What is the Orky balance between the Green Tide and Elites?

[Dellamorte]

Just because I like the variety and the sheer killiness of the elites I tend to field an army heavy with them, but a tricked out differentiated Nob squad can cost upwards of 600-700 points, and while in close combat few things can hold out against them, a smart player will usually kite them for as long as they can. On the other hand I can field a few squads of Boyz for the same cost, and hopefully they can hold out against long range attrition until they get close up to do what they do best.

In the tournaments around here they like to randomly pick the scoring so you never know from what game to what game what the objective is going to be. The Elites can’t Capture Objectives but Troops tend to be killed off in Annihilation, so one always has to balance their armies with a little of both. Yes, this is the age old question for the orks, quantity vs. quality, but I would like to hear some fellow Warboss preferences. What balance do you like best? Do you prefer trukks or battlewagons? Is it worth it to have a unit with both ‘ard armour and cybork? Aside from the cheesiness of teaming Snikrot and Ghazghkull, are kommandos worth the cost? Remember, this is an army that would have to face any one of the usual Objectives and enemy armies.

Now les’ get stuck in dere boyz!

[Mr.Pickelz]

i am a HUGE fan of the Green Tide approach, having your opponent have to think about his shooting phase and plan strategically, forces alot of people to rethink how their army is played, due to the HUGE amount of bodys being tossed at them, 6x (30man) boyz mobs with Ghazkull to lead them in their waaagh!

edit: with that said, it does take awhile to move said green tide, so you will want to find quicker ways of moving tons of models around. Oh and, avoid Lash dp's they or ordance templates are not your biggest ally.

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, the mid-point between an Elites army, and a Green Tide, is da Kult ov Speed!

Yes, grots and boyz, da Kult ov Speed 'as it all. Dakka, Krumpin, Killyness, and best ov all, SPEED!

In seriousness, the Kult may be your answer. You can have a tooled up Biker Nob squad (bane of everyone everywhere, and fixes your "kiting" issues), which counts as scoring with a Bikerboss (also brutal). Fill out with Trukk-mounted Boy squads (combined charges are your friend), larger Battlewagon-based mobz, and cheap buggies or Koptas for tank busting.

Worth a shot, anyway.

[Dellamorte]

The expression on opponent’s faces when I have fielded "The Green Tide" is priceless. Rarely have I faced an opponent with ordinance, but I have faced more than few with flamers which will definitely cut into the Boyz. Granted on my own, I can only put out one full squad of Boyz, but I’ve combined my army with others and gotten 6x squads of Boyz out there. Do you feel it is worth giving them all ‘Ard armour/cybork?

I do have a Nob biker squad with a squad of Deffkoptors for support. To have that group suddenly in their lines causes just as much panic as a green tide, but I have never had a comparable threat to keep the heat off of them so the opponent doesn’t turn all of its guns on them. A battle wagon isn’t fast enough, and a trukk doesn’t seem to be much of a threat. I don't have a regular warbike squad, would that work without being a sacrificial lamb?

For “shootiness”: Shoota Boyz squad, Lootaz squad, or Flash Gitz?

[blackarmchair]

Generally armour/cybork on boyz is not worth the points. Nobs yes, boyz no.

If you want some toughboyz, take 1 squad with mad dok give them all invulns. This gives them a 5+/4+ which is roughly equivalent to a Space Marine save. I've found this is very difficult to deal with.

[Drew da Destroya]

I've found that the Nob Bikerz can absorb more than their fair share of punishment, even if the enemy throws all his guns at them. Str8 hits go on the Warboss, so he still gets FNP, and the rest of the nobs can absorb anything less than that. Between the cover save and FNP, they're usually fine. You can extend this by wound-striping, if you're a git, but even without abusing the rules they're plenty survivable.

Plus, the real trick is that the Bikerz are the distraction unit. The enemy can't ignore them, or else they'll run rampant and slaughter everything. Meanwhile, your trukks, wagonz, boyz, etc... can march up and slaughter. You want all of the enemy guns pointed at your nobs.

