not be able to psychically "suggest" ideas or obedience as he has been known to do with other primarchs such as Lorgar, and been unable to do to others, such as Angron.

With the rarity of pariahs, and such strength of said power, it could be that the legion belonging to this primarch never truly meshes, due to the innate revulsion felt. As such, where it was mentioned that after the disappearance of the legion there also happened to be an upswell of several thousand astartes within the Ultramarines ranks, this could be seen as symptomatic of such a power.

The other primarch, I thought, would probably be on the other end of the scale, yet of a different manner. I see this primarch as having an innate psychic or non-psychic link to his legion, and possibly others, culminating in a form of mental domination.
Imagine somewhere between the Tau Ethereals and the Enslaver Plague.

If such primarchs were to be, and needed to be "removed", surely this would be where some of Leman Russ' cryptic comments in Prospero Burns would tip towards, not to mention their unique relationship with the warp and psykers in general..
Perfect executioners indeed..

Heck, this is speculation and theory, given that there is no concrete proof either way, I'm just throwing out ideas that seem kinda cool.
Obviously this is very unlikely to be what *actually* happened, but if I intrigued you for five minutes, then hell yeah, I did my bit for the day..

Here, have the lexicanum view on it all: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

I must admit, I'd love it if GW actually filled in the blanks for us and straight-up told us what happened.

Saying "you can make up your own stories that way" doesn't work, more mature players who like the background and stories scorn such practise, whilst young kids will just use the "my primarch idea is better than your primarch idea" argument..

Similarly, I'd like to see the storyline taken beyond M41.999, and I'm sure they could do so in a good way, but what you want and what you get can be two very different things..

[AirHorse]

As bigred says, there mustve been something that happened that disgusted/hurt them all in a way that the traitor legions didnt, something which even now disgusts those who turned to chaos. If I was to speculate(like I am right now!) I would say one of them was corrupted by or sided with an alien of some kind. I can easily see that as a reason for their eradication from history, and why the other primarchs are uncomfortable with talking about it.

The titles "The tragic" and "The fallen" imply two different reasons for their loss, perhaps connected in some way. Maybe if one did side with an alien and refused to join the imperium, forcing a conflict against imperial forces and in the following battles "The tragic" took to the field against his brother and was in the end slain by "The fallen".

Its a simple explanation but would explain why knowledge of one of the emperors own son siding with xenos would be prevented from becoming common knowledge in such a xenos intolerant society. If the traitor legions hadnt been around for so long and been integral to the growth of the empire, and hadnt torn such a huge rift accross the imperium to the extent that it was impossible for knowledge of them to be eradicated then they would most likely have suffered the exact same fate in eradication from history. Even in the 41st millenium hefty secrets are constantly deleted from records, thats how the imperium operates.

[harrybuttwhisker]

its fairly apparent that the space wolves did for one primarch and at least some of that legion. however if your looking for a reason for them not talking about it. what if the other primarch wasn't quite the paragon superhuman all his brothers were and couldn't live up to there achievements. That missing primarch could have killed themselves, this would seem to be something that would shame there other brothers into silence, feeling perhaps they let them down or there sibling rivalry someway lead to it. Surely any warrior would be shamed into silence if he felt he had some way bullied (via there rivalry) or let down there less gifted brother to the point of them committing suicide. It is a dark future after all.

[wittdooley]

its fairly apparent that the space wolves did for one primarch and at least some of that legion. however if your looking for a reason for them not talking about it. what if the other primarch wasn't quite the paragon superhuman all his brothers were and couldn't live up to there achievements. That missing primarch could have killed themselves, this would seem to be something that would shame there other brothers into silence, feeling perhaps they let them down or there sibling rivalry someway lead to it. Surely any warrior would be shamed into silence if he felt he had some way bullied (via there rivalry) or let down there less gifted brother to the point of them committing suicide. It is a dark future after all.

If you'd have read The First Heretic, you'd know that this primarch is Lorgar.

Remember the Kyle's Mom's a Beeyatch song from South Park? Insert Lorgar where Cartman says "Kyle's Mom" and you've got it.

