View Full Version : GW v Chapterhouse Lawsuit Update
weeble1000
02-01-2011, 11:21 AM
According to the GW v Chapterhouse docket, the complaint has been served and filed, so the lawsuit is going forward.
An initial hearing is scheduled for the 28th of February, but so far Chapterhouse hasn't answered the complaint. Technically, the time limit for Chapterhouse to answer the complaint ends on the 10th, but a 60 day informal extension is typical in these cases. Any agreement like this wouldn't show up on the docket since it's not a formal motion.
A more in depth look at the paperwork shows that the plaintiff (represented by Foley and Lardner) filed notice of the summons on January 11th. It was served in person a few days later and then sent back up to Chicago. The process was completed on the 28th. Given that Foley and Lardner's initial letter to Chapterhouse indicated that Chapterhouse had until the 10th to respond, it's reasonable to conclude that serving the complaint on the 11th was the plaintiff's predetermined schedule. If you also consider that the attorneys were unavailable until the 6th of January, it's pretty clear that Games-Workshop fully intended to serve the complaint and had little interest in resolving the issue without doing so.
We now have to wait and see how Chapterhouse answers the complaint.
Lockark
02-01-2011, 01:35 PM
My best wishes to chapter house that they can come out of this legal case in some form or another.
Quaade
02-01-2011, 05:22 PM
They've brought this suit upon themselves with their actions, they deserve no pitty nor best of wishes.
Furthermore they have no chance of winning because should they win, it would tilt the entire way copyrights and trademarks are administered.
Lockark
02-01-2011, 05:41 PM
They've brought this suit upon themselves with their actions, they deserve no pitty nor best of wishes.
Furthermore they have no chance of winning because should they win, it would tilt the entire way copyrights and trademarks are administered.
I agree COMPLETELY that they brought this on their selves, and they will not win.
But you can still tell the creators of Chapter House really wanted to see this company of theirs do well, and had high hopes. Thus why I hope the preceding legal case dose not end up leading to them having to close there doors for good.
Dark_Templar
02-01-2011, 08:51 PM
Hrm, they will be missed, especially since half their range was more impressive than much of the geniune GW stuff.
Anywho, I did read a post from CH previously that stated that they do not feel they have broken any laws.
Should be an interesting lawsuit if that is the case.
The best option for GW would be to absorb CH and make use of their modelling skills and ideas.
DT.
wittdooley
02-01-2011, 09:26 PM
Hrm, they will be missed, especially since half their range was more impressive than much of the geniune GW stuff.
Guffaw!! Like what??!?
Anywho, I did read a post from CH previously that stated that they do not feel they have broken any laws.
It's this arrogance that I find the most objectionable in this case. They figured they were either above, or outside, the rules. There's a reason we haven't seen Armorcast, Maxmini, or any of the other custom bitz makers sued.
The best option for GW would be to absorb CH and make use of their modelling skills and ideas.
DT.
Really? Maybe you and I are seeing different casts. And as for ideas? Sheeeeit. None of the ideas are original! That's the issue!
Vaktathi
02-01-2011, 10:20 PM
While I applaud Chapterhouse for their efforts and their products, filling gaps in GW's product line and responding to market demands, they were far too blatant about what they were doing and were pretty unabashedly stepping on GW's IP which, lets be honest, is 90% of their value (very few people would play 40k without the lore).
Chapterhouse could have produced their kits with little or no modification and avoided this lawsuit, but unfortunately GW must respond in this manner to retain the rights to the IP that makes them what they are.
Drew da Destroya
02-01-2011, 11:01 PM
You guys might all want to head down to the "Corporate Discussion" forum... all of this has been argued already.
Brass Scorpion
02-02-2011, 09:37 AM
You guys might all want to head down to the "Corporate Discussion" forum... all of this has been argued already.Yeah, this was done to death in another thread that's still fairly recent. This is a duplicate topic thread.
chapterhousestudios
02-02-2011, 10:09 AM
There is actually some new updates to this topic, I am waiting to hear back from our attorneys on what we should/can post.
weeble1000
02-02-2011, 11:32 AM
Chapterhouse makes products primarily of interest to Warhammer 40K players. The Chapterhouse lawsuit is news. An update about the progress of the suit is likewise news that is of interest to Warhammer 40K players. Due to the nature of the discussion, the GW v Chapterhouse threads were moved to Wargames Corporate Discussion. I felt that a succinct update regarding the docket would be beneficially posted on the 40K News and Rumors board so that those readers uninterested in discussing GW corporate could simply be made aware of the lawsuit's progress.
Brass Scorpion is right that there's a wealth of information about this case, its legal implications, implications for the wargaming community, and its relationship to Games-Workshop's management down on the Wargames Corporate Discussion board. I heartily encourage all of the above posters to read through some of the threads.
Drew da Destroya
02-03-2011, 11:04 AM
I wasn't saying that you shouldn't have posted your post, Weeble. I meant to head off the argument I already saw brewing, by redirecting those posters down into the Corporate forum, where said arguments have already been had (with yourself as a main participant, I believe).
Your post definitely qualifies as "News". Just the ensuing argument didn't need to be rehashed.
Denzark
02-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Chapterhouse makes products primarily of interest to Warhammer 40K players. The Chapterhouse lawsuit is news. An update about the progress of the suit is likewise news that is of interest to Warhammer 40K players. Due to the nature of the discussion, the GW v Chapterhouse threads were moved to Wargames Corporate Discussion. I felt that a succinct update regarding the docket would be beneficially posted on the 40K News and Rumors board so that those readers uninterested in discussing GW corporate could simply be made aware of the lawsuit's progress.
Brass Scorpion is right that there's a wealth of information about this case, its legal implications, implications for the wargaming community, and its relationship to Games-Workshop's management down on the Wargames Corporate Discussion board. I heartily encourage all of the above posters to read through some of the threads.
There is actually some new updates to this topic, I am waiting to hear back from our attorneys on what we should/can post.
Wow I actually agree with weeble for an change - this is news so a separate post although corporate news so possibly should be elsewhere.
CHS don't waste your time asking your lawyers anything - anything you post will eventually boil down to the statement 'We're innocent' and will be highly biased. Why not wait now until the outcome and the vindication you insist is coming your way?
chapterhousestudios
02-03-2011, 05:11 PM
Wow I actually agree with weeble for an change - this is news so a separate post although corporate news so possibly should be elsewhere.
