ICs leaving units and moving through cover

[ElCheezus]

I've run into or seen this situation a few times recently: a unit with an IC are in difficult terrain. The controling player wants to move the unit and detatch the IC. They declare they're separating the IC, and roll 3d6 for the move through cover, becasue ICs are special like that. Then they roll 2d6 for the unit, and move them.

I've also seen cases of this where the player rolls them separately in order to gain extra inches of movement, for a charge or whatnot. Basically they get to roll 5d6 and choose the highest.

I'm pretty certain this is incorrect. p 48 has the relevant IC rules, and bullets #3 and #4 are the relevant entries. #3 says the unit moves at the rate of the slowest model. #4 says an IC leaves by moving out of coherency with the unit.

By #4, the IC is part of the unit when it starts moving, and they only leave the unit by ending their movement out of coherency, not by declaring the IC as having left. You intention to separate doesn't matter, only the ICs position after moving.

By #3, when the IC moves, it uses the 2d6 for difficult terrain since that's the speed of the slowest model. Since it's part of the unit until after moving, it doesn't get the 3d6 speed back until after it's already moved out of coherency.

So those are my reasons for saying an IC doesn't get 3d6 when they leave a unit in difficult terrain. Any takers? Preemptively, I'll mention that bullet #5 only concerns the shooting phase, since I think it was brought up in another thread.

[DarkLink]

An IC that detaches from a unit absolutely gets 3d6. You roll 3d6, and the IC can move that far. The unit, completely separate now, rolls 2d6. There's no 5d6 involved anywhere. The if the IC rolls a 5, and the unit a 3, the unit cannot use the 5. Vice versa if the IC rolls poorly compared to the unit.

Note that the BRB never states when an IC leaves a unit. It's just sometime in the movement phase. It simply states that in order to join a unit, the IC must be in coherency at the end of the movement phase. There's no reason to think that an IC cannot leave a unit at the begging of the movement phase and move separately.

[ElCheezus]

The 5d6 comes from the IC movnig the best of 3, then the unit moving the best of 2. If they're looking to assault, the front model is the only one that matters, and if the IC and unit join up at the end of it, that basically means they get the best of all five of those rolls to determine their frontmost model.

Actually, as I mentioned, the BRB states that in order to leave a unit, it must move out of coherency with the unit. That's the only way: movement. There is no option to declare it as suddenly separate before moving. And since they're together before moving, the IC has to use the speed of the unit's slowest model.

[somerandomdude]

I know I was the one who you called out (not in a bad way) in the other thread, and I apologize for not providing a more substantial argument (I don't have time at the moment) but I'd like to simply ask: When an IC leaves a unit, can that unit still move?

If the answer is yes, then why? Is it because the IC is not using the movement of the parent unit, and thus not subject to its movement restrictions? How can you be forced to move at the speed of the slowest model when the slowest model is not moving? (Note: I'm not talking about staying still, I'm talking about it having a separate move later)

Hypothetically, what would happen if part of the parent unit was in difficult terrain, but the IC was not? Would he then have to test to leave the unit, even though he himself is not moving through difficult terrain?

I recently had a rules discussion with my brother and cousin about Power from Pain and what happens when you kill an IC to shooting, but the unit doesn't die (we were not looking at the FAQ at the time). I began asking questions that were a bit too philosophical for 40k ("What does it mean to be independent?"), so I must apologize if my responses seem that way.

[ElCheezus]

My answer is that if the IC moves and the unit does not move at the same time, then no, the unit can not move later. Liken it to when you move a unit, but leave one model in place. You can't go back later in the movement and move that model. Since and IC and the unit it's joined to are the same unit until the IC leaves (which is after it moves out of coherency) they have to move at the same time.

In your other hypothetical situation, I'd say the IC needs to roll for difficult terrain, because he is part of the unit. It's the same idea with moving just one model of a unit. He doesn't gain any benefits from being an IC in that regard until after he's out of coherency.