I don't think any of them would be that concerned. I think they'd be happy that their bloodline was cleansed of the weakness. Hell, Curze basically says to Lorgar, while saving him from Corax no less, that if it were any other situation, he'd have killed him, too.

Again, it's fairly clear that Russ was dispatched to kill one of them. I think it's HIGHLY likely that it was due to befriending, or siding with, Xenos, and refusing to execute them in the name of the Imperium. To me, that would be even more of an unforgiveable sin than the fact that Lorgar is a sissy boy. I'd say this primarch could easily classify as "the Fallen."

As for "the Tragic," I'm really at a loss.

[Fellend]

Tragic could simply be that he died before being discovered... which would also explain why his legion was absorbed into other legions.
I'd think that would be pretty tragic from a warriors point of view, never reaching your full potential before some twist of fate cuts you down, even a primarch would be struggling against natural phenomena

[wittdooley]

Tragic could simply be that he died before being discovered... which would also explain why his legion was absorbed into other legions.
I'd think that would be pretty tragic from a warriors point of view, never reaching your full potential before some twist of fate cuts you down, even a primarch would be struggling against natural phenomena

Oooh, I like that. I think that's a really good potential. I struggle with it, because usually something being tragic indicates a fall from grace. Which, of course, is indicative of our other missing primarch's moniker. I think there is some interesting merit to the notion that Sigmar could be a primarch. We all know that the Emperor isn't above lying to his sons. We all know that Sigmar essentially did what the Emperor is seeking to do, though on a smaller scale (being planetary and not inter-planetary). Hell, Sigmar even "dissapeared" like so many of the Primarchs that are not known to be dead.

Of course, GW is adamant about the fact that Sigmar is not a primarch, so alas...

[Fantomex]

Tragic could simply be that he died before being discovered... which would also explain why his legion was absorbed into other legions.
I'd think that would be pretty tragic from a warriors point of view, never reaching your full potential before some twist of fate cuts you down, even a primarch would be struggling against natural phenomena

Well, we know one thing for certain:

20 legions were created, all were reunited with their primarchs, and all fought in the Great Crusade.
Past that, though..

[miteyheroes]

Of course, GW is adamant about the fact that Sigmar is not a primarch, so alas...

Also, we know that Sigmar was born. From a woman. Not a pod.

[dietrich43]

GW has changed both the Warhammer and 40k fluff. Originally (going back to early 90's), the Warhammer world was set in the 40k universe. I think the Realms of Chaos books even had rules for having boltguns and other 40k weapons in Warhammer world. In that setting, Sigmar's arrival was foretold by a twin-tailed comet, and he was found, not born. GW has since revised the 40k fluff to make it clear that the Warhammer world isn't set in the 40k universe. GW also revised the Warhammer fluff to have Sigmar be born and close that debate.

[Machinator]

What if the two missing Legions had gone to war against each other over petty differences. If the Ultramarines and/or others had intervened perhaps the primarchs were executed for their actions and the survivors were integrated into their Legions. The remaining primarchs refuse to talk about it due to their shame of how their brothers acted. They were suppose to be above that.

Just my 2 cents ;)

[dmcq]

you have to think, what the hell happened to completely wipe out two legions. there must b a simple explanation. If they went to war with each other and refuted the imperial truth would that b enough?

[MarneusCalgar]

On all of this, I think they still remain blank because GW is planning something in the future for if the sales go very down...

[musical-fool]

Possibly one of the two missing Primarchs was Female and the legion of men refused to bow to her and the Emperor refused to allow a female legion to exist...

I may have jsut answered why there are no female SMs! :eek:

[Connjurus]

Possibly one of the two missing Primarchs was Female and the legion of men refused to bow to her and the Emperor refused to allow a female legion to exist...

I may have jsut answered why there are no female SMs! :eek:

No.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Possibly one of the two missing Primarchs was Female and the legion of men refused to bow to her and the Emperor refused to allow a female legion to exist...

I may have jsut answered why there are no female SMs! :eek:

Not wanting to copy but.

NO!

[musical-fool]

It were but a joke...

In any case I do not think that we will no for sure the truth behind the 2 missing/lost Primarchs as it is one of the more interesting points of the 40k/space marine background.