CHS don't waste your time asking your lawyers anything - anything you post will eventually boil down to the statement 'We're innocent' and will be highly biased. Why not wait now until the outcome and the vindication you insist is coming your way?
I am sorry, but I do not believe you represent the opinions and interest of the whole of the Bell of Lost Souls membership, so I will continue to post.
My company, Chapterhouse Studios LLC, has been very fortunate to locate pro-bono counsel with the help and tips of a few of our customers. Those customers have extensive legal background as well as leads that helped us find a firm that believes in our case enough to support us.
Thanks to some friends good advice and experience Winston & Strawn LLP - http://winstonandstrawn.com/ will defend us in the case filed by Games Workshop.
I consider myself very lucky to have three attorneys from the firm willing to be our represent us in the case. The lead on the case, Jennifer Golinveaux, has major experience behind her, and I am confident that with her teams' help we will come out of this experience in great shape.
For everyone who has given their support, I really do appreciate it.
We are confident in our position and that the Court will ultimately vindicate us in this case.
Sincerely,
Nick Villacci
Chapterhouse Studios LLC
Denzark
02-03-2011, 05:57 PM
I am sorry, but I do not believe you represent the opinions and interest of the whole of the Bell of Lost Souls membership, so I will continue to post.
I don't claim to but thought I could save you the time of rehashing old ground. Oh-oh, too late, anyhoo...
My company, Chapterhouse Studios LLC, has been very fortunate to locate pro-bono council with the help of a few of our customers. Those customers have intensive legal background as well as connections that helped us find a firm that believes in our case enough to support us.
Wow. Very fortunate. Of course, some one with true courage of their convictions would have fronted the money, safe in the knowledge that the Judge and/or jury will not only find in their favour but will award them costs. then you wouldn't have needed to be 'fortunate' enough for pro bono work.
Thanks to some friends good advice and experience we have a legal agreement for Winston & Strawn LLP - http://winstonandstrawn.com/ to represent us in our case.
I consider myself very lucky to have three attorneys from the firm willing to be our representatives during the case and any other negotiations with Games Workshop. The lead on the case Jennifer Golinveaux has some major experience behind her, and I am confident that with her teams help we will come out of this experience in great shape.
I'll give you this, she is quite foxy, I'm going through an older woman phase at the mo. http://www.winston.com/index.cfm?contentID=24&itemid=13554
For everyone who has given their support, I really do appreciate it. I will do my best to let everyone know what happens (as much as is ok with the attorneys).
For those who swore up and down that GW was going to shut us down, bury us in legal fees and we had no chance to win since we were obviously in the wrong... I know the firm and attorneys representing us do not think that will happen, and they know much more about IP laws then we do.
Well that's just as well isn't it. Whilst I don't claim to be an expert, I doubt that the multi-million pound profit-making business has hired total amateurs as a giant poker bluff becuase they assumed you would roll over and play dead, but they're now quaking in their boots because you've called them with lil-miss pro-bono. Actually, looking at this, the woman named on the blurb posted on the BoLS main site isn't a slouch on IP stuff as well - prosecuted infringement actions relating to adjustable mounts for flat sceens - I bet this is third party stuff the sonys, panasonics et al didn't like, should be interesting fight. http://www.foley.com/people/bio.aspx?employeeid=19247
Sincerely,
Nick Villacci
Chapterhouse Studios LLC
Ta Da!
jorz192
02-03-2011, 07:05 PM
The comment about Ms. Jennifer Golinveaux was out of line. You're reply was altogether immature.
At the same time, with respect to Chapter House Studios, their case is toast.
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
02-03-2011, 07:32 PM
jorz192, with due respect to you, are you an Attorney, do you know everything there is to IP laws, do you know everything about GW or CHS? IF your answer is no to any of these, then leave it to the professionals and dont comment with fluff you know nothing about.
Let's just wait and see what happens, im sure CHS as he said will update us on the outcome. So let's all just simmer down, and let the legal teams sort out the outcome.
As for me CHS, me i love your stuff and will continue to buy your products, as you do a service to this community of hobbists with your parts and miniatures that GW is to lame to do.
But ChapterHouseStudios, are you ever going to produce the Flaming Braziers that can go on vehicles, buildings?? Still waiting to buy 30 or more from you when you make them.
chapterhousestudios
02-03-2011, 08:16 PM
The comment about Ms. Jennifer Golinveaux was out of line. You're reply was altogether immature.
At the same time, with respect to Chapter House Studios, their case is toast.
I agree with your comment regarding Ms. Jennifer Golinveaux. She is very intelligent and I am sure she would be insulted by that comment.
jorz192, with due respect to you, are you an Attorney, do you know everything there is to IP laws, do you know everything about GW or CHS? IF your answer is no to any of these, then leave it to the professionals and dont comment with fluff you know nothing about.
Let's just wait and see what happens, im sure CHS as he said will update us on the outcome. So let's all just simmer down, and let the legal teams sort out the outcome.
As for me CHS, me i love your stuff and will continue to buy your products, as you do a service to this community of hobbists with your parts and miniatures that GW is to lame to do.
But ChapterHouseStudios, are you ever going to produce the Flaming Braziers that can go on vehicles, buildings?? Still waiting to buy 30 or more from you when you make them.
Too true on all accounts.
You will be happy to know that I spoke to the gentleman working on the molds for that piece and I will be picking up the production molds next week.
Now you just need to ask Father Winter to let up on the ice and snow in the US so we can get the freight company to deliver our casting equipment.
Sincerely,
Nick - Chapterhousestudios.com
chapterhousestudios
02-03-2011, 08:18 PM
.
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
02-03-2011, 08:41 PM
Thats fantastic news.
Well here we have either sweltering heat of 30+ degrees, or like now its pouring rain, but they just put it down to melbourne weather.
Far north we had floods, now a level 5 cyclone and more floods, feel sorry for them. Glad i live in the south of Australia.
Can't wait to see those items :) Will be watching your site. As for MR.Winter, i'm a patient person.
jorz192
02-03-2011, 09:20 PM
Thank you for saying "With all due respect" before telling me to shut-up. I wasn't going to comment in the thread until I read rude the comment about Ms. Jennifer Golinveaux.
