Why is Forge World perceived as scary?

[Brotherjames]

I'm not sure about you guys and gals but I always run into trouble trying to use my forgeworld mini's. The minute you ask a player if you can use a FW piece they instantly say no before looking at the rules. An example is today I played a 750 point game BA vs SM, I took a bare bones Reclusiarch, bare bones jump AS and tactical troops for my "big stick" I asked if I could use a landraider prometheus. And this was only after the fact my opponents hq was Calgar in termie armor and I'm the dick...

[Shyft]

for the most part, Forgeworld has a reputation for imbalanced content, and they're not often recognized as 'tournament legal'. There's more to it than that, but you get the idea.

Example: There was recently a new Eldar model/unit that was effectively Jump-Troops with Brightlances. This is basically "I kill every tank forever." Your Mileage may vary.

Basically people believe it better to just outright ban FW rules than work with them on a case by case basis.

[Brotherjames]

Yea I understand that for the most part tourney and otherwise but I look at it like say an expansion for a computer game and you didn't even try the new stuff it had to offer just played with the same old stuff

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Example: There was recently a new Eldar model/unit that was effectively Jump-Troops with Brightlances. This is basically "I kill every tank forever." Your Mileage may vary.

The problem is people don't read the rules. Case in point: the troops you're talking about are Jetpack troops (only move 6 inches in movement phase), don't have brightlances (have combining prism cannons which can put out one reliable anti-tank shot from the entire squad), and cost 203 points for a decent squad. They're largely inferior to the Eldar's existing anti-tank choices. People pick up misconceptions about units (they can't read every codex/imp. armour book ever), and it takes a little effort to dispel those misconceptions.

I guess I'd recommend bugging your opponents more to read the rules. Eventually their aversion to reading less than a paragraph will give way to their desire to actually play the damn game.

[Mr.Pickelz]

i get the same reaction when trying to proxiy the FW grey knight land-raider Redeemer.
imo, the FW stuff seems to be somewhat balanced with it self more, then with the "Normal" 40k line up.

on that note, no one likes Initiative 10 Grand Master with terminator retinue that has frag grenades. :cool:

[isotope99]

I think one of the main problems is that the Imperial armour books are so expensive that very few people buy them (I've never shelled out for the full book only the little apocalypse add on).

I know some of the draft rules are on the website but that can be difficult to find unless you have the budget to be shopping for Forge World goodies.

[Gotthammer]

It's also that some of the first books (IA1&2) had some really funky rules pre-Apocalypse and there were a couple of really broken things, namely the assaulting dreads out of drop pods and the Dreadclaw, that have left a 'stain' on the brand.
Which is a shame because most of the newer stuff is ok IMO.

The lack of rules availability doesn't help, but every GW in Australia is now stocking the IA series, so that'll help.

[SotonShades]

yeh a lot of the original FW rules from IA 1 & 2 were really badly written and exceptionally unbalanced. Anyone who thinks flyers are hard to kill now should have seen the old set! On top of this, they were often exceedingly complex (such as moving flyers in the opponants turn!) and often tended to slow the game down so much it almost became unplayable. FW are even more a model making company than GW and the rules were very much an after thought.

The mnodern FW rules are much more thoroughly playtested. For the last 5 years or so there has been a dedicated team of people just writing a play testing at FW (although they also have a hand in writing the fluff). The thing about the books is that they have always been and will always be (with the exception of the Apoc books) more about the fluff and background of races/campaigns and really trying to capture the feel of those aspects rather than striving for balance. If you actually play these camaigns, the units and characters fit quite nicely together and form some interesting alternatives to normal 40k. Play them in normal 40k and they can screw things around a bit.

FW have actually started over costing a lot of things (more tanks than anything) to try and mitigate their reputation as being overly powerful. That said, they still have awesome rules because most people who spend that much money oon a model want to to be a center-piece model for their army, both in how it looks and how it plays.

[Fellend]

While it may be so, I think it's fair to call them just a "model making company" (well obviously they are but) I think they produce some great and exciting stuff, some rules that break the trends, open up new uses for bad units and creates new and interesting content.

Introducing new things is always a shoot and miss sort of thing. Things have to get adjusted to the game, if they had been smart they would send out the test rules in advance using the White Dwarf and then adjusting them according to feedback, but GW isn't exactly a company that listens to it's customers

[Defenestratus]

Example: There was recently a new Eldar model/unit that was effectively Jump-Troops with Brightlances. This is basically "I kill every tank forever." Your Mileage may vary.


Really? Did you even read the rules?

Here they are in case you missed them.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/shadow-spectres.pdf

I think what you're thinking about, are scourges from the new DE book. Which decidedly aren't FW :P

[Marcus Iago Geruasius]

I think the issue here is about purchasing power. Becuase WH40K is really all about buying the latest and greatest model that will defeat your opponent, many feel that FW is just going to far... it is essentially a bit of class warfare. If I am a middle class kid and only get a few models a year, my 2000 pt army is going to be pretty vanilla. However if the kid living on the golf course has a trust fund or parents that buy his love, he is going to have titans.

So the general consesus is just becuase you can afford something that I cant, doesn't mean I am going to play with you.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, the Shadow Specters are absurdly overpriced. Most Forgeworld stuff isn't particularly powerful, and even when it is it's nothing on the level of Mephiston or Thunderwolf Cavalry or other things that people like to cry about.

[Warp]

I think the issue here is about purchasing power. Becuase WH40K is really all about buying the latest and greatest model that will defeat your opponent, many feel that FW is just going to far... it is essentially a bit of class warfare. If I am a middle class kid and only get a few models a year, my 2000 pt army is going to be pretty vanilla. However if the kid living on the golf course has a trust fund or parents that buy his love, he is going to have titans.

So the general consesus is just becuase you can afford something that I cant, doesn't mean I am going to play with you.

There's a difference between Titans and other Super-heavies that are only really allowed in Apocalypse and things such as the Land Raider Achilles that - while perceived as broken - is only just an extension to the regular 40K stuff.

In the end, I think it's about the perception that exists on FW (as already mentioned) and the fact that many won't know the rules and as such are turned off by facing something they have no clue what will do. I hate being in a game and someone going "oh, this unit does a/b/c". It helps to read other Codex'es off course, but when it comes to FW not everyone is going to keep themselves up to speed. And really, for a regular 40K game, I don't think anyone should expect it either.

[Xas]

I think the issue here is about purchasing power. Becuase WH40K is really all about buying the latest and greatest model that will defeat your opponent, many feel that FW is just going to far... it is essentially a bit of class warfare. If I am a middle class kid and only get a few models a year, my 2000 pt army is going to be pretty vanilla. However if the kid living on the golf course has a trust fund or parents that buy his love, he is going to have titans.

So the general consesus is just becuase you can afford something that I cant, doesn't mean I am going to play with you.


this post sums it up quite nicely:

most people are just envious that you can afford such expensive models/books and they cannot.

Some experimental rules can be off-balance but the published ones usually are fair. So far only the dread-assoult-droppod is the only thing I consider imballanced simply because it combines deepstriking into assoult with no risk and no effort (vanguards can do it, pay more for their jumppacks than the dread for the pod AND have the hassle to need a locator beacon for secure deployment which also costs points in the upgrade and the unit carrying it).

people who complain about the archilles should realice that there is more antitank in 40k than meltaguns/lances and that it is a 300pts vehicle that will only shoot around with a 100pts gun for the whole game cause its transport ability is so small that it isnt a multi-purpose vehicle like all the other landraider anymore.


to solve your problems you have to do the same thing everyone in every situation has to do when dealing with class-conflicts. either you adapt to the lowest existing class's style (meaning no FW for you) or you stick to your own class and have fun with your expensive toys.

Accepting strange rules is easier for people when they have the budged to go and buy a bunch of them themselves if they feel like it. Once you have some people accepting those models as "normal" it is quite easy to just roll-over those who are thinking otherwise.

Just stop asking. If your oponent asks what that model is, you are putting up (or whenr eading your list if it is common to swap lists in your area) explain them the rules and be shure to have the written rules ready to hand them over if they want to read it for themselves (there are many people who understand something easier when reading than hearing!). If people then complain and state that FW isnt tourney legal just let that person stand alone, grab one of your other rich FW-buddies and play a game with him instead.


Basically you ahve to do the same thing GW did with the special cahrackters. from one codex to the next suddenly they weren "ask your oponent" but simply a damn normal thing in the army list. you'll be surprised how much the perception of people changes if your own approach changes.

[Vaktathi]

The cost thing is sort of absurd. It applies just as much to non-FW stuff. Will you refuse to play a Mech IG army with your Necrons because its more powerful but also cost 4x as much to build? Will you refuse to play against a unit of Hive Guard because they are $20/model for 50pts each, or a Thunderfire Cannon that's $50 for a 100pt model?

Making a bog standard Cadian mechanized IG army with only standard plastic kits will likely still be at least as expensive as making a Space Marine army of all FW Mark III Iron Armor kits or the like.

Hell, FW Chaos Dreads aren't much more expensive than the GW Metal ones, I got mine for *cheaper* actually when the exchange rate was less than $1.4-1GBP, now they are roughly the same cost. The new Eldar Warp Hunter tank is what, less than 5GBP more than a Fire Prism? Not much of a cost difference.



The books may be *somewhat* of an issue, but the majority of FW's rules are also available for free online as PDF's on the FW website.



Most of FW's rules historically, for stuff that they intend for normal games, have been intentionally *overcosted*. Look at the old rules for the Hydra, 200pts and no cover save ignoring ability and no squadrons of them. Most of FW's rules now are somewhat balanced for the most part without being overcosted, but there have been a few units recently that they just putzed hardcore. The Lucius Drop Pod, the Caestus Assault Ram, and the Land Raider Achilles. These are units I would not like to play against, and that FW genuinely dropped the ball on. However it is difficult to condemn all FW stuff on these three units alone.

[DarkLink]

Bingo. Anyone who thinks FW stuff is broken isn't paying attention. And even the dreaded Achilles isn't really all that scary. It lacks the transport capacity to deliver anything truly threatening into combat, and while it is durable it is still less so than a monolith, while being significantly more expensive than either a monolith or a normal Land Raider. Most armies either have the means to deal with it, or can ignore it an kill the rest of the army. Basically, it's just a mobile, durable thunderfire cannon that you can put a combat squad in. Good unit? Sure. Not broken, though.