For Shooty, it depends on what you're trying to do. Shoota Boyz are great (20 or 30 with 2/3 Big Shootas) for shredding infantry... just get them nearby, watch as even marines drown in dice, and then charge to finish off whatever you shot. Lootas take out light to medium vehicles. Flash Gitz are mainly for fun... they have a decent chance of rolling AP3 or better, and totally wiping out a unit of heavy infantry, but most people think they're too expensive and random to be worthwhile. More Dakka is a necessity to run them... the other two I usually don't bother with.

The Gitz are actually a favorite unit of mine, but I've got to admit that they aren't a "competitive" choice. If I'm bringing them, it's for fun, and I bring them one of two ways: 1 - 10, More Dakka, Painboy, attached Big Mek with KFF and possibly a Burna for CC. Stick them in a dragooned trukk or a Battlewagon.

2. - 10, More Dakka, Painboy, 3 Ammo Runts, Badrukk, Big Mek with KFF and Burna, Battlewagon. Big, expensive, and full of dakka.

Plus, they're a fun modelling project!

[Legoklods]

...

For Shooty, it depends on what you're trying to do. Shoota Boyz are great (20 or 30 with 2/3 Big Shootas) for shredding infantry... just get them nearby, watch as even marines drown in dice, and then charge to finish off whatever you shot. Lootas take out light to medium vehicles. Flash Gitz are mainly for fun... they have a decent chance of rolling AP3 or better, and totally wiping out a unit of heavy infantry, but most people think they're too expensive and random to be worthwhile. More Dakka is a necessity to run them... the other two I usually don't bother with.

The Gitz are actually a favorite unit of mine, but I've got to admit that they aren't a "competitive" choice. If I'm bringing them, it's for fun, and I bring them one of two ways: 1 - 10, More Dakka, Painboy, attached Big Mek with KFF and possibly a Burna for CC. Stick them in a dragooned trukk or a Battlewagon.

2. - 10, More Dakka, Painboy, 3 Ammo Runts, Badrukk, Big Mek with KFF and Burna, Battlewagon. Big, expensive, and full of dakka.

Plus, they're a fun modelling project!

You forgot something very important about shooty ork lists... all the things that aren't orkz!:eek:
Killa kans with grot-zookas are FABULOUS for killing droves of light infantry and big zzzap gunz will deal with land raider and stuff. they propperly wont kill it (or even scratch it) but 3 in a unit will chain-stun it for the entire game (great fun to see your opponents face explode with frustration!:D).

[Drew da Destroya]

Good point, I was really just going off of his list.... I heavily endorse Grotzooka-bearing Kanz. They're awesome against anything with legs... I've gotten upwards of 15 hits on a marine unit with mediocre scatters, and pretty much wiped the squad as a result. They aren't bad in CC, either, since they're swinging a S10 power weapon. Just have to watch out for certain squads, like Thunderhammer or Powerfist-bearers. You can stay pretty lucky against Krak grenades, but they'll eventually drag you down... and stay far away from Monstrous creatures or other dreads.

I'm not a huge fan of Zzap gunz, but you have a good point with chain-stunning... although I think you have to at least Glance the thing first, which isn't that reliable. I really like Kannons, though, especially with a Shokk Attack Mek hanging around. Str 8 to pop transports, S4 blasts to hit squishy stuff, and the SAG gets to target whatever it wants since Artillery Crew can choose a different target. Plus, he can steal Ammo runts if need be... although I tend to save those for the Kannons.

[Da Gargoyle]

I game Eldar and recently had a series of games against an Ork, usually at a 1000 points. His mob looked like this

HQ - Big Mek with forcefield
Elite - 14 Lootas with Deff Gunz
Elite - 10 Burna boyz
Elite - 9 Kommandos + Nob with klaw
Troop - 11 shoota boyz + Nob with klaw & trukk
Troop - 11 shoota boyz + Nob with klaw & trukk
Troop - 11 shoota boyz + Nob with klaw & trukk

In deployment his trukks laahger up as close to his boundary as possible with the burners & Big Mek in the centre of the laagher. 1st turn the boys hop out of the trukk and the burners & mek hop in. All 3 trukks sweep accross the table relying on the meks force field for cover save. Then the burner template is used from the trukk, (Positioned in between the other two to minimise targeting). Any troops the burner hits cop ten times the number of wounds inflicted. He ususally goes after my assault troops first.