Lawyers and Attorneys are not the only careers that require knowledge about copyrights. I did make a gross overstatement about the case being "toast" and I will admit that. But as an artist I am familiar with some copyright laws regarding a image created by an individual. The only example of a case that I am familiar with that could predict a outcome for Chapter House Studios is Shepard Fairey vs. The Associated Press.
That ruling was decided in favor of Shepard Fairey regarding his popular image of Barrack Obama. What caused the judge to rule the initial case in his favor was partially that the intent of the image he created from the photograph was different from the original press photograph.
I am not an expert on legal matters, you are correct about that, but the sculptures made by Chapter House Studios had the same basic contents as the images created by Games-Workshop. They also used names coined by
Games-Workshop to describe their products. The image of a Space Marine and their heraldry is iconic within the Warhammer fan community, but not so common that it could be interchanged freely with images of any other futuristic soldier or alien.
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
02-04-2011, 12:23 AM
Firstly, i wasn't that rude to tell you to shut up, reading my post as you did you would see that i just mentioned that we don't know all the facts, and that only legal experts, owners of CHS and GW legal team truelly know what is happening in this particular case. We shouldn't judge until we all know the facts.
If others are out of line for any remarks to the woman defence team, well that something i don't agree with either. it was out of line.
Whatever the outcome i hope CHS can continue to make such items as they are great, i personnally love the Rhino and Landraider Dragon armour, it looks fantastic an i was very happy with them. Not to mention shoulder pads, a Dragon Chaplain/Captian he is the centrepiece of my army.
I would love to see other makers of compatible parts more, and as long as CHS stays open for business in the far future i will be a happy customer and support them.
jorz192
02-04-2011, 02:48 AM
I don't think there is anyone who would like to see a small business shut down at a time like this.
No matter what the result is of the case Chapter House Studios can continue to make miniatures.
Games-workshop can't stop them from making 28mm miniatures that are compatible with Warhammer.
They can only have an effect on their marketing techniques.
Chapter House Studios closing would piss me off, I would like to see them do something similar to
cough* science-fiction soldiers wearing trench coats, WWII-esque helmets, and gas masks.
Denzark
02-04-2011, 05:07 AM
I don't think there is anyone who would like to see a small business shut down at a time like this.
No matter what the result is of the case Chapter House Studios can continue to make miniatures.
Games-workshop can't stop them from making 28mm miniatures that are compatible with Warhammer.
They can only have an effect on their marketing techniques.
Chapter House Studios closing would piss me off, I would like to see them do something similar to
cough* science-fiction soldiers wearing trench coats, WWII-esque helmets, and gas masks.
Oh right, you want them to rip off Imperial Trenchers from Warzone/Mutant Chronicles next?
Renegade
02-04-2011, 06:48 AM
If GW were 100% sure of this, they could have stopped CHS trading those disputed items while the case continued, particualy in the UK and in the EU.
Either way, I am not sure that CHS has a chance, as even if a US court find in favour, GW may take it to the UK or EU courts to challenge any unfavourable out come.
Moral of the story is "Don't rip off other folks work".
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
02-04-2011, 06:56 AM
Oh right, thats ok, then again on another thread we talk about Instant Mold, and everyone is forgetting that and copying GW products..wait isn't that ripping off GW too?
harrybuttwhisker
02-04-2011, 07:46 AM
My initial instinct is this could be a split decision. From what's been posted in several places and having knowledge of the chapter house range I can see certain areas being ok'ed and others falling foul of IP. I also feel GW might have asked for too much punitive remission and have employed too much of a scatter gun approach, even naming uninvolved parties ( source:resin addict forum). What I hope will come from this case will be a more comprehensive ruling on what is acceptable as aftermarket third party add on's in the wargaming hobby giving everyone clearer guidelines for the future. I would hate to see a pure corporate steamroller decision. I'm very pleased that chapter house has retained good council as I feel this case needs to be heard on merit and not on wallet.
DrLove42
02-04-2011, 08:42 AM
Oh right, thats ok, then again on another thread we talk about Instant Mold, and everyone is forgetting that and copying GW products..wait isn't that ripping off GW too?
Difference is instant mould isn't copying things for profit. You might be screwing GW over, by not buying more bits, but you ain't earning money when you do it...
Not that i'm saying CHS is doing that!
Copyright law is a murky horrible place and i'm keeping my highly educated but law inept nose out of this
Defenestratus
02-04-2011, 09:55 AM
Oh right, thats ok, then again on another thread we talk about Instant Mold, and everyone is forgetting that and copying GW products..wait isn't that ripping off GW too?
Legal == Making a backup copy of a CD you just bought and putting it in your collection.
Criminal == Making a back copy of a CD to sell copies to your friends.
Legal == Making a copy of a bit for your personal collection
Criminal == Making a copy of a bit to sell to your friend.
The act of copying isn't in itself illegal - its the unlicensed transfer of intellectual property via monetary transaction thats the key.
harrybuttwhisker
02-04-2011, 10:12 AM
except for the current argument between layers regarding the legality of copying CDs for personal use, there is a case being proposed that copying a CD so you have one in your house and one in your car for example would be unfair use. Crazy I know but them lawyers love an argument, were this found to be the case GS casting etc would be out the window.
Of course setting legal precedent and enforcement are two different things. Hence the old adage, don't stick your head above the parapet lest it be shot off.
chapter house weren't very good at ducking.
Reminder! This thread is not about gender or anything having to do with it, all posts that are related to that will be deleted by the inquisition. Stay on topic.
weeble1000
02-04-2011, 11:52 AM
Winston and Strawn is a powerhouse firm. Congratulations on getting pro-bono representation from them. If Games-Workshop wanted a fight, they sure as hell have one now.
I'd also like to point out that large firms like this don't take pro-bono cases on a whim. The fact that they are willing to represent Chapterhouse Studios for free is a clear indication that they believe in the principle of the case and that it is winnable. A firm like this doesn't take a case intending to lose.
Taking a pro-bono case is a very public statement about what values your firm supports. Not only is Winston and Strawn saying that they believe Chapterhouse Studios deserves a defense, but also that they believe Chapterhouse Studios is in the right. Coming from a very large, very successful firm like Winston and Strawn, especially considering the talent, skill, and experience of their intellectual property attorneys, this endorsement speaks volumes about the case.