[Brotherjames]

Yea the rich/poor kid analogy though can somewhat be true isn't the case here. By no means am I rich lol I'm 27 with a full time job, 2 kids, and a snowboarding habit! I just know what I like in models and yes FW can be expensive but what hobby isn't if you want full enjoyment. Also I'm a pretty open casual player I always share my "toys" when asked so others can proxy or just see what the book is about.

[SotonShades]

While it may be so, I think it's fair to call them just a "model making company" (well obviously they are but) I think they produce some great and exciting stuff, some rules that break the trends, open up new uses for bad units and creates new and interesting content.

Introducing new things is always a shoot and miss sort of thing. Things have to get adjusted to the game, if they had been smart they would send out the test rules in advance using the White Dwarf and then adjusting them according to feedback, but GW isn't exactly a company that listens to it's customers

Ooops, yeh I did mean to have that first paragraph in the past tense there. FW do put a significant amount of rules out via their website and email Newsletter. The problem with putting all the rules out for public play test would be that people would just use those instead of buying the nice shiney books.

[wittdooley]

I'm sorry. With the number of people that cut up 2-3 $60 models to make a StormRaven before the official model was released I refuse to buy this price excuse.

I think it's fine if people don't want you to use FW rules in tournies, etc. Thats all kosher by my standards. However, if the people in your gaming group won't let you use them, I'd say it's time to find a new gaming group.

[steelmage99]

I don't play against FW units.

The overcosted "nice" units aren't the ones people want to use in my experience.
They want to use the broken-***, we-smoked-weed-while-writing-this, excessive units. And they don't want to use just one....

Whenever anybody asks me whether they can use a FW unit, the answer is an almost automatic "no", and make no mistake, they do have to ask my permission.
My reasoning hasn't got anything to do with "rich kid/poor kid", price tag or the availability of the rule-set. I simply cannot be bothered.
Just like I very rarely, if ever, play Cities of Death, Planetstrike or Spearhead, so I very rarely, if ever, play Imperial Armour.

To people like wittdooley and Xas, with messages along the lines of "Find another group to play with" and "Refuse to play people who refuse to use FW", there is only the simple answer of "Goodbye. You won't be missed".

PS. I have read (and reread several times) every single Imperial Armour book. They are standing on my shelf right now.
I buy them for the fluff and as a source of inspiration for narrative campaigns.

[Vaktathi]

I don't play against FW units.

The overcosted "nice" units aren't the ones people want to use in my experience.
They want to use the broken-***, we-smoked-weed-while-writing-this, excessive units. And they don't want to use just one....

Whenever anybody asks me whether they can use a FW unit, the answer is an almost automatic "no", and make no mistake, they do have to ask my permission.
My reasoning hasn't got anything to do with "rich kid/poor kid", price tag or the availability of the rule-set. I simply cannot be bothered.
Just like I very rarely, if ever, play Cities of Death, Planetstrike or Spearhead, so I very rarely, if ever, play Imperial Armour.

To people like wittdooley and Xas, with messages along the lines of "Find another group to play with" and "Refuse to play people who refuse to use FW", there is only the simple answer of "Goodbye. You won't be missed".

PS. I have read (and reread several times) every single Imperial Armour book. They are standing on my shelf right now.
I buy them for the fluff and as a source of inspiration for narrative campaigns.


What's so "broken" besides the Caestus, Achilles and Lucius? If you have so many of the books, you should know that there's really very little that's all that abuseable (especially relative to the stuff that's been coming out of GW proper lately), especially the IA1,2 and 5 stuff that's gone through updates and comprises the majority of FW's offerings.

Declaring FW to be an "automatic no" for you, along with the very bitter & declarative tone of that post, says a lot more about you than about FW stuff or players that wish to use it, and not anything that would encourage most people to want to play with you, whether it involved FW stuff or not.

Permission likewise extends to anything. You need just as much "permission" to field Tac Marines, Abaddon, Trygons, or Vypers as a Leman Russ Annihilator, Tauros, or a Repressor.

[Lockark]

In my experience there is only 1 unit in all the Forge world books I consider "broken". That unit is the Dreadnought drop pod. specifically it's a drop drop that dreads can ASSAULT OUT OF.

O______o

The only other unit I can think of that comes close to that is the Autocannon Turret Chimeras. (A 5 point upgrade seems abit to cheap to me. I haven't played ageist them thow so I'm still reserving judgment.)


About everything eals in thows books are reasonable. Heck, even the army lists they make aren't that big a deal. Alot of them are stupid under powered, even the dreaded armored company isn't that big a deal.

[Vaktathi]

The autocannon turret thing isn't honestly that scary The multilaser is actually better against anything that's T6or less with a 2+/3+/5+ or 6+ save, 4+sv infantry in cover, and identical against T7 units. The Multilaser is also better against AV10 units and almost as good against AV11 units. The Autocannon is only better against 4+sv stuff in the open, and AV12 stuff. For a nearly 10% increase in cost, and a net decrease in anti-infantry firepower and only really gaining against AV12 and an extra 12" range (on something that can already basically reach across the board once deployed), it's not as spectacular an option as many think. Taking them on all your chimeras will generally not only reduce your anti-infantry firepower output, but also will generally mean taking one less chimera due to the cost increase, which I'm sure most opponents would be happy with after all is said and done.

[Gir]

I think the issue here is about purchasing power. Becuase WH40K is really all about buying the latest and greatest model that will defeat your opponent, many feel that FW is just going to far... it is essentially a bit of class warfare. If I am a middle class kid and only get a few models a year, my 2000 pt army is going to be pretty vanilla. However if the kid living on the golf course has a trust fund or parents that buy his love, he is going to have titans.

So the general consesus is just becuase you can afford something that I cant, doesn't mean I am going to play with you.

It's the oppostie in Australia. Forgeworld is more affordable then standard plastic kits.

I personally don't care if people use non-flyer, non-superheavies in games, adds more varitiy and makes the game more interesting.

[Lockark]

The autocannon turret thing isn't honestly that scary The multilaser is actually better against anything that's T6or less with a 2+/3+/5+ or 6+ save, 4+sv infantry in cover, and identical against T7 units. The Multilaser is also better against AV10 units and almost as good against AV11 units. The Autocannon is only better against 4+sv stuff in the open, and AV12 stuff. For a nearly 10% increase in cost, and a net decrease in anti-infantry firepower and only really gaining against AV12 and an extra 12" range (on something that can already basically reach across the board once deployed), it's not as spectacular an option as many think. Taking them on all your chimeras will generally not only reduce your anti-infantry firepower output, but also will generally mean taking one less chimera due to the cost increase, which I'm sure most opponents would be happy with after all is said and done.

It's not the fact it's a Autocannon.

It's the fact that it's a cheap way for imperial guard to get EVEN MORE AUTOCANNONS.
o.o

(Just pay a extra 5 points on that handful of chimeras you were going to take anyway and your set.)

If you ever faced a Massed Autocannon IG list, you will understand what I'm talking about. As you even said, the autocannon is better then the mutilaser ageist AV12, and most transports are AV12. As long as the Imperial Guard player can stun or immobilize your transports forcing you to foot slog to his lines, he will have a much easier time dealing with your army.

I'm not calling the Autocannon chimera broken thow. I need a few games ageist a local IG player who is going to start using them, before I make the call. But it's a awfully scary prospect. (But not broken by a long shot.)

[Vaktathi]

I've got two mech IG armies actually, and precisely because autocannons are so readily available elsewhere is why I don't put them on the chimeras. increasing their cost by almost 10% to do something that I already have no trouble doing, while dropping my effective anti-infantry firepower and having to make room for those points, is why I don't think the 5pt AC upgrade is really all that scary, and why I haven't used the 7 Chimera AC turrets I own except for a couple apoc games (6 of them still aren't even assembled after 2 years :p). I'm not saying it's a *BAD* option by any means, I think it's an option that's rather fairly priced, but it's certainly not the no-brainer option that it's often portrayed as sometimes.

For dealing with Raiders, Land Speeders, Trukk's, etc the ML works better than the AC, *especially* if it's ML/HB.:D

Against Rhino's, the AC is better, but only *very* slightly.

Against other Chimeras, Wave Serpents, and Devilfish yes the AC is markedly better, but I've already got Vendettas, Hydras, infantry autocannons, meltaguns,plasma guns etc to take care of those.

The addition of Chimera based AC's at the cost of a chimera (or wargear/upgrades equivalent to that) and the corresponding loss of 7-11 S6 shots per turn makes that upgrade seem not quite so amazingly awesome as many make it out to be. Also, at 3 shots instead of 2, the ML equalizes BS3 better, ensuring a more stable average of hits against enemy units.

On paper yeah it looks scary, but in all honesty IG are already floating in anti-AV12 options, the marginal benefit that the Chimera AC option adds is really just unnecessary *unless* you are building the entire army around it, in which case it's really not going to be any better than if you'd just gone the original route.

One may see that it's "just 5pts", but that's basically increasing the cost of a Chimera by 10% (which adds up and will likely make a real difference given that over the course of an army it means one less unit probably) just to act as a better AV12 transport hunter (and being mediocre at best at it, on what is otherwise a rather anti-infantry specific platform), which doesn't really synergize well with the rest of the Chimeras potential armament & options that is heavily geared towards engaging infantry.

Hence why 6 of my 7 Chimera AC turrets are still in their FW baggies :p

[Soul hunter]

The forge world models give more variation to the game otherwise it would sit with all my finished computer games...
In the intro to the first I.A. book they say that the models are a little overpriced in points.
So why not go out and experiment with the game... Either that or let it stagnate.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

To anyone that refuses to play against FW models - MAN UP! Stop being such a whingy little dweeb. None of the Forgeworld stuff is that overpowered IMO, and given a few tweaks to your army list they're perfectly possible to take down, even in the case of my ten wounds Scabieathrax! FW provide excellent models for use in all 40K related games - I would certainly pre-warn my opponent that I wanted to use such a model to allow them to build an army list accordingly, but if they're gonna be whiny, find someone else to play.

There are very expensive models produced by FW, but also ones of a more approachable price too - they should indeed be seen as providing centrepieces for your armies, so ask relatives to club together to get one for you as a gift at Xmas or birthdays, or (woe betide!) save up your pocket money, just like poorer people used to do before getting into hideous amounts of debt! My FW stuff is the huge Nurgle GUO (bought by parents and siblings as a birthday gift) and the Space Wolves dreadnought, which I bought for myself. Seriously hoping for Dark Eldar stuff one day, but hoping they will produce the Thunderwolf Cavalry for IA11!!!

