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geisthammer
01-27-2011, 09:49 AM
I recently bought Adeptis Rahn. one of the best looking minis ever imo. I bought this purely at the fact that it looks epic and could be fun to paint up. but have never played warmachine and I dont know if anyone in my area plays it. so before I commit myself to an army and buy, I would like some info on what its like to play, what are the factions, will it grow to 40k size, will I enjoy it and are The Formula P3 as good as citadel or better?

tonyzahn
01-27-2011, 11:55 AM
It plays almost like Magic: The Gathering in that it's more geared towards sneaky combos than 40k. You can do all sorts of sneaky tricks with your models, and the possibility for assassination victories means that the game's never lost until the game ends. The most fun thing (imho) are power attacks. Your warjacks (and warbeasts in Hordes) can slam enemy models into each other, headbutt them to the ground, or even pick them up and throw them at things.

You're not likely to play games the size of 40k games. It can certainly be done, but since every model in WM attacks individually, with separate rolls for "to hit" and damage, it can get time-consuming once you get in the 100+ pts range.

As for the paint comparison... P3s are pretty nice. I haven't used the citadel paints since before they introduced the foundation stuff though, so I can't really make a comparison. I hear GWs washes are really good though. Personally I use a bunch of different brands of paint: P3, Reaper, Vallejo... they all have their uses.

navajas
01-27-2011, 11:57 AM
I recently bought Adeptis Rahn. one of the best looking minis ever imo. I bought this purely at the fact that it looks epic and could be fun to paint up. but have never played warmachine and I dont know if anyone in my area plays it. so before I commit myself to an army and buy, I would like some info on what its like to play, what are the factions, will it grow to 40k size, will I enjoy it and are The Formula P3 as good as citadel or better?

Backwards:

Paint is a personal and subjective product. Once I tried P3 I never bought another chromatic jar from Citadel. When I started using them P3s metallics were HORRIBLE, so I continue to use Citadel's. P3 may have improved, but Bolt Gun is so good there's no real reason to stop using it. I find P3 chromatics far, far batter than Citadel. They have more pigment, cover better, mix better, etc...

Short answer: P3 for color, Citadel for metallic.

I have 10s of thousands of 40k points spread across Orks, Eldar, Sororitas and Tau. I've played the game since Rogue Trader. We usually play 2000 point games, but vary from 500 up to 4000 or so. We played a couple Battlebox games of Warmachine via proxy, mostly because of simple burnout. This has happened regularly for my nerdherd because as I said, we've been playing 40k for 20 years. I can honestly say for the first time through this process that if I ever play another game of 40k it will be for nostalgia sake and I'm drunk.

In our first couple games of Warmachine, WITH THREE OR FOUR MODELS ON THE TABLE, I made numerically more decisions, and those decisions were more important, in 45 minutes, than I would have playing a 2000 point 40k game for three hours. Put simply, Warmachine is a VASTLY superior rule set. The mechanics are not convoluted, but the game is almost infinitely deeper, in large part because it is not written with the assumption you are a cognitively median 14 year old.

Now, the game rules do not an entire hobby make. It is hard to shake the comfy and familiar setting of 40k. Fiction wise Hordemachine is solid, but, it can probably never be as... uhm... encompassing, familiar, present. If you didn't grow up with this lore though it's likely not a factor for you as it is for us.

Also, the models. Entirely subjective. I LOVE my new Merc models. Just about around exactly three quarters of what Privateer makes I find artistically superior to Citadel, some are butt ugly. However, I could not personally be more tired of the Imperium's aesthetic so much of this is simply a welcome change. I would so much rather look at my grungy dock loading Sea Dog 'jack than another in an endless parade of increasingly silly grimdark gothic goofs, but, like I said, 20+ years.

Of note is the hugely different business models of Privateer and GW. Privateer prices their models based on materials cost. GW prices their models based on point cost/power level. (Two sprues of Terminators cost nothing more to make than four sprues of Guardians, yet cost, what? $15 more?) This is hard to get used to. For instance, when I was planning my Sea Dogs I was confronted with a new quandary. The Commodore Cannon is 4 points. I loved it. Aiyana & Holt are also 4 points. I love them. Now, in GW land, this would mean they would be priced very similarly. But with PP Aiyana & Holt come in a blister for like $12, and the Commodore is $40 or something. Not pro or con, but it's different, so worth mentioning.

That said, there is another BIG difference. PP has to convert people, they know this. Most people who have the will and desire to play a table game with toy soldiers have at least SOME investment or history or knowledge of 40k... that is some hook they probably need to snip to get you to try their game. So, their business model reflects that. Take the difference in Battleboxes and GW Battleforces. In a Battlebox (for $40) you get rules, full color stat cards, and a legitimately playable force of quality models. This isn't a "playable" force as in boring bare minimums: it'll play an extremely engaging game as I mentioned above.

