Ravenwing Dark Angels

[Legoklods]

So I'm thinking about making a Ravenwing army (no, I don't expect to win either.) but as for Ravenwing Attack Squadron, I was wondering:
I it all just one unit fighting together? I mean bikes AND Land Speeder? Or do they work as two separate units?
:confused:

And where does it say anything about that in the codex?

[Terraforcer]

Each squad of ravenwing are a single troop choice which is composed of up to 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, and 1 landspeeder. You may run them all together or split them up. The land speeder and attack bike may move freely from the other bikes but don't have to. Also, you can take a squad of 6 bikes and run them in 2 units of 3.

[steelmage99]

Remember that when taken this way the Land Speeder is scoring.

[Culven]

Each squad of ravenwing are a single troop choice which is composed of up to 6 bikes, 1 attack bike, and 1 landspeeder. You may run them all together or split them up.
Actually, as I recall, the only option is to split the Bikes into 2 squads of 3. The Ravenwing Attack Squad rules (the same rules which make the Land Speeder a Scoring Unit) forces the player to run the Attack Bike and Land Speederseparately from the Bikes.

[SeattleDV8]

Ok, you're all wrong.
Except Culven of course.
The Ravenwing attack squad is a fast attack choice.
If you take Sammael you may take them as troops.
You may buy 3 bikes and then add another 3 bike and/or an attack bike.
If you have 6 bikes you may buy a land speeder with HB/assault cannon.

The bikes are scoring if they are troops.
The attack bike and land speeder are always scoring ,troops or not.

When you deploy the Bikes (if you have 6) can combat squad into 3 each or keep all 6.
The attack bike and the land speeder has to split off into their own units, no choice.
A full RAS will have 3 KPs (4 if you combat squad the bikes)
The bikes can outflank unless you have the Land speeder.DA FAQ

DA codex pg 27 and 85.

[Terraforcer]

I believe you may be right about the land speeder. But I am pretty sure you can run th AB with the unit. But i traded all my DA stuff to a friend so I can't be sure.

[Terraforcer]

Oh. Okay. Thanks, I will let my friend know about the outflanking.

[WereWolf_nr]

Scoring units can not be a vehicle; the land speeder is out, even if it is a troop choice. BRB scoring units section.

[Tynskel]

Scoring units can not be a vehicle; the land speeder is out, even if it is a troop choice. BRB scoring units section.

no, that's not true. Scoring units cannot be vehicles, unless the Codex overrides this rule.

Example: A Unit of Dark Angels Tactical Squad purchases a Dedicated Transport Razorback. The Razorback is a Troop Choice. It cannot claim, because it is a vehicle.

Now a Ravenwing Bike Squad purchases the Land Speeder. The rules specifically state that the Land Speeder is a Scoring unit (it is not even a troops choice!). This overrides the rulebook.

These are subtle things that people did not realize that the Dark Angels have---- reasons to help explain why GW has been slow to upgrade their wargear--- they already have some awesome rules.

Any squad in Dark Angels that combat squads can claim--- devastators, veterans, ect.

[dvs1]

Sorry man, but didn't the new DA faq clear up the little combat squads count as scoring? "The third paragraphʼs last sentence should be ignored, and the penultimate sentence should be changed to “If you decide to break the unit down, then each Combat Squad is treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point.”"

I believe that they mean to clear up the little scoring confusion. In 4th ed., all infantry would count as scoring unless specifically indicated, hence the original wording of the paragraph ( DA p. 23). The faq specifically addresses that old loop hole, and clearly states that it is no longer the case as they now count as 'seperate units' instead of 'scoring units'. I hope everyone had fun while it lasted...

As for the RAS counting as scoring when combat squaded, basically the same thing applies. OLD wording described the squads when you split them as scoring, but keep in mind once again in 4th ed. dexes, virtually all units were described this way because at the time they could score. For the life of me I don't understand why GW fixed one set of wording but missed the other. Why even take Sammael, or list HIS rule were RAS can be counted as troops if they already do just by splitting them?

I guess since they missed it the second time around, you could argue RAW to death. But frankly, I think thats pretty cheesy no matter how you justify it.

[SeattleDV8]

I guess since they missed it the second time around, you could argue RAW to death. But frankly, I think thats pretty cheesy no matter how you justify it.


Not cheesy at all, you have to have 6 bikes to buy an overpriced and very weak ( AV10) skimmer that scores.
It's also very clear in the codex that it does score.
DA Codex pg. 27 "...they always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model."

If they were going to change it they have should have done in any of the three DA FAQ's in 5th ed.
It's not that big a deal, but it is the way it is.

[dvs1]

Did you read my previous post on why it was worded that way at all? Anyways, like i said, i agree, they didn't catch it. You and I know they should have, but you know how they like to leave us all with something to argue about so. As i said earlier, by strict raw, you win. But we both know its just an exploitable oversight with rationales.

[FastEd]

Just to play devil's advocate here, how do you know it's just an oversight?

Keep in mind I'm not arguing either way, I don't take my RW as troops.

[dvs1]

Because the wording that describes the RAS as scoring if split into combat squads is the same as they ammended in the faq. In 4th ed., nearly Every unit counted as scoring, and were worded thus. Why would only the attack bike and LS count as scoring, when you had to buy the whole unit and split them? Inconsistent wording throughout editions is why. Why list Sammauel ability to take RAS as troops if they pretty much count as thus anyway? And please do not say so we can take min size RAS squads as scoring.... This arquement sounds a lot like a DoM debate, before the corresponding faq. People will beat RAW to death with their interpretation to get their one useful ability/rule , even though it goes against several others and breaks a few to get their desired outcome. Only the LS and AB scoring when split? Really?