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Its funny that at my Local store, hardly anyone has FW products, whether that's because they can't afford it, don't like it, or just don't know about it. Our store doesn't buy any of the Imperial Armour books.
I think possibly i'm the only one of nearly 20 players that owns FW products.

Personnally i buy parts mostly but have also bought units, vehicles and such, as yet i haven't taken them down to play against others, due to lack of time...soon to be changing.
But, i would always tell my opponent that i plan to use them, produce a photo copy of them and let them read the rules. If they don't like it, well im not going to stomp around and cry, but i would ask them to seriously tell me their reasons so i know.

If its the misconception all FW is to scary, i would point it out that it is far from such and show them. And in other battles i wouldn't cry or say NO to anyone wanting to play FW against me as long as i knew i could dispose of such unit/vehicle. Ofcouse i would find it hard to kill off a titan with my SoB army.

[Drew da Destroya]

In my experience there is only 1 unit in all the Forge world books I consider "broken". That unit is the Dreadnought drop pod. specifically it's a drop drop that dreads can ASSAULT OUT OF.


You've heard of the Storm Raven, right?

It's a Blood Angel's skimmer that can move 12", drop off the dread, and the dread can then assault. With Blood Talons, which provide the potential for infinite attacks.

At least a Drop Pod can scatter.

[DarkLink]

Exactly. There's no forgeworld unit so broken that it approaches some units in the normal codices. Not that Storm Ravens are broken, but whatever.

[HsojVvad]

For someone like me, all I know about Forge World, is 1) that it's not GW legal. By that, GW even says not anyone can show up and use it out of the blue without permission.2) What I know, it's over powered, some units are over costed, other units are undercosted.

Another thing that bothers me about this, is IF all you people are up in arms about not letting anyone use FW, why not bring some stuff for your opponent to use as well then? If you can't ahead of time warn or ask permission about what you want to use, then you should bring FW stuff for your opponent to use as well.

Also, if someone wants to use FW and he wins big because of his FW stuff, then it should be an automatic Loss for him because, YES it was unfair battle.

Another point, all I know, someone asks to use FW stuff, all I know is he is using flyers or planes or what ever they are called and in most cases non FW stuff can't handle it. Also what if someone brings in a Hellhound or what ever those giant robots are called? How can anyone using a non FW book go up agaisnt it? How is that fair?

[Renegade]

So some dude says he has a Death Korps list. You can get the rules from them downloadable from FW. You going to turn him away? You can down load the rules for Krieg from FW, there is no excuse not to have read or seen them.

[Archon Charybdis]

The overcosted "nice" units aren't the ones people want to use in my experience.
They want to use the broken-***, we-smoked-weed-while-writing-this, excessive units. And they don't want to use just one....

Agreed. That said, I'm of the opinion there's really only 3 units like that (the Lucius, the Caestus, and the Achilles). However, I think part of the reason people are gun shy about FW is the fact that when something crazy does slip under the radar people always want to take it in droves and it leaves non-FW users with a bad taste in their mouth. Realistically though, if you know the person you're playing against and you're familiar with the rules, there's no reason to categorically refuse to play FW stuff.


To anyone that refuses to play against FW models - MAN UP! Stop being such a whingy little dweeb.

Your argument is as tactful as it is scholarly. Seriously? Anyone who doesn't want to use your extraneous rules material is a whiny, girly dweeb? They couldn't possibly be unfamiliar with the material, or uninterested in adding additional complexity? No? They're dweebs? That's perfectly reasonable.


You've heard of the Storm Raven, right?

I'm not disagreeing that the Stormraven is pretty stupid, but I'd argue the Lucius is just as bad if not worse. The Stormraven may be a transport that a Dreadnought can assault out of, but it doesn't allow it to do so nigh-infallibly on turn one, without any chance of being of shot up first. The Stormraven at least is going to require a turn to get in to place (barring some very silly turn 1 moves by the opponent). The Stormraven also costs at least 4 times as much and takes a HS slot. While, it's certainly worth every point, it's still an opportunity cost over the Lucius.

[Lockark]

I've got two mech IG armies actually, and precisely because autocannons are so readily available elsewhere is why I don't put them on the chimeras. increasing their cost by almost 10% to do something that I already have no trouble doing, while dropping my effective anti-infantry firepower and having to make room for those points, is why I don't think the 5pt AC upgrade is really all that scary, and why I haven't used the 7 Chimera AC turrets I own except for a couple apoc games (6 of them still aren't even assembled after 2 years :p). I'm not saying it's a *BAD* option by any means, I think it's an option that's rather fairly priced, but it's certainly not the no-brainer option that it's often portrayed as sometimes.

For dealing with Raiders, Land Speeders, Trukk's, etc the ML works better than the AC, *especially* if it's ML/HB.:D

Against Rhino's, the AC is better, but only *very* slightly.

Against other Chimeras, Wave Serpents, and Devilfish yes the AC is markedly better, but I've already got Vendettas, Hydras, infantry autocannons, meltaguns,plasma guns etc to take care of those.

The addition of Chimera based AC's at the cost of a chimera (or wargear/upgrades equivalent to that) and the corresponding loss of 7-11 S6 shots per turn makes that upgrade seem not quite so amazingly awesome as many make it out to be. Also, at 3 shots instead of 2, the ML equalizes BS3 better, ensuring a more stable average of hits against enemy units.

On paper yeah it looks scary, but in all honesty IG are already floating in anti-AV12 options, the marginal benefit that the Chimera AC option adds is really just unnecessary *unless* you are building the entire army around it, in which case it's really not going to be any better than if you'd just gone the original route.

One may see that it's "just 5pts", but that's basically increasing the cost of a Chimera by 10% (which adds up and will likely make a real difference given that over the course of an army it means one less unit probably) just to act as a better AV12 transport hunter (and being mediocre at best at it, on what is otherwise a rather anti-infantry specific platform), which doesn't really synergize well with the rest of the Chimeras potential armament & options that is heavily geared towards engaging infantry.

Hence why 6 of my 7 Chimera AC turrets are still in their FW baggies :p


The idea in the autocannon list I'm talking about your not going to have Vendettas. Instead you take even more autocannons. If you don't have at least 27 Autocannons your not playing the autocannon spam list. And even then, counting on your point limit you should try and get more.

In that style list you have so many Autocannons that the mutilaser dosen't realy give you anything your truck load of autocannons dosen't already do. lol In fact haveing that many autocannons is both effective Anti infantry and Anti-transport.

The only use for chimerias in the auto cannon spam list is to protect some meltagun command squads, and give hydras cover saves. (That and hull heavy Flamers to counter-charge things that make it to your line.)

for 5 extra points per chimeria you were going to take anyway, that style list squeeze EVEN MORE autocannons out of the list. With that many autocannons they are both effective anti-tank and anti-infantry.


=)


In all honesty I think it's more telling the fact even thow I think the Autocannon Chimera is amazing, I'm planing on facing a Guard player using them. Despite the fact his autocannon spam list is prety scary to begin with.

[The West Coast Knight]

OK
I own 5 Forge World complete armies and tons of Models for added flavor for my other armies.
One very important thing everyone is missing especially tournament organizers is the fact that all the IA books in the last 4 years have a special thing on the front cover" WARHAMMER 40000 EXPANSION"
Just like a Codex and Planetstrike and COD it is official and sanction by Games Workshop!
So for those of you that say stupid things like" I wont play against i"t and " It is all over powered" need to understand
Forgeworld is not just some little company that makes stuff to use in Apocalypse anymore they are part Games Workshop and what they produce is official and legal for use in the games it is designed for.
It makes as much sense as someone saying you can not use metal models in our game I will only play against plastics.
And yes I understand fully that in the old days of IA 1 and IA 2 it made sense to say no FW in a tournament because some cheese head would try and put a Baneblade in his 1500 point army but that can not happen anymore because of Apocalypse and FW is very good with the writing of rules now and saying this model is for Apoc and this can be used in a standard force.

That's my 2 cents

[steelmage99]

What's so "broken" besides the Caestus, Achilles and Lucius? If you have so many of the books, you should know that there's really very little that's all that abuseable (especially relative to the stuff that's been coming out of GW proper lately), especially the IA1,2 and 5 stuff that's gone through updates and comprises the majority of FW's offerings.

Oh, I do and I addressed this very thing in my post. You must have missed it by accident.
In summary, in my experience the units you mention as broken are the ones that most people want to field (multiples of). The vast majority of the FW units are seen as "Meh" and not taken. To that list I would also like to add the Death Storm Pods and the seemingly minor "5 point to upgrade multi-laser to autocannon" bit.

Of course, this is very much tempered by my experiences with FW and the people who want to play their units.


Declaring FW to be an "automatic no" for you, along with the very bitter & declarative tone of that post, says a lot more about you than about FW stuff or players that wish to use it, and not anything that would encourage most people to want to play with you, whether it involved FW stuff or not.

I did say that it was an almost automatic "no". Whatever you feel that my tone conveys or whether you want to play me or not has little relevance to me.
But while we are at it, why don't you tell me what you feel it tells you about me. I am genuinely curious.
I promise that my only response will be "thank you".


Permission likewise extends to anything. You need just as much "permission" to field Tac Marines, Abaddon, Trygons, or Vypers as a Leman Russ Annihilator, Tauros, or a Repressor.

No, Imperial Armour is an expansion just like Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Spearhead and Apocalypse.
The last time FW addressed the issue of legality in their books (I believe it was in IA5 but not sure) they clarified just that. IA is an expansion to 40K.
Every book after that has carried the "Expansion" mark on the front page.

This means that you have to agree to play the expansion with your opponent.
You don't expect it to be ok to simply use special units and rules from any of the other expansions in normal 40K, do you?
That is the same as asking for his permission.

[steelmage99]

OK
One very important thing everyone is missing especially tournament organizers is the fact that all the IA books in the last 4 years have a special thing on the front cover" WARHAMMER 40000 EXPANSION"
Just like a Codex and Planetstrike and COD it is official and sanction by Games Workshop!


I must certainly haven't missed that.

Imperial Armour is just as official as Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Spearhead and Apocalypse.
Do you play any of those without coordinating it with your opponent?
Can you take units from Apocalypse, Stratagems from CoD and some of the opening strikes from Planetstrike, and just throw them into a normal game of 40K?

[armbarred]

Actually, looking at a copy IA 8, I don't see where it says I need permission at all. There is a passage about needing other materials to play the scenarios given in the campaign but nothing "you need permission to play" Even going as far back as IA 1... "as far as I and the rest of the 40k design team were concerned, then they were legitimate rules and could be used in any game of 40k." - taken from Jervis' intro...