This lawsuit has just risen from an unsightly blip on the wargaming radar to a major event with potentially far-reaching consequences. Games-Workshop now faces the very real possibility of having to litigate this case. There is now no limitation on the ability of Chapterhouse Studios to take this case into a courtroom. Winston and Strawn has the resources to take this case as far as it needs to go to achieve a favorable resolution for its client.
If Games-Workshop refuses to settle out of court, the wargaming industry will have clear rulings about the boundaries of Games-Workshop's intellectual property.
If Games-Workshop negotiates a settlement, then Chapterhouse Studios will have established a successful method for handling a Games-Workshop lawsuit.
In either case the result is clear: Games-Workshop can no longer dictate the terms of its intellectual property with impunity.
It doesn't matter which party you agree with in this case. No matter how it comes out, even if Games-Workshop wins in open court, Games-Workshop's legal department will have to alter its position with regard to the wargaming industry.
Drew da Destroya
02-04-2011, 01:59 PM
Getting their case represented Pro Bono is a really interesting development. It definitely makes their side of things look a bit sunnier.
I'm interested in seeing where this goes. Weeble's got an excellent point, this case will easily determine the future of 3rd party miniature creators.
You guys might all want to head down to the "Corporate Discussion" forum... all of this has been argued already.
This thread was has already been moved to the "wargames corporate discussion,"
Sister Rosette Soulknyt
02-05-2011, 08:04 AM
Defenestratus, you took the moral high ground against someone conserning downloading the Ultramarines movie and all but chastised them for it, yet here you are saying its all right to copy GW bits. Make up your mind.It's either ok or your a hypocrit.
Copying, downloading and making your own versions that distinctly are from another company and not paying for it is pretty much stealing. Do you intend to pay GW for not buying there products and making your copied version of the Storm Shield??
I'm waiting to see how this turns out, and i'm sure that many other small companies who make alternate parts will be too. GW can't afford to lose this battle as if they do, they won't have any claus to go after anyone who makes parts they may/may not go on their GW miniatures.
For ChapterHouse, i wish them luck, and hope they keep on there good work.
Mauglum.
02-05-2011, 04:29 PM
Hi all.
I dont think the outcome of this legal battle will do anything but clarify the sitiuation on trademarks and thier fair use.
Many companies make product that can be used in conjunction with other companies products.
And they play it safe and have no problems with law suits or other legal threats...
I assume it is Chapterhouse studios use of 'GW trademarks' to 'advertise' Chapterhouse Studios product, that has caused GW to flex its legal departments muscles.
In UK law a trademark is automaticaly registered to any company simply by using it.
As soon as GW printed the name of a specific minature in ANY of its publications , it became a tradmark of GW.
However, in the US and other contries, a trademark has to be registered for it to be legaly owned by the company.
Thefore if GW has NOT registered any of its trademarks in the US , then Chapterhouse Studios could feel they are legaly able to use these particualr trademarks.
I personaly feel GW has thrown the book as Chapterhouse Studios and listed many things that are not strictly persuable in law.(Strong arm scare tactics.)
However, some issues with improper use of tradmarks are likely to be contested strongly by GW.
And as Chapterhouse Studios HAS changed the terms used on thier web site, this could be seen as admission of 'improper use of tradmarks.'(A bit too free and loose with trademark useage.)
I belive this matter will be resolved out of court, if all parties are to save face.
I fail to see what benifits a long and expencive legal battle would achive , apart from exposing beligerance and ignorance in varing amounts from both parties.
TTFN
addamsfamily36
02-05-2011, 08:55 PM
Copying, downloading and making your own versions that distinctly are from another company and not paying for it is pretty much stealing. Do you intend to pay GW for not buying there products and making your copied version of the Storm Shield??
I would like to point out, that Gamesworkshop have actually encouraged the personal use of copied pieces. It was either a white dwarf article or a web article (pretty sure it was white dwarf though, sorry i can't quote the exact issue) that demonstrated using green stuff to make press moulds. In the example, they copy a dark angel symbol i believe, and then show it being used on some conversions etc.
weeble1000
02-06-2011, 12:50 AM
Mauglum,
You've raised a point about the lawsuit that's come up a lot. I'll address it again briefly.
Trademarks and copyrights are two different kinds of intellectual property. Games Workshop is alleging both trademark infringement and copyright infringement. Games Workshop has numerous registered trademarks in the US, such as "Warhammer" "Warhammer 40,000" and "Space Marine."
Whether or not Games Workshop was motivated to sue Chapterhouse Studios because of trademark issues, the allegations are entirely separate. For example, Games Workshop could have only made an allegation of trademark infringement (I'm bundling things like unfair use, confusion, and dilution together under "trademark infringement" because all of those allegations are related to the same usage of the marks and the arguments are therefore intimately related).
Chapterhouse's defenses against trademark infringement are for the most part very clear and backed up by long-standing precedent. It is reasonable to assume that the trademark infringement claims won't go anywhere.
The copyright infringement claims are what make this case interesting and significant for a lot of different reasons. Trademark issues are usually pretty cut and dry, at least compared to things like copyrights and trade dress. I registered this word, you used the word, and we're arguing about whether or not that use was fair/caused damage.
In contrast, claims of copyright infringement can be very muddled and volatile. Copyrights aren't registered, they're claimed. This means the boundary of what you own hasn't been predetermined by an entity that is presumed to be correct, all things being equal. A patent, for example, is a piece of intellectual property that's defined by the written claims in the patent and described by the specification. US patents are granted by the patent and trademark office, just like trademarks. So when you go to court, you get to say that the PTO already defined what you own. Now, the judge/jury can overrule the PTO. This is an intended function of the court, because otherwise folks would be at the mercy of the PTO with no recourse but to the PTO.
By and large, copyrights don't work like that. On top of this, Games Workshop is claiming many copyrights and very broad copyrights. like all intellectual property, copyrights constitute a legally-sanctioned monopoly. So the broader a copyright is, the more you can prevent others from doing without your consent. This means that because Games Workshop's claimed copyrights are very broad, the interpretation of them could have a significant impact well beyond the immediate scope of the lawsuit. Additionally, the type of copyright infringement Games Workshop is claiming is in some sense sort of new. Again, this means that the way that the claims are interpreted could have implications for other copyright or trade dress lawsuits in the future.