Citadel Battleforce or whatever they're called are designed, specifically, to **** you. Most don't even conform to the organization chart. You drop $90 (or more these days, not sure) and can't even play a game by the rules. They're desire to hook you is to have you make a $100 purchase that can't even be played without spending $50 on a rule book, and another $50 or more on models to SUPPORT that battleforce.

Remember, it's not my intention to bash. I've had decades of enjoyment with GW's game/hobby. They have, however, been hit in the market with a greatly superior product. I have stacks and stacks of models from GW, and every once in a while I might play a game with them. Maybe. But until their rules treat me like an adult, and their business model treats me like a customer, I can't see me ever buying another model or book from them. Any spare money I have to spend on toys is going to Privateer Press.

For what it's worth, ever single member of our nerd herd feels much the same way. There are varying amounts of left over, uhm... regret / addiction / remorse at all but dropping 40k. I mean, they all have acknowledged they have way more fun playing the game, but to a greater or lesser degree we all have an elephant stashed in the corner worth $1000s and $1000s. Some of us ignore that better than others.

Quaade
01-27-2011, 02:38 PM
The short answer about War Machine is that you have one broken army fighting another broken army, if you don't, something is wrong.

The best armies are built around gimmicks, if you happen to meet a gimmick that shuts down your gimmick, you lose, and vice versa.
Instead of balancing the game, PP's tournament format states that you should bring 2 armies to any given tournament, just in case your primary gimmick gets a bad matchup.

Bentron
01-27-2011, 03:43 PM
Wow, Navajas basically put his feelings into text format. Well done.

As a new player (1 month in) I would suggest getting the Battle Box and giving it a try. Within my gaming circle, there are 5 of us who have, and none of us have regretted it. For the low price and great models, it's a steal. Essentially it'll give you close to a 15pt force in a game where most of the time you play between 25-35pts. Each Battle Box is balanced well enough to be a fair fight between it and each other Battle Box.

Unfortunately, Retribution doesn't have a Battle Box that I've seen, so that can make things difficult for the Retribution player. Still, after going to about 4-5 different stores, our Ret player has recently found a couple Heavy Jacks for his Ret force.

If you're as lucky as I am, then you'll have a circle of friends who all choose different factions (we've got 5 of 6 represented as no one has chosen the Mercs yet) and you can have some amazing games. As Navajas mentioned, it's tactically sound, really exciting and overall just dirty violent action packed great fun.

Major criticisms I've heard are that it's simply the biggest game of Paper-Rock-Scissors you can play, and that some of the models aren't the hottest. Overall, we've had each faction hold their own quite well against each other faction, and we've all lost and all won a few games. I think I may have the best track record thusfar (I play Cygnar), but I think it's simply a product of our inexperience with the game and a little luck on my side. Once we all become more proficient, I think my victories will have a quick drop in %.

I highly recommend it, and after being a GW player for almost 18 years, I would say both games are good.

wittdooley
01-27-2011, 06:37 PM
I'll chime in.

They're completely different, yet both engaging in their own right.

*Warmahordes plays much faster.
*Warmahordes requires a lot of decisions to be made, certainly more than 40k.
*Warmahordes requires you to have a good idea of the synergies of your opponents army to be successful and competitive. This can lead to lots of cursing.
*Warmahordes models are more static and less poseable, though as a whole VERY good. They're early warbeasts are the extreme exception, with many requiring a great deal of work before ready to paint.
*Warmahordes has a FANTASTIC support program through PP with campaigns and other things that really make the game system fun to keep playing.
*Warmahordes, as explained earlier, doesn't have the vastness of background. The stories it does have are engaging and fun... there just really needs to be more.

So those are some points. I play both. I love both for entirely different reasons.

Image
01-27-2011, 11:35 PM
I'm the Menoth player in Bentron's group and there is some definite adjustment that goes along with playing 40k for several years to Warmachine. For instance, Warmachine plays differently in that each unit activates separately and goes through their phases separately. I.E. You choose unit A, move, shoot/attack and then move on to the next unit. In 40k, you move your whole army and then your whole army shoots/assaults. This simple change makes it a dynamically different game. As this allows you to use your units synergies interestingly (clearing lanes with one unit so the other unit can charge through) and requires careful attention to the order of activation on your units.

I further agree that the game does offer a lot of combinations that teeter on ridiculousness at times, but perhaps due to our inexperience, have not seen one synergy win an entire game. To me, it always feels like there's options. Plus, as mentioned, the game isn't over until it's over. I've seen 40k games go on for 2+ hours where you're just waiting to lose. In Warmachine - and again, this may be group dynamic - but even the most decisive looking games can end in a surprising loss. Last night, I was fighting against our Khador friend and had destroyed the majority of his army while he had killed a couple of models. I got overconfident and moved my caster forward, only to watch as he sailed his caster towards mine. Once his caster got to me, a few attacks later, he had won the game. Personally, I find that as frustrating as I do challenging. The casters are absolutely akin to Queen pieces in chess. It's easy to get confident with them, but they'll die as easily as most other pieces.