That is enough for me, and the over whelming majority of my gaming group. Ignoring that is like choosing to not play an opponent because you don't like the codex they are playing.

[Lockark]

The Achilles isn't unstoppable, as long as both sides are using there forge world toys/ready to play with the forgeworld expansions.


It is a fair point that Imperial Armour are expansions, that both players need to be willing to use. Mostly because they can drastically change the meta-game. (A army built for regular 40k, may not fair well in imperial Armour 40k.)


It the same way Cities of death maps, Planet Strike, and apoc can drastically change the meta-game. Your regular 40k army may not fair well in any of thows expansions.

[wittdooley]

For someone like me, all I know about Forge World, is 1) that it's not GW legal. By that, GW even says not anyone can show up and use it out of the blue without permission.2) What I know, it's over powered, some units are over costed, other units are undercosted.

Another thing that bothers me about this, is IF all you people are up in arms about not letting anyone use FW, why not bring some stuff for your opponent to use as well then? If you can't ahead of time warn or ask permission about what you want to use, then you should bring FW stuff for your opponent to use as well.

Also, if someone wants to use FW and he wins big because of his FW stuff, then it should be an automatic Loss for him because, YES it was unfair battle.

Another point, all I know, someone asks to use FW stuff, all I know is he is using flyers or planes or what ever they are called and in most cases non FW stuff can't handle it. Also what if someone brings in a Hellhound or what ever those giant robots are called? How can anyone using a non FW book go up agaisnt it? How is that fair?

Your posts rarely make sense to me and this is no exception. Kudos to that.

So... If I have an FW model and I want to play it, I should have another FW for my opponent to use?

So... If someone AGREES to my FW model in play, then loses, then the loss actually goes to me because it was an unfair battle?

Interesting.

It's funny. I thought this hobby/game was about having fun. I guess for not everyone it is. It's actually pretty fun using your army against an enemy titan. He may kick your ***, but the first time you roll a 12 with a rocket launcher shot and it causes a chain reaction that nukes the Titan... well, that's fun.

[Porty1119]

I own one FW model, a Vulture for my Airborne IG. I run it with 4 rocket pods against my frequent tyranid opponent, and swap two out for a TL missile launcher against others. The thing is just an upgunned Valkyrie with no transport capacity. No special rules, it's just an airborne gun platform. My FLGS allows FW if you bring the written rules (yay :D), and the Vulture is fairly non-objectionable.

Overall, most of the FW stuff is fairly sane. I'm talking about Leman Russ variants, some of the new Eldar models, and almost anything non-flyer or super heavy. The few bad rulesets give the great rules and models a bad rap, and it hurts the hobby. Stagnation is bad, and FW mixes up the pot a bit. I always like to see something different across the table, even if its just for flavor. FW is like the icing on a slightly unbalanced cake. It can bring it down, but there's not too much of it.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

I find this hilarious that people call the Achillies cheesy, and won't play against it, yet are very happy to ablige you with one or more titans.
I told a friend i wanted one at my local store, and he plays yes two warhoound titans in nearly every Apoc game, and he was calling me a cheat or cheesy for wanting a Achillies. Then again he complains with Faith rules for my SoB.
There is jutice for you.

[steelmage99]

I find this hilarious that people call the Achillies cheesy, and won't play against it, yet are very happy to ablige you with one or more titans.

The above is known as "jumping to conclusions", "straw man argumentation" and "making **** up".
In short, it is worthless.


I told a friend i wanted one at my local store, and he plays yes two warhoound titans in nearly every Apoc game, and he was calling me a cheat or cheesy for wanting a Achillies.

You do know that Warhound Titans are perfectly legal in Apocalypse, right? It is actually THE setting for the use of Titans.
Do you want an Achillies in a normal game of 40K? Because then, yes, you are cheesy and trying to circumvent the rules and any kind of social agreement.



Then again he complains with Faith rules for my SoB.

Yeah, that's lame. It is probably because he doesn't understand them, but maybe is he just a whiner. :)

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Your argument is as tactful as it is scholarly. Seriously? Anyone who doesn't want to use your extraneous rules material is a whiny, girly dweeb? They couldn't possibly be unfamiliar with the material, or uninterested in adding additional complexity? No? They're dweebs? That's perfectly reasonable..

Gosh, so sorry, I didn't realise I was duty bound to post up anything particularly verbose. Then perhaps 'Courage man! If you quail at facing the unknown, perhaps you are a craven cur, not fit for commanding the forces in your possession!'... What is more scholarly? Writing words which can be understood by all or words that may not?

As for being unfamiliar with rules, I don't know anyone that knows all the rules to all 40K armies, so what difference does it make? Ok, if you're using a Titan or something huge, such as a Squiggoth or Scabieathrax etc, then it should be a pre-arranged game. But frankly, if your army doesn't have the capability to counter vehicles, 'shooty' troops and assault troops, then you need to get back to your army list and do it properly. Besides, they have exaggerated points values to ensure that an opponent can include enough choices to counter it. It is down to the skills of the general, not anything overpowered in terms of FW rules. So I say yes, those who want to get whiny about FW units really ought to question what they are in the hobby for. If one wanst to beat people every time one plays, maybe they should play their younger siblings...

[Xas]

If you can't ahead of time warn or ask permission about what you want to use, then you should bring FW stuff for your opponent to use as well.

Also, if someone wants to use FW and he wins big because of his FW stuff, then it should be an automatic Loss for him because, YES it was unfair battle.

Also what if someone brings in a Hellhound or what ever those giant robots are called? How can anyone using a non FW book go up agaisnt it? How is that fair?


Cool, so next time I play against marines I will just assume my oponent brings a landraider for me as well. Or wait actually you have to extend that argument to the rest of 40k as well. So you are one of those players that go like "Hey, wanna play? - Shure, if you buy me an army!" and are usually flogged out of our store...

In your case it is an unfair battle the moment your oponent opens his codex and knows before the game what the units in the army lists can do! Yes, what do you do if your oponent brings in a HELLHOUND (a unit in codex: Imperial Guard since basically the beginning of time).

Those giant robots are called titans and are as "legal" as takeing 20 HQs in a normal army list. Or to sum itup: they are only for apocalypse/premade szenarios.



I find this hilarious that people call the Achillies cheesy, and won't play against it, yet are very happy to ablige you with one or more titans.


Seams you dont know much more as the person in the quote above. TITANS have no FOC allocation and therefore cannot be taken in normal games of 40k regardless if you have a FW issue or not.

Actually from testing experience takeing more than 1 warhound is equalling to handing the game to your oponent if he's half competent. 300-500 points of HQ/troops dont survive very long against a 2k army and titans cant hold objectives and are as afraid of melta as everything non-necron else!





To people like wittdooley and Xas, with messages along the lines of "Find another group to play with" and "Refuse to play people who refuse to use FW", there is only the simple answer of "Goodbye. You won't be missed".


and neither will you.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

What he said...

[Gir]

I find this hilarious that people call the Achillies cheesy, and won't play against it, yet are very happy to ablige you with one or more titans.

Even funnier considering how rubbish the Achillies is in the real world.

[Fellend]

Is it just me that finds this really silly?

There's really only one argument here, It's whether your opponent wants to play you or not.
It doesn't need to be FW models to make him say no. Personally I don't find 9-2 Ob-Lash lists very fun to play against and I have the right to say no.

On the otherhand I find FW things greatly amusing and I will gladly play against it.

In short, tuck away your nerd rage. Just like dating it is their choice to reject you or not, and if they do, you move on and find someone that better suits your style. The end

[HsojVvad]

Cool, so next time I play against marines I will just assume my oponent brings a landraider for me as well. Or wait actually you have to extend that argument to the rest of 40k as well. So you are one of those players that go like "Hey, wanna play? - Shure, if you buy me an army!" and are usually flogged out of our store...


Hey I was just trying to think up some ideas. This would show that the person isn't a power gamer and trying to get an advantage or edge on purpose to just "win".

I am curious, are you the same Xas on the Elemental fourms as well?

[eldargal]

Everything in this hobby rests on opponents permission, if they do not like your list, they don't have to play you. Forge World is no exception. I think its perfectly reasonable for someone to turn down playing FW models if they are there with the expectation of playing a basic BRB+Codex game of 40k. But at the same time you should be able to organise games where you can bring FW models and rules too, and if you are part of a club or formal group you really ought to spell out the policy on FW models quite explicitly.

Personally I don't find the Achilles cheesy, I just find it ridiculous that the rare and venerated Land Raider STC now has more variants than most codices entire Heavy Support sections.:rolleyes:

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Wow, i'm glad i got pointed out that i obviously don't know that you can take Titans only in Apoc games, gee i guess the 20 or more Apoc games i have played were wrong...ofcourse i know you can't use titans unless its Apoc. Read what i said.

I have read all the rules from IA, maybe i dont remember them all, but i'm pretty sure that i know its a FW model, so i know it is usually polite to ask. My point was the guy thought i was a smuck for wanting the Achillies (at the time i was just saying i would like one maybe), for him its over powered, broken and hates it. Yet as said, he plays Titans and baneblades often enough. So point is, In an Apoc why would he complain over a LR with two titans??

Xas, where in my post did i mention i was talking about anything that would let you jump to conclusion i dont know the rules Titans are for Apoc only? Seriously i think if im talking titans its good to assume i'm refering to Apocalypse games, not regular 40k games that i know the Achillies is fine with to play.

Hmmmm....for me, i am polite to tell them, now i know i dont need to, but i do that if am playing a FW model. As Eldargal said, technically if your opponent doesn't like your army you can't force them to play you. If you have FW miniatures and they dont, well they don't have to play you again. Simple.
There are some people who also don't like playing certian armies too. Just some don't like nidz, BT's, or whatever for their own reasons.

[The West Coast Knight]

I am going to try and answer these concerns

Quote :
For someone like me, all I know about Forge World, is 1) that it's not GW legal. By that, GW even says not anyone can show up and use it out of the blue without permission.2) What I know, it's over powered, some units are over costed, other units are undercosted.

Reply
All Forge World stuff is legall for the expansions they are designed for so no Warhounds and Reaver in non Apocalypse games
To say it is not GW legal is amuzing seeing as GW and Forge World are part of the same company sharing the same head office in Nottingham England making models and rules for the same game!
As far as points cost it could be said about any Codex or IA book or WD add on some things are great for their points cost some things not so much

Quote"
Another thing that bothers me about this, is IF all you people are up in arms about not letting anyone use FW, why not bring some stuff for your opponent to use as well then? If you can't ahead of time warn or ask permission about what you want to use, then you should bring FW stuff for your opponent to use as well.