These and other factors make Games Workshop's case rather volatile. It is well beyond a sure thing and it's hard to say for certain how things would fall out in open court. It would be likely that neither party would come out unscathed, but Games Workshop has everything to lose here. Now that Chapterhouse Studios has has excellent pro-bono counsel, it has a lot of room to take risks and much less to lose than Games Workshop.
weeble1000
02-06-2011, 01:12 AM
I want to put up a little analysis of the position that Chapterhouse Studios is in now that it has pro-bono counsel from Winston and Strawn.
Chapterhouse Studios is fighting to protect the integrity of its business, but that's much more secure now that the pressure of legal fees is gone. You won't see monetary relief awarded as a result of this case, so Chapterhouse is now financially secure; it won't be run out of business.
A conservative estimate of the outcome would have both parties wind up a little bloody. Chapterhouse would take that as the inability to produce a few of its products. Games Workshop would take that as limitations to its claimed intellectual property. Because Games Workshop has put basically all of its intellectual property related to Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 on the table, all of it is potentially at risk. Any part of it that is narrowed, or even eliminated, would be a severe blow to the company, or at least Games Workshop would feel that it was a severe blow. This effectively gives Chapterhouse all of the cards in settlement negotiations (and experienced, no nonsense attorneys to negotiate it).
You could say that the tables have been turned now that Winston and Strawn is representing Chapterhouse Studios. All of this is the direct result of Games Workshop's copyright infringement claims. Games Workshop stuck its neck out a little too far because it didn't for the world think that Chapterhouse would be able to put up a legitimate fight. Now that Chapterhouse is able to put upl fight, the possibility of a court date is very, very real.
Games Workshop doesn't want to be in court, that's no secret. The premise of the lawsuit was that Chapterhouse didn't want to be in court either, so they could both settle out of court, right? Well the threat of actually stepping back from the table and saying, "screw it, I'll see you in the courtroom," was previously in the hands of Games Workshop, because Chapterhouse couldn't afford to be in court and keep the business afloat. Now Chapterhouse is wielding that threat. This is because Chapterhosue Studios is no longer afraid of court. Winston and Strawn would love to be there and money is not an issue for them. They aren't looking to keep fees down or settle this thing quickly.
This puts Games Workshop in a lose/lose situation born out of its own hubris. It has two options. First, it can go to court, pay Foley and Lardner millions of dollars, and maybe lose control over its intellectual property. Second, it could give Chapterhouse Studios a favorable settlement, but that would necessarily undermine Games Workshop's legal position. Its legal position would go from we-sue-you-and-you-go-out-of-business to we-sue-you-and-you-get-a-free-licence-to-make-Warhammer-models.
Games Workshop's lawyers must now try to find a way to make Chapterhouse Studios happy while minimizing damage to their client. I am reminded of a wonderful Danny DeVito quote from Other Peoples' Money: "Lawyers are like nuclear warheads. They have theirs, so I have mine. Once you use them they f--- everything up!" Chapterhouse Studios just weaponized its plutonium, so Games Workshop better grab that red phone real quick. Games Workshop started this thing and it needs to man up, treat Chapterhouse with some respect, and find an amiable way to resolve the conflict.
Denzark
02-06-2011, 04:41 AM
Weeb
I like the way you've used the assumptive close, that GW are in a lose/lose situation.
I can see absolutely no reason why a multi-million pound profit making company, listed and floated on the LSE, would resort to what you are describing - ie a massive gamble.
Especially not a gamble where they may lose or compromise the integrity of one of their biggest assets - the thing that keeps us coming back even with price raises and poor service - the IP/fluff.
Even less logical to my mind is that, if they were bluffing, when the bluff was called, ie engaging pro bono wunderkinds, that GW would continue - if the cards in your hand ain't worth jack no amount of chip bullying will win you the hand when your bluff is called.
Again going on logic I therefore follow through that GW think they have an option 3 - they can win, and piledrive CHS into the ground for everything they have stated in the case.
Anyway, now CHS is so confident, I believe there was a little matter of credit notes for people who contributed to the defence fund - a pro bono lawyer, combined with the fact that CHS are so sure they will win, means he can carry through this promise as he clearly doesn't need the money.
Aldramelech
02-06-2011, 06:00 AM
Weeb
I like the way you've used the assumptive close, that GW are in a lose/lose situation.
I can see absolutely no reason why a multi-million pound profit making company, listed and floated on the LSE, would resort to what you are describing - ie a massive gamble.
Especially not a gamble where they may lose or compromise the integrity of one of their biggest assets - the thing that keeps us coming back even with price raises and poor service - the IP/fluff.
Even less logical to my mind is that, if they were bluffing, when the bluff was called, ie engaging pro bono wunderkinds, that GW would continue - if the cards in your hand ain't worth jack no amount of chip bullying will win you the hand when your bluff is called.
Again going on logic I therefore follow through that GW think they have an option 3 - they can win, and piledrive CHS into the ground for everything they have stated in the case.
Anyway, now CHS is so confident, I believe there was a little matter of credit notes for people who contributed to the defence fund - a pro bono lawyer, combined with the fact that CHS are so sure they will win, means he can carry through this promise as he clearly doesn't need the money.
I believe this is a classic example of "having an attack of the clever's". Just because their big dont automatically make em smart.
addamsfamily36
02-06-2011, 06:09 AM
If CHS wins, and GW loses value in its IP, CHS and other parties gain right to make 3rd party products etc etc Then it will be a sad day.
Ok some people in the community will get what they have always wanted. Alternative products that they can use. GW stores on the other hand can just turn around and say that wasn't made by us, please remove it from our gaming tables. So the products will only be able to be used at non official GW sites anyway. (which isn't necessarily a problem).
But As a company clearly already struggling in the current market, with loss of earnings, store closures, staff cuts etc etc. This case if it goes against GW will not only hurt GW but in turn will effect CHS.
If GW loses its Power over its IP, brand, trademarks , copyrights then the vultures will come and tear it apart. Ok GW is a strong company, but its still Produces elite/luxury items in a devastated currency climate. If as a result GW falls even further down the ladder as the lead competitor in the market there will be more cut backs, price increases, staff job loses. the list goes on.