As for "calling me out", it's all good. I wanted to make a new thread on this subject anyway, the other one was about a different topic. This came up in my game last night, so I thought it was time to see what the internet thought.

[miksaa]

I am sure the IC only roll 2D6 as:


An IC can only leave a unit in the movment phase.
An IC that is part of a unit that does not have "move throu cover" looses it as long as it is part of the unit, see p. 75 (ABR-rulebook).
All models in the combined unit moves as the slowest model in the unit.
An IC only leaves a unit after having moved out of coherency (in the movment phase).


So I see no reason why they would get 3D6, as the condition that slowes them changes after the finnished move, not before.

The only thing that breaks normal "difficult terrain" movment is the fact that if you choose to only move the IC then the unit can count as stationary for shooting pourpose.

[miksaa]

Note that the BRB never states when an IC leaves a unit. It's just sometime in the movement phase. It simply states that in order to join a unit, the IC must be in coherency at the end of the movement phase. There's no reason to think that an IC cannot leave a unit at the begging of the movement phase and move separately.

I really think you missed one important part of the rule, on page 48 (ABR-rulebbok) "INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS JOINING & LEAVING UNITS" bullet number four gives you the correct way to leave a unit:

An independent character can leave a unit during the Movment phase by moving out of coherancy distance with it.

So first he has to move while still part of the unit (even if out of coherancy while entering the movment phase) and move so he no longer are in coherancy with the unit. The unit can now move the same distance or remain stationary, as long as they keep out of coherancy with the IC.

[dwsculpts]

If I am reading the rules correctly the IC can leave a unit or join a unit by moving into or out of coherency with the unit. If your opponent rolled 3D6 move through cover for the IC to move it out of coherency, the IC left the unit. The unit can then move its 2D6 move through cover on its own but may not rejoin the IC.

It states in the first bullet the IC has to move so that he is within 2 inches of the unit during their movement phase.
so
The unit does not join the character. The character joins the unit.

[weeble1000]

What El Cheezus is arguing, and what I happen to agree with, is that once an Independent Character joins a unit there's only one unit until the conditions for the Independent Character to no longer be part of the unit are met.

If this is correct, an IC that starts a movement phase as part of another unit is treated like another model in that unit during the movement phase. All of the models are considered to be one unit and follow all of the movement rules except that in order to leave the unit, the IC must move out of coherency. Of course, this argument necessitates that the IC be able to move out of coherency.

The other argument seems to be that the IC always makes its own moves and it is only part of a unit if the model is within two inches of a model in another unit. This interpretation supposes that the IC is part of the unit for all purposes except movement (and other exceptions described in the rules, such as in close combat).

As an aside, I expect that this interpretation has implications beyond joining and leaving units.

In order to argue that the IC is only allowed to make its own move when leaving a unit, you have to make a distinction between the intention to leave a unit and actually being out of coherency. The verbiage about how the IC must move out of coherency may support that interpretation as it would cover the implicit issue of an IC model "intending" to leave a unit and then remaining in coherency, although in that case some might argue that as long as the IC moved out of coherency during its move it could end its move in coherency. I think the later part of that argument wouldn't be correct.

The reverse of the question posed in the original post is interesting. What happens if a unit with an attached IC is out of difficult terrain except for the IC? Must the unit make a difficult terrain check before moving? If the second interpretation is correct, then I think the answer would be no. Only the IC would be treated as being in difficult terrain, and would roll 3d6 and take the highest for movement.

[DarkLink]

The rules are very vague, but I would argue that the IC uses its own movement. A model within a unit is not normally allowed to move outside of coherency. The "An independent character can leave a unit during the Movment phase by moving out of coherancy distance with it" never actually allows the unit to do this. It does imply that ICs have a means to move out of coherency, but does not provide an actual mechanism. As such, I see the logical conclusion being that ICs can move independantly of the unit they are attached to, and whether or not they attach for the rest of the turn depends upon what the IC does with its movement.