Space Marine 1500 Pti

[Uncleleng]

Hi everybody,

This is my firt post here on BolS, i'm realy sorry for my bad english but it's not my firts language.
This is the list i'm plaing, but i need some advice becouse i can't deliver heavy damege

HQ
Psyker 125 Pts
Terminator Armour, Powers: Null Zone, Gate

TROOPS
Tactical Squad 10 Models 190 Pts
Lascannon, Flamer, Combiflamer
Razorback 75 Pts
TL Lascannon

Tactical Squad 10 Models 190 Pts
Lascannon, Flamer, Combiflamer
Razorback 75 Pts
TL Lascannon

Scout Squad 5 Models 105 Pts
Power Fist, MeltaBomb

FAST
Land Speeder Storm 65 Pts
Multi Melta

Land Speeders 2 Models 180 Pts
Typhoon ML, Heavy Bolter

Land Speeders 3 Models 210 Pts
Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

ELITE
Assault Terminator Squad 7 Models 280 Pts
5 Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, 2 2xLightning Claws

[Tynskel]

two suggestions:

1) maybe switching to shooty terminators maybe of more use--- every time they teleport, they have to stand still for a round. Limits the usefulness of Gate of Infinity.

2) you might want to invest in Teleport Homers, so you do not have to roll your scatter dice to lose anyone to the warp. Never underestimate the power of the warp!

[Tyrsday]

I'd think about making them regular Terminators like he said, but dropping one and picking up a Cyclone launcher and 2 chainfists for the same price and extra heavy damage.

I'm assuming you plan on Combat Squading the Tactical Squads with the Lascannon hanging back on your objectives and the flamer going forward in the Razorback to take your opponent's objectives?

[Splug]

You actually have a lot of heavy anti-tank in the list; 4 lascannons, 4 missiles, and 4 multi-melta's is plenty for 1500. One problem you're probably running into is that all of your vehicles are very vulnerable. Those are some very expensive AV10/AV11 vehicles. I suspect the root of your problem isn't in having too few tank-destroying weapons, but in having very little survivability of your own.

Lascannon razorbacks can work, but they need to be in cover if you want to fire them with any sort of reliability. As things stand, your front line is going to be those razorbacks, and you'll often be reliant on getting them across the field to deliver the tactical marines to an objective. You need something with higher armor to sit in front of them and provide either cover or a complete LoS screen. Good choices are predators, vindicators, or a land raider. I also prefer las/plas razorbacks over TL lascannons, especially given that these will be moving toward objectives on the other side of the field and getting the plasma guns into range.

As already mentioned, those assault terminators are going to have a hard time actually launching an assault with gate - you can get them there, but then have to weather a storm of fire followed by potentially getting charged yourself. It's a durable squad so it may survive - but it is very unlikely to do enough damage to justify the cost after that. Solutions are to replace it with a squad of storm bolter terminators, where they can blink in and fire immediately, or give them a land raider as a transport instead.

Six land speeders is a bit overkill at this point cost. It's easy enough to get cover for the typhoon speeders, but the multi-melta gunboats will be more likely than not making a very expensive suicide trade - if you take down anything smaller than a land raider with those, they will not earn their points back. Your list is very light on melta weaponry without them however, so another solution will need to be used if they swap out.

The storm scouts are a fun gimmick. They work against certain armies, especially if you get to go first. However, the driver on the speeder is BS3 - banking on them to destroy a vehicle is setting yourself up for disappointment, and then the scouts being stuck out for return fire. Also, there's not much point to putting a meltabomb on the sergeant who already has a power fist. The only case you'll ever use the bomb is against a rear armor 13+ vehicle, which basically means you're charging a land raider. The scouts should never be in a position where they want to do that - their job is to either assault and tie down a long-range shooting squad like Long Fangs or Devastators, or to blow up a troop transport, or maybe to take down a long-range vehicle like a predator. Let something else worry about the land raider.

So what does this all point to? Primarily, some kind of land raider would be a strong addition to the army. It gives your terminators a ride, and gives you something to shield the razorbacks. The best place to get those points is going to probably be to swap out the MM speeders. To get yourself some melta fire back, change over one of the tactical squads from flamer/combi-flamer to melta/combi-melta, and throw the MM upgrade onto the land raider. You've also lost a lot of template weaponry in this exchange, making a Land Raider Redeemer a great choice for those terminators. Downgrade the scouts' storm speeder to have a heavy flamer instead of a multi-melta; if you don't have to roll to hit, who cares that the driver can't aim? Since the redeemer won't fit your full squad plus a librarian, put the librarian in power armor, trade gate for avenger, and put him with the flamer tactical squad - you're now looking at a team that can drop three templates at once.