Reply
Not totally a crazy idea in some Apocalypse games I have lent out one of me Imperial Titans so both side have one but in regular games this makes no sense.

Quote
Also, if someone wants to use FW and he wins big because of his FW stuff, then it should be an automatic Loss for him because, YES it was unfair battle.

Reply
If I ever win with my Chaos Renegades Army from IA 5, 6, and,7 I will eat my own shorts Not over powered not under cost but sure nice to look at:)

Quote"
Another point, all I know, someone asks to use FW stuff, all I know is he is using flyers or planes or what ever they are called and in most cases non FW stuff can't handle it. Also what if someone brings in a Hellhound or what ever those giant robots are called? How can anyone using a non FW book go up agaisnt it? How is that fair?

Reply

Again Flyers for most cases can not be used in regular games of 40k and Titans are only for Apoc
Only exception to flyesr of coarse is in my new Elysian army from IA8 LOVE IT!
I think you should read and IA book before you go on line and pass judgement next time.

[Mystery.Shadow]

I own one FW model, a Vulture for my Airborne IG. I run it with 4 rocket pods against my frequent tyranid opponent, and swap two out for a TL missile launcher against others. The thing is just an upgunned Valkyrie with no transport capacity. No special rules, it's just an airborne gun platform. My FLGS allows FW if you bring the written rules (yay :D), and the Vulture is fairly non-objectionable.

You're telling me that taking a FLYER against a Tyranid Player is non-objectable?!
How the heck are the Tyranids supposed to handle a Flyer?!?!

[Gotthammer]

In normal games it's just a fast skimmer (like the Valkyrie).

[HsojVvad]

I think you should read and IA book before you go on line and pass judgement next time.

Uh? What is the title of the thread? Why is Forge World percieved as scary? I thought I gave great evidence as to why it is scarey. Because alot of us don't know any better and go by what we hear and told by GW staff.

Af for the FW not being Legal, Yes I read that somewhere BY GW. GW say that you need to ask permission to use it. FW is not for most 40K games as GW says.

Why should I have to go read every IA book? I am not paying $80+ so over $800 just to read the rules that I will never use. That was pretty rude saying for me to read the IA book before I pass judgement.

First I don't recall where I passed judgement. I think I gave great points as to why peopel are afraid of FW stuff. So now I am at fault and to be blamed eh?

[Faultie]

The only FW vehicles I ever regularly field are my Arbites' Repressors, but they're about as balanced as one gets with rules. Until the recent recosting, they were actually significantly over-priced.

If anyone has a problem, I counts-as them for Chimeras, which I think are actually better.

[The West Coast Knight]

Uh? What is the title of the thread? Why is Forge World percieved as scary? I thought I gave great evidence as to why it is scarey. Because alot of us don't know any better and go by what we hear and told by GW staff.

Af for the FW not being Legal, Yes I read that somewhere BY GW. GW say that you need to ask permission to use it. FW is not for most 40K games as GW says.

Why should I have to go read every IA book? I am not paying $80+ so over $800 just to read the rules that I will never use. That was pretty rude saying for me to read the IA book before I pass judgement.

First I don't recall where I passed judgement. I think I gave great points as to why peopel are afraid of FW stuff. So now I am at fault and to be blamed eh?

OK calm down little fella I am not the Inquisition I am simply pointing out where you are mistaken in your posts and should do a little more research before you make false statements.
Now in some of the older IA books it does say you needed to ask permission to use the mode,l of coarse thats was only for things that FW wrote the rules for not for things like a Dreadnought whose rules are printed in GW codices.
However in all the new books all it says is you will need a copy of the 40k rulebook and or the Apoc rulebook to use the army lists in this book.
Now I am not saying you need to run down to GW and buy all the books( although they are awesome and you will enjoy them) I am saying you need to be aware that these are valid army list and models with rules produced by GW and are all perfectly legal and will also be legal soon in tournamenst globally at least those still run by GW.
And yes in your post you claimed to be told that your local GW told you that the IA books models and list are not legal so I would call that passing judgement and you are incorrect.
No hard feelings.

[steelmage99]

OK calm down little fella I am not the Inquisition I am simply pointing out where you are mistaken in your posts and should do a little more research before you make false statements.
Now in some of the older IA books it does say you needed to ask permission to use the mode,l of coarse thats was only for things that FW wrote the rules for not for things like a Dreadnought whose rules are printed in GW codices.
.

Why don't you take some of your own medicine and do some research before you make any more mistakes.

I am sure I don't have to point out where you are wrong.

[The West Coast Knight]

Why don't you take some of your own medicine and do some research before you make any more mistakes.

I am sure I don't have to point out where you are wrong.

Please point?

[geisthammer]

This thread has turned into a **** storm of opinions. Chill people.

[Vaktathi]

Why should I have to go read every IA book? I am not paying $80+ so over $800 just to read the rules that I will never use. That was pretty rude saying for me to read the IA book before I pass judgement. To be fair, the majority of their rules are available for free online on the FW website.


If cost is the issue, how many people own all the codecies? Are armies that you people know the rules for or don't have their book permission only? What about armies one may not be able to afford (say mech IG relative to standard SM's)?


This thread has turned into a **** storm of opinions. Chill people. It usually does on this board whenever FW comes up. Inevitably there are some people who don't see why including FW is such a big issue (especially units designed within the parameters of the simple BRB missions and a standard FoC), and on the other hand there are people who just can't/won't play anything but Codex/BRB games, and finally others who had someone pull a fast one on them with FW stuff (typically either outright cheating, I can't count the number of times I've had to correct people on what they thought an FW unit did or cost when complaining about how it was used against them, or using something in a way FW never intended, like a Titan in a 1500pt game) and are eternally butthurt about it.

[HsojVvad]

OK calm down little fella

Hey now, hitting below the belt now eh? :P How did you know?


No hard feelings.

No hard feelings at all. :)

*edit* That didn't come out right, LOL.

Yeah I know GW is one of the same. Kinda stupid to have it as seperate companies. Also I should say wich I don't believe I wrote it or deleted it, I wouldn't refuse anyone from playing FW. I was just giving reasons why people think they refuse people for having FW.

[Brotherjames]

Wow! When I originally posted this thread I had no idea some would feel so strongly about FW. I just wanted to see if anyone else ever got the "your using what!" reaction just by hearing the name before reading the datasheet and realizing that forge world is not the nuclear football and just by using one doesn't mean you'll win the game. In fact the game I played that started this I lost I mowed Telion and his scout cronies with the prometheus battle auspex and Hvy B's only to have Calgar flush out my last scoring unit costing me the chance to win. At the end of the day we had a good time with the comment "that raiders not as bad as I thought, I want one"

[murrburger]

My biggest problem is that it basically gives Imperial Guard many, many more options. (and they already have many).

If someone talks to me beforehand, and shows me the rules for what they're going to use, I'll consider letting them use FW stuff.

In a pick up game against a stranger, I never would. I simply don't know the FW rules well enough, and I don't want any unpleasant surprises/arguments.

[Vaktathi]

My biggest problem is that it basically gives Imperial Guard many, many more options. (and they already have many).

If someone talks to me beforehand, and shows me the rules for what they're going to use, I'll consider letting them use FW stuff.

In a pick up game against a stranger, I never would. I simply don't know the FW rules well enough, and I don't want any unpleasant surprises/arguments.
Does that go for armies/codecies you aren't familiar with as well? It's the exact same thing.

[Mr. Brown]

Does that go for armies/codecies you aren't familiar with as well? It's the exact same thing.
In summary we have one side saying that it is fair and legal to play Forge World models in tournament and the other side saying that FW models should only be allowed if the opponent says it is okay or that FW models are illegal period.

I am a Imperial Guard player that has felt in many games that the Guard is undermanned for combat against many of the other armies. Should FW produce a model an alternate or additional rules for said model, and this model helps the Guard stay in combat better, then of course I am going to buy it. Is this wrong?

Why can't the Guard be competitive and win once in a while?

I love options and variety, and have the monetary commitment to provide these choices. Is that wrong?

There is obvious middle ground to both sides of this debate, but let's never forget that balance is not always possible.

[Vaktathi]

Not quite my argument, and FW hasn't put out anything like that for the IG, they're usually pretty good about staying within the established archetypes.

My point was that if people are harping on FW because of either unfamiliarity, or because of cost, why the double standard when it comes to armies they can't afford (and yes, there is a real, noticeable cost gap for different armies and builds) or whose codecies they don't own/haven't read? The whole "I don't know what it does so I don't want to play against it" argument falls short when people whip it out whenever FW is raised, but forget it when they play an army they haven't before or a new codex comes out that they haven't seen yet.

Also, IG have no issues with competitiveness at this point, not quite sure where that's coming from.


I love options and variety, and have the monetary commitment to provide these choices. Is that wrong? Nope, as otherwise we'd have nothing but Space Marine armies given how much more most other armies, especially Ork/Tryanid/IG armies cost.

[Lerra]

My first army was Kroot Mercs, and I still bring it out from time to time.

About 75% of the time, people balk that I'm using non-standard rules (the army list is from Chapter Approved). "No way, everyone knows CA/Forgeworld rules are overpowered."

Really? Kroot Mercs, overpowered? LOL.

I'm working on converting the list to the Tau codex so that I can play the army for casual games. I betcha I'll start getting complaints about unit spam at that point. People will always find something to complain about.

[murrburger]

Does that go for armies/codecies you aren't familiar with as well? It's the exact same thing.

I am familiar with all the current books. Even stuff like Witch Hunters and Black Templars.

If someone wants to play Forgeworld, Kroot Mercenaries or even homebrew, that's fine. Just sit down and talk to me about what you're fielding, and give me the rules a day or so in advance. What I DON'T want is pulling that stuff out on me in a pick up game.

[Vaktathi]

The rules for the vast majority of stuff are available for free online from FW's website, and most of it is simply equipment swaps for common chassis that really don't require more than two minutes of perusal to get the full scope. Asking someone to provide stuff a day in advance generally isn't feasible if they are already there, or it usually means a full week at least for most gaming clubs/stores before they'll get to use whatever it is they wanted to, which is rather lame. Taking ten/fifteen minutes beforehand is usually more than sufficient as long as they aren't trying to field a Titan in a 1500pt game or spam one of the three newer SM units that everyone has a problem with.

[steelmage99]

Please point?

Why don't you start by addressing the points I have brought up in previous posts.
Points that you, and others, have conveniently failed to address.