I hope the day never comes that GW loses this case and 100 other parties jump on the band wagon and start producing alternative products to go with GW miniatures. What if it effected GW so much, that they had to drastically downsize, WHat if further down the line its loses more and more of its hold on its IP, what if it had to sell its IP? or go bankrupt? (ok not likely but once you start the ball rolling with one case, who knows what can happen).
So if GW was effected, And shut down, all those 3rd parties suddenly have some products that have nothing to go on anymore. No ideas to steal.
Just a thought.
Think about it.
eldargal
02-06-2011, 06:16 AM
You are overblowing the situation dramatically. CHS is not making miniatures, they are making conversion parts that require GW miniatures. If your logic held then Mantic et al who produce fantasy 28mm scale miniatures would all be hurting GW. Fact is competition is only good for the industry AND Games Workshop, if it makes them lift their game.
If CHS wins this case, it says to GW that other companies can make conversion parts for their models, it does not give other companies the right to GWs entire IP.
Denzark
02-06-2011, 06:30 AM
I believe this is a classic example of "having an attack of the clever's". Just because their big dont automatically make em smart.
I should know bud - waiting for PR11 to see if Dr Fox cuts us back further. Ho hum. Having said that I can't help thinking a big company would be more risk averse with shareholders money.
If CHS wins, and GW loses value in its IP, CHS and other parties gain right to make 3rd party products etc etc Then it will be a sad day.
Ok some people in the community will get what they have always wanted. Alternative products that they can use. GW stores on the other hand can just turn around and say that wasn't made by us, please remove it from our gaming tables. So the products will only be able to be used at non official GW sites anyway. (which isn't necessarily a problem).
But As a company clearly already struggling in the current market, with loss of earnings, store closures, staff cuts etc etc. This case if it goes against GW will not only hurt GW but in turn will effect CHS.
If GW loses its Power over its IP, brand, trademarks , copyrights then the vultures will come and tear it apart. Ok GW is a strong company, but its still Produces elite/luxury items in a devastated currency climate. If as a result GW falls even further down the ladder as the lead competitor in the market there will be more cut backs, price increases, staff job loses. the list goes on.
I hope the day never comes that GW loses this case and 100 other parties jump on the band wagon and start producing alternative products to go with GW miniatures. What if it effected GW so much, that they had to drastically downsize, WHat if further down the line its loses more and more of its hold on its IP, what if it had to sell its IP? or go bankrupt? (ok not likely but once you start the ball rolling with one case, who knows what can happen).
So if GW was effected, And shut down, all those 3rd parties suddenly have some products that have nothing to go on anymore. No ideas to steal.
Just a thought.
Think about it.
there is a little biting of the hand that feeds here.
You are overblowing the situation dramatically. CHS is not making miniatures, they are making conversion parts that require GW miniatures. If your logic held then Mantic et al who produce fantasy 28mm scale miniatures would all be hurting GW. Fact is competition is only good for the industry AND Games Workshop, if it makes them lift their game.
If CHS wins this case, it says to GW that other companies can make conversion parts for their models, it does not give other companies the right to GWs entire IP.
Other companies are, my dear EG, but not being so blatant in their ripping off. I see fully what everyone says about spare ipod covers etc - but most of these are ****e quality, thats why they're most commonly found being sold by pikeys in town centre market stalls. GW has been quite repetitive in their wish to keep the quality high hence no external licenses except those controlled tightly like FFG.
eldargal
02-06-2011, 06:41 AM
Yes, but 3rd party production is legal, so what GW wants in this regard is irrelevent. Of course they want to maintain absolute control over every aspect of their IP but that doesn't mean it is legal. Making parts 'for use with GW' products and specifying what products is also perfectly legal. Their DoM and female Farseer models are obviously complete models and I'm not sure what will happen re those. Its interesting and odd though, that one of the things that GW seem particularly obsessed with is the Tau style walker, something which isn't particularly fluffy (Tau and fliers).:confused:
Col.Gravis
02-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Joy.... I find myself agreeing with weeble, GW is now going to hurt either way. I find myself wishing CH had just rolled over an died. Should I be ashamed of that? Possibly. Does it actually bother me, I'm erring on no.
And before I get lynched, that's not exacting the feeling I expected, Im somewhat surprised with myself.
weeble1000
02-06-2011, 12:04 PM
Its interesting and odd though, that one of the things that GW seem particularly obsessed with is the Tau style walker, something which isn't particularly fluffy (Tau and fliers).:confused:
I think Games Workshop's beef about the walker is a complex issue for the company. It's a whole model. It looks really cool. It looks like it could be part of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. I imagine that this is weirding out Games Workshop. Games Workshop is probably asking questions like, "Hey, can he do that," and "Why didn't we think of that?" It might even be thinking that the walker is something it had already thought about producing. I think the walker is also tied up in issues about how Games Workshop's intellectual property is interpreted. If one company can make a whole model that could be used with the game, couldn't other companies do that? What about in the realm of video games, or books, or even movies?
I think Games Workshop is hyper sensitive about its intellectual property and it has had a massive overreaction to Chapterhouse Studios. The company feels vulnerable and I think it feels like Chapterhouse Studios is stealing what it has worked for years to create. I also think that it's worried that this might be a sign of things to come. Young companies with good ideas, creativity, and low overhead are probably a little worrisome. It might be that Games Workshop feels like its business is slowly slipping out of its grasp.
The problem is that Games Workshop's response was to shoot first and ask questions later. Its response was to use its bulk to destroy Chapterhouse Studios and send a message, but it didn't bother to think about its position.
Games Workshop is trying to argue that just because it thinks that something could exist within its fictional universe, it should have exclusive rights to it. Games Workshop is conflating the use to which customers will likely put the walker with the product itself. In making this type of argument, Games Workshop has created a potential legal issue that is interesting enough for a major law firm to get involved.
Just think about it for a minute. How do you say that you own something that you've never expressed in any way? Legally, Games Workshop is saying that the product is derivative, but derivative of what? There has to be an underlying copyright in order for there to be a derivative copyright. But what does Games Workshop claim as the underlying copyright? The Tau Crisis Suit, the Hammerhead, the Broadside, Gun Drones, the Piranha? What is it that has been morphed into the Chapterhouse walker? It's not really any one particular thing. It can't be. None of those things are individually much like the walker. So the underlying copyright has to be something even less tangible. What is it?