His deff gunz fire at my skimmers and he has never failed to bring one down each turn.

His kommandos flank march, lets face it, it is a 2 in 3 chance you will get the table side you want. They shoot and then assault the target, usually a long range fire team trying to get his lootas to run away.

The things he can't control are, who goes first, So far him every game (11 of them).
My snipers who average one kill every 3 games and have never, in 5 years pinned anyone.
My fire dragons, although he rolls a disproportionate number of cover saves for his trukk and I don't roll 6's for to attach my melta bombs (his vehicles always move).

And he uses waagh with his boyz when they get in assaulting range. He does alright with those tactics in general.

[Dellamorte]

Have no fear Drew, I was asking for stuff outside my list, I’m just looking for army combinations and tactics that other people prefer.

I’ve never thought of teaming a squad of FlashGitz with a BigMek KFF. I’ve appreciated the sheer destruction of the SAG (with the needed ammo runtz) even though it is rather random. It is at least more reliable than a Weirdboy. My Biker unit I’ve deployed as Nobz and as Warbikerz, it just depends on how many points I get to play with. I’ve just started putting together a Loota squad, but I haven’t seen if they are worth the buck for the bang. I’ve also never used or seen a zzzap gun used; I have my squad of lobbaz that I use to barrage anything soft and squishie. But I don’t have much that cracks armor and vehicles other than my power klaws (which I have a plethora of… and I know what a plethora means *laugh*). I’ve also given thought to using a TankBusta squad; the sheer humor of a bombsquig might just be the price of admission.

I do love my killa kans and deff dread. I give my Kans grotzooks and rokkits, and my deff dread is all close combat claws. I usually use them as my big threat, to get my trukk loads of Nobz and MegaNobz in close. My issue is that the walkers can’t take advantage of the Waaagh, and without fail my opponent has an army with maxed out heavy support (tanks, rhinos, fire dragons, biovore, etc). My issue when I take those armies out is that I can win by attrition, but usually lose in capturing objectives.

Gargoyle’s opponent army seems very killy! I’ve never seen an ork army so set for long-range. I may have to try that, for the most part all of my efforts are to keep my power klaws alive so they can get in close. I would love to see a full squad of burna boyz on the move. I do have a Kommando team, but I go with Snikrot as the leader, his Assault and ability to attack from any edge is beyond useful. I really would like to see a Green Tide army of shootas though. Yes, orks can’t hit the broadside of a barn, but with the sheer number of shootas, they are going to be hitting a lot of things, and I would have fewer issues with being kited.

What do you think Legoklods and Drew? Shoota Green Tide Army?

[blackarmchair]

Something to consider when kitting out Deff Dreads is 2x Skorchas, 2x DCCW Grot Riggers and Armour Plates. This build clocks in at only 100pts and is really effective. 2x Skorchas are awesome at grilling infantry and have a chance (albeit a small one of affecting armour) plus your Dread is very hard to disable. Stuns and Shaken mean little to you, Weapon destroyed? Well you have 4 of them. Immobilized? You have grot riggers and a big mek.

This Dread is very hard to stop and will likely soak up more than its fair share of fire and actually make it to your opponent's lines.

[Drew da Destroya]

If you're going full on Green Tide, then I'd say Shootas are the way to go. The extra range and shot really help out over the extra CC attack when you're footslogging. 2 or 3 30 boy mobz, plus a mek or two with KFF, would be a solid base. You're going to have to watch out for deep-striking flamers (ever have Obilts deep strike close enough to twin-flamer you? It hurts!), and the stupid Blood Angels dread with cheat-talons.