Then we can take it from there.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Well, the original point of the thread has been answered I think. There are people who have and enjoy Forgeworld stuff, and people that don't. They don't wanna play FW stuff. I think then the debate really is at an end?

[oni]

FW is in my opinion more for Apocalypse battles, because in those battles pretty much anything goes.

You can't think of FW models and rules as an expansion interchangeable with the core of 40K because it's not. How about I use a Bane Blade, a Stompa, or even a Warhound Titan while we're playing a regular game of 40K? They have published rules and points costs so what's the problem?

See what I'm saying?

[The West Coast Knight]

Why don't you start by addressing the points I have brought up in previous posts.
Points that you, and others, have conveniently failed to address.

Then we can take it from there.

Please let us know where I am am wrong in bullet form then?

[The West Coast Knight]

I must certainly haven't missed that.

Imperial Armour is just as official as Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Spearhead and Apocalypse.
Do you play any of those without coordinating it with your opponent?
Can you take units from Apocalypse, Stratagems from CoD and some of the opening strikes from Planetstrike, and just throw them into a normal game of 40K?

OK I went back and found this thread of yours
What I am trying to tell you is that in the new books which super-seed the old books as far as rules and how they are used they are legal and official.
I am speaking specifically about the Army lists for the armies I play all the time like Death Korps, Renagades, Droop Troopers and Ork Mek army
These lists are legal just the same as a codex as are the codex additions found in the IA Apoc 1 and 2 books. With things like Blight Drones and Plauge Hulk being able to add to Deamons or Chaos armies.
You can be rude and refuse to play against these armies if you so wish its a free world for the most part but it is no different then saying you wont play Dark Eldar.

[Lockark]

FW is in my opinion more for Apocalypse battles, because in those battles pretty much anything goes.

You can't think of FW models and rules as an expansion interchangeable with the core of 40K because it's not. How about I use a Bane Blade, a Stompa, or even a Warhound Titan while we're playing a regular game of 40K? They have published rules and points costs so what's the problem?

See what I'm saying?

That statement doesn't really make sense. The forge world books are more then super heavies and fliers. They add new army lists and units to existing armies. Like Trojan recovery vehicles, IG & SM command Tanks, ect. Imperial Guard Armored Companies, and Traitor Guard lists are also some examples.

Things that are meant to be taken in regular games and regular FoC charts.


Lumping all forge world stuff into "this is only for apoc" really dose disservices to what the Imperal Armour books are meant to be.

[DarkLink]

steelmage is just trolling. Ignore him.

[Vaktathi]

FW is in my opinion more for Apocalypse battles, because in those battles pretty much anything goes.

You can't think of FW models and rules as an expansion interchangeable with the core of 40K because it's not. How about I use a Bane Blade, a Stompa, or even a Warhound Titan while we're playing a regular game of 40K? They have published rules and points costs so what's the problem?

See what I'm saying?

There's a huge difference between a Titan and say a Leman Russ Annihilator.

The FW rules specifically state that Titans are for Apoc games only, or if you *really* must use them outside of an Apoc game, they require a 2nd FoC, in which case you're not play a standard game of 40k anyway. Using a Titan in normal game without the 2nd FoC is not using it according to the FW rules. It'd be like someone taking 6 HS choices in a normal game when they should only have 3.


On the other hand,FW's Leman Russ Annihilator is simply an IG HS choice that swaps a battlecannon for a single BS3 TL Lascannon and is a couple points cheaper that is designed to be used within the context of a normal game.


Thing like this annoy me a lot because it's obvious people aren't familiar with the FW rules for such things when making these arguments. Even by FW rules titans shouldn't be used in normal games, if they are someone is doing something wrong.

[steelmage99]

OK I went back and found this thread of yours
What I am trying to tell you is that in the new books which super-seed the old books as far as rules and how they are used they are legal and official.

And what do all the new books have printed on the front of the cover?


I am speaking specifically about the Army lists for the armies I play all the time like Death Korps, Renagades, Droop Troopers and Ork Mek army.

Which are all found in the books with the aforementioned print.



These lists are legal just the same as a codex as are the codex additions found in the IA Apoc 1 and 2 books. With things like Blight Drones and Plauge Hulk being able to add to Deamons or Chaos armies.

They are NOT legal just the same as a codex. They are, on the other hand, as fully legal and official as Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Apocalypse and Spearhead. I am sure you can see the difference.




You can be rude and refuse to play against these armies if you so wish its a free world for the most part but it is no different then saying you wont play Dark Eldar.

Would you call a person rude because they didn't want to play Apocalypse with you, but rather a game of "standard" 40K? This is more to the heart of the problem actually.
I am sure you wouldn't mind me bringing a Spearhead formation or two to a standard game of 40K, would you? (/sarcasm)
Because that is exactly what you are proposing to do with the expansion named "Imperial Armour".



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Whenever this discussion pops up, one side keeps cluttering up the issue with arguments like;

1. It is written by GW (patently wrong)

2. It is written by the same people that write the codexes (also wrong)

3. It is written by people that share offices with the games development guys (still wrong)

4. It is written by people that sit in the same building complex as the games development guys. (Correct, but really....so what?)

5. "What is so broken about *insert long list of over-costed, meh-units from Imperial Armour here*" (and conveniently skipping the hard units.)

6. "But it is only *insert hard unit that is broken*" (and conveniently ignoring that that happens to be the units that most people want to bring)

7. "You are just a WAAC player and have missed the point of the game!" (What has that erroneous statement have to do with the legality of IA?)

(@West Coast Knight, please note that I am not saying that you have presented all those arguments. It is merely a summary of often-posted "arguments")


All these "arguments" are all sidestepping the real issues.

1. The last time FW addressed the issue of legality they said the following;

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/12/11/162815_sm-.jpg (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/162815-.html)
(This is from "Imperial Armour Apocalypse")

2. All Imperial Armour books from Volume 5 and onwards has "Warhammer 40K Expansion" printed on the front cover.

How anybody can come to any other conclusion than; "Imperial Armour is a fully legal and official Warhammer 40K Expansion and should be treated as such" is beyond me.

I am saying that I almost always say "no" to Imperial Armour because I almost always run into people that just want to run all the broken units. Your mileage may vary.
Should I run into a player that plays, say, Renegades I would be more than happy to play a game (or several). I just can't be bothered playing against "the usual suspects".

@Darklink

Thank you for your input.

[Lockark]

Whenever this discussion pops up, one side keeps cluttering up the issue with arguments like;

1. It is written by GW (patently wrong)

2. It is written by the same people that write the codexes (also wrong)

3. It is written by people that share offices with the games development guys (still wrong)

4. It is written by people that sit in the same building complex as the games development guys. (Correct, but really....so what?)

5. "What is so broken about *insert long list of over-costed, meh-units from Imperial Armour here*" (and conveniently skipping the hard units.)

6. "But it is only *insert hard unit that is broken*" (and conveniently ignoring that that happens to be the units that most people want to bring)

7. "You are just a WAAC player and have missed the point of the game!" (What has that erroneous statement have to do with the legality of IA?)

(@West Coast Knight, please note that I am not saying that you have presented all those arguments. It is merely a summary of often-posted "arguments")




So your going to clutter up the argument by putting word in the other sides mouth? Most of this "summary of often-posted arguments" were not ever brought on in this topic.

It has almost been internally about how it's a misconception to think the Forge World rules are over powered in some way.

[oni]

That statement doesn't really make sense. The forge world books are more then super heavies and fliers. They add new army lists and units to existing armies. Like Trojan recovery vehicles, IG & SM command Tanks, ect. Imperial Guard Armored Companies, and Traitor Guard lists are also some examples.

Things that are meant to be taken in regular games and regular FoC charts.


Lumping all forge world stuff into "this is only for apoc" really dose disservices to what the Imperal Armour books are meant to be.

Doesn't it make sense? Perhaps you've done a disservice to Apocalypse by stereotyping it as nothing more than "heavies and fliers". Not surprising, as that's what most people do.

[The West Coast Knight]

Well steelmage99 you seem to missing my point and I do not wish to keep repeating it so we will have to agree to disagree
I will however to continue to fully enjoy playing all my Forge world models and armies except those only designed for Apoc in regular games of 40K as will everyone in my gaming group and in the pick up games in the GW stores in my area.
I hope you don't find yourself running out of people to play because of your stubborn attitude towards FW which is of coarse part of GW and not a separate evil empire you make it out to be.

[oni]

Thing like this annoy me a lot because it's obvious people aren't familiar with the FW rules for such things when making these arguments. Even by FW rules titans shouldn't be used in normal games, if they are someone is doing something wrong.

Try not to make assumptions about what people do and do not know.

Does GW design and play test the FW model rules? NO, they do not, because these rules AND Forge World itself sit outside of the normal game. Are FW rules allowed in tournaments? NO, they are not. because the rules sit outside of the normal game.

Let's use Magic: The Gathering as a comparative here because some of the people here that "aren't familiar with rules for such things when making these arguments" may be able to relate. Perhaps you're one of them.
M:TG uses what's called constructed formats to dictate and define what cards and card sets are usable in games. For example: Standard, Extended, Block, Legacy ect. These constructed formats are the rules for deck construction and game play so when you sit down with your opponent your both evenly matched and know the protocol of game play.

GW's codex based 40K we'll refer to as Standard and FW's Imperial Armour 40K as Extended. Yes, both Standard and Extended have cards that work within the core rules of the game because after all they were design that way, but Standard is comprised of sets that are accessible to everyone because only the most recently printed sets can be used. Extended on the other hand is able to use cards from previous out of print editions that not everyone may have had a chance to collect and may contain special rules most players are not familiar with. So make the playing field fair Standard constructed decks play Standard constructed decks and Extended constructed decks play Extended constructed decks.

Get it?

[The West Coast Knight]

Try not to make assumptions about what people do and do not know.

Does GW design and play test the FW model rules? NO, they do not, because these rules AND Forge World itself sit outside of the normal game. Are FW rules allowed in tournaments? NO, they are not. because the rules sit outside of the normal game.

Let's use Magic: The Gathering as a comparative here because some of the people here that "aren't familiar with rules for such things when making these arguments" may be able to relate. Perhaps you're one of them.
M:TG uses what's called constructed formats to dictate and define what cards and card sets are usable in games. For example: Standard, Extended, Block, Legacy ect. These constructed formats are the rules for deck construction and game play so when you sit down with your opponent your both evenly matched and know the protocol of game play.