Making those changes, here's one list option:
HQ: Space Marine Libarian (100)
-> Null Zone, Avenger
Elite: 6x Terminator Assault Squad (505)
-> 4x TH/SS, 2x LC's
-> Land Raider Redeemer w/ Extra Armor, Multi-Melta
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (270)
-> Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (265)
-> Flamer, Lascannon, Combi-Flamer
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
Troop: 5x Scout Squad (100)
-> 4x CCW/Bolt Pistol, Sergeant w/ Shotgun/Power Fist
FA: Land Speeder Storm (60)
-> Heavy Flamer
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
Total: 1480 points

The goal is simple: as mentioned, the terminators ride in front, with the razorbacks directly behind it. Rotate them so the guns hang off behind the 'raider, allowing you to move 6" with the whole block, keeping the razorbacks in cover the whole time. Don't forget to use your smoke if the land raider will be out in the open! The storm speeder either alpha strikes to lock something down, or floats behind the land raider/rhino blob. The typhoons can either move up with the other vehicles, claiming cover by staying behind the razorbacks (note: ensure they're on the shorter of the two flying base stands; if you used the tall ones, it may be hard to get a cover save from all angles. That razorback gun should still be enough, though) or they can find cover elsewhere on the field and just fire from way in back. Either way, these NEED cover every turn. And then of course the two lascannon combat squads set up on your objective(s). If you can set up a crossfire, even better.

If you're willing to play a riskier game with two scoring units (which I don't recommend), here's an alternative build that beefs up the terminator death star a bit, and plays to your "move 6" and fire" plan. It will probably do more damage, but you will have a harder time in objective missions. This is a 1510 list, so you'll need to trim 10 points from somewhere - maybe downgrade a lascannon or pull the combi-flamer, or replace the vindicator with a predator.

HQ: Space Marine Libarian (125)
-> Null Zone, Vortex of Doom
Elite: 7x Terminator Assault Squad (555)
-> 5x TH/SS, 2x LC's
-> Land Raider Crusader w/ Extra Armor, Multi-Melta
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (270)
-> Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (265)
-> Flamer, Lascannon, Combi-Flamer
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
HS: Vindicator (115)
Total: 1510 points

This list uses a very similar strategy - just with an extra AV13 wall from the vindicator. Losing the scouts doesn't hurt too much, and the terminators are a scarier force to be reckoned with. The librarian being back in terminator armor means he's in the land raider. Vortex of Doom is Heavy 1, but remember that terminator armor gives you the Relentless rule. Just be careful about hitting your own terminators if you miscast!

I hope that helps; good luck with the list!

[Uncleleng]

For Tynskel and Tyrsday:

Thx for your answers but i'm not a big fan o fbolters terminator squads, the lack of a good Invulnerable Save make them an easy prey for plasma weapon, i usualy play against IG veteran based and dual lash Chaos marines whit 4 or 5 obliterators so i'm stuck whit assault terminators


You actually have a lot of heavy anti-tank in the list; 4 lascannons, 4 missiles, and 4 multi-melta's is plenty for 1500. One problem you're probably running into is that all of your vehicles are very vulnerable. Those are some very expensive AV10/AV11 vehicles. I suspect the root of your problem isn't in having too few tank-destroying weapons, but in having very little survivability of your own.

Lascannon razorbacks can work, but they need to be in cover if you want to fire them with any sort of reliability. As things stand, your front line is going to be those razorbacks, and you'll often be reliant on getting them across the field to deliver the tactical marines to an objective. You need something with higher armor to sit in front of them and provide either cover or a complete LoS screen. Good choices are predators, vindicators, or a land raider. I also prefer las/plas razorbacks over TL lascannons, especially given that these will be moving toward objectives on the other side of the field and getting the plasma guns into range.

As already mentioned, those assault terminators are going to have a hard time actually launching an assault with gate - you can get them there, but then have to weather a storm of fire followed by potentially getting charged yourself. It's a durable squad so it may survive - but it is very unlikely to do enough damage to justify the cost after that. Solutions are to replace it with a squad of storm bolter terminators, where they can blink in and fire immediately, or give them a land raider as a transport instead.

Six land speeders is a bit overkill at this point cost. It's easy enough to get cover for the typhoon speeders, but the multi-melta gunboats will be more likely than not making a very expensive suicide trade - if you take down anything smaller than a land raider with those, they will not earn their points back. Your list is very light on melta weaponry without them however, so another solution will need to be used if they swap out.

The storm scouts are a fun gimmick. They work against certain armies, especially if you get to go first. However, the driver on the speeder is BS3 - banking on them to destroy a vehicle is setting yourself up for disappointment, and then the scouts being stuck out for return fire. Also, there's not much point to putting a meltabomb on the sergeant who already has a power fist. The only case you'll ever use the bomb is against a rear armor 13+ vehicle, which basically means you're charging a land raider. The scouts should never be in a position where they want to do that - their job is to either assault and tie down a long-range shooting squad like Long Fangs or Devastators, or to blow up a troop transport, or maybe to take down a long-range vehicle like a predator. Let something else worry about the land raider.