[SeattleDV8]

What we think the intent is really doesn't mean anything, if you don't like it in your games, house rule it.
The fact that this is a very well known exception that has remained though several FAQ updates weakens your idea that it is an oversight.
Just like the DA scout bikes may not turbo-boost in the scout move, it's one of the little odd rules that you find in different codices.
That is what I debate, what the rules say.

Only the LS and AB scoring when split? Really?
Yes ,really.

[miksaa]

Why list Sammauel ability to take RAS as troops if they pretty much count as thus anyway?
So I can fit more bike squads in the FOC?

[dvs1]

Does anyone know if any tournaments allow this interpretation of the rules? That would probably be the deal breaker for me. I would love to take scoring vehicles with me to any major 40k event that do not require a unit upgrade like DAVU. Believe it or not i do play DA, but feel really bad about using such a loophole. But if that is the overALL consensus, then so be it.

[DarkLink]

It's not a loophole. The DA codex explicitly states that they're scoring units. Codex overrides BRB. Thus, they are scoring units. There's no interpretation or loopholes involved when a codex explicitly states something.

[Culven]

Does anyone know if any tournaments allow this interpretation of the rules? That would probably be the deal breaker for me. I would love to take scoring vehicles with me to any major 40k event that do not require a unit upgrade like DAVU. Believe it or not i do play DA, but feel really bad about using such a loophole. But if that is the overALL consensus, then so be it.
Every tournament I have attended, heard of, and read rules for has played by RaW. The codex states that they are scoring units, thus they are scoring units even if they don't meet the more general rules' requirements.

[Tynskel]

"You are toooooo big to claim that piece of terrain–here now, split into two, and now each of you can claim!"
Captain Dufusdorf, 5th Company
Dark Angels Chapter

[FastEd]

Does anyone know if any tournaments allow this interpretation of the rules? That would probably be the deal breaker for me. I would love to take scoring vehicles with me to any major 40k event that do not require a unit upgrade like DAVU. Believe it or not i do play DA, but feel really bad about using such a loophole. But if that is the overALL consensus, then so be it.

I checked the INAT, which is the FAQ used at the largest indy GT around, Adepticon (and you can find it on the Adepticon site here (http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=687)). It supports them as scoring, always, on page 45. That said, you don't have to agree. The INAT sometimes has rulings I don't agree with, in fact, and isn't the be all, end all, rules source. I personally use it for events I run because it's a resource that everybody can easily get to, as impartial as possible, free, and well, along with ready, made. Find what works for your group, and just make a note to check with tournament organizers when you play someplace else.

[Tynskel]

I checked the INAT, which is the FAQ used at the largest indy GT around, Adepticon (and you can find it on the Adepticon site here (http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=687)). It supports them as scoring, always, on page 45. That said, you don't have to agree. The INAT sometimes has rulings I don't agree with, in fact, and isn't the be all, end all, rules source. I personally use it for events I run because it's a resource that everybody can easily get to, as impartial as possible, free, and well, along with ready, made. Find what works for your group, and just make a note to check with tournament organizers when you play someplace else.

Wait, the INAT FAQ is ruling on a rule that has clearly stated what the rule does?

I hate that thing--- what a waste of time.

[Azrell]

Wait, the INAT FAQ is ruling on a rule that has clearly stated what the rule does?

I hate that thing--- what a waste of time.

If it was so clear why is there a 3 pages on it here? The INAT is a document that people have put a lot of work into so that people like us can have fun at a tourney without having to argue over vague or ambiguous rules. Don't knock it until you try it.

[steelmage99]

There are three pages of this because a lot of people fail at reading and basic rule-comprehension.

[Tynskel]

There are three pages of this because a lot of people fail at reading and basic rule-comprehension.

well said.

this is more of an issue that the codex says something, and someone else doesn't like it and is trying to 'debate' what it says.

[dethangel]

the FAQ does not change the fact that , DA ravenwing land speeder and attackbike are independant Scoring units. its in black and white. deal with it. the DA codex is horribly under powered and limited. so people please stop cryin about the landspeeders. it one of the only cool things left since they sacked the combat squad Loop Hole.

[Tynskel]

whee!!!

[CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO]

Sammy makes ravenwing attack squadrons count as troop choices as well as fast attack.If you take an attack bike or speeder in that unit they each count as well. I have another question relating to the ravenwing & hope its o.k. if i ask it here (seems to be a few fellow DA players on here).How do these full size squadrons deploy ? Can they be held in reserve? Do you have to take a squadron w/o a speeder to outflank?

[Nabterayl]

My best read is that, notwithstanding the fact that there are up to three units in an attack squadron (regular bikes, attack bike, and/or Land Speeder), the entire squadron must be deployed in the same way. The FAQ clarifies that an attack squadron with a Land Speeder cannot Outflank, and the only rationale I can see for this is because (i) the whole squadron has to be deployed or kept in Reserve together, and (ii) the Land Speeder does not have Scouts, and therefore cannot Outflank.

[SeattleDV8]

Correct Nab.
The full RAS squad, that is 6 bikes , an attack bike and a land speeder will be at least 3 units ( as the Bikes may Combat squad when deployed you could have 4)
The bikes are their own unit(s).
The attack bike and the land speeder "always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model"(DA codex pg 27)
The Bikes and the Attack Bikes do have the 'scout' special rule, the land speeder does not.
As the RAS count as a single unit until deployed they may not Outflank if the Land Speeder is part of the unit.
That said if the unit was deployed in the deployment 'phase' the bikes (and Attack bike ) could make their scout move as the Land Speeder is no longer a part of the unit.