GW's codex based 40K we'll refer to as Standard and FW's Imperial Armour 40K as Extended. Yes, both Standard and Extended have cards that work within the core rules of the game because after all they were design that way, but Standard is comprised of sets that are accessible to everyone because only the most recently printed sets can be used. Extended on the other hand is able to use cards from previous out of print editions that not everyone may have had a chance to collect and may contain special rules most players are not familiar with. So make the playing field fair Standard constructed decks play Standard constructed decks and Extended constructed decks play Extended constructed decks.

Get it?
Well just to be clear GW design staff are now assisting with rules and play testing on IA books and you will soon see the FW army list allowed in tournaments run by GW.
Not saying how I know this but if you want to win some bets with your friends put money on it:)

[Vaktathi]

Try not to make assumptions about what people do and do not know. If you're going to start making it seem like using Titans in normal games is what FW allows you to do, then you obviously do not know the rules for them. Your previous example was taking FW units completely out of context of how they intend and design them to be used.




Does GW design and play test the FW model rules? NO, they do not, because these rules AND Forge World itself sit outside of the normal game. Are FW rules allowed in tournaments? NO, they are not. because the rules sit outside of the normal game. Tournaments !=Normal play. GW has stated this on multiple occaisions. Tournament legality is not universal, there is no set tournament standard and tournaments are *outside* normal play in and of themselves. They have no bearing whatsoever on normal play legality. Additionally, FW stuff is generally removed from tournaments not for balance reasons, but rather just simplicity of keeping down the number of things the organizers have to keep track of and worry about. Some do allow FW stuff, Adepticon for example which also happens to be one of the largest gaming events in the US. When Chapter Approved was still around, some allowed it, some didn't. The UK GT's wouldn't allow Armored Companies but the US GT's did. Many tournaments use non-standard missions. Tournaments don't even have a common points level, the UK standard is 1500, US goes all over the place between 1750/1850/2000, and Hard Boyz uses 2500.

There just is no "tournament standard" on whats legal, what points to use, what missions to use, etc.

GW and FW are the same thing. They are in the same buiding, same phone lines, same parking lot, etc. All of their stuff is Citadel minatures and GW product, it says so right on the books and model packaging.

There *isn't* any standard on what is *normal* 40k. There is no rule that defines only Codex/BRB as "normal" 40k.

And really, lets not pretend that GW does great playtesting. Aside from the 3 SM units mentioned repeatedly in this thread, the vast majority of FW stuff is generally overpriced and underpowered. They have a far lower ratio of broken stuff getting through playtesting than GW does, like Long Fangs, Vendettas, Vulkan, Lash, Doom, etc.



Let's use Magic: The Gathering as a comparative here because some of the people here that "aren't familiar with rules for such things when making these arguments" may be able to relate. Perhaps you're one of them.
M:TG uses what's called constructed formats to dictate and define what cards and card sets are usable in games. For example: Standard, Extended, Block, Legacy ect. These constructed formats are the rules for deck construction and game play so when you sit down with your opponent your both evenly matched and know the protocol of game play.

GW's codex based 40K we'll refer to as Standard and FW's Imperial Armour 40K as Extended. Yes, both Standard and Extended have cards that work within the core rules of the game because after all they were design that way, but Standard is comprised of sets that are accessible to everyone because only the most recently printed sets can be used. Extended on the other hand is able to use cards from previous out of print editions that not everyone may have had a chance to collect and may contain special rules most players are not familiar with. So make the playing field fair Standard constructed decks play Standard constructed decks and Extended constructed decks play Extended constructed decks.

Get it?Setting aside that I have little knowledge of Magic: The Gathering, You are making one critical mistake here. Nowhere is Codex only play defined as "normal" play anywhere in the rulebook. To use the analogy, GW has no "standard"/"extended" distinction in its rules.

There are unstated conventions, but little else.

[Lockark]

Doesn't it make sense? Perhaps you've done a disservice to Apocalypse by stereotyping it as nothing more than "heavies and fliers". Not surprising, as that's what most people do.

lul, wut?

I can pin point were you said all Imperial Armour stuff is only for apoc.


FW is in my opinion more for Apocalypse battles, because in those battles pretty much anything goes.


If your going to make a argument, you could at least try something more witty then childishly trying to turn my argument on it self. I pointed out the flaw in your argument by saying "All Imperial Armour units should only be used in apoc." despite the fact there are army lists and units in the books meant for regular games.


Your reply had nothing to do with any of my points.

[steelmage99]

Well steelmage99 you seem to missing my point and I do not wish to keep repeating it so we will have to agree to disagree
I will however to continue to fully enjoy playing all my Forge world models and armies except those only designed for Apoc in regular games of 40K as will everyone in my gaming group and in the pick up games in the GW stores in my area.
I hope you don't find yourself running out of people to play because of your stubborn attitude towards FW which is of coarse part of GW and not a separate evil empire you make it out to be.

And here it comes....


*Sidestep*
*Deflection*


Ah, it is good to be right.

[steelmage99]

So your going to clutter up the argument by putting word in the other sides mouth? Most of this "summary of often-posted arguments" were not ever brought on in this topic.

It has almost been internally about how it's a misconception to think the Forge World rules are over powered in some way.

Oh yes, Lockark. By all means, focus on this part of my post and sidestep the real issues being brought up.
Sigh.

[Marcus Iago Geruasius]

I stand bymy original assertion... that it is class warefare issue... a difference between the haves and the have-nots. Those that have seem to delve into the FW realm and don't mind it, while those that have-not don't wan't it shoved in their face.

When it comes down to it. both players have to agree to the rules prior to start or there is no game. like I told my often opponent and often friend. If I bring a 2000 pt army of ground poundsers and you have two titans on the table. I flee, you win, now lets play another round with new lists or we can go hit the PS3.

If you have ever been an infantryman (in the real world) you know how scary tanks are, especially if you don't have any TOWs or AT4s. You generlaly hide and hope they don't see you.

[Vaktathi]

I stand bymy original assertion... that it is class warefare issue... a difference between the haves and the have-nots. Those that have seem to delve into the FW realm and don't mind it, while those that have-not don't wan't it shoved in their face. And again it applies just as much, if not more, between standard GW armies. I got my Chaos Dreads from FW *cheaper* than the metals from GW. My 2nd Mech IG using nothing but cadians and basic plastic kits cost me a more than an entire FW Space Marine army would have have.

Does this principle apply just as much for Thundefire cannons with a $0.50 per point ratio compared with a Land Raider and its $0.21 per point ratio, gaining more than twice the points per dollar spent?


What about Space Marines that cost $0.2 per point, but Cadian Guardsmen that cost nearly $0.4 per point?

The cost assertion is rather silly given the expense of the hobby as a whole, and reading something into the game that isn't there, doesn't belong, or is misplaced.

Currently, I'm between jobs, and have spent most of the last few years as student making rather poor money, and I just don't see this as that kind of issue.

[Vaddok Sek]

I would say it is generally derived from the unfamiliarity of the unit in question. After all, how many players can tell you what a Thud Gun does or even have a copy of IA at all? You see this fear surface any time between the time a new codex is announced and some of its rumours have been verified to about 7 months after its release. The players don't know how the new unit functions and thus don't know how to respond to/counter it, and proclaim that it is therefore "broken".

[The West Coast Knight]

And here it comes....


*Sidestep*
*Deflection*


Ah, it is good to be right.

Steel you are only right in your own head.

[Marcus Iago Geruasius]

The cost assertion is rather silly given the expense of the hobby as a whole, and reading something into the game that isn't there, doesn't belong, or is misplaced.

Currently, I'm between jobs, and have spent most of the last few years as student making rather poor money, and I just don't see this as that kind of issue.

I don't think it is necessarily the cost per point. i like your assertion that some models are actually at a unit/price level more effective than others. The issues maybe a bit different for adults who have or have had jobs and are willing to budget their lives toward their hobby. Still some don't wish to mortgage their house for their hobby :) and resent those that can afford FW. Kids on the other hand don't really have an income and are therefor dependent on their parents... thus creating the two classes, the haves and the have-nots.

[steelmage99]

OK, let try this then.


This is a cropped picture of the front of Codex Dark Eldar (which I own and have legitimately made an electronic backup of).

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/2/3/180853_sm-.png (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/180853-.html)



This is a cropped picture of the front of Cities of Death (yadda yadda)

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/2/3/180854_sm-.png (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/180854-.html)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here comes the big question.

How will you treat a book with the following marking on its front cover? (sorry about the crappy cropping)

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/2/3/180855_sm-.png (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/180855-.html)
Image is a cropped picture of the front cover of Imperial Armour 9 - The Badab War Part 1.


Will you treat the content as an Expansion (Like Cities of Death et al.) or as a Codex (like Codex Dark Eldar et al.)?

No bull****ting, no sidestepping, no guesses as to my motivations or monetary status. Just a simple answer to a simple question. Codex or Expansion?

[The West Coast Knight]

So Steel, by your logic if I showed up at your FLGS and I pulled out my one of my Death Korps of Kreig armies using IA list for friendly games or my new Tyrants Legion Army you would jump up and down and say no way not legal and not playing me?????

[steelmage99]

Is that an "Expansion" answer?

[The West Coast Knight]

Is that an "Expansion" answer?

Why yes it is and it expands on the core rules and in my new books not ones 2, 3, or 5 years old it does not say I need to ask permission to play my army list.
I am not asking you to play a different style of game like planet strike or COD or Spearhead I am asking for a game of 40k straight out of the BRB playing a published by GW army list!
And I am not trying to sneek in Super heavies in a regular game.
What is your answer????

[Lockark]

Oh yes, Lockark. By all means, focus on this part of my post and sidestep the real issues being brought up.
Sigh.

It's hard to pay attention to any other points your making when you start going on strange rants that had nothing to do with what people were even talking about.


Also what issue were you even bring up? There is no issue here as far as I see. You refuse to play ageist ANY Imperial Armour Content. When pressed why you don't play ageist imperial Armour, you start making arguments about the legality of Imperial Armour books.


The problem is that isn't the issue. The Issue isn't Imperial Armour books and tournaments. (But you lost that debate anyway when people pointed out all the major tournaments were you CAN use imperial Armour books, and that there is no tournament standard in 40k.)

The issue is why in friendly pick up games people REFUSE to play ageist Imperial Armour. (Even the standalone AI lists.)

[steelmage99]

Why yes it is and it expands of the core rules and in my new books not ones 2, 3, or 5 years old it does not say I need to ask permission to play my army list.

What old books say is irrelevant compared to new ones. You have yourself established this earlier.