The value of the game, I find, is strong. You can have a decent 35 point army with only spending a couple hundred dollars. I consider this akin to a 1500 point army in 40k, but in 40k you're often looking at nearly one hundred dollars for a single unit with a transport. This isn't to say that there aren't monetarily expensive options in Warmachine - there are - but overall the game is more affordable. With that said, by changing your warcaster, you get a vastly different approach to your army. I think a proper comparison is the Codex: Space Marines book wherein you can alter your special character to have an incredibly different playstyle. I like this because it gives you further mileage out of a single army, but nonetheless due to the synergies involved in each list, you may need to further invest in pewter dolls.

Pewter. There are few plastic models in the line; if you're like me, you'd rather have a full army of plastic dudes than an army with even a single unit of pewter dudes. Pewter lacks customization, adds weight to transport, and requires further care in the line of varnishes. Not a huge deal, but it's definitely something to consider.

As for the paints, I've only tried a few different P3 colours and they seem fine to me. For the most part, I quite like GW colours and found that P3 were pretty comparable. I like that Menoth white highlight isn't quite as pure/bright of a white as skull white is and so appreciate having that option. Nonetheless, in terms of texture/quantity, I'd say comparable, though maybe due to store pricing differences, I found P3 was quite a bit cheaper than GW paints.

Anyhow, to sum up: Warmachine is a great game and requires little investment. Games can be quick or take a while, but generally still quicker than a 1500 point 40k game. If you have people to start it up with, I'd definitely suggest the lot of you get a couple of battle boxes and give it a shot. The battle boxes work perfectly with the starter rules provided and give you the rules for each unit contained. Great value and a nice, inviting way to start the game. :)

DarkLink
01-30-2011, 03:51 PM
The warmachine ruleset is also much tighter than 40k. The rules are very precisely worded and defined, and very well thought out. Issues are rare compared to 40k, and unlike GW PP will give direct, official answers to rules questions rather quickly. No need to wait 6 months for an FAQ that answers a dozen questions other than the one you wanted to know.

I'm rather new to Warmachine, but I prefer the balance in it compared to 40k so far. PP keeps each faction continuously updated via smaller releases, rather than waiting years and years to fix problems. And Warmachine doesn't have any "best builds" the way 40k does. You can have neigh countless combos that, played well, can leave your opponent dazed. PP seems to balance things by making everything so good that you can't decide what to take, which is awesome.

Warmachine is very attention intensive, though. Misplacing a model by a half an inch can lose you the game in some situations. Great for tournaments and competition, but sometimes it can be more fun to just relax and throw your mass of orks at your enemy. 40k and Warmachine are both fun, in different ways.



*Warmahordes, as explained earlier, doesn't have the vastness of background. The stories it does have are engaging and fun... there just really needs to be more.


You can't really blame them, though, as Warmachine hasn't been around for 30 odd years.


Edit:

Oh, yeah, the metal models do suck (the metal part, not the models themselves). Metal is horrible. I despise metal. Plastic is infinitely better in virtually every way possible. Fortunately, PP is starting to figure that out, and is releasing more and more plastics.

thetallest
02-01-2011, 03:31 PM
Like others have said before me, I find Hordes (I have a warmachine army, but I really only play Circle) to be a much more tactically complex and flexible game than 40k/Fantasy. A lot of it is about finding synergies within your own forces and knowing/learning how to shut down what your opponent can do.

I would say in my experience between the games is that there is no pyrrhic victory in Warmachine/Hordes as there is in Fantasy/40k. For the most part, you either win or you lose - you can't just grind each other to a pulp and hope that the numbers will fall your way at the end. You have to be continually mindful of objectives (they kick in usually on the second or third turn of the game) and ensure that you are at least contesting the victory conditions starting on the important turn. Add to that the possibility of the caster kill makes your decisions mean an aweful lot more than they do in 40k and Fantasy. In the games I've played, it isn't unheard of to use (and lose) a valuable component of your army as a lure in order to be able to win either by objective or by caster kill.

Anyways, as others have said before, feel free to grab a small force (battle boxes are usually a good idea, but do some research into them first because some are non-ideal) and play out the quick start rules. One of my favorite formats after the basics of Battlegroup control have been learned is the 1-1-1-1 15 point format (1 caster, one warbeast/jack, one unit, one solo).