Games Workshop is arguing that it's an issue of style; a sort of look and feel argument. But what is that style? What aesthetic qualities of the Tau form an underlying copyright? Well, you don't have much. The Tau don't have a very unique aesthetic when compared to the rest of science fiction, particularly anime. The smooth lines, organic shapes, and geometric patterns are elements that have been borrowed from other sources, which is fine. But this also means that there's little to copyright. But there has to be something that makes the Tau aesthetically unique.
The Tau race is incredibly aesthetically unique when compared to the rest of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Within that universe, Tau vehicles, weapons, troops, and methods of warfare make the faction identifiably distinct from the others. The same is true for the Eldar, Orks, Daemons of Chaos, and the rest of them. So is this what Games Workshop is claiming as the underlying copyright; that within the context of the Warhammer 40,000 universe the Tau style is unique? This seems to be exactly what Games Workshop is arguing. It’s saying that if you put the Chapterhouse walker next to a bunch of Tau vehicles, it would sort of fit in, but if you put those models into a game of Warhammer 40,000, a player would assume that they all belong to the Tau.
The underlying copyright then is the Warhammer 40,000 fictional universe. This is perfectly clear from the complaint as Games Workshop talks about how the universe is represented in books, movies, video games, artwork, models, etc. and how all of this is a unique creation belonging to the company that is vital to its business. But what does that argument mean?
It means that if Games Workshop is right, anything that might relate to its models, games, or universe is a derivative copyright owned exclusively by Games Workshop, even if that relationship would only exist if the product is placed within the context of the universe after a purchase is made. This argument is frightening even in the sole context of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. What happens if you use Mantic Games Abyssal Dwarves in Warhammer Fantasy? You could. They would fit in well on the table top and in the context of a Warhammer game they would be identifiable as dwarves. What about a Privateer Press model? I have a whole platoon of agri world PDF troopers that I use in my Imperial Guard army that are made out of Victrix Napoleonic War models. And this is just models for use in the game. This legal interpretation extends beyond models.
It also extends beyond Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. Games Workshop’s claims have implications for the way copyrights are interpreted. Anyone could make the same sort of argument about a derivative copyright based on contextual comparison. This is a contentious legal position. Games Workshop created that position by suing Chapterhouse Studios and it has drawn the attention of Winston and Strawn.
The issue is not Chapterhouse Studios stealing its ideas from Games Workshop. The issue is Games Workshop claiming to own everything that could have a place in its hugely broad fictional universes even if it does not exist and has never been thought of before. That is a mind-boggling interpretation of copyright law. Clearly, Winston and Strawn believes that fighting this legal interpretation is in the interest of the public good.
addamsfamily36
02-06-2011, 12:24 PM
You are overblowing the situation dramatically. CHS is not making miniatures, they are making conversion parts that require GW miniatures. If your logic held then Mantic et al who produce fantasy 28mm scale miniatures would all be hurting GW. Fact is competition is only good for the industry AND Games Workshop, if it makes them lift their game.
If CHS wins this case, it says to GW that other companies can make conversion parts for their models, it does not give other companies the right to GWs entire IP.
I did state (unlikely) and it was more of a theoretical outcome.
CHS might not be making full miniatures, well except the eldar farseer on bike, but if they win the case whats to stop them?
As to providing conversion parts, there are some pieces of the GW site and on forgeworld. I agree the lack of choice and stock is frustrating. Scrapping being able to order any single metal part from GW was a huge blow to hobbyists. But they are slowly bringing items back whilst updating armies.
Competition is good. Copying and selling under the banner of GW hurts the companies reputation and devalues their Ip. I can't agree that thats a good thing.
Denzark
02-06-2011, 12:47 PM
The issue is not Chapterhouse Studios stealing its ideas from Games Workshop. The issue is Games Workshop claiming to own everything that could have a place in its hugely broad fictional universes even if it does not exist and has never been thought of before. That is a mind-boggling interpretation of copyright law. Clearly, Winston and Strawn believes that fighting this legal interpretation is in the interest of the public good.
Weeble this overall is the most empathic and common sense post you have made in 8 weeks with the exception of your last para. Don't try and make out W&S as some sort of moral crusaders.
The few lawyers that fight for the public good do pro bono against the death penalty, or giant oil companies torching rain forests, or Macdonalds or Camel for making cancer ridden obese monsters who can't control their own urges.
Winston and Strawn believe what most lawyers believe - that they may be able to make some money - the thing for which any normal lawyer would eat the content of their own jakes.
"Have you ever seen a lawyer apologise? I haven't and I don't suppose anyone else has. It must be like watching a snake eat its own vomit." Thomas, Lord Cochrane, to Lt Col Richard Sharpe, Sharpe's Devil, 1992.
Aldramelech
02-06-2011, 01:17 PM
Cancer ridden obese monsters who can't control their own urges.
Calling me names again? You can take my **** from my cold dead fingers..........................
Edit: The English word for Cigerettes is banned?
weeble1000
02-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Winston and Strawn believe what most lawyers believe - that they may be able to make some money - the thing for which any normal lawyer would eat the content of their own jakes.
I work very hard to take your posts seriously Denzark, but you are so far off base here that it is amazing. This isn't a class action suit. Chapterhouse Studios is not the plaintiff. It has no counter claims against Games Workshop. Even if it made counter claims, damages would top out in the barest of six figures, if they were upheld. Chapterhouse Studios would not be awarded attorney's fees unless it filed counter claims, won on them, and won on claims of willfulness. The money at stake in this case wouldn't tempt anything above an ambulance chaser begging for work.
Winston and Strawn could care less about money. This case is not about money to them. They are not trying to run up wild attorney's fees and collect a fat check. Winston and Strawn and Ms. Golinveaux probably have some self-interest in taking this case. It could be that the IP department is due for some pro-bono work, or maybe Ms. Golinveaux would like her name attached to an influential ruling, maybe somebody's son loves 40K, or maybe they think the case would be good experience. But in no way is this case about money to them.