So what does this all point to? Primarily, some kind of land raider would be a strong addition to the army. It gives your terminators a ride, and gives you something to shield the razorbacks. The best place to get those points is going to probably be to swap out the MM speeders. To get yourself some melta fire back, change over one of the tactical squads from flamer/combi-flamer to melta/combi-melta, and throw the MM upgrade onto the land raider. You've also lost a lot of template weaponry in this exchange, making a Land Raider Redeemer a great choice for those terminators. Downgrade the scouts' storm speeder to have a heavy flamer instead of a multi-melta; if you don't have to roll to hit, who cares that the driver can't aim? Since the redeemer won't fit your full squad plus a librarian, put the librarian in power armor, trade gate for avenger, and put him with the flamer tactical squad - you're now looking at a team that can drop three templates at once.

Making those changes, here's one list option:
HQ: Space Marine Libarian (100)
-> Null Zone, Avenger
Elite: 6x Terminator Assault Squad (505)
-> 4x TH/SS, 2x LC's
-> Land Raider Redeemer w/ Extra Armor, Multi-Melta
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (270)
-> Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (265)
-> Flamer, Lascannon, Combi-Flamer
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
Troop: 5x Scout Squad (100)
-> 4x CCW/Bolt Pistol, Sergeant w/ Shotgun/Power Fist
FA: Land Speeder Storm (60)
-> Heavy Flamer
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
Total: 1480 points

The goal is simple: as mentioned, the terminators ride in front, with the razorbacks directly behind it. Rotate them so the guns hang off behind the 'raider, allowing you to move 6" with the whole block, keeping the razorbacks in cover the whole time. Don't forget to use your smoke if the land raider will be out in the open! The storm speeder either alpha strikes to lock something down, or floats behind the land raider/rhino blob. The typhoons can either move up with the other vehicles, claiming cover by staying behind the razorbacks (note: ensure they're on the shorter of the two flying base stands; if you used the tall ones, it may be hard to get a cover save from all angles. That razorback gun should still be enough, though) or they can find cover elsewhere on the field and just fire from way in back. Either way, these NEED cover every turn. And then of course the two lascannon combat squads set up on your objective(s). If you can set up a crossfire, even better.

If you're willing to play a riskier game with two scoring units (which I don't recommend), here's an alternative build that beefs up the terminator death star a bit, and plays to your "move 6" and fire" plan. It will probably do more damage, but you will have a harder time in objective missions. This is a 1510 list, so you'll need to trim 10 points from somewhere - maybe downgrade a lascannon or pull the combi-flamer, or replace the vindicator with a predator.

HQ: Space Marine Libarian (125)
-> Null Zone, Vortex of Doom
Elite: 7x Terminator Assault Squad (555)
-> 5x TH/SS, 2x LC's
-> Land Raider Crusader w/ Extra Armor, Multi-Melta
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (270)
-> Meltagun, Lascannon, Combi-Melta
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
Troop: 10x Tactical Squad (265)
-> Flamer, Lascannon, Combi-Flamer
-> Razorback w/ Lascannon & TL Plasmagun
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
FA: Land Speeder Typhoon (90)
-> Typhoon Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter
HS: Vindicator (115)
Total: 1510 points

This list uses a very similar strategy - just with an extra AV13 wall from the vindicator. Losing the scouts doesn't hurt too much, and the terminators are a scarier force to be reckoned with. The librarian being back in terminator armor means he's in the land raider. Vortex of Doom is Heavy 1, but remember that terminator armor gives you the Relentless rule. Just be careful about hitting your own terminators if you miscast!

I hope that helps; good luck with the list!

Thx for your time :), you made a good analisys and your solutions are really interesting, especially the first one, 5 scoring unit is a must imho so i'll give it a try for sure. What about if i'll use the 20 free point to change the Thypoon/bolter Speeders in Thypoon/melta?

[Splug]

Thx for your time :), you made a good analisys and your solutions are really interesting, especially the first one, 5 scoring unit is a must imho so i'll give it a try for sure. What about if i'll use the 20 free point to change the Thypoon/bolter Speeders in Thypoon/melta?The point to remember with those speeders is that if you move in close with them, assume you are taking your last shot. The best thing I've found about 90 point typhoon speeders is their range, and their ability to make a 24" dive on turn 6 to contest objectives. Another fun point about the bolter/missile speeders is they can move 12", fire the heavy bolter, and then use the frag missiles as a S4 defensive weapon on the same target - making for some swift-moving anti-infantry fire. A melta/missile combo would be better anti-tank; it just comes down to whether you want to specialize the vehicles as anti-tank or stay a bit more generalized with strong anti-infantry fire as well. You've got the 20 points free either way, and are prone to struggle against land raiders due to the relatively few melta weapons, so that makes sense to me.