Inquisitor Hate Machine
02-27-2011, 10:45 AM
I'll chime in with more reading materials!

this was written by a press ganger (PP's version of Outriders / Kommandos)
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/10/editorial-how-to-discuss-warmachine.html

This was written by my local Press Ganger
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/whether-warmachine.html

a word on game mechanics
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/warmachine-nuts-bolts-basic-game.html

worth reading
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/09/warmachine-fun-is-subjective.html

a word on how to choose a faction
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/12/warmachine-how-to-choose-faction-part-i.html

and now my comments...

Ive always like the idea and look of warmachine, but I was into 40K so deep that I didnt want to branch out with those other guys who played at that other store. Also, Mk1 had some serious issues after a while with creep. so when mk2 came out, I decided to pick up the rule book and give it a read, then picked up a battle box and played some BB games then blew absolutely as much money on my Khador army as I would blow on a full 2000pt 40K army. you CAN play warmachine cheaply, but it gets expensive as you push into the 50/75/100 pt range.

I chose to give up on GW not because I disklike their rules (I do hate their rules, but its easy enough to play) nor do I hate their models (their models are freaking amazing. I will never say PP has better models than GW, GW does that **** right.) but I dislike GW as a company.

GW is a British company that is publicly traded and heavily invested by retirement funds for British pensioners. Having shareholders means they have to make decisions on dividends. They have to ensure that they pay at least some dividends each period, so they are less opt to make risky decisions and have less agility to respond to the market. They simply have to make sure they generate enough profits to pay their share holders at all times.

Privateer Press is an American owned private business. This means they only answer to themselves, and they assume all the risk and rewards. Its purely a Risk/Reward situation. The higher the risk, the greater the reward. This is why they are constantly interfacing with their customers, watching the tournament scene very closely and do things like FREE PUBLIC playtesting (they gave away all the rules for Warmachine and hordes for MONTHS so people could play them and give feed back.That is a ballsy move that resulted in a very refined rules system.

Being American, I chose to send my money to an American company that I can believe in, one with agility and tenacity to push for new and better things instead of trying their hardest to, as I believe GW does, Fleece their loyal customers. Remember, GW makes their games to sell their models to teenagers.

Again, this is all my opinion. your mileage may vary

doom-kitten
02-27-2011, 11:02 AM
To be honest I thought the OP sounded very much like a commericail and it amused me, I'd don't know much about companies but I've played Warmachine for about a year now with my awesome Cygnar guys and I have to say I've never run into a scenario I haven't enjoyed. Was horribly shocked and irked howver when a unit of bile thralls self destructed and wiped out all my stormguard thats was bad 3 uglies denotated and bye bye stormgaurd. I find it to be rather fast paced which is great as I can play it quickly and during a limited time span such as break and tournaments can have more games due to a lower demand on timings. And it's looks really good on the table top sure the jacks are rather top bulky and some look silly like the ironclad how that thing says upright is a mystery actually you could that about almost every cygnar heavy jack. But all in all it's a great game very enjoyable and relatively easy to pick up.

Denzark
02-27-2011, 11:34 AM
I am a long term 40k player and joined a group that played Warmachine (also the pre-painted mechwarrior stuff). So I played a couple of timees to be polite. Some thoughts (I caveat this was 1sted warmachine).

1. I liked the minatures, and the fact you can get by with £100 or much less to get an entire army.
2. The game system was OK - yes very 'tight' by which I mean unconfusing rules without the ambiguity of 40K.

However:

3. Our average battles seemed to take place in a close knit confines - 5-7 turns of 40K might not get you much manouevre but you get more than the 'straight up the middle' feel of WM.
4. The entire battle had a 'quidditch Golden snitch' type vulnerability - kill the opposing spellcaster fella and you would normally win.

Warmachine was an amusing diversion when you wanted a skirmish game with not many units, and many decisions for each unit. It lets you play more tactics but less strategy.

Recommendation? If you want an all arms battle where no one part of the table is the focus for winning (unless a special mission condition) 40K is your thing. If you want skirmishes, play necromunda. If you want average steam-punk renta-fluff and you hate GW, you could do worse than WM.

DarkLink
02-27-2011, 02:47 PM
I heard a good analogy somewhere I can't remember, that went something like this: Warhammer 40k is like playing guitar hero, and Warmachine is like playing a real guitar.

If you want to just hang out with friends and have fun, you can just pick up and play 40k. Skill is variable. You can play it on high difficulties, but it won't ever quite approach the skill required to play an actual guitar. You play it because you don't need to have that skill. You and your friends can form a band right on the spot and start rockin', something you can't always do with an actual guitar.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I like it.



I'll also add that at both the scale of 40k and of warmachine, there's not a huge amount of strategy in either. It usually comes down to "I can kill him in melee, so I'm going to charge", or "I can outshoot him so I'll kite his army a bit", or something pretty simple like that. Once you've decided on your basic approach, then everything comes down to tactics, where Warmachine becomes like chess to 40k's checkers.