What I am trying to tell you is that in the new books which super-seed the old books as far as rules and how they are used they are legal and official.



I am not asking you to play a different style of game like planet strike or COD or Spearhead


Yes, you are. Didn't we just establish that they are the same thing? Expansions?


I am asking for a game of 40k straight out of the BRB playing a published by GW army list!

No, you are not. You are asking to play an Expansion game, just like CoD and Spearhead, with a published-by-Forgeworld armylist ( I assume you are referring to the previously mentioned armylists published in Imperial Armour).



And I am not trying to sneek in Super heavies in a regular game.

I didn't expect you to. The "super heavies in normal games are broken-argument" was by another poster, not me.


What is your answer????

This is an example of actively trying to sidestep the issue and muddy up the waters.
What has my willingness to play you, have to do with the "legal/official" status of Imperial Armour?

Aside from that, I would probably (enjoy) playing you as you seem like the type of person that wouldn't use Imperial Armour just to get a "boost" to your army.

[The West Coast Knight]

Well I give up and have better things to do in life
For all those that think Forge World stuff is scary it is not
Play against the models and the lists and you will get more enjoyment out of your games I promise.
Just make sure the person you are playing is using the model correctly ask to see a copy of the rules and make sure you both understand how it works in the game and enjoy

[DarkLink]

It's hard to pay attention to any other points your making when you start going on strange rants that had nothing to do with what people were even talking about.


There's a convenient ignore feature. If you can't see a troll, you won't be tempted to feed him;). Saves yourself a lot of headaches:).

[steelmage99]

It's hard to pay attention to any other points your making when you start going on strange rants that had nothing to do with what people were even talking about.

I gather you don't see that the connection is. That is OK.



Also what issue were you even bring up? There is no issue here as far as I see. You refuse to play ageist ANY Imperial Armour Content. When pressed why you don't play ageist imperial Armour, you start making arguments about the legality of Imperial Armour books.

The issue of legality, which became the subject of the thread.
I said that my answer was "an almost automatic "no"" if I remember correctly.
When asked why, I answered. You must have missed it.

Quoted here for your convenience;


The overcosted "nice" units aren't the ones people want to use in my experience.
They want to use the broken-***, we-smoked-weed-while-writing-this, excessive units. And they don't want to use just one....

Whenever anybody asks me whether they can use a FW unit, the answer is an almost automatic "no", and make no mistake, they do have to ask my permission.
My reasoning hasn't got anything to do with "rich kid/poor kid", price tag or the availability of the rule-set. I simply cannot be bothered.
Just like I very rarely, if ever, play Cities of Death, Planetstrike or Spearhead, so I very rarely, if ever, play Imperial Armour.
*Snip*
In summary, in my experience the units you mention as broken are the ones that most people want to field (multiples of). The vast majority of the FW units are seen as "Meh" and not taken. To that list I would also like to add the Death Storm Pods and the seemingly minor "5 point to upgrade multi-laser to autocannon" bit.

Of course, this is very much tempered by my experiences with FW and the people who want to play their units.



The problem is that isn't the issue. The Issue isn't Imperial Armour books and tournaments. (But you lost that debate anyway when people pointed out all the major tournaments were you CAN use imperial Armour books, and that there is no tournament standard in 40k.)

I assume you are refering to this post as the one where "it was pointed out all the major tournaments that allows IA".


Some do allow FW stuff, Adepticon for example which also happens to be one of the largest gaming events in the US. When Chapter Approved was still around, some allowed it, some didn't. The UK GT's wouldn't allow Armored Companies but the US GT's did. Many tournaments use non-standard missions. Tournaments don't even have a common points level, the UK standard is 1500, US goes all over the place between 1750/1850/2000, and Hard Boyz uses 2500.

Lets see who is mentioned here:

Adepticon: Does not allow IA in their tournament besides the special Gladiator event (which is especially known for, against the norm, allowing the use of IA)

Chapter Approved: Mentioned but not a tournament.

UK GT: No IA

US GT: Allowed Armoured Company, but nothing else. Now....Not so much.

Thats it. So by "all the major tournaments", you mean what?

How about Bolscon (which isn't the real name, I know), Bolter Beach and NOVA? (mind, these are just the names that spring to mind off the top of my head)

And aside from that, I wasn't the one to bring up tournaments in this connection.


The issue is why in friendly pick up games people REFUSE to play ageist Imperial Armour. (Even the standalone AI lists.)

Which was answered. See above. Isn't the standalone IA lists printed in books bearing the "Warhammer 40K Expansion"?

[Lockark]

The issue of legality, which became the subject of the thread.


I stopped reading here.

The topic title is "Why is forge world perviced as scary", it is not a topic about "Is Forge World Legal in games?". Legality has nothing to do with the thread we are posting in. So I had no reason to read the rest of it, as it was irrelevant to the thread I came into to read.


Unless your argument is that forgeworld is scary because it's a expansion?

A interesting idea if that's what if fact you have been trying to argue. You should expand on that idea.

[steelmage99]

I stopped reading here.

I am sure you did. Answering the rest would have been hard for you.


The topic title is "Why is forge world perviced as scary", it is not a topic about "Is Forge World Legal in games?". Legality has nothing to do with the thread we are posting in. So I had no reason to read the rest of it, as it was irrelevant to the thread I came into to read.

You know damn well that threads can easily change subject. But again, I am sure it is more comfortable for you to skip the parts where I call you on your nonsense.



Unless your argument is that forgeworld is scary because it's a expansion?

A interesting idea if that's what if fact you have been trying to argue. You should expand on that idea.

Yeah, that is totally what I have been saying all this time. /Sarcasm
Nice attempt at deflection.

[Vaktathi]

Adepticon: Does not allow IA in their tournament besides the special Gladiator event (which is especially known for, against the norm, allowing the use of IA)



UK GT: No IA

US GT: Allowed Armoured Company, but nothing else. Now....Not so much.

Thats it. So by "all the major tournaments", you mean what?

How about Bolscon (which isn't the real name, I know), Bolter Beach and NOVA? (mind, these are just the names that spring to mind off the top of my head)
The point was that using the "tournaments don't allow FW" thing as an argument against using FW was silly because there are no Tournament "Standards". The UK GT also allowed Armored Companies and lists like Kroot Mercs for a bit, but then stopped, while the US GT's kept allowing it, along with other Chapter Approved armies for 2-3 extra years when the dropped them all for simplicites sake.


What some events allow, others don't. Some have heavy comp and some have none, some play 1500pts some play 2500pts, some play with FW some don't. Most of the major ones don't but often smaller events will. Some play just the standard rulebook missions others often create their own. Some enforce 3 colors minimum painted, some don't care if everything is even fully assembled.

The point was that there is no universal tournament "standard" that can really be used to judge anything by.



And aside from that, I wasn't the one to bring up tournaments in this connection. And I wasn't directing the post you quoted at you.

[steelmage99]

The point was that using the "tournaments don't allow FW" thing as an argument against using FW was silly because there are no Tournament "Standards".

And I wasn't directing the post you quoted at you.

I know. It was used as a, vastly inflated, argument by another poster. I didn't quote you as a response to you, but rather the other poster. I thought it was fairly obvious.

I am sure you just registered that you were being quoted and missed the text right above the quote.

[Tynskel]

I'm not sure about you guys and gals but I always run into trouble trying to use my forgeworld mini's. The minute you ask a player if you can use a FW piece they instantly say no before looking at the rules. An example is today I played a 750 point game BA vs SM, I took a bare bones Reclusiarch, bare bones jump AS and tactical troops for my "big stick" I asked if I could use a landraider prometheus. And this was only after the fact my opponents hq was Calgar in termie armor and I'm the dick...

For the most part, Forgeworld Rules are way underpowered for their point values. However, there are some blips (dreadnought drop pod) that are the opposite.

When I used to play on a regular basis (ah, before grad school) I used to fight people with Forgeworld all the time. I have no problem with it. I just know that funky things might happen, or if all else, know that they are hampering themselves.

Look at the Tau Special Character Commander--- you can make seriously better commanders for their point values, but that special character is cool.

[Lockark]

I am sure you did. Answering the rest would have been hard for you.



You know damn well that threads can easily change subject. But again, I am sure it is more comfortable for you to skip the parts where I call you on your nonsense.




Yeah, that is totally what I have been saying all this time. /Sarcasm
Nice attempt at deflection.

Thanks for the passive aggressive insults.

You really are the boss now.


Whenever this discussion pops up, one side keeps cluttering up the issue with arguments like;
-Expansions scare me and I never like to play outside of what my narrow perception of tournament games are.
-I want to talk about something eals now.
-Let's talk about the legalitiy of books.
-I think my random argument that had nothing to do with the OP is right.
-I think winning a argument on the internet matters. Despite the fact the Argument had NOTHING to do with the OP.

[wittdooley]

-Expansions scare me and I never like to play outside of what my narrow perception of tournament games are.


See, this is the thing that frustrates me the most. The expansions are a BLAST to play. I ran a Kill Team tournament here and everyone had a great time, plus the tournament was super short.'

And did I mention the boarding actions in the Badab book? Simply awesome. It's a shame that GW had to put a disclaimer in the book mentioning that the boarding scenarios were not for "hardcore competitive gamers" due to the fact that their spammy armor lists aren't allowed and that they can lose a unit on a whim and roll of the dice.

People ***** about the rules all the time, yet its a shame that all the really creative rules and scenarios that GW has released people refuse to play.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Wow, this is still raging huh? Well I spoke to the guys at my club and was quite surprised at some of the answers. Most people agree that only the super powerful FW stuff (like Gargantuan Creatures, Super Heavies etc) needs permission and a high points value game, but the other stuff is generally ok as long as there's warning beforehand, which actually is fair enough. So I think it's more to do with the FW rules than the models, obviously.
I guess it would always be sensible to inform first, that way if your opponent isn't keen, maybe field a standard army and perhaps save the FW unit for a big game or someone who fancies going up against it.

[andrewm9]

I can tell people this. Anybody who thinks that my 35 point Rhinos are broken can bite me. I play Sisters and use Rhinos and Immolators out of IA. They also come with Searchlights and Smoke Launchers which the codex does not supply since its almost 7 years out of date. FW does a lot of stuff like this in addition to thier extra rules most of which are just fun. Soem units like the Daemon Lords and Thunderhawk transporters are really for Apoc only since they are listed as Gargantuan Creatures and Superheavy Vehicles.

As for my vehicles I think its only fair considering that Space Marines have gotten their FAq updates to the game. Sisters still languish in forgotten codex hell until they are updated.