Tankbustas got a bad rap when the codex came out, mainly because everyone thought of the nightmare situation of facing an army with one vehicle sitting in LOS of them, but waaaaaaaaaaaay out of range... which'd make the unit useless. In today's mech-heavy environment, though, it's not hard to get within 24" of a tank. Tankhammas seem like blast, too (pun intended), so I'd say they're worth proxying for a couple games. That being said, most of my own tankbusting comes from Kannons, Klaws, and Deffrollas, sometimes including some twin-linked rokkits from Buggies or Koptas. Lootas take out light mech, or try to stun medium tanks so my klaws can reach them.

[Dellamorte]

I find it interesting that most here are going with the “Green Tide” concept. My original army design was based on the Green Tide with a few “for the Gork of it” models (i.e. BigMek with SAG, Gretchin Lobba Squad, Snikrot and Kommandos). However, without fail the group I go against now, fights armor heavy… and I mean HEAVY. I’ve seen Apocalypse battles that didn’t bring in the sheer amount of vehicles I’ve seen in a 1750 point game. So little by little I’ve had to adjust my squads to have higher survivability and more armor cracking ability. I’ve had to move from a warbike squad, to a nob squad; Kommandos to a differentiated nob squad w/ painboy; a warboss with megnobz, etc. Little bit by little bit my army can survive the first few rounds of combat and cut through just about every vehicle type, but unfortunately it’s pretty much overkill (I know what you are thinking… there is no such thing as overkill). However it is anti-climactic when I finally get a squad up close, I level 24+ power klaw attacks (and half that many big choppas attacks) at their bright shiny tank, and take it out in one swipe.

I may have to build an 30x ork Shoota squad (one of the styles I have yet to try). I still want to see how my flashgit squad w/ Mad Dok Grotsnik plays out in tournament play, but a Shoota Squad backing up a Nob Squad might be just the thing to crack the nut, and then tear apart its gooey insides.

So, Kommandos with rokkits or burnas?

Was a consensus made with which is better, FlashGitz or Lootas?

I look forward to seeing the kind of havoc I can cause with the tankbustas, I don’t even think many of the others would know what to expect.

So far the biggest issue I’ve had with my Dred and Kans has been battlefield placement. If I put them in different areas they get picked off, if I put them together one or the other gets in the way of forward movement (Mork help me if Dred gets wrecked and I have to move my Kans around the freshly made impossible terrain)

[Drew da Destroya]

I don't play tournaments, although my friends can be fairly competitive. I tend to play a "hybrid" horde, I guess.

At least one 30-boy shoota mob, 3x big shootas, klaw.

Probably around 2 Trukks full of sluggas

Bikerboss, 5 Bikernobz, usual loadout is 1 klaw, Waagh banna, Dok, Bosspole. Kombi-skorchas if I have points

Then I fill in with either Kanz, Lootaz, Gitz, or Kommandos. Sometimes Stormboyz or Koptas. Kannons and the SAG-Mek are common, too.

I'll vary it up, obviously, and do crazy things like Deffwing or a Deffrolla demolition derby, but above is my "normal" list.


On your questions, I don't think I'd pair Grotsnik with the Flash Gitz. They don't really get anything out of it that they can't get normally, and his pseudo-Rage can mess up their shooting. Better to just give them a regular Dok, and stick Grotsnick in with a big boyz mob, I'd think.

I built my Kommandos to have both Rokkit and Burna options, but I think I've only brought the rokkits once. They pretty much always miss, and the Burna is a lot more fun, reliable, and versatile.

On Gitz vs Lootas, in a "competitive" environment, I'd say Lootas are better. This isn't to say that Gitz aren't useful, and they're definitely fun, but they're generally points-inefficient, and aren't able to threaten light vehicles like the Lootas can.

With Dredz and Kanz, you may want to try bringing along a Mek with a Kustom Force Field. It gives them a 4+ cover save (obscured), which is awesome. Should help prevent them from being blown up too easily. I try to use them as an armored wall, with my mobz hiding behind the Kanz until they get close enough to cause some damage. This way, the KFF gives the Kanz a 4+ cover, then the Kanz give the boyz (and mek) following behind a 4+ cover.