Winston and Strawn can pick and chose what pro-bono work the firm does and when. Aside from any personal motivations, this case must present both interesting questions of law and successful prospects for it to have even been considered by Winston and Strawn. Approval for this thing had to go through committee review of some kind. It probably had to be recommended to the firm by reputable contacts in the legal field. Ms. Golinveaux had to sit down and read through all of the extant documents, discuss the matter with Chapterhouse, investigate the legal questions, and then decide if she wanted to submit the case for pro-bono approval, probably without knowing if she was going to get it.
These things are public record Denzark. This case is going to be inexorably attached to the name of Jennifer Golinvaux and Winston and Strawn forever. Neither the firm, nor Ms. Golinveaux are going to piss on their reputation by doing pro-bono work on a trashy case or for a disreputable client. If Winston and Strawn wants to make money, it can have Ms. Golinveaux bill hours in what must be an extensive book of business replete with affluent and often-sued clients like Google and Cisco Systems.
You can spout whatever you want to about this case and the parties involved. None of your vitriol changes the facts. Winston and Strawn agreed to take the case pro bono publico "for the public good." Ms. Golinveaux's time is worth far more than the value of this case. Going to trial is both extremely expensive and extremely risky for Games Workshop. Chapterhouse Studios is not constrained by money and going to trial involves comparatively little risk. Games Workshop must now settle out of court on Chapterhouse's terms or face an inevitable trial.
Denzark
02-06-2011, 02:56 PM
I work very hard to take your posts seriously Denzark,
I wouldn't bother if I were you, I won't be reciprocating and certainly won't lose sleep if you don't work all that hard
Chapterhouse Studios is not constrained by money and going to trial involves comparatively little risk. Games Workshop must now settle out of court on Chapterhouse's terms or face an inevitable trial.
For real? MUST they? And there's me saying I don't think this was a bluff, that they actually engaged lawyers to do something with them.
Anyway, lets not rehash old ground, the only thing you have of interest to say is to let me know when this happens:
OK how do I go about this..
I was not lying when I said Chapterhouse Studios has been expecting this to happen (but hoping it did not). GW has too much of a reputation for using its size and legal muscle to shut out any threat to the market they are in.
If this goes to trial, there will be a high cost involved in it that Chapterhouse Studios will likely be shouldering alone. If the outcome is favorable it can only add to the experience and hobby (or so I believe). Saying that, I would like to ask for donations to fund this defense. I hate asking for a handout so if we do come out of this in working order, I intend to give full credits in exchange for those donations given and I am keeping track.
weeble1000
02-06-2011, 05:35 PM
Games Workshop must either settle the case out of court or go to trial. It could drop the suit, but that's not going to happen. Short of dropping the suit, those are really the only two options for Games Workshop.
Chapterhouse Studios has the stronger position in settlement negotiations. If you disagree, explain why.
The longer that this thing drags out, the more expensive it gets for Games Workshop. Chapterhouse does not have that limitation. Games Workshop's most significant threat is going to trial. That was a realistic threat when Chapterhouse was struggling to find enough funds to afford a trial defense. Now that the pressure of money is gone, the only threat that remains is what might happen at trial. Frankly, the likely results of a jury trial favor Chapterhouse Studios.
At worst, Chapterhouse Studios will have to shut down its business and destroy the molds, but that's as unrealistic as a jury deciding that Games Workshop has no copyright protection whatsoever. Realistically, the worst that will happen is that there's some kind of equitable relief. Chapterhouse Studios might have to pull a few products, moderate trademark usage, or pay for a license. But even if Games Workshop wins in this regard, it is likely that its claimed copyrights will end up severely limited. This is a result that Chapterhouse Studios can probably live with but one that Games Workshop really doesn't want and can't afford. Thus, Chapterhouse Studios has the stronger negotiating position because it has less at risk in a jury trial.
Again, if you disagree with this interpretation, please explain why.
I'd also like you to explain what quoting Chapterhouse's request for donations has to do with this. I don't understand your point in quoting it. The fact that Chapterhouse has been lucky enough to find pro bono representation does not alter the legitimacy of an initial request for donations. It just means that those donations are much less important (Chapterhouse Studios is out of pocket for any legal expenses incurred prior to the involvement of Winston and Strawn). Anyone that donated would probably be glad that Chapterhouse found pro bono counsel since making sure that Chapterhouse Studios could afford to defend itself would have been the point of any donation.
If you are referring to the bit about a favorable outcome only adding to the experience of the hobby, and you mean that you want me to let you know when that happens, I'm assuming that your point would be that you don't think a favorable outcome for Chapterhouse would be good for the hobby. If that's what you meant, I will respectfully disagree and I will be happy to point it out to you when it happens.
eldargal
02-06-2011, 07:43 PM
I'm fully expecting some kind of out of court settlement too, I think it would suit both GW and CHS more than a full blown trial to the deff.:rolleyes:
CHS are still facing some legal fees, they explained this in Warseer, I wil ltry and find it. Here we go:
To answer the Donations question.
I have emailed all the donators and given them updates (in case they dont read the news somewhere else).
Unfortunately, according to the agreement with Winston & Strawn, we are largely responsible for any court cost, this could be a few hundred $ or a couple of thousand (or more).
We also had an attorney representing us before we found "pro-bono" help, those cost are in the thousands (and that was just for 2-3 weeks work).
So the donations will be used for that cost. Hope that answers questions.
weeble1000
02-11-2011, 04:16 PM
We'll have Chapterhouse's answer to Games Workshop's complaint by March 3rd.
This is quoted from the joint motion for an extension of time to answer and status hearing continuance that was filed on the 10th.
5. On January 28, 2011, the Court set the Initial Status Hearing in this case for
February 28, 2011. (Dkt. No. 9) Lead counsel for both Plaintiff and Chapterhouse have
scheduling conflicts on February 28, 2011. So that lead counsel may be present, and so that
Chapterhouse’s response to Plaintiff’s Complaint will be on file in advance of the Initial Status
Hearing, the parties respectfully request that the Initial Status Hearing be continued to March 14,
2011.
...
WHEREFORE, for the foregoing reasons, the parties respectfully request that
Chapterhouse be granted an extension of time until March 3, 2011, in which to answer or
otherwise plead in response to the Complaint in this matter. The parties further respectfully
request that the Initial Status Hearing be continued to March 14, 2011.
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